Discuss Lan/Defense of the Blight Border

[anotherfingolfin]

Moiraine's letter states that the third person has to be someone that she doesn't know.

 

I see. Well, this certainly explains why it couldn't be her former Warder, but it still doesn't offer a good explanation as to why this should be the case. But thanks for your reply, anyways. Much appreciated.

 

ok, i kinda see where you are coming from, though i am not of the same opinion. you feel that the set up of the rescue precluding Lan is solely for Jain to have an exit, and overall doesn't enrich the story. Seems a little, out of place, a little contrived? Well, it didn't bother me, so though i can see the point, i don't agree. i mean, if we were to start questioning it all, then we get- why Thom? why Mat? Why three? Why couldn't Thom just tell, Mat, instead of waiting for him to ask about the letter?

[tneva82]

3 men had to rescue Moiraine, yes. Mat had to be one, Thom had to be another. Seems to me like Lan was the perfect choice for the third man, for reasons more than obvious. At least if I was Thom or Mat, that's the first thought that would've crossed my mind.

 

Apart from few issues:

 

a) Lan didn't know moiraine was alive. As far as he knew she was dead. No reason to believe otherwise.

b) To try would mean Moiraine dies. Fact. Simple as that. Is it honorable to ensure that not only you, Mat and Thom dies but also Moiraine, the very person you are trying to save?

 

Yeah. That's reasonable. Expect him to know she's alive when every EVIDENCE says she's DEAD and then if by some miraculous event(he got hold of WOT books?) he knew he would ensure they all die rather than have any shot of getting Moiraine saved alive.

 

"I'm so honorable I'm going to quarantee we all die! Rather than stay back and actually allow her chance to be rescued alive."

 

Lan is 3rd guy, all die. Simple as that. That's fact hard as stone.

 

Had Lan stuck around his inner circle like he should have, then he would have learned that Moiraine was alive and I'm 100% positive that he would have been the third man, instead of Noal/Jain. But he wasn't there anymore and so, he didn't know. Either way, he failed Moiraine.

 

So he would have been 3rd guy, they all would have died, sure as water is wet. Nice job Lan! Thanks for being so honourable!

 

I suppose you missed the fact that the 3rd guy HAD to be Noal. Any other and they all were going to end dead. Lan had been third guy, Mat, Thom, Lan and Moiraine would all be dead.

[tneva82]

Um...IDK, didn't Lan give his email or cell number to all his friends?

 

Now seriously, Traveling is a mean of communication that we don't even have in real life. And it certainly strikes me as a much better and more effective way of sending a message than an email or phone call. So, somebody could've traveled to Lan (the same way that we all suspect Rand and Nynaeve will to rescue him) and told him about Moiraine not being dead. After all, it's not as if Thom just found out last night, is it?

 

So, there you go...there's been plenty of time to share the great news with Lan (I'm assuming that, like me, you'd consider this to be great news to him, of course).

 

Rand doesn't know Moir is alive. Nynaeve doesn't know. Egwene doesn't know. Fact is Mat hasn't seen Rand for ages. And he has no real mean of going to him for quick chat. So even if Lan had stayed with Rand he wouldn't know until post-rescue.

 

Which of course doesn't even touch the issue that had Lan been the 3rd guy they would all just die. Wheel weaves as wheel does. Since Lan attempting the rescue means death of all, including Moiraine, the Lan wasn't allowed to know and ergo Rand didn't pop in via gateway to ask latest rumours from Mat(about only way knowledge of Moiraine would spread from Mat before they went to the tower).

[Darth Krewl]

ok, i kinda see where you are coming from, though i am not of the same opinion. you feel that the set up of the rescue precluding Lan is solely for Jain to have an exit, and overall doesn't enrich the story. Seems a little, out of place, a little contrived? Well, it didn't bother me, so though i can see the point, i don't agree. i mean, if we were to start questioning it all, then we get- why Thom? why Mat? Why three? Why couldn't Thom just tell, Mat, instead of waiting for him to ask about the letter?

 

Actually, I'd go far, far beyond that, because I didn't even want Moiraine rescued. Personally, I think that enough mentor figures have come back from the grave before already and that not enough major WoT characters have died. Therefore, for the sake of the story, the best thing would've been leaving Moiraine death once and for all, IMO. So to me, this is what feels contrived.

 

But Jordan wanted her to be his Gandalf, his Obi-Wan and so, he brings her back. Well, if it's gonna happen, then it's gonna happen, right? And in that sense, I do like the way it happened. I liked Noal/Jain's and Mat's sacrifices. Now, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there's a good reason for bringing Moiraine back, other than just to see her become Mrs. Merrilin (I'm sure there will be).

 

Debating this sort of thing is kinda like debating science vs. religion. Sometimes, you can never agree. But hey, at least we did agree on the point I was making (Lan's not a hero).

 

...

 

If you want a shot at me, then read the whole thing, will ya?

 

All my posts are there and the debate is pretty much over. I'm certainly not going to be repeating myself on a written debate/argument, when it's there for all to see.

[Ataxia]

Hey Darth,

 

Sorry if my posts came out abrasiveness/offensive. I tend to be sarcastic so it may come out in my posts. I meant no offense and actually was enjoying the debate. You actually started to sway me with the anti-hero idea. I think I took offense to it at first with a misunderstanding about what you meant. Anyways, its quite interesting to think of what Lan/Rand would have done if they found out she was stuck in the tower...Dark Rand may have blown the place to hell but Light Rand probably would have walked in and taken her back with no problems at all.

[blueeys54]

I think borderlanders will come through gateways popping up all over the place. Are borderlanders at the FoM with Rand (I don't recall)?

 

I happen to agree with you on this one. I believe that through linked gateways, the borderland armies will flank the shadow and save the Malkier mid battle. Then from there, the borderland armies will begin the liberation of all of the border post that have fallen. I don't think Rand ever told them about FoM. I think he gave them the impression that if they didn't return to the border, they would be left out all together. They will do thier duty.

[Darth Krewl]

Hey Darth,

 

Sorry if my posts came out abrasiveness/offensive. I tend to be sarcastic so it may come out in my posts. I meant no offense and actually was enjoying the debate. You actually started to sway me with the anti-hero idea. I think I took offense to it at first with a misunderstanding about what you meant. Anyways, its quite interesting to think of what Lan/Rand would have done if they found out she was stuck in the tower...Dark Rand may have blown the place to hell but Light Rand probably would have walked in and taken her back with no problems at all.

 

No problem, Ataxia. I'm an opinionated guy and just as passionate as anyone, so I'm used to getting caught up in the middle of heated debates and I enjoyed this one as well hah hah! Besides, I understand how we all tend to react when we feel like someone's messing with our favorite stories, characters, passages, etc.

 

I was just trying to make a point about Lan not being a hero per se. Not because I like/dislike him personally, but because he definitely strikes me more like the Bruce Willis type of antihero (as I said in an earlier post) than the typical hero in fantasy. Either way, I don't question his courage, experience and skills as a warrior and this why I said earlier that I think his foolish, suicidal run is more of a hindrance to the forces of the Light, because he's too valuable an ally to lose over such a lost cause. So, it's all good, don't worry about it :)

[Val Mickey]

Does anyone think Lan is the Broken Wolf?

[blazetheearth]

Borderlanders are at FoM as of the Epilogue

 

"...his [Rand's] body slept beside Min in their new camp, surrounded by Borderlanders, set up on the Fields of Merrilor."

 

Not sure if Lan is the Broken Wolf or not. But personally I prefer the idea that it is Luc.

[Entreri]

Does anyone think Lan is the Broken Wolf?

 

 

When I read that passage that is the first thing that came to my mind. Lan being the Broken Wolf and his death would certainly demoralize the Light forces. He is going on a suicidal charger after all.

 

Second was Perrin, this would be a colossal lost, fatal I would say to the Light.

 

Could it be Bashere? Or one of the other Great Captains?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Lan's decision is idiotic, for being older than all the others, he is seemingly the most immature of the lot barring. He had to be forced by a woman half his age who isn't even Malkeri to do his duty; at least Al'Akir and the Malkeri saved the last king. The borderlands are destroyed, what will Lan accomplish with 12,000 non-chanellers against 100,000+ Trollocs. Even they delay them, if Lan is smart he knows that other armies will be breaking through elsewhere. What he needed to do was raise the golden crane at world's end, gather an army and do some good with it, rather than die for nothing. If a Foresaken is there, he or she could kill the majority without breaking a sweat and leave the rest for the trollocs.

Darth Krewl, I was merely pointing out that even had he known of Moiraine he should go after her and as this post states, I agree about his charge suicide. Honor or not, if no help comes, he'll still be honorably dead having accomplished nothing and Nyneave will feel the pain of his loss forever.

 

Then we are on the same page, FO. Because the point I've been making all this time is that I don't approve of what Lan did and that he certainly doesn't strike me as a hero in the very least. I certainly hear you and share your views.

 

As for Nynaeve's pain, well, she knew what she was getting into before marrying the suicidal dude. Perhaps she naively thought that her love could lead Lan to change his mind, but she's got no one to blame for her potential loss other than herself. So, I wouldn't shed any tears for the braid-tugging former Wisdom.

 

 

I havent read the whole thread so I will just reply to this.

 

I completely agree, although it certainly comes across as a heroic charge against evil, and I definitely got shivers when I read the epilogue, objectively it was selfish and stupid.

 

Lan is THE greatest swordsman in the world. He is a competent general, as we have seen, he could have helped the forces of Light. he also could play an important role in defending Nynaeve and Rand when they go to SG, in the circle with Callandor. (admittedly he may not be of much use if there are a tonne of channelers there, but he could fight Shaidar Haran or some fades/trollocs if they are there.

 

Fair enough, he played an important role in gathering the Malkieri and other remainding borderlanders to fight at Tarwin's Gap, but he should have at least discussed it with Rand and Bashere/Ituralde and co-ordinated the attacks. (again, I admit that he was not intending to gather that army)

 

Continuing on that train of thought, Lan going into the Blight alone is stupidity at its greatest. I mean, christ, the Last Battle was just about to begin when he left. He could have waited a month or so and got his chance to fight and maybe do some good by helping Rand and co. out before throwing himself into a trolloc pot.

 

I also agree about Nynaeve, she knew what she was getting into, Lan tried to avoid the bonding, its not really his fault. I think it is a testement to Nynaeve's strength and love that she allowed him to go, I have nothing but respect for Nynaeve now.

 

So in the end, while reading about Lan gave me shivers and is certainly epic, still, it was a stupid thing for him to do, and I wont be as devistated as I would if he dies in this manner.

[Darth Krewl]

I havent read the whole thread so I will just reply to this.

 

I completely agree, although it certainly comes across as a heroic charge against evil, and I definitely got shivers when I read the epilogue, objectively it was selfish and stupid.

 

Lan is THE greatest swordsman in the world. He is a competent general, as we have seen, he could have helped the forces of Light. he also could play an important role in defending Nynaeve and Rand when they go to SG, in the circle with Callandor. (admittedly he may not be of much use if there are a tonne of channelers there, but he could fight Shaidar Haran or some fades/trollocs if they are there.

 

Fair enough, he played an important role in gathering the Malkieri and other remainding borderlanders to fight at Tarwin's Gap, but he should have at least discussed it with Rand and Bashere/Ituralde and co-ordinated the attacks. (again, I admit that he was not intending to gather that army)

 

Continuing on that train of thought, Lan going into the Blight alone is stupidity at its greatest. I mean, christ, the Last Battle was just about to begin when he left. He could have waited a month or so and got his chance to fight and maybe do some good by helping Rand and co. out before throwing himself into a trolloc pot.

 

I also agree about Nynaeve, she knew what she was getting into, Lan tried to avoid the bonding, its not really his fault. I think it is a testement to Nynaeve's strength and love that she allowed him to go, I have nothing but respect for Nynaeve now.

 

So in the end, while reading about Lan gave me shivers and is certainly epic, still, it was a stupid thing for him to do, and I wont be as devistated as I would if he dies in this manner.

 

Exactly!

 

This is what I had been exposing all along concerning Lan. It's not a matter of liking/disliking the character per se (personally, I've mixed feelings about the guy, 'cause I admire his strengths and sense of honor, but find his stubborn grim nature and suicidal tendencies extremely infuriating). It's a matter of analyzing his suicidal charge from a detached, neutral position and you nailed it, BBM.

 

Nothing more to add, other than Nynaeve. I totally hated her at first, I admit it. I wanted her dead, time and time again lol! But, the way she has grown into her role as heroin who gives up everything to fight the good fight has made me respect her a ton, also. I mean, I don't think I could be friends w/someone like her in real life, but I do respect and commend her for the woman she's become since she left Emond's Field, looking to take the kids back.

[lsm]

hi,

 

about how his charge, last stand is stupid, there is the "he sent a powerful sensation of love to Nyn" - this a sort of prearranged signal to nynaeve for the good guys to come and travel in to help.

 

prior to this there's a part of the POV where he regrets thinking of 'should' of felt pain if he dies, but i didn't read it as he knows he will die. that one sentence of him sending off his feelings of love, not just a offhand thought, but a deliberate sending of love, i think is really a big huge flare for help to come. cmon, Lan? die? nooo way!!

 

btw, wasn't there a part with the new Rand, when returning in Tear i think, where he mentions that Lan will not be left alone (as opposed to the steel rand where lan has to sacrifice)

[Barid Bel Medar]

hi,

 

about how his charge, last stand is stupid, there is the "he sent a powerful sensation of love to Nyn" - this a sort of prearranged signal to nynaeve for the good guys to come and travel in to help.

 

prior to this there's a part of the POV where he regrets thinking of 'should' of felt pain if he dies, but i didn't read it as he knows he will die. that one sentence of him sending off his feelings of love, not just a offhand thought, but a deliberate sending of love, i think is really a big huge flare for help to come. cmon, Lan? die? nooo way!!

 

btw, wasn't there a part with the new Rand, when returning in Tear i think, where he mentions that Lan will not be left alone (as opposed to the steel rand where lan has to sacrifice)

 

YOu are joking? That powerful love to Nynaeve was because he was about to charge and die. This whole prearranged signal is crazy, there is no evidence to support it, we would have seen something. Im sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

 

I do agree that Rand and co. are going to come save him, but it wasnt Lan's plan. HE believes he is going to die, it isnt some conspiracy with crazy bond sending signals for an assult.

 

I do also agree that that sending will prompt Nynaeve to realize Lan is charging and gets Rand to come to rescue. But, I say again, it was definitely not a pre-arranged plan. Lan wanted to ride alone to battle for christs sake, he WANTS to die.

[lsm]

no, not joking, asides from the last bits of that part where the stuff relating to 'the end' and 'death' are generously sprinkled in to make believe everyone reading the epilogue into thinking 'aw damn he's going to die'

 

it's 'my land', and then Lan even has a speech 'once he was alone but no longer'. it can easily be more than just his 12K guys, what better way to signal help that some strong powerful emotion. i find that line deliberately placed to mean something, not a farewell wish

 

yup all these books we've read Lan has a deathwish, but is it still so? once the bond passed after nyn's passing of the test, short as it was, it has ramifications. does he really want to kamikaze now that he is bonded with his wife and not some delivery girl? wish i had that part where he becomes aware of nyn acquiring the bond on hand, that might have some clues right there too

[Barid Bel Medar]

no, not joking, asides from the last bits of that part where the stuff relating to 'the end' and 'death' are generously sprinkled in to make believe everyone reading the epilogue into thinking 'aw damn he's going to die'

 

it's 'my land', and then Lan even has a speech 'once he was alone but no longer'. it can easily be more than just his 12K guys, what better way to signal help that some strong powerful emotion. i find that line deliberately placed to mean something, not a farewell wish

 

yup all these books we've read Lan has a deathwish, but is it still so? once the bond passed after nyn's passing of the test, short as it was, it has ramifications. does he really want to kamikaze now that he is bonded with his wife and not some delivery girl? wish i had that part where he becomes aware of nyn acquiring the bond on hand, that might have some clues right there too

 

well fair enough. It does kinda make sense, Ill give it that.

 

I still maintain that there is absoultely no real evidence to sugggest such an arrangement. But hey, it does have its merits.

[Darth Krewl]

hi,

 

about how his charge, last stand is stupid, there is the "he sent a powerful sensation of love to Nyn" - this a sort of prearranged signal to nynaeve for the good guys to come and travel in to help.

 

prior to this there's a part of the POV where he regrets thinking of 'should' of felt pain if he dies, but i didn't read it as he knows he will die. that one sentence of him sending off his feelings of love, not just a offhand thought, but a deliberate sending of love, i think is really a big huge flare for help to come. cmon, Lan? die? nooo way!!

 

btw, wasn't there a part with the new Rand, when returning in Tear i think, where he mentions that Lan will not be left alone (as opposed to the steel rand where lan has to sacrifice)

 

And, why should the Light compromise their forces, only to come to the aid of a fully grown man who made his choice? Just because some fans of his don't wanna see him die?

 

He made his choice and now, he's regretted it and is crying for help, like a little kid, instead of the powerful warrior he is, going like, "oops! I screwed up, sorry! Now, could you please forget all about my bravado and all about your plans and come save me because, you know, I'm more important than the WHOLE frigging world!"?

 

The only reason that makes sense for Rand to come and help him is, as someone noted to me in this very thread, to save Shienar (an entire nation, not just one man) from the upcoming Trolloc invasion through Tarwin's Gap. Otherwise, Lan made his choice. For good or ill and whatever he's got coming to him is nobody's fault but his own. No use crying foul now. Not for a real man, at least.

[lsm]

i see what you mean though, an arrangement during his travels from arafel to malkier, totally offscreen? would be rather cheesy out of the blue like that. it would need some backup chapters that for sure. but you'd think nynaeve would visit at least once now that she's connected right? i kiss farewell, something like that?

 

im not suggesting a huge military campaign coordinated by Mat thing, but something should happen in tarwins gap that is going to save the golden crane. rand cleared it out once, why not a second time.

 

and (repeating here) rand indicated he wants to help Lan somewhere in ToM right. i guess it boils down that with the way things are and the way lan now is, i dont feel the suicide charge is really whats going to happen

[Darth Krewl]

i see what you mean though, an arrangement during his travels from arafel to malkier, totally offscreen? would be rather cheesy out of the blue like that. it would need some backup chapters that for sure. but you'd think nynaeve would visit at least once now that she's connected right? i kiss farewell, something like that?

 

im not suggesting a huge military campaign coordinated by Mat thing, but something should happen in tarwins gap that is going to save the golden crane. rand cleared it out once, why not a second time.

 

and (repeating here) rand indicated he wants to help Lan somewhere in ToM right. i guess it boils down that with the way things are and the way lan now is, i dont feel the suicide charge is really whats going to happen

 

No, the suicide thing won't happen. That's pretty much been established. Still, my point is that, regardless of any arrangements Lan and Nynaeve may have made between themselves, Rand cannot and should never compromise his plans, just to save one person who made his choice. Nor should he let Nynaeve stray from her path and risk herself only to save that suicidal fool of a husband of hers. She is too valuable to the cause of the Light to risk losing her so recklessly.

 

If he's coming to Lan's aid (which we all know he is) then he's gotta do it as part of his plans, as in saving Shienar from invasion, like I said before. Because, to compromise your plans and go out of the way for just one man who got himself in a very hot spot (and not of your doing, like Ituralde, for instance, who was in deep because Rand had sent him there) is not only never gonna be sound military strategy, it's unfair and irresponsible to all those millions of people who are depending on you.

 

In other words, should Rand's rescue attempt of Lan fail, then all is lost for the Light. And I for one, would rather see Lan impaled by a gazillion Trollocs than children ending up in their bellies because of a reckless rescue attempt of some fool who went to meet his doom willingly. It would be extremely unfair to all those not fortunate enough to be pals with the Dragon Reborn, like Lan and Nynaeve.

 

I've already used this example before and now, I'll use it again.

 

In Star Wars Episode II, when Padmé Amidala falls on the sand, Anakin Skywalker wants to go back to save the woman he loves. But his master, Obi-Wan Kenobi forbids it. "We have a chance to capture Count Dooku and end this war. What do you think Padmé would do in your place?", asks Obi-Wan. Anakin replies "she would do her duty."

 

Exactly.

 

Characters like these are not fighting to bail out a friend, while compromising the fate of all. They are fighting for causes that are larger than life. And, should Lan be out of any possibility for Rand to save him, then Rand should do his duty and end the war. Even Nynaeve. As simple as that.

[lsm]

it's good points, but the issue of supporting Lan's stand in tarwins gap was started in TGS between nyn and rand.

 

and here in this book we see some character development of Lan: he accepts followers, not willingly at first but eventually he takes them in. he discards trying to act on his word to the letter like an Aes Sedai would, and act on honor instead. so why lead a charge of 12,000 men vs 150,000, obvious doom right?

 

going back to the prequel book, Lan is no stranger to tactics, what was it... the anvil/hammer? could there just be another strike he's thinking of, the reverse of the anvil/hill chapter? a feigned pinprick with masses of help behind his enemy?

 

with the bond passing, he's no longer in a state of once moiraine passes i will resume my suicide, nor is he now i have to serve this new Aes Sedai since she holds my bond. now he is in a i love nyn and she loves me, despite his suicidal POvs we've read about him, there is a real strong bond now. gawyn, bryne, are these the only guys that have changed mentally after being bonded after love?

[Darth Krewl]

it's good points, but the issue of supporting Lan's stand in tarwins gap was started in TGS between nyn and rand.

 

and here in this book we see some character development of Lan: he accepts followers, not willingly at first but eventually he takes them in. he discards trying to act on his word to the letter like an Aes Sedai would, and act on honor instead. so why lead a charge of 12,000 men vs 150,000, obvious doom right?

 

going back to the prequel book, Lan is no stranger to tactics, what was it... the anvil/hammer? could there just be another strike he's thinking of, the reverse of the anvil/hill chapter? a feigned pinprick with masses of help behind his enemy?

 

with the bond passing, he's no longer in a state of once moiraine passes i will resume my suicide, nor is he now i have to serve this new Aes Sedai since she holds my bond. now he is in a i love nyn and she loves me, despite his suicidal POvs we've read about him, there is a real strong bond now. gawyn, bryne, are these the only guys that have changed mentally after being bonded after love?

 

Okay, not sure I'm getting you here. I mean, I know Nynaeve has been pressing Rand to leave his countless plans and deeds as, like only the savior of the entire world, to save her beloved husband for 2 books now.

 

So, are you trying to tell me that, of the sudden, Lan has come to take his decision back because of the love he shares with his wife through the Warder bond?

 

'cause if you are, I think it'd be a little late for that, most definitely. He made his choice and any responsible adult has to stick to his/her choices and pay the price for any potential mistakes said choices may lead us to. Ditto for Nynaeve.

 

Again, Lan made his choice and he's a tough SOB, so I see him sticking to that choice, come hell or high water and not putting his friends/allies in risk, only because he changed his mind at the very last minute, regardless on how he may feel about his wife and her becoming a very powerful reason to live that the guy lacked to that moment.

 

So, that being said, this is not about liking/disliking Lan personally, but analyzing how sound/unsound is the idea of Rand exposing himself needlessly (or Nynaeve) on the eve of an all-important battle that will affect the entire world. Again, the only reason that would be good enough to justify that, is if Rand came to the aid of Shienar, an entire nation and all its innocent citizens, to save them (along with his friend) from a pending Trolloc invasion.

[Terrapin]

When I read Lan's last charge, I was reminded of the last charge of the Heart guard (not sure of the name, but the last charge of Manatherin against the horde of dreadlords and trollocs). Manatherin was fighting for their lives and their homeland; had sent out missives requesting aid; subsequently, no aid arrived; the remnant of Manatherin’s warriors charged a massive army that finally began crossing the river efficiently. At the time, many of the nations where divided and fighting on many fronts against the sudden surge of trollocs. It wasn't till after the death of Manatherin, did the nations unite and destroy or drive the trollocs back to the blight. It took a huge shock to shake the leaders of WOT world into a decisive and cohesive action. (paraphrasing from memory, apologize if I miss represent or miss "quote")

 

Lan is now in an approximately similar situation. He is the king of Malkier charging a mass of trollocs crossing over into the border lands with the remnant of his people's warriors. Reasonable to assume the malkieri women and children, to young to fight, are elsewhere. (similar to the women and young of Manatherin fleeing/not present) This charge doesn't delineate the destruction of the Malkieri ethnicity, people or culture, but an ending to an already doomed kingdom. (Two rivers was not a kingdom and had no king, but are the descendents of Manatherin blood)

 

The Leaders of WOT nations and entities are meeting to discuss Rand's proclamation. Paralleling the divide previously mentioned these leaders are divided by what action to pursue. (King of Tear tells Egwene that he will listen to her proposal but is ruling by Rand's grace, Perrin supports Rand’s idea, Egwene and others think Rand is insane.) With Tarmon Gaiden rapidly approaching, there will need to be a mechanism in place to allow for a 'quick' unification of the lights forces.

 

 

Lan's plight offers this mechanism and would allow AMOL to progress toward more purposeful pursuits, such as: tying up loose threads, black tower confrontation, Moiraine reunion, and provide greater capacity for the larger confrontation (i.e, the ultimate climax of the series, Rand sealing bore) With only a finite number of pages and every readers desire for these threads to be divulged in detail, there is almost a need for something to this effect.

 

Lan will be saved or die; either way, hopefully it is portrayed in spectacular fashion. Realize the potential of the Lan's situation. After so many years, there will be no more story creation but conclusions.

 

If Lan were to die, this act would shake the hearts of men and possibly bind them together in the effort of the Last battle. As continually demonstrated in the series, for WOT leaders to make decisive and any semblance of cohesive action, there must be a huge shock wave to trigger its reaction.

 

Unfortunately, my TOM book has grown legs and disappeared, but I'll try my hand at speculation:

 

Is Lan's plight only driven at tying off a loose thread, or can he be a pebble dropped into the pond?

I believe Lan has been eluded to appearing as a wolf ready to leap into action. His bond has been passed along twice now, could this delineate broken?

Lan is respected by many leaders and is in a position to cause woe and dishearten others. On the other hand he could be portrayed as a martyr and a rallying force for the light.

 

Anyway, I thought the parallel between the two themes were to similar for happenstance.

 

As I said earlier, I don't have my book with me and I can't remember everything clearly right now. It is late and I have to get up earlier than I would like so I'll leave it there for now. I don't want to ramble to much before checking on this thought.

 

Cheers

[Quorothorn]

When I first read the conclusion of the epilogue, my first thought was that the best thing to do would be gate the Borderlanders Rand just picked up directly behind the Trolloc army and let them be the anvil to the Malkieri hammer. 200,000 (or even a smaller portion of that force, like 50,000) troops suddenly appearing behind the Trolloc army instantly changes that battle around without even needing channelling beyond mass-Traveling. I think the Borderlanders would be more useful there than at Merrilor, and with surprise, some advantage of terrain, AND numbers, the Light forces should win pretty straight-forwardly, with another Trolloc army smashed all to bits. Make Lan's big charge truly useful. There are other possibilities, of course, but that was my initial reaction.

[Mats Spare Hat]

i see what you mean though, an arrangement during his travels from arafel to malkier, totally offscreen? would be rather cheesy out of the blue like that. it would need some backup chapters that for sure. but you'd think nynaeve would visit at least once now that she's connected right? i kiss farewell, something like that?

 

im not suggesting a huge military campaign coordinated by Mat thing, but something should happen in tarwins gap that is going to save the golden crane. rand cleared it out once, why not a second time.

 

and (repeating here) rand indicated he wants to help Lan somewhere in ToM right. i guess it boils down that with the way things are and the way lan now is, i dont feel the suicide charge is really whats going to happen

 

No, the suicide thing won't happen. That's pretty much been established. Still, my point is that, regardless of any arrangements Lan and Nynaeve may have made between themselves, Rand cannot and should never compromise his plans, just to save one person who made his choice. Nor should he let Nynaeve stray from her path and risk herself only to save that suicidal fool of a husband of hers. She is too valuable to the cause of the Light to risk losing her so recklessly.

 

If he's coming to Lan's aid (which we all know he is) then he's gotta do it as part of his plans, as in saving Shienar from invasion, like I said before. Because, to compromise your plans and go out of the way for just one man who got himself in a very hot spot (and not of your doing, like Ituralde, for instance, who was in deep because Rand had sent him there) is not only never gonna be sound military strategy, it's unfair and irresponsible to all those millions of people who are depending on you.

 

In other words, should Rand's rescue attempt of Lan fail, then all is lost for the Light. And I for one, would rather see Lan impaled by a gazillion Trollocs than children ending up in their bellies because of a reckless rescue attempt of some fool who went to meet his doom willingly. It would be extremely unfair to all those not fortunate enough to be pals with the Dragon Reborn, like Lan and Nynaeve.

 

I've already used this example before and now, I'll use it again.

 

In Star Wars Episode II, when Padmé Amidala falls on the sand, Anakin Skywalker wants to go back to save the woman he loves. But his master, Obi-Wan Kenobi forbids it. "We have a chance to capture Count Dooku and end this war. What do you think Padmé would do in your place?", asks Obi-Wan. Anakin replies "she would do her duty."

 

Exactly.

 

Characters like these are not fighting to bail out a friend, while compromising the fate of all. They are fighting for causes that are larger than life. And, should Lan be out of any possibility for Rand to save him, then Rand should do his duty and end the war. Even Nynaeve. As simple as that.

 

 

And if Luke had listened to Yoda, done his duty, and not gone to Cloud City to rescue his friends? One not even half-trained man against a huge trap laid by a Sith Lord with overwhelming forces? Seems outside the realm of possibility for Luke to save them (tic)...Yoda even tells him that if he honors what his friends fight for, than he should sacrifice them for the greater cause, and millions of billions of people in the galaxy. In the case of Lan & Rand, you're pulling a Yoda! And Rand >>>>>>>> Luke in Empire.

 

Luke loses his hand, and finds out Vader's his father. It's that revelation that's key to Luke's development. If he never goes through that experience, than he would never have even tried to turn Vader on the Death Star. If Luke does his duty and stays away, his friends get axed by the Empire. If he doesn't turn Vader, he dies at the hands of the Emperor. Everybody Dies if Luke does his Duty.

 

If Anakin had gone after Padme`, Dooku would have esca...oh wait, he did anyway, and the dude lost his arm...hmm, oh well, Duty! It was the right thing *nods

 

It's NEVER as "simple as that". Rand can freakin Waste trollocs like nobody's business, by HIMSELF! and Lan's his friend, deathwish or not. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, you know what Rand's duty is? Go bleed on Shayol Ghul and peace out. That's it, forget everything else, leave the world as it is and just go pick a scab on that boulder over there, thanks, see you next wheel rotation.

 

Rand's a man, he had a life, family & friends. He's got immense power at his fingertips, and the ability to help, even by himself. Go Maradon all up in the Gap. But hell, there's no way it'd ever be just Rand by himself! Even if Rand said, NOBODY FOLLOW ME. They'd follow. It doesn't have to be "part of a plan" at all.

 

Rand: I'm going after my pal.

Egwene: rar rar rar I'm all that, do your duty. Ugh, like, everybody's with me, screw one man OMG!

Nynaeve: ...Uh, I'm with the dude.

Cadsuane: Me too... hey check out this crystal sword!

Nynaeve: Oh hey, there's two of us and one of him and that sa'whatever. What's that get us?

Cads: A whole lotta F.S.U on trollocs, let's mosey

Maidens: Don't forget about us! *collective crooning of Mariah Carey song

*all other Aiel: Whoa whoa whoa, hold your Toh-orses, we follow the dude

Rand: ....The dude abides *shrug

[Darth Krewl]

And if Luke had listened to Yoda, done his duty, and not gone to Cloud City to rescue his friends?

 

He wouldn't have learned a very valuable lesson in humility; one that many of the younger characters in WoT are in dire need of, btw. Even the older, more experienced Jedi...er...Aes Sedai, as Yoda said, referring to the arrogance that had come to plague the Jedi during the Order's waning days.

 

Also, Luke wouldn't have been defeated so soundly by a vastly superior opponent at that moment and, finally, he wouldn't have put his friends at risk by forcing them to come back to rescue him, instead of the other way around.

 

One not even half-trained man against a huge trap laid by a Sith Lord with overwhelming forces? Seems outside the realm of possibility for Luke to save them (tic)...Yoda even tells him that if he honors what his friends fight for, than he should sacrifice them for the greater cause, and millions of billions of people in the galaxy. In the case of Lan & Rand, you're pulling a Yoda! And Rand >>>>>>>> Luke in Empire.

 

Bingo! That's what I'm talking about, Yoda's words to Luke about sacrificing his friends, if he really honored what they were fighting for. Just as everyone in the WoT world should understand and honor what Lan's fighting for.

 

Luke loses his hand, and finds out Vader's his father. It's that revelation that's key to Luke's development. If he never goes through that experience, than he would never have even tried to turn Vader on the Death Star. If Luke does his duty and stays away, his friends get axed by the Empire. If he doesn't turn Vader, he dies at the hands of the Emperor. Everybody Dies if Luke does his Duty.

 

IMO, that's debatable. See, in the novelization for The Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan's ghost tells Luke that, once his training in Dagobah was over and Yoda and Obi-Wan felt like Luke was ready, they would reveal him the truth. But he rushed hastily into the aid of his friends, compromising everything. Luke nods and tells Obi-Wan, "I'm sorry." The argument between them is never about that. It's about Luke's take on the possibility of redeeming Anakin. But he does understand just how badly he compromised everything because of his hastiness, arrogance and inexperience.

 

Nuff sed, I would think ;-)

 

As for his friends well...maybe you and I watched a different versions of The Empire Strikes Back, but counting on the innumerable times I've watched that film over the last 30 yrs. (I was 10 when it first came out. I watched it during its original release, actually), I seem to remember that Leia and Chewie had already managed to rescue themselves, with more than a little help from a repentant Lando, of course. So, it's not like they needed Luke's help in this matter. Also, Yoda wanted to tell Luke the truth much earlier. It was Obi-Wan who opposed him, thinking that Luke would be in great danger of falling to the Dark Side and joining his father.

 

If Anakin had gone after Padme`, Dooku would have esca...oh wait, he did anyway, and the dude lost his arm...hmm, oh well, Duty! It was the right thing *nods

 

Yes, Lord Tyranus escaped. And why? Well, because young, brash, hotheaded, almighty Anakin decided that he could take on a former Jedi Master and now full-fledged Sith Lord all by himself, compromising Obi-Wan's idea of a joint effort. Or, did you not hear Obi-Wan screaming, "NO, ANAKIN! WAAAIT!" at the top of his lungs?

 

The loss of his arm is Lucas' way to illustrate how, "in his book, experience is everything". Anakin loses an arm vs. a more experienced opponent, just like Luke loses a hand to Vader for the same reason and, finally, Anakin is maimed by Obi-Wan for the same, damned, exact reason. Jordan, I never knew that well. But Lucas? Him, I know like the palm of my hand. Don't tempt me into a battle of knowledge on the Saga, son. I didn't exactly choose this handle by accident, y'know? ;-)

 

Alas, this is not a SW fan site, so I guess we'll have to leave it for another place and another time. Suffice to say that there's a reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan were so bent on opposing Luke from leaving Dagobah in order to help his friends. Matter of fact, the comparison is completely inappropriate in this case, because Moridin (who'd the be the closest equivalent to Lord Vader) is not using Lan as bait to capture Rand.

 

In that case, the best parallels between the 2 series, would be the way Semirhage uses Rand's love for Min to force him into using the True Power, just like Lord Sidious uses Anakin's love for Padmé to force him into yielding to the dark side of the Force. But, again, that would be quite a different story...

 

It's NEVER as "simple as that". Rand can freakin Waste trollocs like nobody's business, by HIMSELF! and Lan's his friend, deathwish or not. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, you know what Rand's duty is? Go bleed on Shayol Ghul and peace out. That's it, forget everything else, leave the world as it is and just go pick a scab on that boulder over there, thanks, see you next wheel rotation.

 

Rand's a man, he had a life, family & friends. He's got immense power at his fingertips, and the ability to help, even by himself. Go Maradon all up in the Gap. But hell, there's no way it'd ever be just Rand by himself! Even if Rand said, NOBODY FOLLOW ME. They'd follow. It doesn't have to be "part of a plan" at all.

 

Oh, but who are we to tell the Dragon Reborn what he should do about his friends, even the foolish, suicidal ones? Who are we to tell Lan Mandragoran, a man in his mid to late forties, I would think, what he should/shouldn't do with his life?

 

All we can do is state our opinions. And in that sense, nobody forced Lan to land himself in such a mess. He did it all by himself. And the fact that exposing the Light's savior (or valuable assets, such as powerful Nynaeve Sedai) to rescue this one man for personal reasons is very foolish, from a military standpoint and that is simple fact....heh heh

 

Now, if Rand can make something useful out of his effort to rescue Lan (like save Shienar from a Trolloc invasion or devastate a large enemy army, as others have suggested here), then I'm all for it.