Cyndane

[mossman87]

Perrin coming to Rand's rescue in TAR?

 

Ishamael has tasked Lanfear with trapping Rand, possibly with the help of Moghidien.

 

What can they do to the new DR? At this point, I figure Rand (having overcome the max male base Power level, i.e the 13 AS were terrified while holding his shield, Egwene said he could have broken through the shield without struggle, his destruction of a Trolloc Army probably numbering up to 1/2 million) is stronger in the Power than Ishamael, more skilled (being LTT), has the ability to use the True Power.

 

Normally (no sa'angreal or near sa'angreal) even a fully powered Lanfear linked with Moghdien would be completely destroyed by the new DR, women being weaker in the Power.

 

 

 

My speculation:

 

So the trap I figure will be TAR based...Their knowledge of TAR is greater than any other Forsaken or even LTT. Manipulation of TAR rules supreme.

 

Who will save Rand once again? Perrin, who obviously has mad TAR skills, which has probably grown since his acceptance of his wolf part.

 

In TAR, Perrin can stop any Power weave from affecting him, his ability there could be greater than Moghdiens. Anyway, Perrin will be needed twice in order to save Rand (once being Dumai's Well). What can Perrin do against Forsaken? Nothing much, unless in TAR.

 

 

 

 

I agree it's probably in TAR, would make the most sense. However he (and the Pattern) did forge that badass hammer for a reason, and it'd be a shame if it's only claim to fame will be burning shadowspawn.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Lanfear has always been one of the big question marks of the story... Lanfear will play a far more major role than anyone thought in AMoL.

 

Not in my case. I am anticipating and hoping for exactly that. Jordan's own words from the 1990s would seem to preclude the obvious possibility of a redemption, but there are still many ways that Mierin could play a major non-Forsaken role in the story without Sanderson having to contradict Jordan's claims about her nature.

 

I also think that those who are speculating that Mierin will go crazy when she learns about Rand's sexual exploits and various rapports with female characters, are mistaken. That theme was played out at the docks. It's finished now. As surely as there isn't some need for Moiraine and Mierin to have a final duel, there is no need for Mierin to continue to be driven crazy by jealousy. She has other things to think about, and has changed in her circumstances since that fateful day in TFoH.

 

I want to focus on the fact that almost all of our in-character information about Mierin's history in the AOL (both as Mierin and as Lanfear) comes from Lews Therin Telamon, who has not been sane in the entire series and is far too similar to Mierin in temperament for us to take his assessment of her at face value. RJ himself essentially repeated Lews Therin's claims about her, and that is the only thing which gives me pause, but ultimately RJ was the master of non-answers and misdirection, and I would sooner take Ishamael at face value than him. Maybe Mierin had long been ripe for the plucking as RJ said, but remember that she also had good reason to be: She was born into a universe where her ambitions were impossible, and she was rejected by someone who we can all agree by now that she truly, actually loved.

 

I think it's likelier that we are thinking about Cyndane in the wrong way. It would be such a disappointment if this were some obvious and shallow trick of the Shadow to make one final play for Rand's soul. That ship has sailed. Unless the plan is for the trick to actually work this time, there's no point in writing yet another failed Shadow Rand-recruiting trick right into the end of the story, when there is so much else going on. Veins of Gold put that beast to bed, and we know now that the Creator has Elmer's Glue looking out for Rand's wholesomeness of mind.

 

Mierin's time with the Finns seems to hold all the answers. ToM told us way less about all of this than I had expected. Clearly, something about the Finn storyline is being held back until the very end, till AMoL itself.

[Duskfire]

I want to focus on the fact that almost all of our in-character information about Mierin's history in the AOL (both as Mierin and as Lanfear) comes from Lews Therin Telamon, who has not been sane in the entire series and is far too similar to Mierin in temperament for us to take his assessment of her at face value. RJ himself essentially repeated Lews Therin's claims about her, and that is the only thing which gives me pause, but ultimately RJ was the master of non-answers and misdirection, and I would sooner take Ishamael at face value than him. Maybe Mierin had long been ripe for the plucking as RJ said, but remember that she also had good reason to be: She was born into a universe where her ambitions were impossible, and she was rejected by someone who we can all agree by now that she truly, actually loved.

 

I dont agree that she loved Lews Therin. Not in the way normal people love others. She cherished power, and he was a means to that power. Its the reason why she sought out the Bore in the first place, why she turned to the Shadow, etc etc. Its all because of power. I can understand people thinking of Lanfear as a misguided, wrongly judged character, but for me personally, I consider her to be among the most evil of the Forsaken. Her evil is the sort of hidden psychotic evil that can vanish and flash in the blink of an eye. She just has a different way of doing things then the other Forsaken.

 

I think it's likelier that we are thinking about Cyndane in the wrong way. It would be such a disappointment if this were some obvious and shallow trick of the Shadow to make one final play for Rand's soul. That ship has sailed. Unless the plan is for the trick to actually work this time, there's no point in writing yet another failed Shadow Rand-recruiting trick right into the end of the story, when there is so much else going on. Veins of Gold put that beast to bed, and we know now that the Creator has Elmer's Glue looking out for Rand's wholesomeness of mind.

 

Well previously the Dark One tried to force Rand to become harder then he should be, to alienate him from his allies and friends. This time however, he may be trying to appeal the other way, and go for Rands emotional side. Rather then harden him, the opposite will happen. I still think Rand needs to be turned for the DO to possibly win. Or at the very least, this Lanfear ploy will distract him to some extent.

[Yehosh]

Also, and this has nothing to do with anything, but I do not think Rand accessed the True Power via Moridin. That seems lame. I think that honor came straight from the Dark One.

 

I agree. I think Moridin made a comment to Messaana that instead of rescuing Semi, the GLOD may find uses for her. Her certainly did, he used her to make Rand desperate enough to seize the TP. It was planned and staged and not an accident.

[Demiandre]

Ok let's look at some facts.

 

Lanfear is under Cour'souvra. Her mind is trapped inside a Ter'angreal. She can be broken as soon as the mindtrap is shattered, leaving her as a soulless puppet.

 

What better place to trap a mind than another mind? And to trap someone entirely, you have to control every part of this person. Body, mind, spirit.

 

Rand and Moridin are connected. Rand entered Moridin's dream in A place to begin, TGS. Even though Rand's dream are warded. Their link is stronger than One Power ward.

 

Ishamael, and Moridin as well, has been particularly present in T'A'R in the first books. Then, his presence lessened. We saw him only during Forsaken meetings. Or nearly.

 

We have a particularly good description of the place Rand meet Lanfear/Cyndane in the epilogue. A door like roots of an old tree, knobbed and ridged. A black room, lightless. A round room, "as if he stood inside of the bowl of an enormous skull", with walls of a peculiar color : "against the bone-white wall".

 

So let's start the speculation. Lanfear is trapped inside Moridin's mind. He control everything, and even in her dream, she is trapped in Moridin's "head" through the cour'souvra. Rand accessed this place through his connexion with Moridin.

 

Lanfear's mind is being broken by Moridin's torture. He breaks her bones, then Heal her. She is at the brink of death each time.

 

Rand's feeling of desire is strange. One of his first reaction when seeing her is that he despised her thirst of Power, and didn't really love her as he loved Ilyena, or how he love Elayne, Min and Aviedha. That feeling, "like a seething viper inside him" as well as hatred and cncern, is Moridin's feeling. I think I remembered a Theory about Moridin being obsessed in/in love with Lanfear with which I tend to agree (Was it from Luckers??). That could come from there through the link.

 

So I think Lanfear is held against her will on the Shadow side, and that she will give up the Shadow for the Light. Her sufferng is a sufficient redemption in my book (Even the Wise One stopped considering the three stilled Aes Sedai da'tsang because they lost something great. They even wore peculiar expression when seeing them). She is not fully with the Dark One. She wants to challenge hil, even the Creator. Her ambition place her upon every other Forsaken in terms of greed and thirst of Power. Rand shall make her realize that you can be powerful without dominating everything. Let's hope his good Lighr will help him in this task

 

A cour'souvra is made by using the One Power, saliva and blood on it in the Pit of Doom. Nowhere else does it works. But can it be inversed? Can someone free someone from a cour'souvra? I think the holder can.

 

And Rand, with his link with Moridin, might be able to free Lanfear by taking upon the cour'souvra (destroying it in Moridin's mind?) after/before she helps him during the Last Battle for sealing the Dark One. After all, she drilled the Bore, and Min told Rand he needed a dead woman to win. Moiraine? Lanfear? Rand thought both dead. He still think Moiraine dead. And she says she has a role yet to play, information she shall give Rand.

 

So it is not really a good theory (in the sense that it isn't well constructed/referenced, etc... the idea is supercool I think. But well, you might all disagree with it...), I'll have to look for mord reference and more example/evidences, but I think it is quite plausible.

 

I want to believe in redemption.

 

So, I'm going to put that theory on the french forum I go to, and see what their reaction are. Hope there will be a little of a debate ;)

 

Edit : damn, the_woad posted a similar theory! I thought I read all the pages but I skipped the last.... Sorry for that.

[Kestrel]

And Rand, with his link with Moridin, might be able to free Lanfear by taking upon the cour'souvra (destroying it in Moridin's mind?) after/before she helps him during the Last Battle for sealing the Dark One. After all, she drilled the Bore, and Min told Rand he needed a dead woman to win .Moiraine? Lanfear?

Thanks for remembering this; I was hoping to find it. Where is this revelation located?

[Demiandre]

And Rand, with his link with Moridin, might be able to free Lanfear by taking upon the cour'souvra (destroying it in Moridin's mind?) after/before she helps him during the Last Battle for sealing the Dark One. After all, she drilled the Bore, and Min told Rand he needed a dead woman to win .Moiraine? Lanfear?

Thanks for remembering this; I was hoping to find it. Where is this revelation located?

A Crown of Sword, Chapter 35. In fact, it seems she doesn't tell him. She only think about it...

 

http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=woman+dead&t=10&c=0&p=0&d=1

[Crael123]

I really like this idea of Ishmael turning to the shadow because of an obsessive love of Lanfear. That my friends would be very interesting. And there have been subtle hints if u look back...

[Kestrel]

And Rand, with his link with Moridin, might be able to free Lanfear by taking upon the cour'souvra (destroying it in Moridin's mind?) after/before she helps him during the Last Battle for sealing the Dark One. After all, she drilled the Bore, and Min told Rand he needed a dead woman to win .Moiraine? Lanfear?

Thanks for remembering this; I was hoping to find it. Where is this revelation located?

A Crown of Sword, Chapter 35. In fact, it seems she doesn't tell him. She only think about it...

 

http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=woman+dead&t=10&c=0&p=0&d=1

Thanks. Found it.

 

Hmmm. A short bit later in the same chapter Min muses that her viewing about Moraine was the only one which had failed. By inference, then, the woman "dead and gone" is Moraine. But with RJ, who can tell? He loved to slip little misdirections into his writing, and this could be one of them.

[Demiandre]

Yup, it isn't writtent clearly, so... But I suppose the two can go together. Because she saw he needed Moiraine, but she is dead and gone. Thus the needing of a woman dead and gone. She will be surprised when she see her again :)

[Sharaman]

Do people recall the Prologue in EotW when Elan confesses that he isn't all that good at healing?

It makes me wonder ---

[Demiandre]

Heh, maybe that's how he broke her bones, using his Talent at Healing (laugh). I wonder if he couldn't be able to give her the impression he broke her bones in his Dream/in T'A'R. And then he stop the feeling and she think he Healed her

[Sharaman]

Or she's lying about the whole thing.

Or it isn't Moridin doing the break-make dance.

In that case, it could only be GLoD himself or his avatar.

[jsbrads]

Rand said mierin was always overly ambitious, they may have dated, whether or not he was blinded to it at the time or chose to overlook it, it was clear that trait had not changed.

Ishy is dumb because he is fighting for a cause that won't even offer him a reward, fight for the light a win a normal healthy life. The fight for darkness gives you six months to live, and you may want to die long before the last few days

[jsbrads]

Mirror mirror on the wall who is the strongest female channeler of them all...

She may have been then, but now things can change, Alivia, Taalan and others

[b9anders]

First of all, let me just say Lanfear is a nasty piece of work and by no means a 'only as evil as I have to be' character.

 

Secondly, I think redemption, of a sort, is on the cards.

 

I do think this is a trap. The timing of Moridin's comment is just too close to her appearance. But I think it more likely that this is Moridin's trap and his alone. Moridin will have learned from his failure with the Kari gambit that live bait always works better and it would be just his thing to have Mierin roll out the snare for Rand in honest intention due to her actually being tortured in order to make the trap properly convincing.

 

In support of this is the fact that she appears in the dream as Cyndane. Rand has no idea 'Cyndane' even exists, why on earth would Lanfear appear as her if she is exerting any kind of conscious control of her appearance, when there's a real risc she might not even be recognised?

 

From where I am sitting, this has the look of Lanfear seeing an opening (probably conveniently left open by Moridin) and desperately throwing all her conscious and unconscious strength into reaching rand, leaving nothing left for details such as apperance (by now, it's not implausible she has begun to see herself unconsciously as Cyndane, just as I wager the 'gars would do the same when they visited the world of dreams) or even coherent speech to ensure she's actually recognised. Moridin might very well know Rand would recognise her anyway though, something Cyndane is less likely to be aware of.

 

Also, the room they meet in is very reminiscient of the sort Moridin likes to hang out in. Suggesting he is the orchestrator.

 

Regarding redemption, I think there are several indications that one of the forsaken will abandon the shadow (although I don't think this will necessarily entail embracing the light, though it may mean ultimately serving the light's purpose). I think the 'memories of light' point raised early is a very good one and a likely foreshadowing. Furthermore, Rand's ability to sometimes see the black cords on forsaken (but not always) and even sever it is yet another loose end that foreshadows him doing this to another forsaken. I still think there is the odd chance Moridin could yet be that one, but tbh the way he is being shown as practically a living extention of the DO by now in this book, I am beginning to lean away from this as likely and that leaves Mierin as the most plausible candidate by far.

 

The fact that she has unique knowledge of the bore and how it was drilled makes her an especially useful candidate for doing the Light's work.

 

The scenario I am foreseeing is not so much one of Mierin returning to the light as it is finding herself dumped and tortured by the shadow and deciding to get back at it. Of course, since this combined well with one last ditch attempt at winning back LTT (especially by playing on one of his weaker strings). We already know her turning to the shadow is moreso a questioon of ambition than dedication (indeed, her ambition dangerously overshone her dedication to the DO) and with her dreams of having those amibitions fulfilled by the DO, she really has no compelling reason to serve him, other than whatever bonds the DO has on her to forcibly compel her ('and one severed black cord later...').

 

Also, I don't think there's anything mysterious about Rand's 'new' desire for her. He now remembers fully what it was like to be her lover and there's probably something old and unadressed , now remembered, stirring there again.

[FarShainMael]

Today the word 'glamour' means beauty; but it has another, older, meaning, which is to cast a spell on someone..

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3A+glamour&btnG=Google+Search

 

Just a passing thought..

[johthohar]

I don't really like the idea of Lanfear gaining any kind of real redemption. But I wish she would find a way to escape the mind trap. And possibly find an angreal that would bring her back to her original level. I think she was a pretty badass villain before and now she traded all her pwnage for toolage. Kinda disappointing to me how lame she's become. But I'm sure she's got a part to play in aMoL... We'll see how it plays out.

 

From where I am sitting, this has the look of Lanfear seeing an opening (probably conveniently left open by Moridin) and desperately throwing all her conscious and unconscious strength into reaching rand, leaving nothing left for details such as apperance (by now, it's not implausible she has begun to see herself unconsciously as Cyndane, just as I wager the 'gars would do the same when they visited the world of dreams) or even coherent speech to ensure she's actually recognised. Moridin might very well know Rand would recognise her anyway though, something Cyndane is less likely to be aware of.

 

I'm sure you mean subconcious(ly).

[blazetheearth]

Personally, I find it very interesting as to what is missing from the entire Mierin scene, and it really makes me wish for a Rand PoV earlier in the book. He only recognized her soul when he looked in her eyes, but the other DF that we know about couldn't/wouldn't meet his eyes. I realize that she is a much stronger personality than Wieramon, but if Rand has a new found ability to recognize when someone is sworn to the Shadow like he implies (re:"They can't hide among my allies any more, Min") shouldn't we get some indication of him recognizing her as such. Instead he is simply blown away by the fact that he knows WHO she is not WHAT she is, and he uses the name she used before serving the Shadow. Based on what we see from Rand in this book it seems much more likely that if he saw in her the mark of serving the Shadow that he would have used Lanfear, not Mierin. Biggest hole in that is when he is in Moridin's dream Rand calls him Elan and Moridin stops him, but at the time of the conversation in Moridin's dream, the 2 of them were simply chatting like old friends, not the Ultimate Champion of Good and the Ultimate Champion of Evil.

 

just another thought to throw into the mix.

[johthohar]

Personally, I find it very interesting as to what is missing from the entire Mierin scene, and it really makes me wish for a Rand PoV earlier in the book. He only recognized her soul when he looked in her eyes, but the other DF that we know about couldn't/wouldn't meet his eyes. I realize that she is a much stronger personality than Wieramon, but if Rand has a new found ability to recognize when someone is sworn to the Shadow like he implies (re:"They can't hide among my allies any more, Min") shouldn't we get some indication of him recognizing her as such. Instead he is simply blown away by the fact that he knows WHO she is not WHAT she is, and he uses the name she used before serving the Shadow. Based on what we see from Rand in this book it seems much more likely that if he saw in her the mark of serving the Shadow that he would have used Lanfear, not Mierin. Biggest hole in that is when he is in Moridin's dream Rand calls him Elan and Moridin stops him, but at the time of the conversation in Moridin's dream, the 2 of them were simply chatting like old friends, not the Ultimate Champion of Good and the Ultimate Champion of Evil.

 

just another thought to throw into the mix.

 

I think its probably more because he knew her as Mierin for most of his LTT life. Only War of Power-Counterstroke, and then 20+ years as Rand does he know the Forsaken by any of their new names. LTT probably referred to most or all of them by their original names even during the WoP. As to why he doesn't comment on her being a dark friend.... Well, he obviously already knew. With Weiramon it was new information. With Lanfear/Cyndane/Mierin it would have been redundant. "Hey, this Forsaken is a darkfriend!" As to why she didn't tear out her eyes and start weeping... I suspect that would only happen to the weaker of mind.

[Sharaman]

Given that she was already distraught and weeping, would he have noticed if the intensity rose when she met his eyes?

[A Rant Lord]

I am currently reading `The world of Robert Jordan´s The wheel of time` By Teresa Patterson & Robert Jordan.

In this book I read (probably read over it in the normal books) that when LTT sealed the bore the dark one made his counterstroke.

The book said it isn't clear wether the DO tainted Saidin on purpose or it happened on excident. The book also stated that LTT and his remaining companions didn't went insane because of that taint, but went insane instantly because of that backlash. That made me wondering.

What if Mierin, when opening the bore (unknowingly freeing the DO and had no bad or dark intentions) also got hit by the DO surging through it and got tainted by his dark energies? Maybe she is innocent after all and just got messed up so badly by the DO surge she went kinda insane or her mind wasn't really her own anymore. Perhaps aMoL refers to Mierin being resqued by Rand and Nyneave healing her madness and cutting her cord to the DO and her turning to the light again.

Just a thought...

[blazetheearth]

I am currently reading `The world of Robert Jordan´s The wheel of time` By Teresa Patterson & Robert Jordan.

In this book I read (probably read over it in the normal books) that when LTT sealed the bore the dark one made his counterstroke.

The book said it isn't clear wether the DO tainted Saidin on purpose or it happened on excident. The book also stated that LTT and his remaining companions didn't went insane because of that taint, but went insane instantly because of that backlash. That made me wondering.

What if Mierin, when opening the bore (unknowingly freeing the DO and had no bad or dark intentions) also got hit by the DO surging through it and got tainted by his dark energies? Maybe she is innocent after all and just got messed up so badly by the DO surge she went kinda insane or her mind wasn't really her own anymore. Perhaps aMoL refers to Mierin being resqued by Rand and Nyneave healing her madness and cutting her cord to the DO and her turning to the light again.

Just a thought...

 

I had the same thoughts about Mierin when reading Rand's trip through the Aiel columns. The only evidence against it is a quote by RJ:

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

 

Otherwise, I think that it is a great thought.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Yeah, that one quote by RJ is a strange one. It seems absolute; I can't see any loopholes in it. But everything in the series itself points the other way, implying that Mierin either isn't evil or is evil under duress. If we take RJ's quote at face value, then it seems particularly likely that Cyndane is going to be the one who kills Rand, because there's nothing else left for her in terms of significance to the plot if she's not going to have some kind of redemption or liberation in AMoL. Then again, RJ was never good at writing evil characters.

 

One interesting thing about fiction is that sometimes the author gets their own characters wrong. Simply being the supreme power over a fantasy universe doesn't guarantee that things will turn out the way you want them to. If RJ was serious that Mierin is a bad apple to the core, he may have defeated himself in trying to present her that way. I presume he would have written Lanfear to be deceptively sympathetic, concealing an inner evil, but he did such a good job that it ended up the other way around: deceptively evil, with a sympathetic core. Except for the people who aren't interested in a close read of the story, and the people who take at face value the cultural assertion that ambition and power are bad things, I doubt anybody who has followed Mierin's story over the course of the series could draw the conclusion that RJ flatly asserted.

[tollstrm]

I think SH's reference to someone else having the job of killing Rand refers to Moridin, not Lanfear. Moridin is the Champion of the Shadow and will face Rand in the end.

 

It was truly Lanfear that was in the dream. Rand recognized her soul (which could be an interesting ability to use on other characters)

 

I agree that Lanfear has never been truly evil, just overly ambitious. I can see her aiding the light in the end.