Discuss Graendal

[Plato]

I think Graendal could easily be redeemed if she disguied herself, and inverted the weaves, and infiltrated Rand's group, or Tuon's, and began manipulating leaders personally. I mean, damane and Aes Sedai can't detect inverted compulsion can they? You could basically convert any leader(s) you want to your cause without a worry in the world of being detected. And if you think someone is onto you, kill them...

[haloun]

Then surely, her destruction was the responsibility of the person giving that order?

The Do you mean ? if you go on that Road the creator is responsible for everything happening, I mean bad thing , cause he created the pattern .

Utterly it was Graendal failure because she lost control of her tool , she knew tanks to Morridin that Perrin did walk the wolf dream.

 

I wonder if Egwene will tanks Perrin for that

 

That's my point, really. Graendal's task was to destroy Egwene, but one can't blame the giver of the order, or the problem with the dreamspike, for her failure to do so; only Mesanna's failure of judgment. She could have backed off and waited for a better opportunity. However, I don't think that would have helped; the outcome was inevitable given Eg's chosen defence.

 

graendels task was perrin NOT egwene. mesaana was after eggy

[Agelmar]

I want to know how Isam became so badass in the dream. Ishy was definitely bound for long portion of Isam's life, and I don't see him being a Zen teacher like Hopper, so what gives?

 

Isam is there in the flesh, which makes him much, much stronger (see Moghedien's comment regarding Rand and Rahvin).

[FarShainMael]

Then surely, her destruction was the responsibility of the person giving that order?

The Do you mean ? if you go on that Road the creator is responsible for everything happening, I mean bad thing , cause he created the pattern .

Utterly it was Graendal failure because she lost control of her tool , she knew tanks to Morridin that Perrin did walk the wolf dream.

 

I wonder if Egwene will tanks Perrin for that

 

That's my point, really. Graendal's Mesaana's task was to destroy Egwene, but one can't blame the giver of the order, or the problem with the dreamspike, for her failure to do so; only Mesanna's failure of judgment. She could have backed off and waited for a better opportunity. However, I don't think that would have helped; the outcome was inevitable given Eg's chosen defence.

 

graendels task was perrin NOT egwene. mesaana was after eggy

 

Ooops, typo

[Val Mickey]

I guess I'll ask this here.

 

Who taught Delana compulsion and why didn't she use it before? (Or has she? hmm..)

 

And why didn't Halima compulse Anaiya or Kairen? For a scholar who cheated a casino that is remarkably dumb.

[moratcorlm]

Who taught Delana compulsion and why didn't she use it before?

Nobody knows. My best answer would be perhaps that the Black Ajah began some kind of training program which Verin never got the benefits of, being out of the Tower for the entire series after the Forsaken get free except for a few days in TDR. Maybe the Dark One broadcasts an educational TV channel in Tel'aran'rhiod.

And why didn't Halima compulse Anaiya or Kairen? For a scholar who cheated a casino that is remarkably dumb.

Perhaps s/he simply lacked skill with the weave; Moghedien regrets in ACOS30 that she had no great facility with it, and Balthamel seems to have been by far the laziest of the Forsaken. Still, you're right that even an untrained (if highly focused) channeler like Verin can implant subtle suggestions (like leave Halima alone, I've learned all I can) if not more powerful ones, so perhaps the justification is just that it adds a little chaos to the world. Though in that case she really should have murdered some other random sister as well to stop people like Romanda from seeing a pattern.

[Sharaman]

And why didn't Halima compulse Anaiya or Kairen? For a scholar who cheated a casino that is remarkably dumb.Perhaps s/he simply lacked skill with the weave; Moghedien regrets in ACOS30 that she had no great facility with it, and Balthamel seems to have been by far the laziest of the Forsaken. Still, you're right that even an untrained (if highly focused) channeler like Verin can implant subtle suggestions (like leave Halima alone, I've learned all I can) if not more powerful ones, so perhaps the justification is just that it adds a little chaos to the world. Though in that case she really should have murdered some other random sister as well to stop people like Romanda from seeing a pattern.

Halima did a complex compulsion weave on demand on Ramshalam so she/he isn't lacking in that skill.

Probably Compulsion of the order required to make Anaiya / Kairen forget the 3 Blues connections would have turned them into drooling idiots, which may have sparked off more suspicions than killing her. A few more random murders would indeed have fogged the connection better.

[moratcorlm]

Halima did a complex compulsion weave on demand on Ramshalam so she/he isn't lacking in that skill.

Yes, you're right... though Graendal shouldn't have been able to tell; hopefully that's changed in future printings. Your explanation that Halima can't use strong Compulsion without breaking the subject's mind makes as much sense as anything to me... though in a way that's contradicted by Ramshalan as well, since he was perfectly able to follow Delana's orders.

 

It's worth noting that Aran'gar apparently didn't trust herself to tinker with Egwene's mind beyond fuzzing her Dreams.

[FarShainMael]

Halima did a complex compulsion weave on demand on Ramshalam so she/he isn't lacking in that skill.

Yes, you're right... though Graendal shouldn't have been able to tell; hopefully that's changed in future printings. Your explanation that Halima can't use strong Compulsion without breaking the subject's mind makes as much sense as anything to me... though in a way that's contradicted by Ramshalan as well, since he was perfectly able to follow Delana's orders.

 

It's worth noting that Aran'gar apparently didn't trust herself to tinker with Egwene's mind beyond fuzzing her Dreams.

 

In ToM Prologue, p25, Graendal comments inwardly that 'the GL had not been pleased with {Aran'gar} for losing control of Egwene al'Vere. That suggests she did more than just fuzz her dreams.. but that's one for the Egwene thread, and I think it's already been mentioned there, though you'd have to dig for it.

[moratcorlm]

Right, but the answers Jordan/Sanderson/Maria have given to questions about Egwene's changes of mind have been firmly on the anti-Compulsion side of the fence. I suspect Aran'gar had simply used Sheriam and the Blacks in the Hall to keep chaos simmering, and quite successfully until Egwene paddled out in the Erinin.

[blazetheearth]

And why didn't Halima compulse Anaiya or Kairen? For a scholar who cheated a casino that is remarkably dumb.

 

One major function of the murders of those two was to try to drive a wedge between the BT/AM and the SAS. Halima didn't want men who could channel wandering around the camp, possibly seeing/sensing her weaves. Remember that instead of just holding them quickly w/ Air and stabbing them, both were killed with the power in a way that nothing but the OP could have done it. And then some SAS tested for residue and found saidin was used which caused worry among the Sisters that either Logain had come back, or that an Asha'man had infiltrated the camp.

 

Compulsion would not have helped serve these objectives.

[mbuehner]

The whole dreamspike deal is also very problematic, IMHO. OK, it may be that only wolfbrothers could actually pass the dome. However, as seen with Perrin, upon falling asleep, he could enter the dreamworld outside the dome and not be limited by it. Doesn't it mean, that dreamwalkers could chose to enter the dream inside the dome? And once there, find and destroy the dreamspike. How on earth could something like that have been a working protection in the War of Power, when competent dreamwalkers were commonplace?

 

And why on earth would Graendal need to use the dreamspike in the first place, when killing Perrin's few channelers (who weren't ta'veren protected by the Pattern) or even just the 2 Asha'man would have denied him Travelling much more effectively.

 

I mean, it is clear that Graendal's plan had to fail, but why not present us with a plan that looked reasonable and actually had a snowflake in hell's chance of working?

 

- If the spike existed in the real world, a channeler could travel outside the dome, walk through, find and destroy the dreamspike too. Are you any worse off? You're probably better off because you can leave experienced dream walkers to guard your dreamspike (ones who couldn't channel would do you no good awake anyway), allowing your channelers to go on the offensive instead of sitting around guarding a dreamspike. I don't see any weakness that isn't a general weakness of simply having something to guard.

 

- There is little reason to believe Graendal would choose to go battle 2 Asha'man directly, its just not her way. Moreover there were a number of female channelers present, not to mention an army. A circle would defeat her easily, and a spear in the back is always a risk too.

Otoh, there is good reason to believe that this plan would have failed regardless, if ta'veren with ta'veren in play, but from Graendal's POV Perrin's death was assured (by prophecy), so she just had to engineer it in a way guaranteeing she herself wasn't collateral damage (prophecy didn't mention who might die in the attempt). If self-preservation is a virtue, she had as good a plan as any.

[Wheel of Thyme]

FarShainMael, Graendal gets the blame for Messana's destruction because it was Graendal who lost that dreamspike; Perrin had taken it from Slayer and plunked it over Tar Valon. Thus, Messanna could not Travel away from there, and had to fight her battle with Egwene THERE instead of where ever it was she preffered to fight.

 

So...we KNOW know Graendal killed Asmodean. I want to know HOW she knew he would enter THAT closet. Did she just think "I will hide in a random closet all day in the off chance that if Asmodean comes here for a drink, I can kill him" And if so, she had to kill EVERYONE who opened the pantry, or else they'd have mentioned to someone that there was a hot babe in the closet.

 

Then again, this IS the Wheel of Time, where lack of communication between characters seems to be as much a law of nature as that of gravity.

[capuga]

And why didn't Halima compulse Anaiya or Kairen? For a scholar who cheated a casino that is remarkably dumb.

 

One major function of the murders of those two was to try to drive a wedge between the BT/AM and the SAS. Halima didn't want men who could channel wandering around the camp, possibly seeing/sensing her weaves. Remember that instead of just holding them quickly w/ Air and stabbing them, both were killed with the power in a way that nothing but the OP could have done it. And then some SAS tested for residue and found saidin was used which caused worry among the Sisters that either Logain had come back, or that an Asha'man had infiltrated the camp.

 

Compulsion would not have helped serve these objectives.

 

Actually the reason Halima killed Anaiya and Kairen was to maintain her cover. They were both friends with Cabriana Mercandes (sp?) who Halima claimed to have known. She killed them so they wouldn't uncover her lie. In fact, it is this association that Romanda puzzled together and caused her to order for Halima's arrest.

 

I'm not sure Halima expected or cared that her actions would cause fear and suspicion from the camp Aes Sedai towards the Asha'man (although from her POV this would certainly be a positive side-effect).

[capuga]

FarShainMael, Graendal gets the blame for Messana's destruction because it was Graendal who lost that dreamspike; Perrin had taken it from Slayer and plunked it over Tar Valon. Thus, Messanna could not Travel away from there, and had to fight her battle with Egwene THERE instead of where ever it was she preffered to fight.

 

So...we KNOW know Graendal killed Asmodean. I want to know HOW she knew he would enter THAT closet. Did she just think "I will hide in a random closet all day in the off chance that if Asmodean comes here for a drink, I can kill him" And if so, she had to kill EVERYONE who opened the pantry, or else they'd have mentioned to someone that there was a hot babe in the closet.

 

Then again, this IS the Wheel of Time, where lack of communication between characters seems to be as much a law of nature as that of gravity.

 

We don't know that she was actually waiting for him specifically. My impression was that she was in the palace for other reasons and Asmo just happened to bump into her. Kinda a wrong time, wrong place kind of thing. Also, Asmo was looking for a closet with wine in it, that doesn't mean that the door he opened actually was a closet. He didn't know the palace very well.

[wpflug]

Question:

 

FarShainMael, Graendal gets the blame for Messana's destruction because it was Graendal who lost that dreamspike; Perrin had taken it from Slayer and plunked it over Tar Valon. Thus, Messanna could not Travel away from there, and had to fight her battle with Egwene THERE instead of where ever it was she preffered to fight.

 

So...we KNOW know Graendal killed Asmodean. I want to know HOW she knew he would enter THAT closet. Did she just think "I will hide in a random closet all day in the off chance that if Asmodean comes here for a drink, I can kill him" And if so, she had to kill EVERYONE who opened the pantry, or else they'd have mentioned to someone that there was a hot babe in the closet.

 

Then again, this IS the Wheel of Time, where lack of communication between characters seems to be as much a law of nature as that of gravity.

 

Answer:

 

I also asked about how asmodean was killed now that we know graendal was «*responsible*» for his death. Brandon said that when he arrived at Harriet's and asked to see the ending and got the pile of robert jordan's notes including the ending, on top of that pile was a message from a fan in the form of a dialogue between a sherlock holmes character and a watson character with a note from RJ saying «*this is right*». Emily asked if it was from Matt Hatch and brandon didn't think it was. He said that he can probably give send me that message so we know exactly what RJ said «*this is right*» to.

 

This is apparently all of the information that is available from RJ himself about the actual method of asmodean's murder. In Brandon's vision of the story, he imagines Graendal killed asmodean (did the deed herself) with balefire, but apparently this is not in the notes. So its possible that it could have been done by another kind of weave and we are free to speculate on that.

 

Very nicely done. Thanks for the report. Those interested in the Sherlock Holmes/Watson parody might find this link an interesting read (I know I did when it first came out lo these many years ago).

 

Sherlock Holmes Examines the Death of Asmodean

 

My guess is that this is the one that RJ's note refers to.

[FarShainMael]

FarShainMael, Graendal gets the blame for Messana's destruction because it was Graendal who lost that dreamspike; Perrin had taken it from Slayer and plunked it over Tar Valon. Thus, Messanna could not Travel away from there, and had to fight her battle with Egwene THERE instead of where ever it was she preffered to fight.

 

But didn't Perrin destroy Slayer's dreamspike, by dropping it into a nightmare-Dragonmount? Or am I just confusing the timeline?

[Mystraka]

FarShainMael, Graendal gets the blame for Messana's destruction because it was Graendal who lost that dreamspike; Perrin had taken it from Slayer and plunked it over Tar Valon. Thus, Messanna could not Travel away from there, and had to fight her battle with Egwene THERE instead of where ever it was she preffered to fight.

 

But didn't Perrin destroy Slayer's dreamspike, by dropping it into a nightmare-Dragonmount? Or am I just confusing the timeline?

 

 

That part of the timeline is pretty straightforward, as both cconflicts (Perrin/Slayer and Eggy/Mesanna+BA) are raging in the same chapter. It switches POV every 10ish paragraphs.

 

Yes Perrin destroys the Dreamspike, and yes it was because Slayer underestimated him, and yes that blame falls onto Graendal due to the plan being of her design.

[FarShainMael]

I'll have to read that bit again, obviously. Slowly. The second dreamspike is at the BT, right? That's the bit that was confusing me. It is not there in 'Working leather', TOM46, which is some chapters after the battle at the WT in which Mesaana is broken (TOM39). It begins to make its presence felt in 'Gateways', TOM53.

[moratcorlm]

In Chapter 38, Egwene defeats Mesaana immediately before Perrin destroys the dreamspike.

 

"Working Leather" was some 50 days before that, possibly the first event to happen chronologically in TOM, and the events at the Black Tower in TOM53 and TOM56 are likely several weeks before the battle in TAR as well.

[FarShainMael]

Oh good grief.

[Val Mickey]

Somebody should start a Timeline thread. Then we can all argue about it for a 100 pages.

[stoneface]

I have been mulling over the Delana/Halima/Graendal scene in the prologue, and it still doesn't make sense. It seems woven out of a mish-mash.

 

The events don't mesh with the expected behavior of the characters, particularly Graendal. I could see Delana or Halima using Compulsion either w/o Graendal's input, or as a teaching moment (or a lazy moment), or as catching a glimmer of Rand's plot beforehand. But for Graendal to pass on the chance to Compulse a victim on only a whim? It doesn't click like I would expect RJ's work to click, but it doesn't feel like Mistborn either. It comes across more like children's composite drawings (remember, one child draws the head, then folds the paper down so only the stub of the neck is visible for the next child to continue).

 

Did RJ put down some initial thoughts (on a bad day, which he had plenty of)? Was Brandon in too much of a hurry to get it right? We may never hear the full story, but I will stick with my perception: It just feels like a mistake, a jumble. Brandon has indicated that RJ had some contradictory events in some of his notes, presumably alternates that would have been sorted out. This may have been one of RJ's preliminary ideas, but possibly without an alternate; it was written into the story.

 

Speculation, to be sure...

[plague fiend]

What's the point of having her dodge death, yet again, in a wildly implausible manner, and then basically do nothing herself?

 

What was so "wildly implausible" about it?

 

To begin with, Graendal would not pass on a chance to use Compultion on someone. She is a junky when it comes to these things. She gets off on it. RJ tells us of her personality and its quirks. The Forsaken are selfish and trust no one. Why wouldn't she extract any knowledge that the fat man may have concerning Rand and company, or look for it. She wouldn't want anyone to get that chance before she could. She is controlling to the point of fault.

[Sharaman]

It works - she put Ramshalam under Compulsion, learnt what he had to tell and then takes it off, and gets someone else to put it on, when she thinks of Nyn.

The key factor that made me realise Graendal was likely still alive when I read TGS was simple - she knew Ramshalam had come from an open Gate within walking distance of her castle. She knew Rand could walk into her domain at an instant's notice.

Yet she apparently did nothing and sent nobody to monitor the Gate.

Nor did she apparently send anybody to shadow Ramshalam back

That didn't gell.