Discuss Egwene

[Zagorac]

I agree! I personally LOVE Egwene. I've loved her from the first book. But I accept the fact that some people don't! I think the point of this thread was to discuss her arc in this book, which was in my opinion great. She destroyed one of the Forsaken, she is a great Amyrlin, she is trying to establish her authority.(which isn't easy, and you need to sometimes be a bitch in order to do that, because you CAN'T please everybody), She might get the Wise Ones and the Windfinders to work with her....Come on people isn't this enough. She is by no means perfect. But this is exactly why these books are great. Every character is so complex. I love them all but sometimes they make me crazy. Every one of them!(Some more than others). So in the end Zentari is right, it all comes to personal opinion. Some of us would be her friends some wouldn't. So hate her if you want but you've got to admit she's done some amazing things.. Maybe you wouldn't do it the same way but she still deserves your respect.

[Byzantine279]

My problem with Egwene is that in one conversation with Suian she changed her point of view completely, did a 180 on all of her progressive opinions, and decided to stick with tradition. She had the opportunity to change things, perhaps to finally integrate the white tower into the world, and SHE BLEW IT because she was so desperate to be a perfect Aes Sedai she forgot what she used to stand for.

[babuada]

Like any power craving person will do. These pretend AS will learn humility from Rand.

[sleepinghour]

"Lews Therin was mad."

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

"What difference?"

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better." Min found herself smiling as well.

"You know me, Min. Well, I promise you, I feel more like myself now than I have in months. I feel more like myself than I ever did as Lews Therin, if that makes any kind of sense. It's because of Tam, because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he would have succeeded."

—Towers of Midnight, ch 51: A Testing

One thing that struck me reading that part was that Rand excluded Egwene from his list of people important to him. No more than two or three years ago in the story, she was the second most important person in his life after Tam. Other people (Min, Aviendha, Elayne) have taken that place now, but I would have expected Egwene to be mentioned at least as a friend.

 

I say this not to criticize Egwene (although I'm not a fan of her). She's done some questionable things to Rand like attempting to spy on his dreams and suspected him of using Compulsion, but Rand's also done much to alienate his friends. Even so, we've seen time and again that Two Rivers people always have each others' backs when it counts. I think the Pattern gave them a shared history in order to avoid a retread of the Latra Posae/LTT conflict. This time, Rand was raised better. And, hopefully, so was Egwene:

 

Egwene stepped out of the silver arch cold and stiff with anger. She wanted the iciness of anger to counter the searing of memory. Her body remembered burning, but other memories scored and scorched more deeply. Anger cold as death.

"Is that all there is for me?" she demanded. "To abandon him again and again. To betray him, fail him, again and again? Is that what there is for me?"

—The Dragon Reborn, ch 23: Sealed

[dwn]

"Lews Therin was mad."

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

"What difference?"

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better." Min found herself smiling as well.

"You know me, Min. Well, I promise you, I feel more like myself now than I have in months. I feel more like myself than I ever did as Lews Therin, if that makes any kind of sense. It's because of Tam, because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he would have succeeded."

—Towers of Midnight, ch 51: A Testing

One thing that struck me reading that part was that Rand excluded Egwene from his list of people important to him. No more than two or three years ago in the story, she was the second most important person in his life after Tam. Other people (Min, Aviendha, Elayne) have taken that place now, but I would have expected Egwene to be mentioned at least as a friend.

 

I say this not to criticize Egwene (although I'm not a fan of her). She's done some questionable things to Rand like attempting to spy on his dreams and suspected him of using Compulsion, but Rand's also done much to alienate his friends. Even so, we've seen time and again that Two Rivers people always have each others' backs when it counts. I think the Pattern gave them a shared history in order to avoid a retread of the Latra Posae/LTT conflict. This time, Rand was raised better. And, hopefully, so was Egwene:

 

Egwene stepped out of the silver arch cold and stiff with anger. She wanted the iciness of anger to counter the searing of memory. Her body remembered burning, but other memories scored and scorched more deeply. Anger cold as death.

"Is that all there is for me?" she demanded. "To abandon him again and again. To betray him, fail him, again and again? Is that what there is for me?"

—The Dragon Reborn, ch 23: Sealed

 

I'd forgotten about it, but it definitely jumped out at me during my first read through. I took it as Rand subconsciously acknowledging that he and Egwene are never likely to be close again. I also get that impression when he's chatting with Siuan in 'The Amyrlin's Anger'.

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

I agree! I personally LOVE Egwene. I've loved her from the first book. But I accept the fact that some people don't! I think the point of this thread was to discuss her arc in this book, which was in my opinion great. She destroyed one of the Forsaken, she is a great Amyrlin, she is trying to establish her authority.(which isn't easy, and you need to sometimes be a bitch in order to do that, because you CAN'T please everybody), She might get the Wise Ones and the Windfinders to work with her....Come on people isn't this enough. She is by no means perfect. But this is exactly why these books are great. Every character is so complex. I love them all but sometimes they make me crazy. Every one of them!(Some more than others). So in the end Zentari is right, it all comes to personal opinion. Some of us would be her friends some wouldn't. So hate her if you want but you've got to admit she's done some amazing things.. Maybe you wouldn't do it the same way but she still deserves your respect.

Why do the Windfinders or the Wise Ones need to work with her? Why do they need to be connected to the White Tower? This is part of her, and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai arrogance. She manipulates the Wise Ones, women she admittedly respects, and yet she manipulates them to get what she wants because she thinks she (and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai) knows best. This part of the book really bugged me. In ToM Egwene really has no redeeming qualities that I see, other than she bungled into killing one of the Forsaken, and she didn't even technically do that.

[babuada]

I agree! I personally LOVE Egwene. I've loved her from the first book. But I accept the fact that some people don't! I think the point of this thread was to discuss her arc in this book, which was in my opinion great. She destroyed one of the Forsaken, she is a great Amyrlin, she is trying to establish her authority.(which isn't easy, and you need to sometimes be a bitch in order to do that, because you CAN'T please everybody), She might get the Wise Ones and the Windfinders to work with her....Come on people isn't this enough. She is by no means perfect. But this is exactly why these books are great. Every character is so complex. I love them all but sometimes they make me crazy. Every one of them!(Some more than others). So in the end Zentari is right, it all comes to personal opinion. Some of us would be her friends some wouldn't. So hate her if you want but you've got to admit she's done some amazing things.. Maybe you wouldn't do it the same way but she still deserves your respect.

Why do the Windfinders or the Wise Ones need to work with her? Why do they need to be connected to the White Tower? This is part of her, and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai arrogance. She manipulates the Wise Ones, women she admittedly respects, and yet she manipulates them to get what she wants because she thinks she (and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai) knows best. This part of the book really bugged me. In ToM Egwene really has no redeeming qualities that I see, other than she bungled into killing one of the Forsaken, and she didn't even technically do that.

Again like any Power hungry person will do.

[Kahlika]

Why do the Windfinders or the Wise Ones need to work with her? Why do they need to be connected to the White Tower? This is part of her, and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai arrogance. She manipulates the Wise Ones, women she admittedly respects, and yet she manipulates them to get what she wants because she thinks she (and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai) knows best. This part of the book really bugged me. In ToM Egwene really has no redeeming qualities that I see, other than she bungled into killing one of the Forsaken, and she didn't even technically do that.

 

Do you really not see the positive aspects of all the channelers working together and learning from eachother rather than hiding from each other, keeping secrets and refusing to share knowledge?

 

Egwene has been really positively involved in reaching out to women channelers, she's opened the novice books to people of all ages, she refused to destroy the Red Ajah when she could have done so easily, she reunited the WT itself with minimal bloodshed, she welcomed the Kin and developed the plan for allowing Aes Sedai to retire into them and she's actively reached out to the other organised groups of channelers.

 

Yes she's trying to bring all the groups together under the umbrella of the WT, which is hardly suprising given that she is the Amyrlin Seat, but she did so by proposing a fair bargain, they all stood equally, they all gave and took the same from each other in terms of sharing apprentices and so on, and she admitted to herself and the other Aes Sedai that if the WT was going to come out of the arrangement as the leader it would do so because they had earned it rightfully.

 

I really don't see what's wrong with that, in terms of negotiations and political dealmaking they all did very well out of it. The other groups all agreed to it, even the Windfinders, if they're content with the deal why are people upset about the fact it exists?

 

The only issue I can really see is over how it can be achieved/run, effectively either an existing structure needs to be used or a new one is set up. Using the existing structure is easier, more efficient etc. There's plenty of sensible reasons to have something like the WT coordinate such an arrangement, since it has much better resources by far to enable it to do so.

[Duskfire]

Why do the Windfinders or the Wise Ones need to work with her? Why do they need to be connected to the White Tower? This is part of her, and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai arrogance. She manipulates the Wise Ones, women she admittedly respects, and yet she manipulates them to get what she wants because she thinks she (and to a lesser extent the other Aes Sedai) knows best. This part of the book really bugged me. In ToM Egwene really has no redeeming qualities that I see, other than she bungled into killing one of the Forsaken, and she didn't even technically do that.

 

Do you really not see the positive aspects of all the channelers working together and learning from eachother rather than hiding from each other, keeping secrets and refusing to share knowledge?

 

Egwene has been really positively involved in reaching out to women channelers, she's opened the novice books to people of all ages, she refused to destroy the Red Ajah when she could have done so easily, she reunited the WT itself with minimal bloodshed, she welcomed the Kin and developed the plan for allowing Aes Sedai to retire into them and she's actively reached out to the other organised groups of channelers.

 

Yes she's trying to bring all the groups together under the umbrella of the WT, which is hardly suprising given that she is the Amyrlin Seat, but she did so by proposing a fair bargain, they all stood equally, they all gave and took the same from each other in terms of sharing apprentices and so on, and she admitted to herself and the other Aes Sedai that if the WT was going to come out of the arrangement as the leader it would do so because they had earned it rightfully.

 

I really don't see what's wrong with that, in terms of negotiations and political dealmaking they all did very well out of it. The other groups all agreed to it, even the Windfinders, if they're content with the deal why are people upset about the fact it exists?

 

I think people are upset because going by Egwenes thoughts she is using it as an advantage to the Whitetower; its not going to be a mutually beneficial thing, but rather something she intends to exploit longterm for Aes Sedai to grow even more influential. The idea itself is awesome and should have been done ages ago, but the thoughts behind it are a bit too Aes Sedai-ish.

[babuada]

You mean these White Tower pretend AS

[Kahlika]

I think people are upset because going by Egwenes thoughts she is using it as an advantage to the Whitetower; its not going to be a mutually beneficial thing, but rather something she intends to exploit longterm for Aes Sedai to grow even more influential. The idea itself is awesome and should have been done ages ago, but the thoughts behind it are a bit too Aes Sedai-ish.

 

She is Aes Sedai, I'm not sure what else people expect. That said she's also far and away one of the better Aes Sedai.

 

Sure, she wants to see the White Tower make gains from it. That's not unreasonable, if the head of an organisation went into an agreement on behalf of the organisation that had no actual or potential benefit it would be considered negligent, I personally don't understand why people expect her to, or think she should, work against the interests of an organisation that she is the leader of. However she also takes the position, and states to the other Aes Sedai, that if they gain from it they do it fairly and earn what they get. I don't see why that attitude is a problem.

 

In fact it's a pretty huge break from the Aes Sedai tradition of attempting to strictly control all objects of the power, all women who channel etc. She's established an alliance, but it's in actuality significantly less restrictive than the previously existing Aes Sedai policies and practices on the things involved. It is a big step forward for the Aes Sedai.

[Kahlika]

You mean these White Tower pretend AS

 

You keep mentioning that. Time to back it up. Find a quote that says they're not Aes Sedai.

 

Rand says he was the only one properly raised by the standards of the AoL, he doesn't say he is the only Aes Sedai, he treats them as Aes Sedai and refers to them as Aes Sedai. By the existing rules, which are what counts, they are Aes Sedai.

[David Selig]

Sure, she wants to see the White Tower make gains from it. That's not unreasonable, if the head of an organisation went into an agreement on behalf of the organisation that had no actual or potential benefit it would be considered negligent, I personally don't understand why people expect her to, or think she should, work against the interests of an organisation that she is the leader of. However she also takes the position, and states to the other Aes Sedai, that if they gain from it they do it fairly and earn what they get. I don't see why that attitude is a problem.

 

In fact it's a pretty huge break from the Aes Sedai tradition of attempting to strictly control all objects of the power, all women who channel etc. She's established an alliance, but it's in actuality significantly less restrictive than the previously existing Aes Sedai policies and practices on the things involved. It is a big step forward for the Aes Sedai.

 

I agree with that. I am not a fan of Egwene by any means, but I have no problems with her course of action in establishing the other groups of female channellers. Of course she'll look after the interests of the White Tower, that's her job. She offered them pretty fair terms, the others accepted them.

[babuada]

Sure, she wants to see the White Tower make gains from it. That's not unreasonable, if the head of an organisation went into an agreement on behalf of the organisation that had no actual or potential benefit it would be considered negligent, I personally don't understand why people expect her to, or think she should, work against the interests of an organisation that she is the leader of. However she also takes the position, and states to the other Aes Sedai, that if they gain from it they do it fairly and earn what they get. I don't see why that attitude is a problem.

 

In fact it's a pretty huge break from the Aes Sedai tradition of attempting to strictly control all objects of the power, all women who channel etc. She's established an alliance, but it's in actuality significantly less restrictive than the previously existing Aes Sedai policies and practices on the things involved. It is a big step forward for the Aes Sedai.

 

I agree with that. I am not a fan of Egwene by any means, but I have no problems with her course of action in establishing the other groups of female channellers. Of course she'll look after the interests of the White Tower, that's her job. She offered them pretty fair terms, the others accepted them.

No. That is not job of a true AS. She should be thinking only about what is best for Light, for all people serving Light, like Rand. I can understand Elyne looking for Andor as a queen, but not as an AS. Same goes with Egwin and every other pretend AS. And I repeat the pretend AS again, because they are so infirior to AoL AS and thinks only about WT instead of serving the People under Light. They are snooty to the nail of toe and Egwin their Queen.

[White_star]

"Lews Therin was mad."

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

"What difference?"

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better." Min found herself smiling as well.

"You know me, Min. Well, I promise you, I feel more like myself now than I have in months. I feel more like myself than I ever did as Lews Therin, if that makes any kind of sense. It's because of Tam, because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. ..."

—Towers of Midnight, ch 51: A Testing

 

One thing that struck me reading that part was that Rand excluded Egwene from his list of people important to him.

No more than two or three years ago in the story, she was the second most important person in his life after Tam. Other people (Min, Aviendha, Elayne) have taken that place now, but I would have expected Egwene to be mentioned at least as a friend.

 

I noticed this too and really, I wasn't surprised. She has given him NO reason to trust her and despite her saying she loved him like a brother she hasn't EVER shown it since Fal Dara. And, he didn't say 'people important to him' as she will always be his first love and the first one he kissed(I assume) but she has done nothing to help raise him nor has she done anything to mold or teach him.

 

I say this not to criticize Egwene (although I'm not a fan of her). She's done some questionable things to Rand like attempting to spy on his dreams and suspected him of using Compulsion,

Yep and treating his dreams like a game she vowed to win, always second guessing him, treating him like a little boy if not a low life and don't forget she also walked in on him whenever she felt like it even while he was in various stages of private time.

 

but Rand's also done much to alienate his friends.

True and he is trying to make amends, sometimes quite publicly, even almost falling into a depression if it hadn't been for Min. And for those who say she had no reason to trust him either considering the time apart and the RUMORS about him, maybe she is right to have some apprehension but true life experience should have made her put more faith in him since most of the(if not EVERY) time he has said or done something IN HER PRESENCE HE was right. However, I'm in the camp that thinks Rand played her to get her to react the way she did to his announcement.

 

Even so, we've seen time and again that Two Rivers people always have each others' backs when it counts. I think the Pattern gave them a shared history in order to avoid a retread of the Latra Posae/LTT conflict. This time, Rand was raised better. And, hopefully, so was Egwene:

 

Egwene stepped out of the silver arch cold and stiff with anger. She wanted the iciness of anger to counter the searing of memory. Her body remembered burning, but other memories scored and scorched more deeply. Anger cold as death.

"Is that all there is for me?" she demanded. "To abandon him again and again. To betray him, fail him, again and again? Is that what there is for me?"

—The Dragon Reborn, ch 23: Sealed

 

It has also been said many times that Egwene has left the TR behind a long time ago. I was actually disappointed in Egwene in this book. I've only read it once so far and don't have time for a reread but I had hoped after TGS the Ice Queen would continue to thaw but she's still and cold as ever.

 

I use to like her in the first and most of the second books. I actually thought she was kinda cute. That has changed of course for many reasons already mentioned but primarily the way she treats Rand. We ARE still only in the 2nd part of the last book so maybe I'll try to hold my thought on her til the end.

 

And that's the end of my ramble, sorry.

 

Cheers!

[Kahlika]

No. That is not job of a true AS... Same goes with Egwin and every other preten AS. And I repeat the pretend AS again, because they are so infirior to AoL AS and thinks only about WT instead of serving the People under Light.

 

Yeah, they should be boring a big hole in the Dark One's prison and then breaking the world. Egwene needs to get right on that.

 

Sarcasm aside what are you defining as a 'true' Aes Sedai? From the context of you seem to mean an AoL Aes Sedai? While the AoL is held up as a Utopia (and certainly is compared to the Third Age) what we've actually seen of the AoL Aes Sedai shows that politicing, plotting and climbing existed then too, despite them living with an entirely different set of cultural values and in an entirely different society generally. In the AoL serving the community was serving yourself, you had to serve the community in order to increase personal social status, which was highly valued.

 

That's really not surprising, they were still human after all. And that's not to say they didn't on the whole serve the Light, rather that serving the Light and thinking of their organisation and own position aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, and that was something ingrained into AoL society in a way that doesn't exist in the TA.

 

You seem to have a conception of 'Aes Sedai' as an ideal, rather than as something that's ever actually existed. In fact the only AoL person I can think of that lived in such an ideal way is Kamarile Maradim Nindar, and that worked out just great in the long term.

 

She should be thinking only about what is best for Light, for all people serving Light, like Rand.

 

That's incredibly simplistic. What if those interests are contradictory or she perceives those interests to be contradictory? Even where they aren't she has to make a decision sooner or later about what is best and how to get there, which I'd argue she's done. What is best for the Light is more than just an abstract concept, they do have to decide what that is (which will of course be coloured by their own thoughts and experiences, again they're human), and then actually do something to get there.

 

Actually doing 'what's best' involves thousands of little tiny steps that all have to be thought about, broken down and organised. That's what she's doing, taking the little steps that need to be taken to reach the greater goal as she understands it. I'm not arguing she's always correct, she's a flawed character, but the character and her actions need to be understood in context, we have the benefit of having far more information than she does etc.

[Jack Shaftoe]

In fact it's a pretty huge break from the Aes Sedai tradition of attempting to strictly control all objects of the power, all women who channel etc. She's established an alliance, but it's in actuality significantly less restrictive than the previously existing Aes Sedai policies and practices on the things involved. It is a big step forward for the Aes Sedai.

 

But is this because she doesn't want the Tower to control every channeller or because she is well aware that she can't really force the Aiel to obey her? But technically yes, recognizing the reality for what it is and not what they want it to be is a step forward for the AS.

[babuada]

No. That is not job of a true AS... Same goes with Egwin and every other preten AS. And I repeat the pretend AS again, because they are so infirior to AoL AS and thinks only about WT instead of serving the People under Light.

 

Yeah, they should be boring a big hole in the Dark One's prison and then breaking the world. Egwene needs to get right on that.

 

Sarcasm aside what are you defining as a 'true' Aes Sedai? From the context of you seem to mean an AoL Aes Sedai? While the AoL is held up as a Utopia (and certainly is compared to the Third Age) what we've actually seen of the AoL Aes Sedai shows that politicing, plotting and climbing existed then too, despite them living with an entirely different set of cultural values and in an entirely different society generally. In the AoL serving the community was serving yourself, you had to serve the community in order to increase personal social status, which was highly valued.

 

That's really not surprising, they were still human after all. And that's not to say they didn't on the whole serve the Light, rather that serving the Light and thinking of their organisation and own position aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, and that was something ingrained into AoL society in a way that doesn't exist in the TA.

 

You seem to have a conception of 'Aes Sedai' as an ideal, rather than as something that's ever actually existed. In fact the only AoL person I can think of that lived in such an ideal way is Kamarile Maradim Nindar, and that worked out just great in the long term.

 

She should be thinking only about what is best for Light, for all people serving Light, like Rand.

 

That's incredibly simplistic. What if those interests are contradictory or she perceives those interests to be contradictory? Even where they aren't she has to make a decision sooner or later about what is best and how to get there, which I'd argue she's done. What is best for the Light is more than just an abstract concept, they do have to decide what that is (which will of course be coloured by their own thoughts and experiences, again they're human), and then actually do something to get there.

 

Actually doing 'what's best' involves thousands of little tiny steps that all have to be thought about, broken down and organised. That's what she's doing, taking the little steps that need to be taken to reach the greater goal as she understands it. I'm not arguing she's always correct, she's a flawed character, but the character and her actions need to be understood in context, we have the benefit of having far more information than she does etc.

Where do you see politics, plotting and climbing in AoL AS before the Hole is bored? It was a society where AS strived to make life of common people better using OP. That is the difference.

[babuada]

No. That is not job of a true AS... Same goes with Egwin and every other preten AS. And I repeat the pretend AS again, because they are so infirior to AoL AS and thinks only about WT instead of serving the People under Light.

 

Yeah, they should be boring a big hole in the Dark One's prison and then breaking the world. Egwene needs to get right on that.

 

Sarcasm aside what are you defining as a 'true' Aes Sedai? From the context of you seem to mean an AoL Aes Sedai? While the AoL is held up as a Utopia (and certainly is compared to the Third Age) what we've actually seen of the AoL Aes Sedai shows that politicing, plotting and climbing existed then too, despite them living with an entirely different set of cultural values and in an entirely different society generally. In the AoL serving the community was serving yourself, you had to serve the community in order to increase personal social status, which was highly valued.

 

That's really not surprising, they were still human after all. And that's not to say they didn't on the whole serve the Light, rather that serving the Light and thinking of their organisation and own position aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, and that was something ingrained into AoL society in a way that doesn't exist in the TA.

 

You seem to have a conception of 'Aes Sedai' as an ideal, rather than as something that's ever actually existed. In fact the only AoL person I can think of that lived in such an ideal way is Kamarile Maradim Nindar, and that worked out just great in the long term.

 

She should be thinking only about what is best for Light, for all people serving Light, like Rand.

 

That's incredibly simplistic. What if those interests are contradictory or she perceives those interests to be contradictory? Even where they aren't she has to make a decision sooner or later about what is best and how to get there, which I'd argue she's done. What is best for the Light is more than just an abstract concept, they do have to decide what that is (which will of course be coloured by their own thoughts and experiences, again they're human), and then actually do something to get there.

 

Actually doing 'what's best' involves thousands of little tiny steps that all have to be thought about, broken down and organised. That's what she's doing, taking the little steps that need to be taken to reach the greater goal as she understands it. I'm not arguing she's always correct, she's a flawed character, but the character and her actions need to be understood in context, we have the benefit of having far more information than she does etc.

And if you are reffering to actions of Forsaken and other darkfriends, then yes they have done bad things. Do we expect AS (pretend as they though) of Third age who claims to serve Light do the same thing as the Forsaken and darkfriends of AoL? I did not think as bad of them yet.

[dwn]

You seem to have a conception of 'Aes Sedai' as an ideal, rather than as something that's ever actually existed. In fact the only AoL person I can think of that lived in such an ideal way is Kamarile Maradim Nindar, and that worked out just great in the long term.

 

That was the funniest thing I've read all day. Thank you.

 

A big piece of evidence that AoL Aes Sedai were into social climbing is the third name bestowed upon 'exemplary' people. The prerequisites for such an honour are surely decided by the culture but it's still a social title.

 

-- dwn

[babuada]

You seem to have a conception of 'Aes Sedai' as an ideal, rather than as something that's ever actually existed. In fact the only AoL person I can think of that lived in such an ideal way is Kamarile Maradim Nindar, and that worked out just great in the long term.

 

That was the funniest thing I've read all day. Thank you.

 

A big piece of evidence that AoL Aes Sedai were into social climbing is the third name bestowed upon 'exemplary' people. The prerequisites for such an honour are surely decided by the culture but it's still a social title.

 

-- dwn

Yes. A social title for exemplary service is what you expect in a society like AoL, not for politicking and plotting like in 3rd age (pretend AS is as good an example as any other kingdoms).

[Kahlika]

And if you are reffering to actions of Forsaken and other darkfriends, then yes they have done bad things. Do we expect AS (pretend as they though) of Third age who claims to serve Light do the same thing as the Forsaken and darkfriends of AoL? I did not think as bad of them yet.

 

No I'm not, although it's hard to refer back to the AoL without mentioning them, as much of our knowledge about the AoL comes from the Forsaken.

 

How about Latra Posae v Lews Therin? That's a Light v Light example of politicking etc.

 

Although that said I don't see why not mention them, all of the Forsaken were AoL Aes Sedai, all bar Mesaana, Moghedien and Balthamel had the third name, most went to the Shadow after hundreds of years of serving the community. They weren't the only Aes Sedai to go to the Dark either, just the ones that survived. There was clearly plenty of selfishness in the AoL Aes Sedai.

 

Crime also clearly existed amongst the Aes Sedai of the AoL, otherwise why would we have things like Binding Rods etc?

 

Another thing we do know is that there was a person who lived as you describe the 'true' Aes Sedai to live. She was Kamarile Maradim Nindar, an ascetic who eschewed politics, lived to serve the Light, help the helpless etc. And she turned to the Shadow upon realising that nobody in the AoL society was able to live up to her own standards. That's certainly suggestive that the idealised society isn't all that it seems on the surface or what has survived through myth into the TA.

 

It's ridiculous to think that all Aes Sedai in the AoL were these idealised, perfect figures, when every time we see one of them, Forsaken or otherwise, they show they're all too human.

 

It was a society where AS strived to make life of common people better using OP. That is the difference.

 

Sure it was a society where Aes Sedai strived to make life better using the OP, but do you honestly think they got nothing out of it and did it out of the goodness of their hearts? Community work was a way of earning personal social position in the AoL, again with the third names etc. Aes Sedai helped the community and thereby earned themselves social recognition/standing and positions of power. I think it's a great system, it encourages people to aid the community by providing incentive, but then I don't think serving the Light, the self and the community are mutually exlusive.

[f3llyn]

And if you are reffering to actions of Forsaken and other darkfriends, then yes they have done bad things. Do we expect AS (pretend as they though) of Third age who claims to serve Light do the same thing as the Forsaken and darkfriends of AoL? I did not think as bad of them yet.

 

No I'm not, although it's hard to refer back to the AoL without mentioning them, as much of our knowledge about the AoL comes from the Forsaken.

 

How about Latra Posae v Lews Therin? That's a Light v Light example of politicking etc.

 

Although that said I don't see why not mention them, all of the Forsaken were AoL Aes Sedai, all bar Mesaana had the third name, most went to the Shadow after hundreds of years of serving the community. They weren't the only Aes Sedai to go to the Dark either, just the ones that survived. There was clearly plenty of selfishness in the AoL Aes Sedai.

 

Crime also clearly existed amongst the Aes Sedai of the AoL, otherwise why would we have things like Binding Rods etc?

 

Another thing we do know is that there was a person who lived as you describe the 'true' Aes Sedai to live. She was Kamarile Maradim Nindar, an ascetic who eschewed politics, lived to serve the Light, help the helpless etc. And she turned to the Shadow upon realising that nobody in the AoL society was able to live up to her own standards. That's certainly suggestive that the idealised society isn't all that it seems on the surface or what has survived through myth into the TA.

 

It's ridiculous to think that all Aes Sedai in the AoL were these idealised, perfect figures, when every time we see one of them, Forsaken or otherwise, they show they're all too human.

 

It was a society where AS strived to make life of common people better using OP. That is the difference.

 

Sure it was a society where Aes Sedai strived to make life better using the OP, but do you honestly think they got nothing out of it and did it out of the goodness of their hearts? Community work was a way of earning personal social position in the AoL, again with the third names etc. Aes Sedai helped the community and thereby earned themselves social recognition/standing and positions of power. I think it's a great system, it encourages people to aid the community by providing incentive, but then I don't think serving the Light, the self and the community are mutually exlusive.

Thank you for these posts. I was going to try to tackle what you did in the Rand thread but you did a much better job of it than I would. But that guy I think is reading a different book than us.

 

I don't mean to offend.. it's just I don't understand how some people come to the conclusions they do.

[babuada]

And if you are reffering to actions of Forsaken and other darkfriends, then yes they have done bad things. Do we expect AS (pretend as they though) of Third age who claims to serve Light do the same thing as the Forsaken and darkfriends of AoL? I did not think as bad of them yet.

 

No I'm not, although it's hard to refer back to the AoL without mentioning them, as much of our knowledge about the AoL comes from the Forsaken.

 

How about Latra Posae v Lews Therin? That's a Light v Light example of politicking etc.

 

Although that said I don't see why not mention them, all of the Forsaken were AoL Aes Sedai, all bar Mesaana had the third name, most went to the Shadow after hundreds of years of serving the community. They weren't the only Aes Sedai to go to the Dark either, just the ones that survived. There was clearly plenty of selfishness in the AoL Aes Sedai.

 

Crime also clearly existed amongst the Aes Sedai of the AoL, otherwise why would we have things like Binding Rods etc?

 

Another thing we do know is that there was a person who lived as you describe the 'true' Aes Sedai to live. She was Kamarile Maradim Nindar, an ascetic who eschewed politics, lived to serve the Light, help the helpless etc. And she turned to the Shadow upon realising that nobody in the AoL society was able to live up to her own standards. That's certainly suggestive that the idealised society isn't all that it seems on the surface or what has survived through myth into the TA.

 

It's ridiculous to think that all Aes Sedai in the AoL were these idealised, perfect figures, when every time we see one of them, Forsaken or otherwise, they show they're all too human.

 

It was a society where AS strived to make life of common people better using OP. That is the difference.

 

Sure it was a society where Aes Sedai strived to make life better using the OP, but do you honestly think they got nothing out of it and did it out of the goodness of their hearts? Community work was a way of earning personal social position in the AoL, again with the third names etc. Aes Sedai helped the community and thereby earned themselves social recognition/standing and positions of power. I think it's a great system, it encourages people to aid the community by providing incentive, but then I don't think serving the Light, the self and the community are mutually exlusive.

Thank you for these posts. I was going to try to tackle what you did in the Rand thread but you did a much better job of it than I would. But that guy I think is reading a different book than us.

 

I don't mean to offend.. it's just I don't understand how some people come to the conclusions they do.

Just by reading ToM and the actions of new Rand there you can come to the simple conclusion of how good AS in time of AoL would have been.

[babuada]

And if you are reffering to actions of Forsaken and other darkfriends, then yes they have done bad things. Do we expect AS (pretend as they though) of Third age who claims to serve Light do the same thing as the Forsaken and darkfriends of AoL? I did not think as bad of them yet.

 

No I'm not, although it's hard to refer back to the AoL without mentioning them, as much of our knowledge about the AoL comes from the Forsaken.

 

How about Latra Posae v Lews Therin? That's a Light v Light example of politicking etc.

 

Although that said I don't see why not mention them, all of the Forsaken were AoL Aes Sedai, all bar Mesaana had the third name, most went to the Shadow after hundreds of years of serving the community. They weren't the only Aes Sedai to go to the Dark either, just the ones that survived. There was clearly plenty of selfishness in the AoL Aes Sedai.

 

Crime also clearly existed amongst the Aes Sedai of the AoL, otherwise why would we have things like Binding Rods etc?

 

Another thing we do know is that there was a person who lived as you describe the 'true' Aes Sedai to live. She was Kamarile Maradim Nindar, an ascetic who eschewed politics, lived to serve the Light, help the helpless etc. And she turned to the Shadow upon realising that nobody in the AoL society was able to live up to her own standards. That's certainly suggestive that the idealised society isn't all that it seems on the surface or what has survived through myth into the TA.

 

It's ridiculous to think that all Aes Sedai in the AoL were these idealised, perfect figures, when every time we see one of them, Forsaken or otherwise, they show they're all too human.

 

It was a society where AS strived to make life of common people better using OP. That is the difference.

 

Sure it was a society where Aes Sedai strived to make life better using the OP, but do you honestly think they got nothing out of it and did it out of the goodness of their hearts? Community work was a way of earning personal social position in the AoL, again with the third names etc. Aes Sedai helped the community and thereby earned themselves social recognition/standing and positions of power. I think it's a great system, it encourages people to aid the community by providing incentive, but then I don't think serving the Light, the self and the community are mutually exlusive.

I agree that AS in AoL were not doing charity. If you have some strength, you can use to do some community job done (public service) and get paid. Or you can use it to bully common people without strength, plot against them to gain power, etc. (The way pretend AS of 3rd age do).