The Seals

[Luckers]

Go.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I think when Rand pulls them out they will already be broken.

 

Also on a side note i dont think Rand will reseal the bore at all. i think he'll end up having to defeat the DO rather than reseal.

[fborch]

I just hope the move to break them won't be controversial enough among his followers to bring forth a second splitting of male/female channelers, like it happened in the AoL, with Latra Posae.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I just hope the move to break them won't be controversial enough among his followers to bring forth a second splitting of male/female channelers, like it happened in the AoL, with Latra Posae.

 

That split still exists really, i mean the white tower has pretty much opposed the Dragon Reborn every step of the way.

 

They didn't like him taking over kingdoms (he was saving them from forsaken)

 

They didn't like him bringing the aiel (required via prophecy)

 

They didn't like him roaming free without aes sedai (he already had aes sedai escorts) *They tried to kidnap him for this exact reason*

 

They didn't like him setting up the black tower *tried to destroy it by sending aes sedai*

 

Even when Egwene took over...

 

They Talk about bringing the Dragon Reborn to heel.

 

Egwene makes threats that if he doesn't submit her hand will be forced.

 

They Get all the leaders of Randland to go against his plan *regardless of what he intends*

 

How much more opposed do you need to be?

[nophone]

he doesn't have all the original seals. this book is going to be a tragedy, about love and heart ache as darkness swallows the light.

[Callern]

I think when Rand pulls them out they will already be broken.

 

Also on a side note i dont think Rand will reseal the bore at all. i think he'll end up having to defeat the DO rather than reseal.

It's a funny theory, but it does not match what i've understood about RJ's philosophy.

The DO can not be killed, that would ruin the balance of the world. If there is no evil, there can not be no good, simply because good IS because there is evil.

 

Why would I say this? Well, we have a number of examples for this balance in the series. The most seen example might be the ancient Aes Sedai symbol, which is almost identical with the Yin & Yang. Another example is the city of Aridhol, where what seemed so good, did not turn out to be good, because there was no longer a balance.

"The golden mean" from ancient greek philosophy, Yin & Yang and other philosophy from eastern cultures all refer to this balance between things, materalisic or in spirit.

Read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)

 

In short terms, what i believe tho, is that good is not good if there is no evil. Evil is not evil if there is no good. Destroying the DO could have the same outcome as losing the last battle.

So my theory is that the seals on the dark ones prison must be remade, if they don't, well, the world will fall.

 

Sorry for my bad english btw.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I think when Rand pulls them out they will already be broken.

 

Also on a side note i dont think Rand will reseal the bore at all. i think he'll end up having to defeat the DO rather than reseal.

It's a funny theory, but it does not match what i've understood about RJ's philosophy.

The DO can not be killed, that would ruin the balance of the world. If there is no evil, there can not be no good, simply because good IS becase there is evil.

 

Why would I say this? Well, we have a number of examples for this balance in the series. The most seen example might be the ancient Aes Sedai symbol, which is almost identical with the Yin & Yang. Another example is the city of Aridhol, where what seemed so good, did not turn out to be good, because there was no longer a balance.

"The golden mean" from ancient greek philosophy, Yin & Yang and other philosophy from eastern cultures all refer to this balance between things, materalisic or in spirit.

Read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy)

 

In short terms, what i believe tho, is that good is not good if there is no evil. Evil is not evil if there is no good. Destroying the DO could have the same outcome as losing the last battle.

So my theory is that the seals on the dark ones prison must be remade, if they don't, well, the world will fall.

 

Sorry for my bad english btw.

 

You english isn't that bad, it's actually pretty good :) I can see how the series would work well having the DO resealed, i guess im just going for my own theory atm :P hehe

 

Though i do think the seals when remade will need Egwene for the cuendular?, Nym and Moriaine for the use of Callandor and probs someone else to show how to focus the patches on the prison to the seals.

 

though if rand rebuild the jail from scratch i cant see there being new seals at all.

[didymos]

he doesn't have all the original seals. this book is going to be a tragedy, about love and heart ache as darkness swallows the light.

 

Uh, yeah, he does.

 

Seal 1: Found in tEotW, already broken

Seal 2: Bought by Domon, confiscated by Turak, broken at Falme

Seal 3: In Turak's collection. Broken at Falme

Seal 4: Found in Great Holding of Tear. Was last known to be in Cairhien with the stuff from Rhuidean, which has been stored and warded. Unbroken.

Seal 5: Found in Rhuidean. Was last known to be in Cairhien with the stuff from Rhuidean, which has been stored and warded. Unbroken.

Seal 6: Found in Tanchico. Broken on the road to Salidar.

Seal 7: Given to Rand by Taim. Unbroken.

 

Now, I suspect you think Seal 7 is a fake because Taim is teh EVIL, but there's no real point to faking one. The DO does not want them intact, and he knows that Rand will just have to break them anyway. In fact, the Prophecies of the Shadow say that Rand will be the one to free the Great Lord...so yeah.

 

 

And yes, the two in Cairhien could have been stolen, but we have absolutely no evidence that they were. All we do have is Demandred in KoD saying they should find them, and Moridin going "Sure, whatever. Go poke around if you want." Even if they were taken by some Forsaken, they're still just going to get broken, so who cares?

 

As for any of the others being counterfeits or whatever....got evidence?

 

this book is going to be a tragedy, about love and heart ache as darkness swallows the light.

 

And you know this how exactly?

[WhiskyJack]

Am I the only one who thinks the very idea of Rand facing DO is stupid? Unless Creator literally decides to fight along side Rand, how could Rand possibly face DO? All the power in the world is not going to give that thing even a scratch. Just look at how SH treats Chosen.

[fborch]

No mortal can or should be able to defeat the Dark One. The best they can hope for is a patching/sealing of the Bore. Defeating the Dark One would probably be as bad as letting him win, considering he is essential to everything, this being a world of opposites. Saidin/Saidar Man/woman creator/dark one etc.

[Omega]

I think Egwene and the others are letting fear cloud their judgment. In a way I can understand that, but if they would all stop and think for a moment, just how ineffective would it be to NOT break the seals?

 

I mean its like sewing a patch, over a patch. Stitching into ragged worn and torn edges of cloth, you're just creating inherent weakness. Better to clear the area. I'm no medic but I'm pretty sure they apply the same methodology to stitching wounds. This is just that, a wound in the pattern. I suppose they would never stitch a wound lol, but have none of the Aes Sedai taken up sewing either in their lifetimes? :P

[smileyman]

Herid Fel's scrap of paper is often used as arguments for Rand's breaking the seals, but there's another bit of information on that piece of paper that gets left off a great deal. Here's the whole quote "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build." Now clearing the rubble makes perfect sense but belief and order giving strength? It could be a metaphorical/philosophical type of thing, but Fel never struck me as that type of guy. However, it does sound an awful lot like the characteristics you need to win in T'A'R, which makes me think a large portion of the fight will be held there, or in a place similar--at least the most important parts of the fight.

[didymos]

It could be a metaphorical/philosophical type of thing, but Fel never struck me as that type of guy.

 

Herid Fel, the philosopher, never struck you as a philosophical type of guy?

 

(Yes, I know what you really meant there)

[smileyman]

It could be a metaphorical/philosophical type of thing, but Fel never struck me as that type of guy.

 

Herid Fel, the philosopher, never struck you as a philosophical type of guy?

 

(Yes, I know what you really meant there)

 

 

Thbbbbbtttt!

[nolirion]

he doesn't have all the original seals. this book is going to be a tragedy, about love and heart ache as darkness swallows the light.

 

And yes, the two in Cairhien could have been stolen, but we have absolutely no evidence that they were. All we do have is Demandred in KoD saying they should find them, and Moridin going "Sure, whatever. Go poke around if you want." Even if they were taken by some Forsaken, they're still just going to get broken, so who cares?

 

As for any of the others being counterfeits or whatever....got evidence?

 

 

In fact One is in bashere custody the of Dobraine and the other perhaps in Darlin .

Dobraine and Bashere where attack by greyman or simple rubber from the shadow since then we have few knowing of where they are

[AutomatedTeller]

Here's a question:

 

How, exactly, is Rand going to break the seals? Can he break them? Has anyone broken them, or do they just show up, broken? What is it that happens that causes them to break?

[JonathanEisfeld]

My theory is that Rand's proclamation to the whole world that he is going to break the seals is a ruse just to get them to unite for something, even if it against him, for the moment.

 

'He will break what must be broken" refers to Callandor and not the seals. He will break them at the right time, but it is in the breaking of Callandor that the Dark One will be defeated, perhaps when he himself indwells the sword through the flaw inside of it.

 

My hunch is that Callandor has a much bigger role to play than just a suped up sa'angrael at the Last Battle. The Dark One will guess that that is what Rand will try and will make himself present in the flaw within the sword, waiting for Rand and two of the most powerful women to use the sword, and then either take them captive, turn them to the dark, or destroy them. Likely one of the second two options. However, when the Dark One tries this, Rand will break Callandor and temporarily cast the Dark One from the pattern. This will set the stage for the seed-singing closure of the bore.

[mossman87]

The True Source needs repaired at Shayol Ghul. Go Go Gadget Saidin and Saidar.

[Vermillion]

Here's a question:

 

How, exactly, is Rand going to break the seals? Can he break them? Has anyone broken them, or do they just show up, broken? What is it that happens that causes them to break?

 

They are fragile and crumbling. Moiraine sliced one with a knife.

[WhiskyJack]

My theory is that Rand's proclamation to the whole world that he is going to break the seals is a ruse just to get them to unite for something, even if it against him, for the moment.

 

'He will break what must be broken" refers to Callandor and not the seals. He will break them at the right time, but it is in the breaking of Callandor that the Dark One will be defeated, perhaps when he himself indwells the sword through the flaw inside of it.

 

My hunch is that Callandor has a much bigger role to play than just a suped up sa'angrael at the Last Battle. The Dark One will guess that that is what Rand will try and will make himself present in the flaw within the sword, waiting for Rand and two of the most powerful women to use the sword, and then either take them captive, turn them to the dark, or destroy them. Likely one of the second two options. However, when the Dark One tries this, Rand will break Callandor and temporarily cast the Dark One from the pattern. This will set the stage for the seed-singing closure of the bore.

 

 

Every line in your post sounded like a joke. Good comedy I must say. I hope you were not serious..were you?

[Mats Spare Hat]

I always thought the seals, the disks, were physical indicators of prophetic events being fulfilled, instead of literally being the "actual" seals themselves. As to say even if Bela the horse had all the disks in a saddlebag, munching grass clippings, out of a bag on a boat, there's no loss because all they really do is point out to whomever takes a look that, hey, bad crap's on the way...sort of like pagers you get at some restaurants to let you know your table's ready. The disks don't have a real impact on events, or purpose, beyond telling you something's up.

 

I rationalize the use of cuendillar for the sake of durability over ages - you wouldn't want your physical indicators of incoming doom and gloom to be made out of toilet paper would you?

[nolirion]

My theory is that Rand's proclamation to the whole world that he is going to break the seals is a ruse just to get them to unite for something, even if it against him, for the moment.

 

'He will break what must be broken" refers to Callandor and not the seals. He will break them at the right time, but it is in the breaking of Callandor that the Dark One will be defeated, perhaps when he himself indwells the sword through the flaw inside of it.

 

My hunch is that Callandor has a much bigger role to play than just a suped up sa'angrael at the Last Battle. The Dark One will guess that that is what Rand will try and will make himself present in the flaw within the sword, waiting for Rand and two of the most powerful women to use the sword, and then either take them captive, turn them to the dark, or destroy them. Likely one of the second two options. However, when the Dark One tries this, Rand will break Callandor and temporarily cast the Dark One from the pattern. This will set the stage for the seed-singing closure of the bore.

Casting aside the Dark one from the pattern is just exactly what the DO Wan't no?

I mean that will free him entirely

[didymos]

I always thought the seals, the disks, were physical indicators of prophetic events being fulfilled, instead of literally being the "actual" seals themselves.

 

No. They are the focus points for the patch LTT and Co. placed on the Bore. Yes, they're signs that figure in the prophecies, but that's because when one is broken, the patch actually and truly does get weaker. That is stated in the books.

[Fryn]

I've long thought that the seals needed to be broken. And that the longer it took before they were broken the worse off the light would be. Just because the books focus on the light's victories it doesnt mean the dark hasnt been moving in the shadows as shown by the epiloge. (If my posts from years back are still on the board here I think I had the relevant quotes)

 

I never bought the whole DO wanting the seals broken thing. As long as they are weak he is able to extend his influence without being able to be stopped. LTT's outbreak trying to destroy the seal was one of his most sane moments imo =p

 

End result the seals will be broken. I still kinda wonder if the last fight will somehow involve Rand and Moridin and that link will allow Rand to strike at the DO and create a better seal.

[Omega]

For a time I had considered being able to exploit the connection to Mordin to be able to strike at the DO with, like perhaps turning the true power on him, or using it to create the bore, but given that it flows from him, considerable doubt might be able to be cast on that theory. Still I can't help but agree that that connection will somehow play a role in it.