Discuss Egwene

[theseeker2654]

I dont hate Egwene, but it just scares me that an 18 year old child holds the highest office of the land. Can you imagine having a teenage president in the US? That would be a nightmare. I mean, how is she supposed to lead properly and make tough, life or death decisions when she is still trying to figure out who she really is? It was a mistake of epic proportions for the rebel AS to choose her as their puppet Amyrlin, IMO.

[randsc]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this make her a bit more agreeable.

 

It worked for Nynaeve, she's been a lot less bitchy since she got married. Though of course she was always a much better person than Egwene.

 

I think what really worked for Nynaeve was the Sea Folk marriage custom whereby whichever partner has the right to command in public, is commanded in private.

 

Granted, her blushes hint that Lan's commands may have a sexual component.

 

Mostly, I just love this whole line of discussion for the spluttering outrage it will cause in some quarters.

[f3llyn]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this make her a bit more agreeable.

 

It worked for Nynaeve, she's been a lot less bitchy since she got married. Though of course she was always a much better person than Egwene.

 

I think what really worked for Nynaeve was the Sea Folk marriage custom whereby whichever partner has the right to command in public, is commanded in private.

 

Granted, her blushes hint that Lan's commands may have a sexual component.

 

Mostly, I just love this whole line of discussion for the spluttering outrage it will cause in some quarters.

Well if you read New Spring you'll know that Lan has a lot of uh... experience.. in that area. Almost as much as he does with his sword.

[Locke]

There's no need to get down on Gawyn here. I know he was kinda annoying in the first twelve or so books, but at least his irrationality was rational. *cough Egwene attempting to leave Perrin, a ta'veren crucial to the Last Battle and hunted by the Shadow, tied up in the middle of a fight against Forsaken and Black Ajah cough* And he was decent in this book anyway, regardless of Egwene. Besides, he killed three Bloodknives in combat and then fell to the floor bleeding from dozens of wounds. You just can't disparage that. Too epic.

[Hadilmir]

There's no need to get down on Gawyn here. I know he was kinda annoying in the first twelve or so books, but at least his irrationality was rational. *cough Egwene attempting to leave Perrin, a ta'veren crucial to the Last Battle and hunted by the Shadow, tied up in the middle of a fight against Forsaken and Black Ajah cough* And he was decent in this book anyway, regardless of Egwene. Besides, he killed three Bloodknives in combat and then fell to the floor bleeding from dozens of wounds. You just can't disparage that. Too epic.

You're right, I can't really come up with an argument against Gawyn's awesomeness in ToM. I'm not sure I still trust Brandon's "Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is" comment, he fought three of the world's greatest assassins and won...

 

Anyways, the Egwene part has already been addressed-

At that point Egwene knew three things-

 

1. People cannot exit the Dream at the present time

 

2. There are incredibly dangerous people hunting her

 

3. Perrin, her friend who always tried to protect her, has only been seen by Egwene once(?) in T'A'R and because of that should logically be considered inexperienced

 

What option does she have except tying him up and hiding him? If he follows her he will probably confront Mesaana and get killed trying to protect her. She can't send him out of the Dream due to the Dreamspike. Leaving any room for him to escape will cause him to try to protect her and suffer Nicola's fate. She does not know Perrin is a BAMF, and how could she?

[f3llyn]

There's no need to get down on Gawyn here. I know he was kinda annoying in the first twelve or so books, but at least his irrationality was rational. *cough Egwene attempting to leave Perrin, a ta'veren crucial to the Last Battle and hunted by the Shadow, tied up in the middle of a fight against Forsaken and Black Ajah cough* And he was decent in this book anyway, regardless of Egwene. Besides, he killed three Bloodknives in combat and then fell to the floor bleeding from dozens of wounds. You just can't disparage that. Too epic.

You're right, I can't really come up with an argument against Gawyn's awesomeness in ToM. I'm not sure I still trust Brandon's "Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is" comment, he fought three of the world's greatest assassins and won...

 

Anyways, the Egwene part has already been addressed-

At that point Egwene knew three things-

 

1. People cannot exit the Dream at the present time

 

2. There are incredibly dangerous people hunting her

 

3. Perrin, her friend who always tried to protect her, has only been seen by Egwene once(?) in T'A'R and because of that should logically be considered inexperienced

 

What option does she have except tying him up and hiding him? If he follows her he will probably confront Mesaana and get killed trying to protect her. She can't send him out of the Dream due to the Dreamspike. Leaving any room for him to escape will cause him to try to protect her and suffer Nicola's fate. She does not know Perrin is a BAMF, and how could she?

Well, as a rule of thumb the all Seanchan are arrogant as can be. So it wouldn't be any surprise that they think their assassins are super awesome. No doubt the blood knives were good but they aren't as good as the Seanchan made them out to be.

[moratcorlm]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She's been having conjugal visits with Gawyn in Dreams for the better part of a year. Of course she'll probably never tell him that she was an active participant in his fantasies, but I don't think this is her problem.

[Jon Paul]

She's been having conjugal visits with Gawyn in Dreams for the better part of a year. Of course she'll probably never tell him that she was an active participant in his fantasies, but I don't think this is her problem.

 

For all intent and purpose, he forced her! It's all his fault that she's so attracted to him and cannot help herself. He should be ashamed for making her feel so!

[StrangeCat]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

It worked for Nynaeve, she's been a lot less bitchy since she got married. Though of course she was always a much better person than Egwene.

 

 

there must be some amazing Ter'angreal that works for women and creates amazing orgasms, Egwene needs that Bad!

Some secret to the tower passed down from the Age of Legends.

 

She will probably use the power on Gawyn at some point for her own....purposes.

 

Egwene is in charge but she has to remember she is a women still and has needs. She is to high strung and has to many complexes about the Seachan and men in general. I think her complexes will be the towers down fall.

[Barid Bel Medar]

There's no need to get down on Gawyn here. I know he was kinda annoying in the first twelve or so books, but at least his irrationality was rational. *cough Egwene attempting to leave Perrin, a ta'veren crucial to the Last Battle and hunted by the Shadow, tied up in the middle of a fight against Forsaken and Black Ajah cough* And he was decent in this book anyway, regardless of Egwene. Besides, he killed three Bloodknives in combat and then fell to the floor bleeding from dozens of wounds. You just can't disparage that. Too epic.

You're right, I can't really come up with an argument against Gawyn's awesomeness in ToM. I'm not sure I still trust Brandon's "Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is" comment, he fought three of the world's greatest assassins and won...

 

Anyways, the Egwene part has already been addressed-

At that point Egwene knew three things-

 

1. People cannot exit the Dream at the present time

 

2. There are incredibly dangerous people hunting her

 

3. Perrin, her friend who always tried to protect her, has only been seen by Egwene once(?) in T'A'R and because of that should logically be considered inexperienced

 

What option does she have except tying him up and hiding him? If he follows her he will probably confront Mesaana and get killed trying to protect her. She can't send him out of the Dream due to the Dreamspike. Leaving any room for him to escape will cause him to try to protect her and suffer Nicola's fate. She does not know Perrin is a BAMF, and how could she?

 

 

Yeahhh, as much as I hated her at the moment I read that, and thought it was the most idiodic thing to do, she DID do it with the right intent, Brandon commented on it.

 

 

Q: Much has been made of Egwene’s thought to tie up Perrin in the midst of a battle that could have brought about his death if he had not been able to stop her. Such apparent negligence is shocking considering her knowledge of how quickly things can happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Can you Explain Egwene’s thought process? Did she intend to leave Perrin there while she finished the battle?

A: (not verbatim) Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She was acting as the Amyrlin and trying to make sure that he would be safe and out of the way of danger. She was not going to tie him up and leave him, she would have brought him somewhere safe away from the danger of the fight and left him there until it was over.

 

So yeah, cant really blame her for this. The whole scene didnt play out, so we didnt see the part where she was going to transport him somewhere safe.

 

Still, I maintain it was a stupid and arrogant move and I litteraly jumped for joy when Perrin just laughed and owned her/ deflected Balefire.

[Hadilmir]

Still, I maintain it was a stupid and arrogant move and I litteraly jumped for joy when Perrin just laughed and owned her/ deflected Balefire.

 

Easily one of the top 5 scenes of the book. Easily, especially since I was thinking "Egwene, didn't you just say your will was stronger than channeling in T'A'R a few books back? What are you doing channeling, you idiot?" as I read it. If Perrin hadn't turned up and shown her how it's done she may not have defeated Mesaana.

[randsc]

Honestly, I don't believe Brandon. I don't think that that scene was meant to convey the idea that Egwene was simply going to transport Perrin somewhere safe, and that Brandon just wrote it badly.

 

I think that scene was written to convey exactly what it does convey. That Egwene intended to tie Perrin up while she continued on and fought the battle. I think Brandon has been taken aback by the reaction to that scene, which has been vehement and all over the fan forums, which we know Brandon reads. And his statement about how Egwene would have sent Perrin somewhere safe was just an easy dodge of an unneeded problem.

[Kahlika]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

And you all complain that Egwene is sexist.

[randsc]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

And you all complain that Egwene is sexist.

 

 

She is. This whole series of posts was pretty obvious bait.

 

Although, I'm not sure there is anything inherently sexist in suggesting that a person who is controlling and obtuse in their relationships with the opposite sex needs to get laid. I realize that it is basically feminist dogma to find the suggestion sexist, but that same observation can be and often is made about men.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hadilmir

 

Posted Today, 02:15 PM

 

View PostBarid Bel Medar, on 02 December 2010 - 02:07 PM, said:

Still, I maintain it was a stupid and arrogant move and I litteraly jumped for joy when Perrin just laughed and owned her/ deflected Balefire.

 

 

Easily one of the top 5 scenes of the book. Easily, especially since I was thinking "Egwene, didn't you just say your will was stronger than channeling in T'A'R a few books back? What are you doing channeling, you idiot?" as I read it. If Perrin hadn't turned up and shown her how it's done she may not have defeated Mesaana.

 

Haha yeah, definitely. I was just thinking that. It kinda WAS Perrin who showed her (or reminded her) how she could defeat Mesaana. Egwene's reaction was truly priceless.

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't believe Brandon. I don't think that that scene was meant to convey the idea that Egwene was simply going to transport Perrin somewhere safe, and that Brandon just wrote it badly.

 

I think that scene was written to convey exactly what it does convey. That Egwene intended to tie Perrin up while she continued on and fought the battle. I think Brandon has been taken aback by the reaction to that scene, which has been vehement and all over the fan forums, which we know Brandon reads. And his statement about how Egwene would have sent Perrin somewhere safe was just an easy dodge of an unneeded problem.

 

Ok, now thats just irrational hatered of Egwene here.

 

I can totally sympathize with people disliking Egwene. I dont much like her actions myself, but this is going overboard.

 

Brandon doesnt care what some people say on a computer about a fictional character. It makes no difference to him in real life, nor does it affect the story. I am not saying that he does not value the online community. Because I believe the online community is fantastic, and I am sure Brandon does also.

 

However, I highly doubt he would lie just to defend a fictional character.

 

Hadilmir I now see your reasons for wanting to defend Egwene, I totally agree in this case.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

And you all complain that Egwene is sexist.

 

 

She is. This whole series of posts was pretty obvious bait.

 

Although, I'm not sure there is anything inherently sexist in suggesting that a person who is controlling and obtuse in their relationships with the opposite sex needs to get laid. I realize that it is basically feminist dogma to find the suggestion sexist, but that same observation can be and often is made about men.

 

 

ALL Aes Sedai are sexist. Egwene is less so, but still sexist, theres no denying it. And to Randsc, I agree. Also, Feminists are some of the most sexist people around. I in no way condone the repression of women, but feminists I have absolutely no respect for. They take it to the other extreme, becomming the female version of the one thing that they drone on about.

[randsc]

It is neither irrational nor Egwene hatred. It actually has nothing to do with Egwene.

 

It is based on a number of things I have heard Sanderson say. The guy is very, very, very politically correct in his personal views. He actually uses the phrase, "politically correct" in a non-ironic fashion. That is, he believes that there are views which are correct, based on how enlightened (by his definition) those views are, and that that enlightenment ought to be reflected in his writing.

 

Based on this, I expect that it actually bothers him more than a bit that his feminist avatar is disliked.

 

Authors offer up that sort of little lie to their reading publics all the time.

 

Now answer me this: If Egwene was just going to send Perrin back to his dream, why would she say, "I'm sorry, Perrn. I'll be back for you." That phrasing clearly indicates that she will be leaving, while he will be...staying. Not going elsewhere, or back to his dream. Staying.

 

If that isn't what Sanderson intended to convey, then it is BAD writing.

 

Given the choice between believing Sanderson to be a sloppy writer (which I don't believe he is), or believing him excessively PC (which I know he is), I'll go with the latter.

[Kahlika]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

And you all complain that Egwene is sexist.

 

 

She is. This whole series of posts was pretty obvious bait.

 

Although, I'm not sure there is anything inherently sexist in suggesting that a person who is controlling and obtuse in their relationships with the opposite sex needs to get laid. I realize that it is basically feminist dogma to find the suggestion sexist, but that same observation can be and often is made about men.

 

Just to clarify I'm not jumping up and down to accuse everyone on this board of being a terrible woman hating sexist. I'm just pointing out that it's easy to fall back to really dumb sexist language etc without giving it a second thought when it's a norm in the society you're in. Which is something Egwene is pretty regularly flayed for.

 

I've often wondered how many of the objections to Egwene were people uncomfortable about having their own social norms overturned in such a way.

 

***

 

Aaaand I don't know if I should reply to the rest of your comment. I'll give it a try and hope people can just let it lie. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm just attempting to clarify why it's such a cringeworthy comment to some people.

 

There are a few resons it rubs people the wrong way which is probably why you notice it being 'dogma' to dislike it.

- It assumes all a 'problem' woman needs is a man to fix her up.

- It assumes that there is something wrong with women who aren't with men or who aren't sexually active, which is a choice women have the right to make for themselves and have respected.

- It touches on the general issue of women being defined by their relationships to others.

 

but that same observation can be and often is made about men.

 

I'm sure this is a predictable answer, but in a patriarcal society (or a matriarchal society) the same comments made to a male and female are loaded in different ways.

 

/shrug

 

ALL Aes Sedai are sexist. Egwene is less so, but still sexist, theres no denying it. And to Randsc, I agree. Also, Feminists are some of the most sexist people around. I in no way condone the repression of women, but feminists I have absolutely no respect for. They take it to the other extreme, becomming the female version of the one thing that they drone on about.

 

You have a sadly narrow conception of what it is to be a feminst. It genuinely makes me sad that people still buy into those stereotypes.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

ALL Aes Sedai are sexist. Egwene is less so, but still sexist, theres no denying it. And to Randsc, I agree. Also, Feminists are some of the most sexist people around. I in no way condone the repression of women, but feminists I have absolutely no respect for. They take it to the other extreme, becomming the female version of the one thing that they drone on about.

 

You have a sadly narrow conception of what it is to be a feminst. It genuinely makes me sad that people still buy into those steretypes.

 

I apologize, I misspoke. Of course this isnt the case for your average 'feminist'. I should really have pointed this out. stereotypes mainly come into being when a high percentage of a selected group acts in a certain manner. Of course, I was referring to the Germaine Greer type feminists and those that actually said that they could freeze sperm and live without males in the future. I have had some bad and infuriating experiences with feminists, so that type makes me angry. I believe in equal rights, not females being better, nor males being better. We are different, and each sex has their strenghts and weaknessess.

 

Anywhoo, again I apologize for misspeaking. I did not mean to imply that all feminists are like the above described, and sorry if I offended you.

[Kahlika]

 

ALL Aes Sedai are sexist. Egwene is less so, but still sexist, theres no denying it. And to Randsc, I agree. Also, Feminists are some of the most sexist people around. I in no way condone the repression of women, but feminists I have absolutely no respect for. They take it to the other extreme, becomming the female version of the one thing that they drone on about.

 

You have a sadly narrow conception of what it is to be a feminst. It genuinely makes me sad that people still buy into those steretypes.

 

I apologize, I misspoke. Of course this isnt the case for your average 'feminist'. I should really have pointed this out. stereotypes mainly come into being when a high percentage of a selected group acts in a certain manner. Of course, I was referring to the Germaine Greer type feminists and those that actually said that they could freeze sperm and live without males in the future. I have had some bad and infuriating experiences with feminists, so that type makes me angry. I believe in equal rights, not females being better, nor males being better. We are different, and each sex has their strenghts and weaknessess.

 

Anywhoo, again I apologize for misspeaking. I did not mean to imply that all feminists are like the above described, and sorry if I offended you.

 

Thank you :)

 

I in turn will admit to knowing feminists who do fit the sterotype, so I do understand where it comes from, but it isn't the totality of what feminism is (thankfully).

[randsc]

I believe that Egwene's character is intended to be feminist. But she isn't. She's a female chauvinist.

[moratcorlm]

My own position has always been that in many ways Jordan intended gender relations in WOT to be a parody of feminism, mixed in to some of his own cultural prejudices played straight. From where I'm sitting it's annoying, but for the most part it can simply be ignored.

[Durinax]

well Egwene can be very disliked because she is an extemist in a feminist context. but RJ designed it to be so, he decided to reflect our own history except from a matriarical sense and he did a brilliant job, he created a world where women are in charge but dont do all the dangerous jobs (which most men in the book would take in order for the women not too (exteme chivalry)).

 

but I believe he intended to satyrize politicians while he was at it. that they can command troops to their deaths while never have seen fighting for themselves (Egwene TAR battle (she had no experience in a tar battle) talmanes(? one of the nobles mat had would not listen to a non noble born, and was useless as a commander)).

 

personnally I hate her because she is definately a character who believes "a woman knows best." And despite saying that rand has taken the right action in times previous (sending tairen food aid to cairhein) she still thinks he is a f***ing idiot, for some reason, who needs to be controlled.

 

although I could also see how mine and her personallities would clash, I am a very honest person whereas she is deceitful.

 

please forgive any drunken ramblings which dont make sense

[moratcorlm]

he decided to reflect our own history except from a matriarical sense and he did a brilliant job, he created a world where women are in charge but dont do all the dangerous jobs (which most men in the book would take in order for the women not too (exteme chivalry)).

Which is it?

 

Jordan created a "matriarchal" world that miraculously looks rather similar to our own patriarchal world except for a few cultural swerves that don't really make sense when you examine them closely. The women always seem to fall in line in the end, no matter how much feistier they are.

[FarShainMael]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

And you all complain that Egwene is sexist.

 

 

She is. This whole series of posts was pretty obvious bait.

 

Although, I'm not sure there is anything inherently sexist in suggesting that a person who is controlling and obtuse in their relationships with the opposite sex needs to get laid. I realize that it is basically feminist dogma to find the suggestion sexist, but that same observation can be and often is made about men.

 

Just to clarify I'm not jumping up and down to accuse everyone on this board of being a terrible woman hating sexist. I'm just pointing out that it's easy to fall back to really dumb sexist language etc without giving it a second thought when it's a norm in the society you're in. Which is something Egwene is pretty regularly flayed for.

 

I've often wondered how many of the objections to Egwene were people uncomfortable about having their own social norms overturned in such a way.

 

***

 

Aaaand I don't know if I should reply to the rest of your comment. I'll give it a try and hope people can just let it lie. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm just attempting to clarify why it's such a cringeworthy comment to some people.

 

There are a few reasons it rubs people the wrong way which is probably why you notice it being 'dogma' to dislike it.

- It assumes all a 'problem' woman needs is a man to fix her up.

- It assumes that there is something wrong with women who aren't with men or who aren't sexually active, which is a choice women have the right to make for themselves and have respected.

- It touches on the general issue of women being defined by their relationships to others.

 

I was in two minds about taking the bait profferred by DS, thinking that anything I said would be ticketed as 'spluttering indignation'. In fact I was so annoyed I nearly emailed the mods and asked for my account to be deleted. My reasons are that as a female electronics engineer, a field which is mostly male, I have fought all my professional life to be taken seriously. I retired a few months ago with a profound sense of relief that I had more or less survived. I have met too many males (not men) who want women only for free sex-on-demand and will do anything to get it, from simple insults downwards. Kahlika's comments express my opinions on that rather more calmly than I can.

 

Thank heaven there are some real men out there, men who see women as people not things!