Asmodean

[FarShainMael]

Well, I'm p***ed off that it wasn't Uno........ :laugh:

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Far be it from me to argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation. But well, I'm gonna argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation The identity of the killer was NOT intuitively obvious @ the time of the murder.

 

 

RJ said "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer". If you're unfamiliar with that idiom, it actually means nothing of the kind. The exact opposite in fact. He did say it could be figured out, but that's not the same thing. It's also not the same thing as "confirmed beyond all doubt", which everyone just seems to assume was what RJ meant.

 

First off let's not take this too seriously. All my arguments on Dragonmount are intended as friendly debates and should be taken in the spirit of good natured ribbing.

 

Intuitively obvious means that upon reading the passage for the first time your mind should automatically tend toward Graendal. Intuition is basically a gut feeling, but it is often based on experience, knowledge and whatever non-conclusive evidence is available. My point is that based on what was available @ the time I just don't see why anyones gut should automatically have lead them toward Graendal any more than Sammael, Lanfear or a myriad of others. I mean at that point in the story we barely knew Graendal.

 

I know a lot of people figured out that it was Graendal after doing some thinking on the subject, but is there anyone out there who can HONESTLY say that upon reading TFoH for the first time just immediately said "oh of course, it was Graendal"? I mean just reading the book without ever having read any of the theories or having been involved in any discussion on the subject prior to reading the book.

[WhiskyJack]

Far be it from me to argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation. But well, I'm gonna argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation The identity of the killer was NOT intuitively obvious @ the time of the murder.

 

 

RJ said "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer". If you're unfamiliar with that idiom, it actually means nothing of the kind. The exact opposite in fact. He did say it could be figured out, but that's not the same thing. It's also not the same thing as "confirmed beyond all doubt", which everyone just seems to assume was what RJ meant.

 

First off let's not take this too seriously. All my arguments on Dragonmount are intended as friendly debates and should be taken in the spirit of good natured ribbing.

 

Intuitively obvious means that upon reading the passage for the first time your mind should automatically tend toward Graendal. Intuition is basically a gut feeling, but it is often based on experience, knowledge and whatever non-conclusive evidence is available. My point is that based on what was available @ the time I just don't see why anyones gut should automatically have lead them toward Graendal any more than Sammael, Lanfear or a myriad of others. I mean at that point in the story we barely knew Graendal.

 

I know a lot of people figured out that it was Graendal after doing some thinking on the subject, but is there anyone out there who can HONESTLY say that upon reading TFoH for the first time just immediately said "oh of course, it was Graendal"? I mean just reading the book without ever having read any of the theories or having been involved in any discussion on the subject prior to reading the book.

intuitively obvious to the most casual observer :

 

Used in an ironic sense to mean that something is completely obvious, when in reality the exact opposite is true

 

So Grandeal an obvious choice, hell no!

[AutomatedTeller]

My reaction on reading about Asmodean's death was "wonder who killed him?" Then I put the book down.

 

It took me years to find a Wheel of Time site and to find out there was a big controversy - I was sure it would just come out at some time. Back when I was naive ;)

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Far be it from me to argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation. But well, I'm gonna argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation The identity of the killer was NOT intuitively obvious @ the time of the murder.

 

 

RJ said "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer". If you're unfamiliar with that idiom, it actually means nothing of the kind. The exact opposite in fact. He did say it could be figured out, but that's not the same thing. It's also not the same thing as "confirmed beyond all doubt", which everyone just seems to assume was what RJ meant.

 

First off let's not take this too seriously. All my arguments on Dragonmount are intended as friendly debates and should be taken in the spirit of good natured ribbing.

 

Intuitively obvious means that upon reading the passage for the first time your mind should automatically tend toward Graendal. Intuition is basically a gut feeling, but it is often based on experience, knowledge and whatever non-conclusive evidence is available. My point is that based on what was available @ the time I just don't see why anyones gut should automatically have lead them toward Graendal any more than Sammael, Lanfear or a myriad of others. I mean at that point in the story we barely knew Graendal.

 

I know a lot of people figured out that it was Graendal after doing some thinking on the subject, but is there anyone out there who can HONESTLY say that upon reading TFoH for the first time just immediately said "oh of course, it was Graendal"? I mean just reading the book without ever having read any of the theories or having been involved in any discussion on the subject prior to reading the book.

intuitively obvious to the most casual observer :

 

Used in an ironic sense to mean that something is completely obvious, when in reality the exact opposite is true

 

So Grandeal an obvious choice, hell no!

 

Wait a second, so RJ was being ironic when he said that?!! huh.

[didymos]

My point is that based on what was available @ the time I just don't see why anyones gut should automatically have lead them toward Graendal any more than Sammael, Lanfear or a myriad of others.

 

And my point was RJ never meant that people should automatically go "Of course! 'Twas Graendal". Again: it could be figured out based on what we knew as of tFoH, but that is not the same thing as confirmed beyond all doubt. It was not supposed to actually be obvious in the way that water is obviously wet. He was being a smart-ass.

[Tom Sawyer]

Anyone else notice that Graendal had Alteima as one of her pets in that cave? She could have gone to poach her after Rahvin died and ran into Asmodean in the hallway. That would fit into RJ's "roadkill" comment.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Jesus Christ! Now people are not happy with the identity of the killer! Looks like Asmo surely "touched" many readers.

 

 

C'mon now, surely you didn't think something as trivial as the identity of the killer was going to end this discussion

[capuga]

The method could be important because it prevents resurrection. It might feature again.

Did she pull him into TAR in the flesh? I'm inclined to that conclusion because of all the Hopper warnings about "Final Death" in TAR.

G may have been sneaking around in TAR and just been in the process of exiting into the real world when Asmo opened the door.

If one reads the description of Egwene's first ride through TAR to Salidar, it wasn't immediately apparent that she had entered TAR in the flesh.

Rahvin was indeed connected via the taint filter cords. Asmo wasn't - that might make a difference even if he wasn't balefired.

Similar arguments exist if we think of Gateways and Skimmers - GLoD's sense of space-time may be scrambled enough.

 

The whole "final death" thing is very confused. Hopper definitely mentions it to Perrin. The implication is that said "final Death" applies to anyone who dies in T'a'r. Yet, T'a'r is where Rand kills Ba'alzamon/Ishamael and he gets transmigrated.

 

So, either that "final death" only applies to wolves or something is very messed up.

 

Rand and Ishy fight in TAR but they step back out into the Stone just before Rand actually kills him.

[Goramier]

I never understood the whole "who killed Asmo" craze. It didn't and still doesn't matter. I have said it before and still do think that when RJ wrote it he never planned it being any big deal at all. Just one of those scenes in the book to cause some speculation but not an entire chain of countless threads and speculation. I bet that after the fans got all into it, he chose to leave it unresolved as it was set up to be very ambiguous and I bet he loved how much the fans got into it.

 

I also bet that the resolution only came as a nod to the fans and had it not blown up into what it was, we would never have been told. As far as bringing back Asmo, that could have been the original reason it was left ambiguous. RJ has tons of characters to work with and didn't need Asmo. Some have been brought back. I suspect it was left ambiguous so the reader would think back on it, or doing a reread, then wonder if and when Asmo would be coming back but that RJ never had planned on it being so.

 

RJ has brought back many fallen forsaken. He chose not to bring back Asmo and I think when he wrote it not only is the above true but it was a way to show that the DO wasn't about to reward a forsaken who tried to or at least did, help the enemy. In other words it was a message to the other forsaken not to try and help Rand and company while keeping it ambiguous enough for fans to wonder if he would ever pop back up.

 

In the end, I bet RJ laughed alot about Asmo. He was a forsaken who came into the books, played his part, died and wasn't to come back but yet held the fans in captivity more so then any other forsaken.

[Caius Callus]

So it wasn't Bela after all.

My second guess was Olver. He is, after all "a budding psychopath", according to some people...

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, it certainly fit. She went to Illian right after Sammael bit the dust to raid stuff, so a similar move in Caemlyn with Rhavin makes sense. And she knew he turned and was with Rand. I'm satisfied.

 

So, if one is keeping score on chosen deaths:

 

1. Balthamel = Green Man. Aran'gar = Rand (Graendal with the assist).

2. Aginor = himself (Rand with the assist). Oran'gar = Elza.

3. Be'lal = Moiriane.

4. Ishamael = Rand. Moridin = still alive.

5. Rhavin = Rand (Nynaeve/Moghedien)

6. Asmodean = Graendal

7. Sammael = Mashadar (Moridin)

8. Lanfear = ?? Finns/Moridin (Moiraine gets the assist). Cyndane still alive.

9. Semirhage = Rand (DO/Moridin)

10. Mesaana = Egwene (OK, she's a veggy, a messy veggy). A little inadvertent help from Graendal/Slayer.

11. Demandred = at large.

12. Graendal = at large.

13. Moghedien = at large.

 

So, if one want to count kills & assists, we'd have the following NOT counting Lanfear's death, since we don't know who killed her.

 

1. Rand: 4 Kills (Ishy, Rhavin, Semi, Aran'gar); 1 Assist (Aginor).

2. Moiraine: 1 Kill (Be'lal); 1 Assist (Lanfear).

3. Graendal: 1 Kill (Asmo); 1 Assist (Aran'gar)

4. Green Man 1 Kill (Ballthamel)

5. Elza: 1 Kill (Oran'gar)

6. Moridn: 1 Assist (Sammael) + 1 other assist (known or unknown) (Semi) + maybe 1 direct kill (Lanfear)

7. Nynaeve/Moghedein: 1 Assist between them (Rhavin)

8. Eggy: 1 permanently broken (Messy).

 

Just notice how many deaths wouldn't have been possible without Chosen, DO, or DF help (Rhavin, Asmo, Sammael, Oran'gar, Semi, Aran'gar). Even Mesaana wouldn't have happened w/out Graendal (though she didn't consciously help). Still, every Chosen's permanent removal from the field has been accomplished with Chosen/DF/DO aid, except for Be'lal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Rand and Ishy fight in TAR but they step back out into the Stone just before Rand actually kills him.

 

Nope. They only pop back into reality after Ba'alzamon is a smoking corpse.

 

"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel black lines around Ba'alzamon and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.

 

Ba'alzamon screamed and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he shouted. " The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"

 

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body staggered and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

 

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai was dead before his body hit the ground.

[capuga]

 

Rand and Ishy fight in TAR but they step back out into the Stone just before Rand actually kills him.

 

Nope. They only pop back into reality after Ba'alzamon is a smoking corpse.

 

"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel black lines around Ba'alzamon and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.

 

Ba'alzamon screamed and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he shouted. " The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"

 

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body staggered and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

 

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai was dead before his body hit the ground.

 

Well there goes my rationalization for how someone dying in TAR is the final death but Ishy came back as Moridin. Perhaps the final death only applies to wolves (and possibly other animals i.e. the stag)?

[didymos]

Well there goes my rationalization for how someone dying in TAR is the final death but Ishy came back as Moridin. Perhaps the final death only applies to wolves (and possibly other animals i.e. the stag)?

 

Pretty sure it goes for Heroes of the Horn too.

[grungys]

Well there goes my rationalization for how someone dying in TAR is the final death but Ishy came back as Moridin. Perhaps the final death only applies to wolves (and possibly other animals i.e. the stag)?

 

Pretty sure it goes for Heroes of the Horn too.

 

 

Could be a distinction between "in the flesh" and "in the dream."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well there goes my rationalization for how someone dying in TAR is the final death but Ishy came back as Moridin. Perhaps the final death only applies to wolves (and possibly other animals i.e. the stag)?

 

Pretty sure it goes for Heroes of the Horn too.

 

Yeah, me too. I kinda think that that is what Lanfear and Moggy have mostly been up to. Hunting down Heroes in T'a'r. I've thought since Justice was found in the real world that the only way that happens is if Hawkwing is truly dead.

 

My fear is that if/when Mat sounds the Horn of Valere, that few if any are called.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

The method could be important because it prevents resurrection. It might feature again.

Did she pull him into TAR in the flesh? I'm inclined to that conclusion because of all the Hopper warnings about "Final Death" in TAR.

G may have been sneaking around in TAR and just been in the process of exiting into the real world when Asmo opened the door.

If one reads the description of Egwene's first ride through TAR to Salidar, it wasn't immediately apparent that she had entered TAR in the flesh.

Rahvin was indeed connected via the taint filter cords. Asmo wasn't - that might make a difference even if he wasn't balefired.

Similar arguments exist if we think of Gateways and Skimmers - GLoD's sense of space-time may be scrambled enough.

 

The whole "final death" thing is very confused. Hopper definitely mentions it to Perrin. The implication is that said "final Death" applies to anyone who dies in T'a'r. Yet, T'a'r is where Rand kills Ba'alzamon/Ishamael and he gets transmigrated.

 

So, either that "final death" only applies to wolves or something is very messed up.

 

 

I don't think it only applies to wolves, but it is something that is very relevant to them since all wolves go to TAR when they die. Of course once the wolves are in TAR they can die again and what becomes of them after this second death is not know, seemingly even to the wolves. RJ did confirm that there is an afterlife in the WOT world and while he didn't elaborate I like to think that it is a good place and the wolves killed in TAR go there. Whatever the case, the final death is something that wolves dread, however this might be out of ignorance of what lies beyond (the same reason most humans fear death) or perhaps because it removes them from participation in The Last Hunt. And I do believe that the wolves in TAR will play a role in The Last Hunt. It is possible that something else lies in store for wolves killed in TAR and that the DO could transmigrate their souls his he chose. In fact that might just be how darkhounds are made.

[Sharaman]

What about skimmer/ gateway ? GLoD's sense of space may be scrambled since for a while, an object going through a Gate is in two places.

[Gythwyn]

With dying in TAR, I think it only applies if its your only existence.

 

I see it as where the 'spirit' lives if it can. Animals, Heroes etc are just 'spirits' living on and its the only place they can live.

 

If you're there in the flesh, you have a physical embodiment that protects you somewhat (insofar as allowing you to be reborn).

 

Same with dreaming, its your spirit thats there.

 

 

Only problem is how Birgette gets forced out :/

[WhiskyJack]

I am pretty sure RJ has said that dragon cannot be "erased" truly from pattern as long as wheel exists. So I am not sure about the others but wheel will resurrect dragon, irrespective of how he dies.

[Caius Callus]

Yes, the "Dragon" appears to be one piece in the game that will always appear at the required stage, as long as there's a game being played. Whether he'll succeed or fail seems irrelevant to the Pattern; What matters is that all the required pieces are on the board.

[knutz]

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

 

I think he meant the glossary. It wasn't until chapter 5 that Moridin dropped the big hint (the "becoming a habit" bit and asking if she was claiming Aran'gar was a traitor), and it wasn't until Mesaana was (mostly) dead that Shaidar Haran explicitly said she was responsible for the loss of three Chosen.

 

Never mentioned by name though, and Graendal was always afraid that the DO would know about her part in Sammael's death (driving him at Rand against the DO's instructions then sitting back and watching it unfold) so if Asmodean is included this would make 4 chosen, not 3.

 

There is no reason to think that is was chosen who did it. Only needed to be someone Asmo knew on sight, and since we have no idea how many people he knew - could be anyone. My vote is Verin.

[Gerrendus]

Yeah, me too. I kinda think that that is what Lanfear and Moggy have mostly been up to. Hunting down Heroes in T'a'r. I've thought since Justice was found in the real world that the only way that happens is if Hawkwing is truly dead.

 

My fear is that if/when Mat sounds the Horn of Valere, that few if any are called.

 

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

[Lironah]

Yeah, me too. I kinda think that that is what Lanfear and Moggy have mostly been up to. Hunting down Heroes in T'a'r. I've thought since Justice was found in the real world that the only way that happens is if Hawkwing is truly dead.

 

My fear is that if/when Mat sounds the Horn of Valere, that few if any are called.

 

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

 

We're pretty sure that it's the one Rand has now. He's seen it before (when the Horn of Valere was sounded) and it's been buried for hundreds of years. It's not from Lews Therin's memories, so that pretty much leaves out any other possibilities.