EotW Moiraine annoyances

[Feral]

Doing a reread of EotW at the moment and I have to say, it's put me off Moiraine quite a bit and I'm also a bit...disappointed with the way she is written, if that's the right way to phrase it. So far there's two things that are really bothering me and seem off character to me. Firstly, after Wintersnight and the trollocs and everything, she doesn't go find Rand. For all she knew it could have been Rand wounded with the trolloc blade and slowly dying, and he had the coin so she would have been able to find him relatively easily, yet she stayed in the village. I understand she would have been exhausted after the fight and might have been worried about more trollocs and of course there was loads of healing to be done, but I don't buy those excuses. After all, she bangs on a lot about how she will do WHATEVER it takes to keep the three boys from the Dark One and get them to Tar Valon. Surely if a candidate for the Dragon Reborn was possibly dying, she'd do whatever it took to go to him?

Secondly, the incident in Shadar Logoth where Mashadar cuts off Moiraine and Lan from the others. She tells them to find another way as if it's nothing at all, when really the chances of all of them getting out alive and uncaptured was quite slim. Couldn't she have lifted the three boys over Mashadar?

And then my other little issue is with her and Egwene. All through the first half of the book Moiraine seems to be constantly pushing herself to the point of collapse, even with the angreal. And yet in her company she has another woman who completely lacks skill and knowledge of channeling but who's raw power is far greater than her own. And what does she do? Have one lesson with her an evening teaching her little tricks like making a stone glow and starting a fire. If she could get Egwene to the point where she can actually channel and start fires so quickly, why did she not simply concentrate on getting Egwene to embrace saidar consistently? Forget teaching her to actually do anything with it, just get her to spend as much time as possible ebracing saidar or at least trying to. Then they could have linked and Moiraine would have been able to do so much more!

 

Anyway that's my rant over. Please tell me are my points are valid or am I just missing some obvious explanations for Moiraine's behaviour?

[Kaznen]

Because of the coin she could would have known that Rand was slowly but surely making his way to the village. Plus she didn't expect Trollocs to be in the Village. She needed to investigate the attack, which she was doing.

 

In Shadar Logoth if she tried to lift one of them over the Mashadar they could have been attack by a tendril like we saw a few other times that night.

 

Egwene didn't have any raw strength, she had potential. In NS when Moiriane and Sauine became AS they still hadn't reached full power. Egwene couldn't like a candle unaided four out of five times. She got her raw power from being forced by the Seanchan.

[Demiandre]

Regarding the coin. Moiraine had three target. Rand, Perrin and Mat. She wasn't sure which was the Dragn Reborn. Two were in Emond's Field, one on his way there. Would you abandon two person to save one? 66.66% chance of having the future Dragon nearby, and only 33.33% chance of having the Dragon loose in the nearby countryside, perhaps wounded. That was a gamble. And with the belief in the Pattern, if he needed help, the Pattern would have driven her to Rand somehow, I'd say. The DO's touch wasn't strong enough at the time to impact so much on what should be happening

 

Regarding Egwene. It's not in the Westland culture to force chanellers. That is a Seanchan trait. They force damane. WT goes very slowly wth training. Others are harsh yet not hurried. They take their time. Because it is dangerous to go to fast. (Damane with their a'dam are exemted from this danger because of the "unvoluntary circles" created by those ter'angreal).

 

Lifting someone is not so easy. It depends on your weight and your strength. Siuan's commrnt.about it when she tries to lift Bryne after beng Healed seems prof enough that it isn't raw power that makes someone lift another person, but also pressure and weight. (Archimède and his famous "Eureka" in his bathtub)

[Ozzie_aiel]

Don't forget, the first sign they had that trollocs were in the area was when they attacked Emonds Field, they were in the thick of the fighting there, and probably didn't know that the Aybara and Al'Thor farms were in any danger until the news came in.

[Darth Krewl]

Don't forget, the first sign they had that trollocs were in the area was when they attacked Emonds Field, they were in the thick of the fighting there, and probably didn't know that the Aybara and Al'Thor farms were in any danger until the news came in.

 

Sure, but didn't Moiraine have the three boys as well identified as the Shadowspawn? Not to mention that Warders are supposed to be able to sense Shadowspawn for miles. Hence, Lan should have had plenty of warning about the upcoming attack. Moiraine did give the coins to the three Ta'veren specifically (including the Dragon Reborn, who also happened to be the one farthest away from Emond's Field). So, that means she must've known just whom the Shadowspawn would target and prepare countermeasures.

 

As for Egwene's raw power, the girl didn't have to do anything by herself. Moiraine could have linked to her and used Egwene's considerable ability, the same way that Egwene herself links to the novices and uses their strength in the Power during the Seanchan attack on the White Tower.

[didymos]

As for Egwene's raw power, the girl didn't have to do anything by herself. Moiraine could have linked to her and used Egwene's considerable ability, the same way that Egwene herself links to the novices and uses their strength in the Power during the Seanchan attack on the White Tower.

 

No. Egwene had not yet touched the Source, and it took a fair amount of effort for her to do so, with Moiraine's help and under non-Trolloc attack circumstances. And even after that, she found it difficult for quite a while. Trying to instruct her on touching saidar and then teach her how to link on top of it while Trollocs were rampaging about? Would not have worked. Good way to get people killed though.

[Elgee]

Darth, think of the raw power as potential to do weight lifting. Someone might have the natural build for it, but first they've got to build those muscles up. Egwene doesn't actually HAVE that raw power / muscle yet - the potential is there for her to build up to it with practice and usage.

[Whatsie]

Also, I think the knowledge of how to link was one of those "Aes Sedai only" sort of things, if Moiraine knew it at all. Why would she show that to someone who isn't even a novice yet?

[dovien]

Couldn't she have lifted the three boys over Mashadar?

No. Moiraine is quite strong as Aes Sedai go but it's very hard to lift even one person, let alone three. Also there was the risk of attracting Myrdraal to their position.

[Darth Krewl]

No. Egwene had not yet touched the Source, and it took a fair amount of effort for her to do so, with Moiraine's help and under non-Trolloc attack circumstances. And even after that, she found it difficult for quite a while. Trying to instruct her on touching saidar and then teach her how to link on top of it while Trollocs were rampaging about? Would not have worked. Good way to get people killed though.

 

I may be wrong about this, but IIRC, the Trolloc ambush outside Baerlon happened after Moiraine had already taught Egwene a few exercises, including how to make a little blue gem glow. I do remember that both women went into the woods every night from Emond's Field to Baerlon, where Moiraine began Egwene's instruction. For story-telling purposes, obviously, RJ just illustrated said instruction with one example. But that doesn't mean it was the only time that Moiraine taught something to Egwene. As for the time needed to teach linking, Egwene herself taught not one, but a numerous group of Novices, whom I'm sure had no idea of how to link, while Seanchan were rampaging about in TGS. So, IMO, either both Aes Sedai had enough time to teach and use the link or neither had it.

 

Darth, think of the raw power as potential to do weight lifting. Someone might have the natural build for it, but first they've got to build those muscles up. Egwene doesn't actually HAVE that raw power / muscle yet - the potential is there for her to build up to it with practice and usage.

 

I understand perfectly well, Elgee. My question would be that, in TGS, since Egwene was filled with forkroot and forced to depend on the raw strength of the novices during the Seanchan attack, does this mean that all those girls had already developed enough muscle and experience to do that? Where they really that far ahead in their training, compared to where Egwene was in TEoTW?

 

Also, I think the knowledge of how to link was one of those "Aes Sedai only" sort of things, if Moiraine knew it at all. Why would she show that to someone who isn't even a novice yet?

 

Well, CAE2685, perhaps to save her life, that of her companions and, most importantly, that of the Dragon Reborn? Extreme situations demand extreme measures, after all. And I don't think even obstinate, foolish and stubborn Aes Sedai would refuse to see that. Especially, one that was a bit more open minded and audacious than most of her peers, such as Moiraine.

[Elgee]

Darth, think of the raw power as potential to do weight lifting. Someone might have the natural build for it, but first they've got to build those muscles up. Egwene doesn't actually HAVE that raw power / muscle yet - the potential is there for her to build up to it with practice and usage.

 

I understand perfectly well, Elgee. My question would be that, in TGS, since Egwene was filled with forkroot and forced to depend on the raw strength of the novices during the Seanchan attack, does this mean that all those girls had already developed enough muscle and experience to do that? Where they really that far ahead in their training, compared to where Egwene was in TEoTW?

 

 

Though Egwene had had a few lessons from Moiraine, she wasn't even able to embrace the source at will by the time she and Perin were wandering around in the woods looking for the others. That clearly indicates that she's at the extreme beginning phase still.

 

It's stated quite a few times that it usually takes weeks (a week being 10 days) or even months before most novices can reliably embrace the source at will.

 

The novices Egwene had linking during the Seanchan attack must logically have been there at the very least many weeks, if not months, for the following reasons:

a) they were able to put themselves at the brink of embracing the source, in order to link;

b) TV has been besieged for quite some time, which means no new novices could reach the Tower, which means those there had to have arrived and started their training at the latest before the besieging began.

[Darth Krewl]

Though Egwene had had a few lessons from Moiraine, she wasn't even able to embrace the source at will by the time she and Perin were wandering around in the woods looking for the others. That clearly indicates that she's at the extreme beginning phase still.

 

It's stated quite a few times that it usually takes weeks (a week being 10 days) or even months before most novices can reliably embrace the source at will.

 

The novices Egwene had linking during the Seanchan attack must logically have been there at the very least many weeks, if not months, for the following reasons:

a) they were able to put themselves at the brink of embracing the source, in order to link;

b) TV has been besieged for quite some time, which means no new novices could reach the Tower, which means those there had to have arrived and started their training at the latest before the besieging began.

 

Okay, so I'm wrong because of a matter of days, then. Weeks at the most haha! Well, what you say does make sense. I stand corrected, then. Moiraine couldn't have linked with Egwene and drawn from the girl's strength.

 

Thanks for the explanation, Elgee. Much appreciated :D

[David Selig]

since Egwene was filled with forkroot and forced to depend on the raw strength of the novices during the Seanchan attack, does this mean that all those girls had already developed enough muscle and experience to do that? Where they really that far ahead in their training, compared to where Egwene was in TEoTW?

All of those have probably been in training for years. Definitely way ahead of Egwene in TEOTW even given the cautious way they are trained.

 

Egwene in TEOTW had been trained a few times over a few weeks, in the evenings after an exhausting day of running from or fighting Trollocs. She could barely touch the Source and barely could light a candle. She didn't have enough strength to help Moiraine, it will probably even have been detrimental, since linking doesn't simply add up the strengths of both channellers - it combines it, but the result is less than the sum of the two.

[Elgee]

it will probably even have been detrimental, since linking doesn't simply add up the strengths of both channellers - it combines it, but the result is less than the sum of the two.

 

Good point, David! I hadn't even thought of that.

 

It's a pleasure, Darth

 

*Looks disconsolately at her Red shawl, and contemplates handing it back in exchange for a White one*

[Darth Krewl]

 

It's a pleasure, Darth

 

*Looks disconsolately at her Red shawl, and contemplates handing it back in exchange for a White one*

 

The pleasure's all mine, Elgee. You're the first Red I've liked...then again, I don't think Sith Lords and Red Sisters would ever like each other very much. Though, that being said, seems like the books have shown us that most Reds do have the right temperament to change the red shawl for a black robe, me thinks...;P

[Mr Ares]

*Looks disconsolately at her Red shawl, and contemplates handing it back in exchange for a White one*

Don't be silly, dear, you look much better in Red.

[Elgee]

Mr Ares!! *Tacklesnugglebites*

 

Haven't seen you in a while. I mourned for you! *Puts hand over heart and squeezes out a few tears. From an innocent bystander.*

 

Don't know much about Sith Lords, Darth, apart from that they wear kewl black outfits. Being a Red, I'm always intrigued by men wearing black. Though you should drop by the Social Side Reds ... you might be in for a few surprises

[Darth Krewl]

Don't know much about Sith Lords, Darth, apart from that they wear kewl black outfits. Being a Red, I'm always intrigued by men wearing black. Though you should drop by the Social Side Reds ... you might be in for a few surprises

 

Oh yeah, those Sith black robes are pretty cool. And the fiery red eyes too (that's how I pictured Ishamael when I first read tEotW, actually. Like a Sith, all sinister, dressed in black and with those eyes of fire...hehehe).

 

Not sure if channeling the OP is the same as using the Force (that'd be an interesting debate, IMO) and if a user could be severed from the Force, so I'm not afraid of being gentled by a charming, nice Red Sister! So, thanks for the invitation, I'm flattered, but I must warn you: I take no responsibility for any Social Side Reds turning Black from interaction with a Sith Lord ;-P

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares!! *Tacklesnugglebites*

 

Haven't seen you in a while. I mourned for you! *Puts hand over heart and squeezes out a few tears. From an innocent bystander.*

There are innocent bystanders around you? You must be losing your touch. And rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

[Feral]

OK so I understand the whole Egwene thing. Before I reread EotW I didn't think she'd be able to link so early on either. It was just the fact she was able to make Moiraine's stone glow pretty much first try that made me think maybe people advance more quickly with the One Power than I'd previously thought, but I guess I was right the first time.

As for the other points, I'm still not convinced. I know people have pointed out that Moiraine had two other possible Dragons and wouldn't want to risk them, and that she could also sense Rand coming to her. But she could have taken Mat and Perrin with her and as I said before, although she could sense Rand coming towards the village, he still could have been fatally wounded. Personally if I was in that situation with the fate of the world in the balance I wouldn't take any chances.

As for the Mashadar thing, even lifting just one of the boys to safety would have been an improvement, and if she had lifted them high enough it wouldn't have triggered Mashadar. I have to admit that drawing a Fades attention might have caused a problem though. Wasn't sure just how much power lifting someone would take, and how much of the Power would have to be used for a Fade to sense it.