Discuss Egwene

[Darth Krewl]

There HAS to be some change, seriously, there HAS TO. All throughout the series Aes Sedai incompitence has been a theme, and how the Aes Sedai need to change has been hinted at and more.

 

RJ (and now Brandon) IMO are working on the main theme of co-operation and balance. The fact that people need to work together. Males and Females, Saidin and Saidar. At the moment, the bloody white Tower is so backwards after the cleansing they have to shield the Dragon Reborn before he meets the Amyrlin. Its kind of like a country nowdays who still approves of slavery.

 

Look at the Aes Sedai. The forsaken think them children, a fraction of their former glory. Everyone in the world basically distrusts them, they need the three oaths for people to interact with them and even then they dont trust them. WE see other female channeler societies exalted, not feared and mistrusted in their nations. we constantly reminded of the vices of the Aes Sedai way and finally saw their full incompitence in tGS where a raid nearly destroyed the tower.

 

Look at Rand's change. He was becomming a modern Aes Sedai, cold and distant (even before the evil bits) and pushed the world away. Then his epiphany he realizes the importance of people and emotion, like he says "Tell Logain I was wrong. We are men." He is now 420 odd years old and remembers the AoL when Aes Sedai were "perfect". He tells Nynaeve not to let them "ruin" her. Because like the Forsaken, he knows they are going down the wrong path.

 

Look now at Nynaeve's testing. That says it all. The Aes Sedai need to change.

 

Somehow, despite all Egwene's progress in tGS, now that she is Amyrlin, she has become modern Aes Sedai to the core. Which. like her or not, NEEDS TO CHANGE.

 

IMO when Rand ignores her "protests" against him breaking the seals and he tells her he is going to do it anyway, she will "force her hand" and try to shield him and keep him captive in the tower.

 

At that moment, the armies gathered realise, "What the hell is that arrogant little witch doing? Thats the DR, and his arguments make sense" and all turn against her, and stand united against the white tower, who have been repressing them with fear of channeling and say "WE are fed up of your crap". Then hopefully Egwene at least has her epiphany and realises "What the hell am I doing? This isnt right, I should listen to Nynaeve."

 

Probs not whats happening, but I would like to see it go down like that.

 

If Egwene does not at least acknowledge Rand's wisdom and superiority (because, lets face it, Rand is the wisest man alive now) I will really be annoyed, If RJ expected us to believe that Egwene as she is, is a Hero, and perfect character, I will be really really annoyed.

 

This because she is exactly like pre-epiphany Rand (without the evil) which everyone agrees was bad. So why should she be perfect like this when Rand was hated and a criminal for doing the exact same thing?

 

I couldn't agree more with this. Especially, the parts in bold mirror my exact feelings. You summed it up perfectly well.

[Hopefire]

If Egwene does not at least acknowledge Rand's wisdom and superiority (because, lets face it, Rand is the wisest man alive now) I will really be annoyed, If RJ expected us to believe that Egwene as she is, is a Hero, and perfect character, I will be really really annoyed.

 

I think that if Rand, as he is now, was told that he was the wisest man alive his response would be to smile gently and laugh, and say something about how others around him are wiser.

[Ltsegarra]

First off all I like Rand just as much as everyone else, however saying Rand is the wisest man alive is stretching it. At the very best he has the wisdom of a man centuries dead. How wise was Lews Therin Thelamon when he originally "bored" the hole? Rand has certainly gained in "experience" and expertise, yet wisdom isnt a function of how smart one is but how one deals with the world. I'm reminded of an old saying..." a smart man would say it's raining, a wiseman would get out from the rain".

With that being said, Rand has controlled "access" to LTT expertise, but we've yet to see what wisdom is being shown. I always come back to the fundamental misunderstanding of what is the Dark One truly? Is it a dark creature, a dark Demi-god, a dark-god, a dark ideal...etc. From my understanding at the very least the Dark One is something akin to the creator in scope. How can human beings truly understand the goals of a creator or dark one?

 

I'll just remind you of what another poster reminded me about. Originally, Lews Therin had an Egwene-like character named Padra in the past. LTT also thought he knew what was best for the world and the end results was the Hundred years of madness. I think this same dilemma is going to be play out between Egwene/White tower and Rand/LTT. Perhaps well bee offered a flashback to the original argument and see where Rand can repair the schism.

 

I pretty much like all the characters as written. Nynaeve was close to being dislike though, for her insistence on treating the main characters as children. Egwene has impressed me for her strength of character and her willingness to sacrifice herself for the "Sisterhood". True Jordan wrote Egewene a bit slutty during her time with Perrin and the Traveling Folks, but she turned out ok. In fact, I like Egwene even more because she was able to face up to the Dragon Reborn and challenge him...even if ultimately proven wrong. So many other characters turn lame ducks when confronted by the mere fact of being in the same room as Rand. Even powerful Nynaeve bends to Rands will. Egwene shares the same characteristics and political skill as Cadsaune without the life experience. Honestly though, what other 18year old could have face the things Egwene faced and will face in the future and kept unbroken.

[randsc]

First, LTT didn't create the Bore. Honestly, and I am seriously not trying to be unkind, I don't know how you can evaluate his (and therefore Rand's) wisdom if you didn't know this.

 

LTT saved the world. Don't kid yourself about that. In this sense, he was absolutely right to think he knew best. As far as we know, Padra had no plan. She just thought that LTT's was, "too dangerous." Just like Egwene.

 

The taint and the breaking were unfortunate, but if the bore hadn't been sealed, however imperfectly, the universe would have ended.

[Ltsegarra]

I stand corrected. Im due for another read through of the entire series(gonna save it till the release of the final novel though). I simply meant that LTT in his first incarnation was prideful and didn't take heed of others perspective. LTT just "knew" better and alienated people like the whole female side of saidar. Honestly, we don't "know" what would have happened if in a different universe he did have female help. Perhaps both sides of the True Source would have been "tainted". We're dealing with 2 different and distinct things. First is the bore and second is the nature of the original seals of the DO's prison. Perhaps, Egwene is simply favoring a patch job and reseal the bore. As far as the original seals I don't think it's going to be something as easy as crazy glue.

 

In my mind I'm predicting something the requires a sacrifice of "light and dark". Why were the original 13 forsaken "trapped" also? Were they the required "dark patch" needed for the seal? Whatever the case simply saying I'm the Dragon Reborn and youve got to listen to me, isnt enough of a justification. If that was the case, Jordan could have wrapped up this whole storyline in2 or 3 books, instead Jordan created a weave of main characters who are all important ti winning or losing for that matter Tarmon Gaidon. Jordan wouldn't have created Egwene since "The Eye of the World" if she wasnt critical to the storyline. If Egwene wasn't critical she was still pretty entertaining none the less.

[bysomy]

I pretty much like all the characters as written. Nynaeve was close to being dislike though, for her insistence on treating the main characters as children. Egwene has impressed me for her strength of character and her willingness to sacrifice herself for the "Sisterhood". True Jordan wrote Egewene a bit slutty during her time with Perrin and the Traveling Folks, but she turned out ok. In fact, I like Egwene even more because she was able to face up to the Dragon Reborn and challenge him...even if ultimately proven wrong. So many other characters turn lame ducks when confronted by the mere fact of being in the same room as Rand. Even powerful Nynaeve bends to Rands will. Egwene shares the same characteristics and political skill as Cadsaune without the life experience. Honestly though, what other 18year old could have face the things Egwene faced and will face in the future and kept unbroken.

 

It depends on what Rand you are talking about. If Egwene met Dark Rand, she'd probably wet herself. Nynaeve didn't bend to Rand's will, she THOUGHT about what he said, and realized he was right. I don't like Egwene for going against Rand WITHOUT THINKING about her own solution to the problem first. AND Rand is the literal will of the pattern,I dont know why she can't see that. He is the prohesised savior of the world, who apparently sacrifices himself every turning for the good of the world. She should at least consider that he may be right, or come up with a solution. And what did Egwene face compared to Rand? Politics and a few spankings.

[Hadilmir]

I stand corrected. Im due for another read through of the entire series(gonna save it till the release of the final novel though).

 

Also, I expect you and randsc are talking about Latra, not Padra. Latra was the one who brought about the Fateful Concord; Padra will be Rand and Aviendha's daughter.

[Darth Krewl]

Whatever the case simply saying I'm the Dragon Reborn and youve got to listen to me, isnt enough of a justification. If that was the case, Jordan could have wrapped up this whole storyline in2 or 3 books, instead Jordan created a weave of main characters who are all important ti winning or losing for that matter Tarmon Gaidon. Jordan wouldn't have created Egwene since "The Eye of the World" if she wasnt critical to the storyline. If Egwene wasn't critical she was still pretty entertaining none the less.

 

Granted. But then again, that means the same logic applies to Egwene al'Vere. Because, from my PoV, it would seem like she is the one who's going like, "hey, listen! I'm the Amyrlin Seat! The most powerful woman in the known world, so you better listen to me and do as I say!"

 

I didn't see Rand sending letters to all of the rulers in his continent, pressing and demanding their support to their plan. Frankly, Rand stands outside anyone's jurisdiction and could've done whatever the hell he pleased, w/o consulting anyone, just like he did when he decided to cleanse the taint. If he spoke to Egwene was out of courtesy and in the spirit of cooperation between channelers, more than anything else. At least, to my understanding.

 

Also, while Rand al'Thor may not be the wisest man in his world (he is to me, but that's a matter of personal interpretation and he's certainly not the wisest character in the history of fantasy, which is another story, IMO), he is far wiser, smarter, more experienced and educated than any 18 yr. old, whether it's a girl or a boy and regardless of their origins (though Egwene is still nothing but a young and narrow-minded country girl in many respects) now that he's integrated all of his memories and accepted his past incarnation as Lews Therin. IMO, that should be obvious.

 

Egwene is entertaining? Well, I would think her whole odyssey after capture was very interesting, yes. Definitely some of the most enticing chapters in KoD and TGS for my taste, but as far as ToM goes, I found her arc one of the most boring, except for a few highlights, such as her verbal confrontation with Rand and her duel vs. Mesaana and the Blacks in Tel'aran'rhiod. At least, IMO.

[draconian]

I stand corrected. Im due for another read through of the entire series(gonna save it till the release of the final novel though). I simply meant that LTT in his first incarnation was prideful and didn't take heed of others perspective. LTT just "knew" better and alienated people like the whole female side of saidar. Honestly, we don't "know" what would have happened if in a different universe he did have female help. Perhaps both sides of the True Source would have been "tainted". We're dealing with 2 different and distinct things. First is the bore and second is the nature of the original seals of the DO's prison. Perhaps, Egwene is simply favoring a patch job and reseal the bore. As far as the original seals I don't think it's going to be something as easy as crazy glue.

Read the The Strike at Shayol Ghul and u will see that LTT gave the others aes sedai as much time as he could and tried to get them to realize it was too late to go with thier plan and when that failed he launch his assault and prevent the fall of everything including the very weapons that latra was building to the shadows forces. LTT didnt do what he did out of pride but out of desperation.

[Kahlika]

First, LTT didn't create the Bore. Honestly, and I am seriously not trying to be unkind, I don't know how you can evaluate his (and therefore Rand's) wisdom if you didn't know this.

 

LTT saved the world. Don't kid yourself about that. In this sense, he was absolutely right to think he knew best. As far as we know, Padra had no plan. She just thought that LTT's was, "too dangerous." Just like Egwene.

 

The taint and the breaking were unfortunate, but if the bore hadn't been sealed, however imperfectly, the universe would have ended.

 

I'm not trying to be unkind, but I really don't think you're in a position to evaluate the actions around the sealing of the Bore if you don't know Latra's name ^.^

 

The Strike at Shayol Ghul makes it clear the sealing of the bore was intended to bring a quick end to the War of the Shadow. While I'm not saying the war was a good thing it also isn't the equivalent of the entire unmaking of the pattern.

 

The Bore itself had been unsealed for anywhere from 50 to a hundred odd years at that point. Why would the universe have immediately ended if LTT hadn't arrogantly rushed into (his words not mine) the sealing at that precise moment? The simple answer is it wouldn't have, and in rushing things LTT created a chain of events that lead to the total destruction of civisation and the near extinction of humanity.

 

Hailing LTT as the saviour of the world and Latra as the big meanie who blocked him with no reason is just simply untrue. The detractors had the weight of a lot of evidence that LTT's plan was problematic and unlikely to work behind them, something LTT acknowledged at the time although he took the position it was the only chance and thus worth the high risk. An attitude he himself latter describes as arrogance.

 

Also I'd love for someone to explain this logic to me. People claiming LTT had to immediately run out and seal the bore or the world would have ended also claim it's totally fine that Rand is going to break the seals and open the bore. If leaving the bore open for longer was going to be the end of the world and it needed sealing immediately fine, but at the same time doesn't that make reopening the seals hugely dangerous? Or conversley it's ok for Rand to break the seals and that won't immediately bring about the end of the world, but in that case LTT did actually need to rush into things as he did? People seem to be trying to have it both ways.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, Ltsegarra, I am not trying to be offensive, but its best to research or at least have a look at your information before you post. Almost all the info is completely wrong in your post. (not opinion, but fact)

 

Lews Therin was the most accomplished man in the AOL. HE was chosen to lead the Aes sedai and armies against the DO.

 

This is a backward age. Its much like Albert Einstein travelling back to the Middle Ages. He would be the wisest/smartest.

 

Perhaps i did choose the wrong word.(although imo he IS the wisest) But you cant doubt that he is the smartest and best person to deal with the DO. Again, i point out comparison between the 21st century and the middle ages. Egwene does not even know a fraction of what Rand/LTT knows.

 

Some argue that there was no war until the WOP in the AoL. This is true, and I agree, LTT probably wasnt a better general than Mat and his memories. But facing the DO, LTT knows more than anyone. Even though the thrid agers have faced war and shadowspawn, the DO hasnt been involved. The DO has only begun to break the seals in the past 2 years. The bore was completely ripped open for approximately 110 years (100 before the WOP, 10 in the WoP). So LTT knows best about the DO.

 

Anyway, Egwene didnt know that he was integrated with LTT, and she has reason to doubt the veracity of this. Her methods in ToM were arrogant and foolish in retrospect, but she could only work with the information she had, so Im not slamming her about that, even though i was annoyed to see what happened.

 

As Hadilmir pointed out, Egwene is most likely Latra reborn.

 

This is the problem I have with RJ's view on Egwene, who is supposed to be a Mary Sue character. The whole series has been working towards the theme of co-operation as I stated earlier. Both Saidar and Saidin must work together to seal the bore. Saidar would have been tainted aswell beforehand, but that was only because of the precise sequence of events that played out. It is exteremely unlikely that the DO could taint the source unless Rand does the EXACT same thing as he did last time.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

 

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

I point this out to say that the whole series has been pointing to the fact that women and men must work together. that is the crucial point to re-sealing the bore effectively.

 

Thats why I worry. IF Egwene is all Mary Sue at the Gathering at FoM, and she "wins" AGAIN, the debate against Rand, it goes against everything the series has worked up to be, which is working together.

 

This is why I say Egwene needs to acknowledge Rand's superior understanding of sealing the bore, or at least treat him as an EQUAL. Which at the moment, she thinks of him as a bloody CRIMINAL. She is ready to "force her hand" which can only mean shield Rand and control him. So Egwene NEEEDS A FREAKIN REALITY CHECK. SHE IS WRONG.

 

No matter how much you like her, she NEEDS to work with Rand as an EQUAL. Not as her being superior, and not him being superior. Just equals co-operating.

 

So if EGwene manages to "get her way" yet again in Mary Sue style and RJ expects us to like her as a hero character, thhen it is complete crap.

 

I have faith that RJ would not make such a big mistake, but i worry, because of Egwene's perfect, do-no-wrong history.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I don't think I've ever thought of some characters, Rand & Egwene specifically, as being arrogant in the sense of the word being meaning having an exaggerated opinion of one's importance. Rand's the Dragon Reborn who holds the fate of existence itself upon his shoulders. I'm pretty sure there's no way you could exaggerate how important he is, whether it's from his own point of view or that of others. It makes me think of people who might gripe that about a certain person thinking "they're all that"...But, in this case Rand really is, all that. He's so ridiculously important that I don't think it qualifies as arrogance for him to know, and have this opinion of himself - because it's not exaggerated.

 

As for the aspect of arrogance, with someone having an excessively favorable opinion of their own ability, pertaining to Rand...Two events stick out like a sore thumb, to me: When he uses Callandor against the Seanchan - And when trying to Ta'varen the result he desires from Tuon.

 

Having never known of the flaw to Callandor prior to his action though, can you really say Rand was being arrogant in trying to use it? I think it's the flaw in the sword, and subsequent negative result of Rand losing control, that leads to some readers perception of arrogance. The incidence with Tuon though, THhhhaat's the purest isolated impression of arrogance that I have ever gotten from Rand, because as a reader you can tell without a doubt that he was thinking he could ta'varen the result he wanted - except this time the pattern said NNnnnnope! Other than that one incident there's not a whole lot of times where you can say THERE, ARROGANT PRICK TO THE MAX! Mostly, because I say that it's not arrogance if you can back it up - and, Rand does.

 

On Egwene: Every challenge, task, and hardship she's ever faced, she has emerged from victorious, and has become stronger for it. The one time something's actually straight up given to her, is when the Salidar AS make her Amyrlin. She's totally the hard nosed player that works their rear end off every day, puts up with all the bullcrap she has to go through, and at the end of the day has the team voting her Captain.

 

Honestly, derogatorily, I feel like the writing of Egwene, and resulting feelings that she's arrogant as all hell, are the result of hitting a huge downslope from the way Jordan wrote her, to how she comes off with the scripting of Sanderson.

 

But, c'est la vie...

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

The Strike at Shayol Ghul makes it clear the sealing of the bore was intended to bring a quick end to the War of the Shadow. While I'm not saying the war was a good thing it also isn't the equivalent of the entire unmaking of the pattern.

 

The Bore itself had been unsealed for anywhere from 50 to a hundred odd years at that point. Why would the universe have immediately ended if LTT hadn't arrogantly rushed into (his words not mine) the sealing at that precise moment? The simple answer is it wouldn't have, and in rushing things LTT created a chain of events that lead to the total destruction of civisation and the near extinction of humanity.

 

Hailing LTT as the saviour of the world and Latra as the big meanie who blocked him with no reason is just simply untrue. The detractors had the weight of a lot of evidence that LTT's plan was problematic and unlikely to work behind them, something LTT acknowledged at the time although he took the position it was the only chance and thus worth the high risk. An attitude he himself latter describes as arrogance.

 

Also I'd love for someone to explain this logic to me. People claiming LTT had to immediately run out and seal the bore or the world would have ended also claim it's totally fine that Rand is going to break the seals and open the bore. If leaving the bore open for longer was going to be the end of the world and it needed sealing immediately fine, but at the same time doesn't that make reopening the seals hugely dangerous? Or conversley it's ok for Rand to break the seals and that won't immediately bring about the end of the world, but in that case LTT did actually need to rush into things as he did? People seem to be trying to have it both ways.

 

1. Paaran Disen was about to be destroyed. The Light was on the brink of losing. ONly a few days away from total defeat. I suggest you also read up on the history. LTT, while ORIGINALLY when the plan was formed, he knew it was arrogance, and noted this. However, AT THE TIME OF THE SEALING, the shadow was on the brink of victory, THERE WAS NO MORE TIME. So yes, LTT did save the world.

 

To the second point. YEs, As the world was days away from destruction, LTT had to. your wrong there. And it has been prophesied that Rand has to break the seals, or have you forgotten Herid Fel and the Karatheon Cycle? You seriously cant doubt that Rand is wrong on this point? If so, thats just willfull ignorance.

 

And yes, Rand does have to break them now. In case you didnt notice, the Borderlands have been overrun by trollocs, Caemlyn is burning and the shadow is in full swing. The Aes Sedai havent been working on a plan to re-seal the bore in 3000 years, or at least the 2 years when they knew the seals were crumbling. There is NO MORE TIME to sit around. The DO is about to break free anyway. I dont see how hard a concept that is.,

 

Edit: Sorry if this sounds a little agressive, it isnt meant to be. the Caps are just to highlight key points. I forgot about bold type. So yeah, it may seem testy, but it is meant to be good natured.

[Jon Paul]

Kahlika, when Lews Therin struck at Shayol Ghul the Shadow's Armies were mere weeks away from over-running the last bastions of Light-resistance. Sammael and Demandred had Lews Therin by the throat. The threat to the Light at the time wasn't the Dark One directly, not exactly, but the forces of the Shadow.

 

If Lews Therin had not struck then the armies of the Shadow would have swamped the Lews Therin and it would have been over. The Shadow would have reined supreme with no opposition and from there it wouldn't have been long until the Prison was shattered and the Wheel groaned it's last rotation.

 

Lews Therin saved the Pattern once. He's going to do it again.

[randsc]

I stand corrected. Im due for another read through of the entire series(gonna save it till the release of the final novel though).

 

Also, I expect you and randsc are talking about Latra, not Padra. Latra was the one who brought about the Fateful Concord; Padra will be Rand and Aviendha's daughter.

 

That's correct. I couldn't remember the name, and didn't feel like looking it up.

[Jon Paul]

1. Paaran Disen was about to be destroyed. The Light was on the brink of losing.

 

Paaran Disen had already been shattered. The Hall of the Servants had been torn down brick by brick. Aginor walked its halls and tasted the sweet aroma of victory. The only victory the Light pulled from that sad event as I understand was that Lews Therin kicked Ishamael's arse at the Gates.

[Barid Bel Medar]

1. Paaran Disen was about to be destroyed. The Light was on the brink of losing.

 

Paaran Disen had already been shattered. The Hall of the Servants had been torn down brick by brick. Aginor walked its halls and tasted the sweet aroma of victory. The only victory the Light pulled from that sad event as I understand was that Lews Therin kicked Ishamael's arse at the Gates.

 

I thought that it was only the Hall of Servants thhat was attacked and that LTT actually took back the city when he beat Ishamael at the Gates. So even though the hall was destroyed, the Light still held Paaran Disen.

 

I dont know, all I know is that the Light was weeks/days away from total defeat.

[moratcorlm]

Both the Hall of the Servants and Paaran Disen were still extant in Jonai's time, during the Breaking, in TSR26. Though Moghedien's comment about "the sweetness of victory at Paaran Disen" in TFOH18 suggests that it had been lost during the war, perhaps.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Both the Hall of the Servants and Paaran Disen were still extant in Jonai's time, during the Breaking, in TSR26. Though Moghedien's comment about "the sweetness of victory at Paaran Disen" in TFOH18 suggests that it had been lost during the war, perhaps.

 

Yeah, I think it was lost then Re-taken.

 

Anyway, lets not get too off topic.

 

THe point is that Egwene needs to accept Rand's plan. Because it is the correct one for reasons list above from me and other posters.

 

That means working together with men (Rand) as equals. Egwene needs to have that realization, hate or like her. It HAS to happen.

 

 

That or she DOESNT have this realization and gets humiliated and pulled down like Elaida. Either option.

[Durinax]

I think rand is planning to humiliate egwene and it will be glorious!

[randsc]

First, LTT didn't create the Bore. Honestly, and I am seriously not trying to be unkind, I don't know how you can evaluate his (and therefore Rand's) wisdom if you didn't know this.

 

LTT saved the world. Don't kid yourself about that. In this sense, he was absolutely right to think he knew best. As far as we know, Padra had no plan. She just thought that LTT's was, "too dangerous." Just like Egwene.

 

The taint and the breaking were unfortunate, but if the bore hadn't been sealed, however imperfectly, the universe would have ended.

 

I'm not trying to be unkind, but I really don't think you're in a position to evaluate the actions around the sealing of the Bore if you don't know Latra's name ^.^

 

The Strike at Shayol Ghul makes it clear the sealing of the bore was intended to bring a quick end to the War of the Shadow. While I'm not saying the war was a good thing it also isn't the equivalent of the entire unmaking of the pattern.

 

The Bore itself had been unsealed for anywhere from 50 to a hundred odd years at that point. Why would the universe have immediately ended if LTT hadn't arrogantly rushed into (his words not mine) the sealing at that precise moment? The simple answer is it wouldn't have, and in rushing things LTT created a chain of events that lead to the total destruction of civisation and the near extinction of humanity.

 

Hailing LTT as the saviour of the world and Latra as the big meanie who blocked him with no reason is just simply untrue. The detractors had the weight of a lot of evidence that LTT's plan was problematic and unlikely to work behind them, something LTT acknowledged at the time although he took the position it was the only chance and thus worth the high risk. An attitude he himself latter describes as arrogance.

 

Also I'd love for someone to explain this logic to me. People claiming LTT had to immediately run out and seal the bore or the world would have ended also claim it's totally fine that Rand is going to break the seals and open the bore. If leaving the bore open for longer was going to be the end of the world and it needed sealing immediately fine, but at the same time doesn't that make reopening the seals hugely dangerous? Or conversley it's ok for Rand to break the seals and that won't immediately bring about the end of the world, but in that case LTT did actually need to rush into things as he did? People seem to be trying to have it both ways.

 

The name was wrong. Whoopsie.

 

As has been pointed out above, the Bore needed to be sealed at more or less exactly that moment, or the Chosen would have won the war and released the DO.

[Jon Paul]

Aah, seems I was wrong about Paaran Disen. Still, I doubt the Forsaken would have stuck simply with the Hall. The place was probably a mess all-over but I can see why the Light would want to hold on.

[Darth Krewl]

Also I'd love for someone to explain this logic to me. People claiming LTT had to immediately run out and seal the bore or the world would have ended also claim it's totally fine that Rand is going to break the seals and open the bore. If leaving the bore open for longer was going to be the end of the world and it needed sealing immediately fine, but at the same time doesn't that make reopening the seals hugely dangerous? Or conversley it's ok for Rand to break the seals and that won't immediately bring about the end of the world, but in that case LTT did actually need to rush into things as he did? People seem to be trying to have it both ways.

 

Whether the sealing of the Bore to end the War of Power was right or wrong, the Dragon has admitted that it was a mistake. So, it's not about people wanting it both ways, I'd think, but about the Dragon rectifying that mistake.

 

THe point is that Egwene needs to accept Rand's plan. Because it is the correct one for reasons list above from me and other posters.

 

That means working together with men (Rand) as equals. Egwene needs to have that realization, hate or like her. It HAS to happen.

 

 

That or she DOESNT have this realization and gets humiliated and pulled down like Elaida. Either option.

 

I think this is the reason for the Seanchan attack on the White Tower. I believe that should be such a grievous blow to Aes Sedai pride (especially Egwene) that it should be the final push in the right direction, even if it's 'cause those who avoid capture/death at the hands of the Seanchan have no more choice, but to ally with the men, just like Pevara's group is being forced by circumstance to join with Androl's.

 

IMO, that's but a microcosm of how dire circumstances may bring men and women together, based on similar situations. In short, a major blow should shock Egwene not into submission, but to see reason, at least.

[Jon Paul]

As Hadilmir pointed out, Egwene is most likely Latra reborn.

 

I don't necessarily see why Egwene has to specifically be Latra reborn. Their roles will roughly be the same but the soul doesn't have to be. I find this almost an annoying a suggestion as Elayne being Ilyena Moerelle reborn .

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also I'd love for someone to explain this logic to me. People claiming LTT had to immediately run out and seal the bore or the world would have ended also claim it's totally fine that Rand is going to break the seals and open the bore. If leaving the bore open for longer was going to be the end of the world and it needed sealing immediately fine, but at the same time doesn't that make reopening the seals hugely dangerous? Or conversley it's ok for Rand to break the seals and that won't immediately bring about the end of the world, but in that case LTT did actually need to rush into things as he did? People seem to be trying to have it both ways.

 

Whether the sealing of the Bore to end the War of Power was right or wrong, the Dragon has admitted that it was a mistake. So, it's not about people wanting it both ways, I'd think, but about the Dragon rectifying that mistake.

 

THe point is that Egwene needs to accept Rand's plan. Because it is the correct one for reasons list above from me and other posters.

 

That means working together with men (Rand) as equals. Egwene needs to have that realization, hate or like her. It HAS to happen.

 

 

That or she DOESNT have this realization and gets humiliated and pulled down like Elaida. Either option.

 

I think this is the reason for the Seanchan attack on the White Tower. I believe that should be such a grievous blow to Aes Sedai pride (especially Egwene) that it should be the final push in the right direction, even if it's 'cause those who avoid capture/death at the hands of the Seanchan have no more choice, but to ally with the men, just like Pevara's group is being forced by circumstance to join with Androl's.

 

IMO, that's but a microcosm of how dire circumstances may bring men and women together, based on similar situations. In short, a major blow should shock Egwene not into submission, but to see reason, at least.

 

Yes, I agree, that seems likely.

 

I also find it strange how all the "Egwene lovers" automatically react to her faults being pointed out as people want to see her pulled down, humiliated and punished.

 

Thats not (at least I) want to see. She doesnt need to be humiliated nor her position taken or degraded. All she needs to do is take a step down and be a bit more humble (like Rand has just done) and admit equality between men and women channelers and work together as equals. She needs to stop trying to dominate Rand and trying to "force her hand" and accept him as her equal and work with him. Together, the Dragon and Amyrlin can be a very powerful team. But first she needs to stop thinking about controlling and getting him to do what the women (Aes Sedai) want him to.

 

I dont see how that is wrong? Women and men need to work together to win yes? Rand is her equal yes? It doesnt degrade her, nor lower her status. So i dont see why Egwene lovers would feel the need to defend her when its just something she needs to realize.