The Luckers Official Review.

[yoniy0]

I'm curious as to what your thoughts on Elayne are. Personally I found her POV to be the hardest to read (again).

Elayne never really bothers me. She is overly mercantile, and I suspect Egwene will have something to say about the Kin--but thats it.

You see, I LOVE Elayne. She's my gal. Well, when Rand isn't around. And she wasn't quite herself - in my book.

 

So, is it okay to complain that not enough has happened in ToM? I was waiting for SO much more stuff. Where are the Seanchan? Trollocs only made a few cameos outside the Borderlands (I don't count Caemlyn. That's basically saying "look, they'll play a role in AMoL". Yeah, Brandon, I already had an inkling that might happen ). Moiraine didn't have time to do anything, though I suspected she might not from the start. Mat just kicked that gholam around, dropped the plans for Dragons by Elayne's, paid Perrin a short visit and went to 'finnland. And Perrin, well he was busy, sure enough. Him I liked, but Perrin doesn't do it for me, I need MORE.

 

I'm with you on that Rhuidean viewing, by the way. Not so much because what happened to the Aiel, but because I can't stand the Seanchan winning WITH the a'dam. Relinquish that (and da'coval), and I don't mind them unifying Randland under their banner.

[A. Pseudonym]

Rand is manipulating Egwene.

 

He tells her he's gonna break the seals, without explaining himself, knowing she'll oppose him and look for support throughout the world.

 

He got her to assemble his army for him.

 

As soon as he turns up at Merrilor his magic charisma will persuade everyone he's right and all that will be left to do is skip merrily (hah) along to Shayol Ghul.

 

Neat....

[Terez]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

Trust me, you don't want to know.

2nded

3rded, but I'm going to tell him anyway. Richard Rahl is this dude. He was raised in the forest. He has a brother who outlawed fire. One day Dick was walking through the forest when he met this chick in a white dress. She happened to be looking for his grandfather, who everyone thought was just this random crazy old dude but was really the greatest magician in the world. (This is not a fantasy story - it just has magic in it.) Anyway, Dick and the chick fall immediately in love, but Dick cannot touch the chick because she will eat his soul if he does (but she's a nice girl). She leads him across a magic barrier to the real world where the magic is. His grandfather was hiding from it. Dick finds out that his real dad is the Evil Emperor to the East, who raped his mother (daughter of Merlin, I mean Zedd) and eats babies for breakfast. Action ensues. Aside from the fact that there are only these three characters really - no one else is important - the first few books aren't bad. Dick learns a little about his powerz from the Sisters of the Light (with a few Sisters of the Dark hidden among them, of course). But since Dick has become the most important person in the world, he starts to talk a lot - Dick has a lot of ideas about how the world should be - and the people around him either listen to him with rapt expressions on their faces and thoughts about how blessed they are to hear his words, or they at random times decide he is an idiot, as if they do not know that he is always right.

 

The best book is #6 when he singlehandedly wages war on the Evil Empire of Socialism to the South, hidden beyond yet another magic barrier for thousands of years. The Evil Empire's army is up north destroying Dick's lands while he is down South spreading the word of Rand. His Revolution spreads like wildfire, but eventually he must return to the distant North and his magic castle of Important Human Themes (such as Kicking Annoying Little Girls in the Face). After that, the story goes off and does some random things elsewhere for about five books. Tairy saw that this had worked for RJ, so he decided to do it too. And the astute reader would have been eagerly anticipating that wildfire revolution coming up from the south. But it never came. Probably because they all decided to take a break about halfway there and have a philosophical discussion about the evils of socialism, and the Inherent Nobility of the Individual.

 

Throughout the course of the story, the chick in the white dress gets almost raped several times, and eventually she is captured by the Sisters of the Dark, who wish to manipulate her soul-eating powerz (which Dick turned out to be immune to after all). And in the end, Dick starts yet another Revolution within the evil camp of the Evil Empire of the South's armies (which are, of course, in the north). But that fizzles out as well, and Dick ends up having to transport the worthy minority of the population to another world and leave the evil ones to kill each other off, because it turns out that the Individual Isn't Very Inherently Noble After All. Dick leaves his sisters and brothers with the evil people, not because they were evil, but because they had the potential to destroy magical abilities by cross-breeding, and Dick wasn't having that, because then his new world would have been just like actual fantasy stories - without magic.

 

The End.

[dwn]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

Trust me, you don't want to know.

2nded

[snip a sadly accurate summary of The Sword of Truth series]

 

The End.

 

Truly inspired. I have to assume the ending is correct, though, because I never did get further than book 6.

 

-- dwn

[Terez]

I don't blame you. I'm not sure why I finished it. Curiosity, I think. It was even worse than I expected it to be.

[Loophole]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

Trust me, you don't want to know.

2nded

[snip a sadly accurate summary of The Sword of Truth series]

 

The End.

 

Truly inspired. I have to assume the ending is correct, though, because I never did get further than book 6.

 

-- dwn

 

Haha, it was quite accurate, no matter how ridiculous the end may sound, I assure you it is true. I may send this to a friend who has just started the series. I warned him but he continues to press on!

[Duskfire]

I have a friend who is a huge fan of Sword of Truth and even thinks its better then WoT and the amount of arguments him and I have. I can understand why some prefer A Song of ice and Fire, Robin Hobb, etc etc. But Sword of Truth... argh. Needless to say, I trust his opinion about as much as I would trust Slayers.

[benr]

Luckers - haven't been around for a while; nice to see some of the old "faces". Anyways, nice job. I, too, am concerned with the direction for Rand, but (somewhat) trust it is a bit of a red herring. I found Nyn's curing of madness awesome, and her viewing of Rand's mind chilling.

 

As to Mat's letter - I found it quintessential Mat; I thought he was being sarcastic and demanding, after being ignored by Elayne on his previous letter. Perhaps that would have been more obvious if we had seen that. I, too, laughed out loud.

 

This was the first time I didn't do a complete read through in a long time; just AMoL. If I'm going to do a complete one before the last book, I'd better start now. Right now, I think this is the best book of the series, but that could change with a re-read. I liked AMoL more the second time, through.

[Morsker]

Olver

 

Creepy little bastard, isn't he. Budding sociopath in my opinion. Well played Brandon, well played.

 

I mentioned this in the Verin thread also, but I don't like this analysis. If we look at a female child and interpret everything as a "warning sign" of self-harm, feminists rightly object that it's sexist and oppressive. But no one defends male children, if we subject them to parallel stereotypes, where everything is a "warning sign" of criminal behavior. It's equally unfair.

 

Besides which, the analysis isn't even on the mark. The supposedly path sociopaths take is to start as lifelong abuse victims, who start doing destructive things like setting fires or torturing animals in a desperate attempt to feel powerful, and eventually hurt humans. I have my misgivings even about that, since it doesn't explain salesmen; not all sociopaths are murderers; many are salesmen.

 

Regardless, none of that is Olver. Olver is being setup as a tragic hero.

[Luckers]

I'd call a female child up as a potential sociopath if she thought only about relative control--and you are incorrect about sociopathy. Sociopaths are not necessarily psychopaths--both are results of anti-social personality disorder under the DSMiV--which is what you are referring to when you speak of those who start by lighting fires or torturing animals--sociopathy is an inability to connect with others, resulting in reguarding others as functional values. Interpersonal skills are mimicked to achieve effects, not to make connections. This often leads to psycopathy--murdering much as you described--though not always.

 

In any case Olver is plotting for the time when he holds power, when Mat is forced to follow him--what affection he holds Mat, he holds with the understanding that it will be reversed in the future--its a functional value. He must follow Mat now so that Mat follows him later. He shows no true understanding of interpersonal relationships, and understands concepts such as manners only as strictures that must be understood in order to be utilized as tools for interactions with others. Were he a she, I'd make precisely the same points. And they are signs of a budding sociopath.

[Zefram]

I have a friend who is a huge fan of Sword of Truth and even thinks its better then WoT and the amount of arguments him and I have. I can understand why some prefer A Song of ice and Fire, Robin Hobb, etc etc. But Sword of Truth... argh. Needless to say, I trust his opinion about as much as I would trust Slayers.

 

A bit of political info here. The author of Sword of Truth is a HUGE fan of Objectivist and injected a lot of its philosophy into his books especially Sword of Truth. Objectivist philisophy was created by Ayn Rand, who just happen to be ideological leader of Tea Party and Glenn Beck.

[nolirion]

 

I'm not sure what I think of Rand. He was kind of like what I think would happen if Buddha and Jesus had a philosophical love baby that was then raised by King Arthur.

 

You had me there

• Borderlanders – He shall stand before you. The Dragon. You shall spank him.

Then you finish me with that.

 

 

Nice review totally agree on the Lanfear trap thing but it is not that subtle .

[TheAngryDruid]

Nice review, Luckers. I thought the book was enjoyable, but was disappointed in many sections, and it felt like a tease in so many others. For me:

 

Favorites: tSR, tFOH, tGH, LoC

Next best: tEoTW, tGS,

Still enjoyed: tDR, ToM, aCoS, NS, tPOD, WH, KoD

Not so much: CoT

 

I didn't think it flowed as well, nor was it as thematically elegant as tGS (or even a book that most disliked, but I found to be conceptually very well done, like tPoD). Part of it was the hand that BS was dealt, he had a LOT to get through, and did a wonderful job with a lot of it.

 

Still, so much stuff was teased and it felt like a cliffhanger at the end, and I generally don't like books to end that way. We never get an actual Eggy/Rand conversation. We never get the meeting at the end. No Moiraine reunions of significance. Rand's plans are basically kept mum, and despite the fact he had a month, he looks to have only a week or so activity. Same for Egwene, really. Almost nothing from Tuon in a month?

 

Plus, some things were just too stretched for me. No movement on the Seanchan front despite it being 1 day before Rand is planning to break the seals? Wouldn't Buddha Rand think that one more visit might be worth it? Or at least another go? Too little attention to the BT both from Eggy and Rand. What, hundreds of partially insane male channelers possibly under DF control, and no one can find Logain, but I'll leave it to the day before to send Naeff, despite the fact I can't make a gateway there (and have to suspect a dreamspike). Ditto with Egwene, she sent messengers to the Salidar camp, but just left them there? Rand also promised to aid Lan, and that hasn't happened. Egwene's blindness with the assassin's. Elayne's charging headlong in, again. Mat's still too stubborn to refuse healing from Moiraine? And Verin doesn't seem one to leave a huge thing like that to chance. Disappointed there, big time.

 

Though I'm in the minority, I was also disappointed with Mat. I found the letter to Elayne cringe worthy, as is his whole "no woman can withstand my smile" bit. He decides to wing his requests despite having Thom there to work it out ahead of time (not that it would have helped, but it was still dumb).

 

Yes, some progress and some very nice moments. Nynaeve was indeed my favorite this book (too bad only 2 scenes). Cadsuane and Rand are in a nice place. The battle at Maradon was awesome. I though the Perrin getting into TV right as Eggy was facing Mesaana in T'A'R was a bit forced to me. I'd much have rather seen Perrin deal with Slayer and Eggy with Mesaana on their own, though this would have deprived us of the Perrin/Neo moment: "Hopper, are you saying I'll be able to dodge balefire?" Hopper: "When you are ready Perrin, I'm saying you won't have to."

 

Thought Hopper's end, the making of the Hammer, and the Faile/Perrin anniversary scene were great. As was Aviendha's journey in Rhuidean.

 

Good for me, but far from my favorite.

[A. Pseudonym]

He shows no true understanding of interpersonal relationships, and understands concepts such as manners only as strictures that must be understood in order to be utilized as tools for interactions with others.

 

What else are they?

 

One can become consumed by the romantic ideals of friendship and love being more than their experiential effects... but that is not being realistic.

Humans form relationships out of mutual self-interest, not the selfless sacrifice of idealistic altruism. It is why social animals evolved; it's advantageous to the survival of the individual to associate with another likeminded individual. No act is selfless when performed by a conscious being subject to biological and psychological needs/wants; there is always the payoff, be it the survival of ones whose existence you are invested in, or the more usual feelings of self-gratification. Even Rand wants to save the world so that he can feel love again.

 

Now, Olver wants to avenge his father's death. To do this, he plans to go and ask the only people in the world who are likely to know who his target is - should he not attempt to avenge his father? He has been adopted by various soldiers whose characters have rubbed off on him, most notably Mat - is Mat a sociopath?

 

Aside from the psychobabble, I agree with you. Olver displays a level of calculation, foreplanning and drive that I find somewhat hard to believe in a child.

When I read it myself, I put it down to Sanderson... put perhaps there is something more to it.

 

Objectivist philisophy was created by Ayn Rand, who just happen to be ideological leader of Tea Party and Glenn Beck.

 

So it's evil?

Guilt by association.

 

Goodkind is a joke, but the philosophy he pirated is not.

[Maji]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

Trust me, you don't want to know.

2nded

Anyway, Dick and the chick fall immediately in love, but Dick cannot touch the chick because she will eat his soul if he does (but she's a nice girl).

 

I started laughing out loud when I read this line. It's accurate though. Terrible books, but an unimaginative author (which becomes more apparent as the series literally drags on.) Like Terez I'm not sure why I finished it either, curiosity probably. >_>p I heard his new book the Nine of Nines or whatever it's called has the main characters name as Rahl also. Goodkind is definitely the Badkind of author, I'm in the group that finds a lot of his details in his worlds a little too familiar... Sisters of Light, come on... D;

 

 

Back to TofM, I really enjoyed Mat and even Perrin (after a few painfully slow chapters that I could have done without. I like how Perrin finally saw Mat again for the first time since TSR and how he saw Egwene again too). Elayne wasn't even that bad this time around, maybe because her portions were so large as they were in KoD. Cadsuane still feels off but I'm ok with it since I like her more this way to be honest... xD

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm in the group that finds a lot of his details in his worlds a little too familiar... Sisters of Light, come on... D;

 

Well, it's not like RJ was any better on that issue. I mean a prophesized saviour leading a group of super-soldiers from a desert with the help of a mysterious order of witches? That's the plot of Dune, FFS. I spent the first six books waiting for Rand to turn into a big worm.

 

There's a lot to trash Goodkind over, but the general plot theft which is endemic to all fantasy writers isn't something that really distinguishes him from others.

[yoniy0]

Let's stick to discussion of ToM, what do you say?

 

@WoTLuckers, I disagree with your interpretation of Olver. The boy is hurting, and he idolizes Mat. That's all I got from his PoV. He didn't strike me as a user, he just can't fathom going after his parents' killer without Mat there beside him. I daresay he can't fathom life itself without Mat. It's not unusual that he clings to Mat, since he HAS lost his parents. I can't say I take issue with his wanting to get revenge on the Shaido, as well. It's misguided, but he's still a child. Many a man would feel the same way, I think.

[Ahaz Flagg]

I am not sure i would agree that this was one of the best, it was well done for sure. Brandon has done an awesome job, I was expecting more form the Rescue for sure. I am not sure if the redemption of Perrin was planned by RJ, or made by Brandon. At any rate, Perrin is seeming better for now, still cannot stand Faile, and i would be rather upset if i liked her.

 

I loved when when Mat snuck up on perrin, that whole scene was well done. Rand is not the same at all, not should he ever be. That whole scene telling Cadsuane to call him Rand Sedai was priceless, one of my favs of this book. This book to me was right in the middle, Where as the last one i had as my favorite. the last one was so damn dark, and you could feel the darkeness coming of the pages. However, we did need all these scenes to complete the book.

 

One last thing on Egwene, she is still the same person, of all the main ones she has grown the least imho, she still and i guess always will feel she knows better than everyone else, that is why i dislike her, and I hope Perrin sticks to his guns and stands up to her.

[Terez]

Let's stick to discussion of ToM, what do you say?

Blame Luckers. He's the one who compared Rand to Dick.

[yoniy0]

Blame Luckers.

Oh you know me. I'm all for that.

[Shard]

I really don't liken Rand to a Buddah-Jesus, for starters he has no problem using threats and violence he's just a TON calmer about it. I don't think he's perfect or infallible when he did that massive attack at Maradon he said that if a Forsaken came right then and there he would be finished.

 

He had no problem threatening Egwene to let him go and he started to freak out at the Borderlanders when they mentioned that one woman that died in the AoL. I think a Buddah-Jesus would have made more time for Egwene to convince her of not only his plans but that he was sane enough to be free. A Buddah-Jesus would have faith that though his "Dark Friend vision" wasn't detecting any DF's with the Borderlanders that there must be a good reason for them to know that name and no need to resort to yelling.

 

Rand is not perfect or almighty, just at peace with what he has to do, has come to accept that he will die but in doing so make the world a better place.

[The Doctor]

One of my favorites as well... although I'm a little upset to learn what a sociopath is... because I think I fit much of the criteria.

 

I am also in agreement that Rand was manipulating Egwene into gathering his 'opposition' and depositing them where he needs them to be for The Last Battle.

 

Great review! I'd like to add that the red masked Aiel, creepy, I bet they are possessed by Mashadar/Fain like the Trollocs in the prologue.

[Luckers]

He shows no true understanding of interpersonal relationships, and understands concepts such as manners only as strictures that must be understood in order to be utilized as tools for interactions with others.

 

What else are they?

 

Standardly? Trained social responses. Utilized largely without concious effort. They are also adaptive responses, used with an intuitive understanding of the social situation. Not so with Olver. For him the application of manners is a deductive response. Note his thoughts in reguards to the opening of a letter.

 

Olver frowned, turning the small letter over. He had seen Mat carrying it about. Why had he not opened it? That was downright rude. Setalle had worked hard to explain propriety to Olver, and whilst most of what she said made no sense--he just nodded his head so she let him snuggled up to her--he was sure you were supposed to open letters people sent to you, and respond kindly.

 

He does not understand the purpose or use of manners, but percieves their social function, and applies them with intentional care. This is not the function of a normal person--empathy dictates the application of manners, not cold cunning.

 

One can become consumed by the romantic ideals of friendship and love being more than their experiential effects... but that is not being realistic.

Humans form relationships out of mutual self-interest, not the selfless sacrifice of idealistic altruism. It is why social animals evolved; it's advantageous to the survival of the individual to associate with another likeminded individual. No act is selfless when performed by a conscious being subject to biological and psychological needs/wants; there is always the payoff, be it the survival of ones whose existence you are invested in, or the more usual feelings of self-gratification. Even Rand wants to save the world so that he can feel love again.

 

Indeed, you are correct so far as you go. Selfishness is a biological imperative... in fact, you might say that sociopathy is the finest manifestation of the selfish biological imperative. Yet nevertheless empathy is a function of that same biological imperative. Taking the cynical view it is a developed response born of the concept of 'pack'. If members of the pack are willing to take harm for another, it increases the chances for the survival of the greater social group. It also enslaves members to that social group, so that the individual serves the species rather than the species serving the individual.

 

That is the danger of sociopathy. It exploits social connections for the service of self--and it is not a normal or productive mindscape. Lacking the empathy directive to match the selfish directive, people become pawns. So it is with Olver.

 

Now, Olver wants to avenge his father's death. To do this, he plans to go and ask the only people in the world who are likely to know who his target is - should he not attempt to avenge his father? He has been adopted by various soldiers whose characters have rubbed off on him, most notably Mat - is Mat a sociopath?

 

Olver does not seek to ask Mat. That is the issue. Olver's conception of the world is such that he looks at exchanges of service. He follows Mat now means that Mat must follow him later. It is not the companionable sharing of duty, it is... well, cause and effect. This is Olver's problem--to him human interaction is a sequence of cause and effect. I do this, he does that. I say this thing, they say that. It is a clinical, objective conceptualisation of human interaction. And it is deeply flawed.

 

And, to be clear, what he does is not flawed, its how he does it. Seeking vengence is not flawed. The method with which he seeks to draw Mat's aid is. By a similar note a boy seeking to mimic his elders relationships is not flawed, but a boy with a deductive understanding of sexual interaction including a realistic perception of the advent of puberty is. For Olver, the advent of puberty is not the time he starts looking at girls, thereby understanding the game of husband and wife, it is the proscribed time when the causes are correctly in place for him to start looking at girls, which he already understands as a defined form of social interaction.

 

Cause and effect. The conceptualisation of people and interactions as a process of cause and effect. This is sociopathy.

 

Aside from the psychobabble, I agree with you. Olver displays a level of calculation, foreplanning and drive that I find somewhat hard to believe in a child.

 

When I read it myself, I put it down to Sanderson... put perhaps there is something more to it.

 

Actually, 11 is the age of the development of lateral thinking--which is to say the type of deductive reasoning that Olver utilizes. It fits in a mind incapable of empathy.

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine

 

Love. Love. Love. I was wrong about many things. LOVE! That is all.

You're not fooling anyone, Luckers. I think we all know what you really mean:

Mr Ares

 

Love. Love. Love. I was wrong about many things. LOVE! That is all.

 

Of course, some of the Olver=Sociopath stuff you say could also be about me: "He does not understand the purpose or use of manners". My secret has been rumbled.

 

I'm curious as to what you make of this, with regards to Olver's perceived sociopathy: "...It was Olver's job to take care of him [Mat]. Now that Lopin was gone, Mat would need extra taking care of. It was one of the reasons Olver stayed with the Band. He was not sure what Mat would do without him." To me, it doesn't really give the impression of Olver not caring about Mat, only about himself. He's staying with the Band to look after Mat, not because he needs Mat.

[Demon_AS]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

Trust me, you don't want to know. 

 

 

I wish I didn't, that's for sure.

Haha, come on! I thoroughly enjoyed the Sword of Truth series :). Just ignore the philosophy and enjoy the story - that's what I tend to do. I have thus managed to keep all of my hair whilst reading fantasy.