Moiraine

[didymos]

Min thought that the only way for Rand to survive the last battle was with help of one woman. But that it was impossible since she was dead.

 

can't remember where I read this, but I instantly thought of Moiraine.

 

It wasn't that Rand wouldn't survive. It was that he "would almost certainly fail" without her. I.e., nobody would survive. And yes, it was Moiraine: when Min meets Moiraine's cousin Caraline later in aCoS, we're told that "Moraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

One thing is bothering me..

 

Say it is Moridin that went to get Lanfear and was presented Moiraine instead. Why didn't Moridin (or whoever) try to take her out as in kill her or kidnap her? surely Moridin would know who she was considering she was at Rands side practically all the time until she went to Finnland. Surely Moridin could have taken her and mind trapped her? or turned her? i mean they passed up a HUGE opportunity to do massive damage, at least emotionally to Rand.

 

Rand thinks she's dead and all of a sudden Moridin shows up with a turned Moiraine and Lanfear. now that would have been so much more devastating.

[Byzantine279]

Trying to would likely have broken the treaty, User. And not even the strongest channelers can take Finn's lightly, how else could they have captured Lanfear and Moiraine?

 

And likely the DO wanted Lanfear back and whatever price he payed was only good for one person.

[Jeangray]

Wouldn't Moridin consider Moiraine as good as dead already? And maybe, given his sometimes funky knowledge of the future he even counted on Mat being drawn into Finnland to try to rescue her and getting removed from the picture as well. The Tear doorframe was broken for a reason, IMHO.

[nleseul]

Say it is Moridin that went to get Lanfear and was presented Moiraine instead. Why didn't Moridin (or whoever) try to take her out as in kill her or kidnap her? surely Moridin would know who she was considering she was at Rands side practically all the time until she went to Finnland. Surely Moridin could have taken her and mind trapped her? or turned her? i mean they passed up a HUGE opportunity to do massive damage, at least emotionally to Rand.

 

That seems to me like a reason why it was probably Slayer rather than Moridin.

[Sharaman]

Say it is Moridin that went to get Lanfear and was presented Moiraine instead. Why didn't Moridin (or whoever) try to take her out as in kill her or kidnap her? surely Moridin would know who she was considering she was at Rands side practically all the time until she went to Finnland. Surely Moridin could have taken her and mind trapped her? or turned her? i mean they passed up a HUGE opportunity to do massive damage, at least emotionally to Rand.

 

That seems to me like a reason why it was probably Slayer rather than Moridin.

Or drum rolls!!! Demandred

[dwn]

Say it is Moridin that went to get Lanfear and was presented Moiraine instead. Why didn't Moridin (or whoever) try to take her out as in kill her or kidnap her? surely Moridin would know who she was considering she was at Rands side practically all the time until she went to Finnland. Surely Moridin could have taken her and mind trapped her? or turned her? i mean they passed up a HUGE opportunity to do massive damage, at least emotionally to Rand.

 

That seems to me like a reason why it was probably Slayer rather than Moridin.

 

As many people have pointed out, Moiraine would have instantly noted Slayer's resemblance to Lan or Rand. It'd also be silly for Moridin to send a weapon like Slayer into a situation where intelligent negotiation is needed. It's even sillier to think that Slayer makes a habit of going in and out of the ToG, which is the only basis for the notion that Slayer secured Lanfear's release.

 

I should also point out that whoever went in would need to be highly fluent in the Old Tongue.

 

-- dwn

[TheAngryDruid]

My two cents.

 

The man who came to see Lanfear. I lean toward Moridin or Demandred for three reasons. One, Mo could have recognized Luc/Isam. Two, I lean towards a channeler because the Doorway in Tear is destroyed, could Slayer have done that? Three, the added traps added to Callandor that Narishma complains about and Rand keeps saying he told him all about. Seems like a good thing to do while in Tear going through the gateway (as we know the man probably went through, as it appears the treaty applies to them).

 

Moiraine's strength. Though I hope she will be healed by Damer, I kind of doubt it. This whole draining of the ability to channel was kind of disappointing to me. Still, and having Cyndane dead from the draining, but not fully drained (in fact, drained less than Mo) is too cute by half. Or something is fishy. Anyway, once they learn stilling can be cured, it would certainly be worth a shot. Rand will want/need all the strength he can muster. Personally, I'd love to see them all healed. We all know that there is no such thing as waiting too long for something to be healed (as I remember someone saying that only Semirhage had the skill now to remove Sammael's scar (and that is 3,000 years old). I have the feeling some things can be healed again, if a different weave is used.

 

Anyway, while I think it could be possible, the presence of the angreal makes me think it won't even be broached.

[f3llyn]

Say it is Moridin that went to get Lanfear and was presented Moiraine instead. Why didn't Moridin (or whoever) try to take her out as in kill her or kidnap her? surely Moridin would know who she was considering she was at Rands side practically all the time until she went to Finnland. Surely Moridin could have taken her and mind trapped her? or turned her? i mean they passed up a HUGE opportunity to do massive damage, at least emotionally to Rand.

 

That seems to me like a reason why it was probably Slayer rather than Moridin.

 

As many people have pointed out, Moiraine would have instantly noted Slayer's resemblance to Lan or Rand. It'd also be silly for Moridin to send a weapon like Slayer into a situation where intelligent negotiation is needed. It's even sillier to think that Slayer makes a habit of going in and out of the ToG, which is the only basis for the notion that Slayer secured Lanfear's release.

 

I should also point out that whoever went in would need to be highly fluent in the Old Tongue.

 

-- dwn

Unless of course Moiraine was barely conscious which is what I think we were supposed to be lead to believe. Then she wouldn't have noticed those characteristics. She's being tortured so how lucid do you think she actually was the entire time?

[Cirin]

The whole draining of powers did not come to me as any surprise at all... in fact, I didn't think she'd be able to channel at all afterwards. Not sure why, but for some reason I was always under the impression that it had been stated or suggested previously that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had that effect on channelers. For some reason, I've always thought she'd be powerless since at least from book 9 (that's how many were out when I started reading, so I read them all in about a week and a half, so not sure whereabouts that idea came from)... weird.

[dwn]

Say it is Moridin that went to get Lanfear and was presented Moiraine instead. Why didn't Moridin (or whoever) try to take her out as in kill her or kidnap her? surely Moridin would know who she was considering she was at Rands side practically all the time until she went to Finnland. Surely Moridin could have taken her and mind trapped her? or turned her? i mean they passed up a HUGE opportunity to do massive damage, at least emotionally to Rand.

 

That seems to me like a reason why it was probably Slayer rather than Moridin.

 

As many people have pointed out, Moiraine would have instantly noted Slayer's resemblance to Lan or Rand. It'd also be silly for Moridin to send a weapon like Slayer into a situation where intelligent negotiation is needed. It's even sillier to think that Slayer makes a habit of going in and out of the ToG, which is the only basis for the notion that Slayer secured Lanfear's release.

 

I should also point out that whoever went in would need to be highly fluent in the Old Tongue.

 

-- dwn

Unless of course Moiraine was barely conscious which is what I think we were supposed to be lead to believe. Then she wouldn't have noticed those characteristics. She's being tortured so how lucid do you think she actually was the entire time?

 

That's a reasonable counterargument to one point. What about the other three?

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

I don't have any idea who the man was. But.. we saw how Graendal could look through an animals eyes and control their movements, what's to say using the True Power and complusion Moridin couldn't do that with one of his lackeys? That way he could get what he wanted without risk to someone important.

 

Just a thought.

[Mooka]

Noal = random Star Trek crewman.

 

 

 

You just knew he didn't stand a chance.

[Cirin]

If we're looking for strange men with power that Moiraine wouldn't recognize, it could be Taim as well... probably Moridin, though.

[smileyman]

Noal = random Star Trek crewman.

 

 

 

You just knew he didn't stand a chance.

 

 

Was he wearing a red shirt?

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Noal = random Star Trek crewman.

 

 

 

You just knew he didn't stand a chance.

 

 

Was he wearing a red shirt?

 

I'd hardly call Jain Farstrider a Red Shirt. he's practically mentioned in every single book.

[didymos]

Noal = random Star Trek crewman.

 

 

 

You just knew he didn't stand a chance.

 

Funny how he lasted through so many books and multiple fights, given that.

[dyoung]

I thought for the longest time that the reason Lanfear was drained was because it w one of Moiraine's three wishes. I thought she asked for part of Lanfear's gift and used her other two wishes wisely to remain alive, where as Lanfear was killed by the Finns. I always thought she would be coming out stronger. It was a surprise to see her coming out weakened (at least without the angreal). I thought it was overdone on Jordan's part to have the three women--Moiraine, Suian and Leanne--who worked the longest to see the Dragon Reborn succeed have to pay such a high price. It's a good moral, but I was still disappointed!

[smileyman]

Noal = random Star Trek crewman.

 

 

 

You just knew he didn't stand a chance.

 

 

Was he wearing a red shirt?

 

I'd hardly call Jain Farstrider a Red Shirt. he's practically mentioned in every single book.

 

I am aware of that. It was a joke, referring to Mooka's comment about Noal being the random Star Trek crewman.

[Lironah]

I thought for the longest time that the reason Lanfear was drained was because it w one of Moiraine's three wishes. I thought she asked for part of Lanfear's gift and used her other two wishes wisely to remain alive, where as Lanfear was killed by the Finns. I always thought she would be coming out stronger. It was a surprise to see her coming out weakened (at least without the angreal). I thought it was overdone on Jordan's part to have the three women--Moiraine, Suian and Leanne--who worked the longest to see the Dragon Reborn succeed have to pay such a high price. It's a good moral, but I was still disappointed!

 

We know that one of her wishes was to keep the angreal she'd taken in with her. I wonder if another of her wishes was that Lanfear wouldn't be able to leave. At the very least, Moiraine should have seen a way out in the rings, but perhaps she saw that if she asked for a way out, Lanfear would see her do it and ask the same thing. Another thing she might have wished was that Thom would find her in that room when he got there. It seemed a little odd for her to be there waiting for them, when there's all kinds of space they could have hidden her in, making them spend another request most likely.

[f3llyn]

Didn't she mention that she knew even if she asked for an exit she never would have made it out because they'd all been destroyed? Only Mat had the key.

[Ltsegarra]

Moridin = Taim . The black tower has been subverted. Anyway about Moraine. I also believe her purpose is to be the other female channeled with Nynaneve. These are the only two women that Rand has been shown to trust. I think Nynaneve is for power and Moiraine is to allow Rand to finally be able to forgive himself. Remember as Rand recites the litany of death, hers is the first one he blames himself for. Not to mention she was the first to sacrifice herself for Rand.

Im going to make a pediction as Robert Jordan has written time and again, "death cannot be undone" or something like that... I think Nynanaeve had been shown to undo a lot of things... Stilling, now madness...and maybe with Moiraine Rand's prophecized death?

[f3llyn]

I'm pretty Rand reconciled himself with her apparent death when he came to his realization at the end of TGS. He now see's that he can't control everything and protect everyone so it's not his fault. Could be wrong about that though.

[Deadsy]

I'm pretty Rand reconciled himself with her apparent death when he came to his realization at the end of TGS.

 

Not completely. He is still feels guilty about other people he's responsible for killing. Like the King of Arad Doman. And he also feels guilty about other things that have gone wrong because of him.

[Moogle]

I thought the answer to Cyndane was "intuitively obvious".

 

Slayer goes into the ToG (Perrin sees him do this), he finds Moiraine and Lanfear (Moiraine sees some man say something about her not being the one he was looking for), and then kills Lanfear. No bargaining. Slayer's particular skills allow him to find them quickly or something (hey, he can go in and out of TaR without channeling), without bargaining. Lanfear has been fed on a little bit by this point, and then she is transmigrated. Her loss of power carries through, she gets her new body, Cyndane.

 

No crazy healing by Black Ajah theories needed, no need to discuss the metaphysics of being stilled/severed/burned out and being fed on.

 

The Finns lie to Moiraine. They didn't want to give her hope of rescue or death.