Mazrim Taim

[ashan]

Mazrim Taim is Demandred

1. "Let the lord of chaos rule"

2. lack of Demandred's appearance yet however much of taim

3. Just have that feeling

[Silver]

I was a bit iffy for the first 2 but the 3rd point really sold me!

[trench]

Your far from the first person to make that guess. But durring the cleansing demandred did not recognize any of the Asha'man. Also RJ did confirm Taim is not Demandred. I definetly think he is a puppet for the Chosen though.

[OptimusPrime]

Hes not Demandred, hes Moridin. For all the same reasons and a million more

[Haran]

Hes not Demandred, hes Moridin. For all the same reasons and a million more

 

He could be except for the fact that Taim is clearly Logains porblem while Moridin is Rands.

[OptimusPrime]

Hes not Demandred, hes Moridin. For all the same reasons and a million more

 

He could be except for the fact that Taim is clearly Logains porblem while Moridin is Rands.

 

Or maybe its one guy and he is everyones problem

[blazetheearth]

Mazrim Taim is Demandred

1. "Let the lord of chaos rule"

2. lack of Demandred's appearance yet however much of taim

3. Just have that feeling

 

I just have a couple of things to point out:

 

1)

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

 

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?

RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem.

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NYC 7 January 2003 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

 

RJ: No, that is totally bogus.

 

and 2) Note: The following conversation takes place in between the publishing of CoT and KoD. Therefore, we can safely say that any character with screen time before KoD can be ruled out.

Okay, fine. If Demandred isn't Taim, then who is he, smartypants?

We don't know.

 

There have been a lot of names bandied about as possibilties; Bashere, Masema, and the mysterious Taraboner seen in Arymilla's entourage outside Caemlyn [COT: 15, Gathering Darkness, 371] seem to be the most popular.

 

All of these can be debunked or contested for various reasons, but it's not necessary to do so:

 

Q:

"Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?"

 

A:

"No." (I asked twice to make sure.)

 

[Michael Martin, Dayton OH signing]

 

So, if Demandred is disguising himself as someone, it's not someone we've met in books 1-10. He might appear in either Knife of Dreams or The Gathering Storm, but hasn't done something suspicious enough to put us on his trail.

 

3) Your feelings aside, I think I will trust the author on the subject.

 

That's it, I have no other comment as others have said it all.

[mb]

Taim cannot be Moridin either. Earliest for Moridin's resurrection seems to be Crown of Swords. Taim appeared in Lord of Chaos and was mentioned in Great Hunt & Shadow Rising.

[moratcorlm]

There's really no reason Moridin couldn't have been alive during Lord of Chaos. And the fact that Mazrim Taim was around earlier in the series before breaking free and disappearing certainly doesn't rule out his having been quietly killed and his likeness being used in an Illusion.

 

That said, I don't think that Taim is Moridin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I was extremely anti- Taim=Moridin.

 

now I have a suspicion that he may well be.

 

1. Logain v Taim isnt a forgone conclusion. We only know Logain will gain some kind of glory. It DOES indicate a Taim Logain showdown, but it is far from certain.

 

2. I still hesitate to believe Taim= Moridin, although I am certainly leaning that way. However, I am 100% sure that Taim is at least Moridin's wingman.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim cannot be Moridin either. Earliest for Moridin's resurrection seems to be Crown of Swords. Taim appeared in Lord of Chaos and was mentioned in Great Hunt & Shadow Rising.

 

See thats just the thing. I propose that Taim was himself but was taken to Shayol Ghul, where he died and Ishamaels soul was put in his body, and then not long after that Ishamael went to see Rand. Every returned Forsaken comes back in someones body that already existed somewhere, they dont make the bodies; the fact that we have heard of Taim previously does NOT rule out the possibility. I think we havent seen the real Taim ever on screen, or at best, the switch was made in Lord of Chaos. I am positive we never saw Taim be himself though, for many reasons. The first being his pleasure at enraging Bashere right at the start.

 

There's really no reason Moridin couldn't have been alive during Lord of Chaos.

 

The connection between Rand and Moridin was formed in Lord of Chaos. Thus theres no reason to think Moridin WASNT alive in Lord of Chaos. Glad you picked up on the thing about Taim being quietly offed though

 

I was extremely anti- Taim=Moridin.

 

now I have a suspicion that he may well be

 

:biggrin: :biggrin:

[capuga]

Hes not Demandred, hes Moridin. For all the same reasons and a million more

 

If you are reading the spoiler threads you would probably be interested in a discussion we had regarding this in the Black Tower thread (I believe most of it is around pages 13-19). Those of us arguing against Taim=Moridin may not change your mind but hopefully you will understand our points and see that there are several strikes against the Taim=Moridin theory. Plus those debates are always fun to read.

[OptimusPrime]

Hes not Demandred, hes Moridin. For all the same reasons and a million more

 

If you are reading the spoiler threads you would probably be interested in a discussion we had regarding this in the Black Tower thread (I believe most of it is around pages 13-19). Those of us arguing against Taim=Moridin may not change your mind but hopefully you will understand our points and see that there are several strikes against the Taim=Moridin theory. Plus those debates are always fun to read.

 

They are indeed fun, I'll have a look later! Nice one. I do think very strongly that he is, but I think sometimes I portray a sense of not willing to acknowledge other possibilities, so, apologies to anyone who gets that idea. I could very well be wrong, I know, because a lot of what I include in the theory is speculation and its quite a long shot. But yeah, I'll have a look over there soon, thanks.

[mb]

If Moridin had been around in Lord of Chaos or earlier, he would likely have known the truth of Sammael's supposed treaty.

 

Taim's scenes up through Gathering Storm do not tell whether Taim knew Illusion or not.

Taim appears to Rand near the end of Path of Daggers. During that scene, Rand felt just Saidin from others.

 

There is also the "Kill Rand" order.

[Mr Ares]

While I accept that there are some suggestive points that might be taken to indicate that Taim is Moiridin, that theory has some real problems that have yet to be answered satisfactorily. For example, while Taim doesn't spend all of his time at the BT, he would appear to spend the majority of it there. Moridin does spend most of his time in the Blight, and is more likely to send Moggy or Cyndane to the south to run errands than to go himself. Than there is the matter of the orders given to the rogue Asha'man in WH - Taim wanted Rand dead, Moridin permitted killing Rand but put the focus on stealing his things. Is this a heist or an assassination? There are other points as well, but unless and until someone can answer them to my satisfaction, I'm going to have to go with the Taim is Taim is Taim camp, and say that he is possibly a Dreadlord trained by Moridin, but he isn't the man himself.

[OptimusPrime]

While I accept that there are some suggestive points that might be taken to indicate that Taim is Moiridin, that theory has some real problems that have yet to be answered satisfactorily. For example, while Taim doesn't spend all of his time at the BT, he would appear to spend the majority of it there. Moridin does spend most of his time in the Blight, and is more likely to send Moggy or Cyndane to the south to run errands than to go himself. Than there is the matter of the orders given to the rogue Asha'man in WH - Taim wanted Rand dead, Moridin permitted killing Rand but put the focus on stealing his things. Is this a heist or an assassination? There are other points as well, but unless and until someone can answer them to my satisfaction, I'm going to have to go with the Taim is Taim is Taim camp, and say that he is possibly a Dreadlord trained by Moridin, but he isn't the man himself.

 

About Moridin spending most of his time in the Blight, there is no reasonable reason to think he spends MOST of his time there. Yes, obviously he spends some, but how much exactly we dont know. I think Taims private classes are quite possibly sessions where Demandred is involved. Ive said before, that I think only the other Forsaken know Taim is Moridin, the chirade is there for the Ashaman too so in these private classes Taim is seen to be sent away by Demandred. They think they move up the food chain, "Taim" Travels out of the Black Tower and then undertakes Nae'blis duties in the Blight and such. We have no way to gauge how much time either Taim or Moridin spend in their favorite places. Not that that means anything by itself, of course.

[Barid Bel Medar]

While I accept that there are some suggestive points that might be taken to indicate that Taim is Moiridin, that theory has some real problems that have yet to be answered satisfactorily. For example, while Taim doesn't spend all of his time at the BT, he would appear to spend the majority of it there. Moridin does spend most of his time in the Blight, and is more likely to send Moggy or Cyndane to the south to run errands than to go himself. Than there is the matter of the orders given to the rogue Asha'man in WH - Taim wanted Rand dead, Moridin permitted killing Rand but put the focus on stealing his things. Is this a heist or an assassination? There are other points as well, but unless and until someone can answer them to my satisfaction, I'm going to have to go with the Taim is Taim is Taim camp, and say that he is possibly a Dreadlord trained by Moridin, but he isn't the man himself.

 

About Moridin spending most of his time in the Blight, there is no reasonable reason to think he spends MOST of his time there. Yes, obviously he spends some, but how much exactly we dont know. I think Taims private classes are quite possibly sessions where Demandred is involved. Ive said before, that I think only the other Forsaken know Taim is Moridin, the chirade is there for the Ashaman too so in these private classes Taim is seen to be sent away by Demandred. They think they move up the food chain, "Taim" Travels out of the Black Tower and then undertakes Nae'blis duties in the Blight and such. We have no way to gauge how much time either Taim or Moridin spend in their favorite places. Not that that means anything by itself, of course.

 

 

Moridin DOES spend most of the time in the Blight. He has his fortress, which is always where the Forsaken meet and his servants travel from. Graendal in tGS prologue admits that Moridin spends his time gathering in the Blight and rarely attends to matters in the south (of the blight).

 

While I, as above stated, consider it a possibility that Taim = Moridin (hop over to the spoilers board or PM me Drekka, so we can disucss some ToM) I am still in favor of taim= Taim, although again, as stated above, I am now 100% certain Taim is connected to Moridin in some way.

[moratcorlm]

Moridin DOES spend most of the time in the Blight. He has his fortress, which is always where the Forsaken meet and his servants travel from. Graendal in tGS prologue admits that Moridin spends his time gathering in the Blight and rarely attends to matters in the south (of the blight).

She thinks it. And considering that she had not known of Moridin's fortress before being summoned there, it seems unlikely she has informants among his servants, which makes this essentially a guess.

 

Most likely accurate–I agree that Taim is simply Taim–but she's been wrong before.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moridin DOES spend most of the time in the Blight. He has his fortress, which is always where the Forsaken meet and his servants travel from. Graendal in tGS prologue admits that Moridin spends his time gathering in the Blight and rarely attends to matters in the south (of the blight).

She thinks it. And considering that she had not known of Moridin's fortress before being summoned there, it seems unlikely she has informants among his servants, which makes this essentially a guess.

 

Most likely accurate–I agree that Taim is simply Taim–but she's been wrong before.

 

Your right, and I wasnt basing it solely on Graendal's comment. Its just that we hardly see Moridin anywhere else. He has a fortress in the Blight where he conducts all of the meetings with servants and a bunch of ter-angreal and shadow prophecies.

 

Taim is the leader of the Black Tower, and from what we know, he spends almost all of his time there and makes at least semi-regular appearances. It just doesnt seem likely that Moridin is both in a fortress in the blight, the Nae'blis who basically recieves the DO's plans and orders and then informs the others while running a town full of 500+ channelers converting them to DFs.

I mean, Moridin is pretty cool, but it seems hard to believe that he could be doing both at the same time. That would take an enormous effort.

 

Also, all of Graendal's other "guessess" on the other Forsaken's whereabouts were correct, why would Moridin's be any different.