Discuss Demandred

[Shmuel Goldberg]

I think the 'murderer on the Seanchan throne' might be a red herring. Well, ok, the whole royal family was murdered (by Semirhage), and someone unrelated took the opportunity to put him/herself on the throne. But for anyone in Seanchan it must look like that this person obviously has murdered the royals, even if in truth that isn't so, because it is so in line with expectations.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Predicting that General Demandred IS the (second to, as usual) Last Battle. Really, he's sold as being second only to Lews Therin as a leader of men - he's going to be coming out with all the firepower and Andor's gonna get hit by a Shadow-style hurricane of physical and saidar/saidin enhanced might. 'Cuz let's see, there's the open Waygate with the trollocs coming through it in Caemlyn, the Black Tower and a host of Shadow-turned channelers at the Black Tower (in Andor), a swarm of about 80-something pissed off Black Ajah coming from Tar Valon just to the northeast, a bunch of unidentified Greatships coming from the west, a very suspicious little country called Murandy directly to the south... well, I'm not sure I got everything, but that's more than enough for a good pitched battle.

 

And that's not even counting the crap coming out of the Blight (diversion?), Moridin and his two (three?) wenches, and The Fain, whatever he's up to. Or anyone else I've forgotten.

[Kahlika]

RJ stated his 3rd age alter ego hadn't been seen "on camera" as of KoD. That implies he does have a 3rd age alter ego maybe (I initially thought he didn't tbh).

 

We know his rule is secure and he gathers for war.

 

We know he is not Taim.

 

We know that as of LoC "events to the South had Demandred's mark all over them" (spoken by Sammael in Arad Doman), and that Demandred favours using proxies.

 

Places:

 

Black Tower - Unlikely

He's not Taim for sure, he doesn't recognise Dashiva when he sees him. Ishamael has been involved there. He's ruling somewhere/thing, not playing second fiddle.

 

Seanchan - Unlikely

Semirhage was very involved there up to KoD. He'd be playing second fiddle and/or displaying a level of trust in Semirhage we know he didn't have by the terms of their agreement to work together with Mesaana (that they would not turn on each other until the other Forsaken had fallen). The "rule is secure" comment was made in TGS Prologue, to the best of our knowledge Seanchan was in civil war at the time, with someone only being confirmed as taking the throne in ToM.

 

Murandy - Likely

Process of elimination puts him here. Disapointing as bigger things are generally expected of him, but certainly possible.

 

Shara - Possible

Not as likely as Murandy, but we know Graendal destabilised their leadership and then seems to have left the place alone. Potentially Demandred could have picked up the pieces, and his lack of on screen time ties to the lack of time given to Shara.

 

The Blight - Possible but less likely

Moridin seems busy in the Blight, again he'd have to break the forsaken MO of each setting up their own separate dominion. Aside from that there's nothing really against it.

 

Parallel world - Possible but unlikely

There's no real reason to argue against it, but it's getting pretty far out there. Although the shadow has used portal stones so maybe not totally crazy now?

 

Characters:

Yeoli - nope, died in ToM

Sleete - nope, not ruling anything or gathering for war

Roedran - possible, again more by a process of elimination.

Alsalam - possible, although unlikely given Graendal's involvement in Arad Doman.

Charlz Guybon - nope, had time "on camera" in KoD

Talmanes - had time "on camera" before/during KoD

Darlin - had time "on camera" before KoD

Paitar - time "on camera" before KoD

 

Personal prediction: The Red Veiled guys are his. He's going to get a bigish but not huge part as the Shadow's General, directing their armies. He's being set up for a showdown with Mat, the respective generals of each side, second behind the Nae'blis/Dragon, both known gamblers etc.

[bysomy]

2 theories:

1:We havent seen him because he is too busy, as in, he is in murandy, parallal world, shara, seanchan continent, blight, and he has people controlling black tower all at once

 

2:He is so good as a general that they shoved him in a statis box after book 6 or so (since forsaken were dropping like flies at that point) and will emerge to lead all the shadows armies

[DPT24]

My guess would be Demardred has done something with the Isle of Madmen. Crazy channelers and an uncivilized culture would be the perfect place for an Age of Legends person to take over. Or, he's in Sahra or Seanchan. He may be involved in Murandy, but I can't see that being his only thing, because that's way to small, and I doubt he'd need/want the help of the Band of the Red Hand if that were his primary base.

[Sabio]

) Demandred in Murandy. Nothing really new supporting this. The only mention is that Egwene, in her infinite wisdom, wrote a letter to the King of Murandy to ask for support at the Field of Merillor. If Roedran=Demandred, this was likely a very stupid thing to do. In other words, par for the course, really.

 

Suddenly someone unites Murandy. When for the longest time no one had the pwoer to do it. Demandred is another one who likes armies and Roedran was interested in "Mats book". Plus I took the comment from Egwene about wondering if King Roedran as sort of a clue. Seems werid that was put in the book. How intersting it will be if he is Demandred and he does show up. I think though all the leaders there a good time for him to launch an attack somewhere.

 

Demandred is not in Seachean. Whole purpose of killing he entire royal family there was to cause chaos and stop them from sending armies over. Their continent is in turmoil and fighting themslves so they won't be any use in the war. Same results as when Grendal took Sahar's rulers, it caused infighting thus eliminating them as a threat. Because of that the Forsaken won't have to waste their time there.

 

No point in having Demandred in the BT since Osan'gar was there, we haven't seen two forsaken in same place. Time Osan'gar dies, Taim was a DF and was no need to have a Forsaken in the tower to watch or convert Taim. Taim was already maing Asha'man Darkfriends.

[Ruska777]

I also doubt that Demandred is seanchan.....his character made an onscreen appearance as of KOD.....having read the series four times now, i have not found any seanchan charecters that fit the

bill as Demandred in disguise......Murandy seemed possible, however, that army seems ill placed and entirely to small to have any effect on the last battle. All we know is that he has an army and that he is ready to march. I simply hate not knowing where he is, but his entrance better be epic.....especially with all the build up. And it better be rand/lewis that kills him, or Mordin....that also would be sick

[Cirin]

Demandred might be in Seanchan... but the murderer on the throne may also be setting the stage for the possible outrigger novels which, if written (I remember Brandon Sanderson saying at a book signing that he WOULD do those three, but no more afterwards), would involve Mat and Tuon returning to Seanchan (since apparently Tom Doherty likes Mat, which seems to reflect good taste on his part). It's possible it's there for that reason. Who knows, though? He's going to have to have been up to something awesome, it's been hinted at since book 6 (where the Dark One is happy with his progress), but nothing much since then. Murandy is also possible, but even that seems kind of small potatoes for the Dark One to be that ecstatic about it. Likely something to do with the Black Tower, Shara (which has been mentioned numerous times, but hasn't appeared yet), or the battle preparations for the Shadow (although it seems that that is what Moridin has been doing).

 

Otherwise, my other theory (yes, it's a joke, you don't need to tell me that RJ said it's impossible or explain it away) is that Demandred hasn't been in the books because Demandred has already been killed! The man we see as Demandred is actually Asmodean pretending to be Demandred, spying on the Shadow from the inside! He spends his time drinking wine and writing music, occasionally sending a positive progress report back to Shayol Ghul!

[folkstyle]

Some of these suggestions sound great to me, but the one i have the most trouble with is Murandy. I understand that it makes sense through process of elimination. But I don't think he's Roedran for 2 reasons:

 

1. Murandy is too small. Demandred though of himself as better than LTT but was always 2nd best and Murandy just doesn't have power to offer. Also, I find it hard to believe that the people of Murandy would fight for the DO whether their king told them to or not(of course he could always be raising an army of DF).

2. The fact that Roedran used The Band to unify his nation and paid them to do it. I can't see Demandred asking the Band for help when he could simply use compulsion on the nobles of Murandy to unify their forces(or wouldn't even need to do that if he's gathering DFs). Further, there's no way he would pay the Band after they helped even if he needed their help for some reason. He could just use compulsion on Talmanes and case closed.

 

My best guess is that he's in Shahara. I know some people have stated that this would be anti-climatic and i agree, but it just seems to me that they are the only ones who don't seem to have any idea what's going on with the DO and they follow their rulers to the letter so if he is able to take control of them then they may fight for the DO in the LB. This is also supported by the fact that Shahara united against Randland would be a much more powerful army than Murandy or anything else that I see as available(except Seanchan, which is another possibility for the same reasons as shahara). I would like to see something come from Shahara, so far they're kinda just a complete side story.

 

Anyways, I'm new to the forum and could be totally off on this, it's just my best guess.

[cgilbertmc]

I think it's possible he is in control of the Seanchan mainland. In the 1st chapter it said "a murderer ruled openly in Seanar."

 

 

I like this... But what about Galgan. High enough to have real power, not high enough to be a direct target except by Fortuona if he oversteps. The only POV we have from him is in KoD and it was about self promotion. Nothing to eliminate him from the consideration.

[bushboy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Land of Madmen only mentioned in the World of WoT book? I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the main series. If it isn't mentioned in the main series then how could Demi be there? It wouldn't make any sense. Likewise with parallel world theories. I think those ideas are just too far out there. Roedran is definitely the most likely. We haven't seen him on screen ever, and has there even been a Pov from inside the country? None of the main characters have been there. Its a location thats poised to strike at Andor, hiding in plain sight on Elayne's doorstep. It makes the most strategic sense. If Andor falls then there is little between the Borderlands and Rand's southern empire. I would find it massively disappointing if he teleported in from a parallel universe. I suppose its feasible that he is in command in Shara too. However I just cannot see him being elsewhere.

[Cirin]

Demandred has been busy building a Dark One based theme park in the Blight for the Shadowspawn armies to raise morale. He's also taking care of catering needs for the Dark One's efforts and various other secretarial duties. Come on, people, secretaries are important too, even if their work doesnt' always seem grandiose!

[randsc]

Darlin, King of Tear, is Demandred.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

Otherwise, my other theory (yes, it's a joke, you don't need to tell me that RJ said it's impossible or explain it away) is that Demandred hasn't been in the books because Demandred has already been killed! The man we see as Demandred is actually Asmodean pretending to be Demandred, spying on the Shadow from the inside! He spends his time drinking wine and writing music, occasionally sending a positive progress report back to Shayol Ghul!

 

Well, he was a politician and a bureaucrat in the AoL, so ya, he may just be really good at seeming to do things while not doing anything. He's likely created a number of shell corporations which hire the same small group of soldiers over and over again, so they get counted multiple times, making it seem like he's got himself an army while he's actually only got a couple of guys sitting around in a bar while Demandred siphons off the cash that's supposed to be going to them into an offshore account on one of the Seafolk islands.

 

I expect his main contribution to the Last Battle will be sitting around in strategy meetings discussing how to increase synergy between the various Trolloc clans and maybe getting involved in planning the Forsaken holiday party because that's high profile.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Darlin, King of Tear, is Demandred.

 

Assuming you're serious, not so much. Min has viewed him. All she saw was that he would be King of Tear, marry Caraline Damodred, and die in bed leaving her as his widow.

[Tom Sawyer]

Assuming you're serious, not so much. Min has viewed him. All she saw was that he would be King of Tear, marry Caraline Damodred, and die in bed leaving her as his widow.

 

So, that means that Caraline Damodred is essentially immortal until Darlin dies. She should totally go and attack some Black Ajah without bothering to make a plan for it or go impersonate a Forsaken to some without bothering to bring any guards along.

 

There's nothing that can go wrong.

[K3vlar]

There is no character in the WOT that I care less about than Demandred. This guy has had so much mystery surrounding him on exactly who he is and what he's doing. Not to mention all the buildup of what he is going to accomplish for the Shadow. At this point unless he is single handedly responsible for the death of a few main characters and he levels a few cities that we actually care about I find him totally irrelevant and the most disappointing of the Foresaken.

[randsc]

Alright then. Beslan is Demandred.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Assuming you're serious, not so much. Min has viewed him. All she saw was that he would be King of Tear, marry Caraline Damodred, and die in bed leaving her as his widow.

 

So, that means that Caraline Damodred is essentially immortal until Darlin dies. She should totally go and attack some Black Ajah without bothering to make a plan for it or go impersonate a Forsaken to some without bothering to bring any guards along.

 

There's nothing that can go wrong.

 

Pretty much. So long as the Wheel and the Pattern survive, she is guaranteed to outlive her husband.

 

That lack of suspense is what an author gets when he creates an infallible oracle like Min.

 

Kinda like creating way too powerful villains as he did with Semirhage and Graendal when he used them to remove the Seanchan homeland and Shara from play because he'd run out of time and space to deal with those two huge empires. The immensity of what they could accomplish alone bathed all of the Forsaken in a huge spotlight highlighting their stupidity and utter uselessness and devaluing the entire series. Jordan blew both of his feet off with those few paragraphs.

[Elan Tedronai]

I think it's possible he is in control of the Seanchan mainland. In the 1st chapter it said "a murderer ruled openly in Seanar."

 

 

I like this... But what about Galgan. High enough to have real power, not high enough to be a direct target except by Fortuona if he oversteps. The only POV we have from him is in KoD and it was about self promotion. Nothing to eliminate him from the consideration.

 

 

at this point in time, demandred is largely irrelevant to the grand scheme of things short of him actually doing something worthwhile in AMOL. He has been that for certain amount of time.

[Bob T Dwarf]

at this point in time, demandred is largely irrelevant to the grand scheme of things short of him actually doing something worthwhile in AMOL. He has been that for certain amount of time.

 

Kinda depends on what he's been up to and what he knows.

 

Remember, that after Lanfear disappeared into Finnland, both he and Aginor took over the task of keeping an eye on Rand.

 

We know that Aginor/Osan'gar ended up as Dashiva, an Asha'man Rand attached to himself who ultimately dies at the Cleansing.

 

But how has Demandred been fulfilling his duty of keeping an eye on Rand? Seems like that would be awfully hard to do as King Roedran. Seems like he'd have to be closer to Rand than unseen in Murandy.

 

So, where is he hiding? How is he keeping tabs on Rand?

 

An awful lot rides on the answer to those questions. Or at least it better given all the secrecy and buildup.

[Gor]

Kinda depends on what he's been up to and what he knows.

 

Remember, that after Lanfear disappeared into Finnland, both he and Aginor took over the task of keeping an eye on Rand.

 

We know that Aginor/Osan'gar ended up as Dashiva, an Asha'man Rand attached to himself who ultimately dies at the Cleansing.

 

But how has Demandred been fulfilling his duty of keeping an eye on Rand? Seems like that would be awfully hard to do as King Roedran. Seems like he'd have to be closer to Rand than unseen in Murandy.

 

So, where is he hiding? How is he keeping tabs on Rand?

 

An awful lot rides on the answer to those questions. Or at least it better given all the secrecy and buildup.

 

Aginor wasn't keeping an eye on Rand in the BT very well. He just got "lucky" and was picked by Rand to come with him. I think it is perfectly safe to assume that Demandred was (is) just as distant from Rand as Aginor was prior to his selection by Rand. Besides, Demandred is well-known for using proxies. I doubt he is keeping an eye on Rand himself.

 

His alias being Roedran in no way eliminates his hand in so many other sublots...seanchan, the blight, shara, aiel dudes..etc.

 

Also, in general I think people underestimate the strength of Murandy and their animosity towards Caemlyn. Murandy has always been strong, just disorganized...else why hasn't Caemlyn absorbed it after all those years. Roedran has organized it and had its army professionally trained. It would be easy for a Forsaken to warp the minds of those under his command to attack a neighboring country, even easier if that country is Caemlyn and the Forsaken ruled in Murandy.

 

If anything, ToM taught us that the predictable answer is usually the right one...Graendal did it, Mat would lose an eye, Danelle was Mesaana, etc....Demandred is Roedran.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

If anything, ToM taught us that the predictable answer is usually the right one...Graendal did it, Mat would lose an eye, Danelle was Mesaana, etc....Demandred is Roedran.

 

But at this point does it particularly matter that he's Roedran? Say that he joins Murandy's army in with the attack on Camelyn. That means that instead of 30,000 Trollocs attacking the city, you've got 30,000 Trollocs and 10,000 Murandians. Who cares?

 

At this point in the series, the Demandred storyline is so trivial that it makes no difference who or where he is because there can't be more than a couple of chapters spent on him before he dies.

[Gor]

 

If anything, ToM taught us that the predictable answer is usually the right one...Graendal did it, Mat would lose an eye, Danelle was Mesaana, etc....Demandred is Roedran.

 

But at this point does it particularly matter that he's Roedran? Say that he joins Murandy's army in with the attack on Camelyn. That means that instead of 30,000 Trollocs attacking the city, you've got 30,000 Trollocs and 10,000 Murandians. Who cares?

 

At this point in the series, the Demandred storyline is so trivial that it makes no difference who or where he is because there can't be more than a couple of chapters spent on him before he dies.

I think Murandy has a lot more than 10,000 soldiers. I also think he's tied into a lot more plots than just Murandy. His attack on the forces of light will be significant; but I do agree that it doesn't really matter that he is Roedran and that he will probably only get a chapter or 2 on his demise.

[Sigur]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, or disproved a million times over (fist day posting on here), but do you think that Demandred could have infiltrated Shara?

 

We know it is in a state of chaos right now, could be Demandred stirring things up/taking control.

 

We know very little about them, but we know they have channelers.

 

Thoughts?