Discuss The Forsaken

[Kidicaris]

Can Morridin be turn to the light ?

 

From what tidbits we are given, from LTT, the Forsaken, the guide and Ishamael himself, it seems that he turned to the Shadow--not because he evil, but because he believed that the infinite, cyclical nature of the conflict between Light and Shadow (and the soul of LTT) would eventually, inevitably, be won by the Dark One. This logic destroyed Elan Morin Tedronai.

 

It's not like he has ever viewed the other Forsaken as anything but tools in his own quest to break the Wheel of Time. It's nihilistic the way he's decided all life is pointless and any struggle is futile in the face of the Dark One. In this universe RJ has created where the Creator is nowhere to be found, but the Dark One is very powerfully present it kind of makes sense why Ishamael would pick the side he has.

 

It would take some SERIOUS ta'verenfu and tap dancing to redeem Ishamael. Just showing him that the bore would be sealed would not be enough, because he is aware of the cycle of drilling and resealing and he has stated that the Shadow would win in this Age or another. If the Pattern does seek balance, maybe Ishamael is as inevitable as the Dragon, as his counter. Yet, now that I think about it. The Shadow has been trying to convert LTT's soul forever and believes that is the key to ultimate victory. It would kind of make sense that converting Ishamae's soul would be the Light's key to ultimate victory--IF indeed Ishamael is the Shadow's analogue to the Dragon...

 

If WoT was fully BS's work Ishamael would be the present incarnation of a former Dragon, one who had failed or had turned in the past. BS's Mistborn Trilogy was BRILLIANT with its concept of Hero of the Ages.

[didymos]

Although of course RJ has consistently said over the years Taim is not Demandred.

 

What he actually said was, "Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim."

 

There is a semantic difference between that statement and saying, "Demandred is not Mazrim Taim."

 

Whether that difference is significant remains to be seen.

 

 

And he also actually said:

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NYC 7 January 2003 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

RJ: No, that is totally bogus.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

 

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Q: Have we yet seen the alter-ego Demandred presents to the Third-Agers on-screen?

 

A: NO. (I asked twice to make sure.)

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?

RJ: (Disgusted) I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem.

 

 

It's safe to say that semantic difference is of no significance.

[Bob T Dwarf]

ta'veren-fu. Yes, this is good. I shall, of course, steal it and use it shamelessly.

[WolfDragonFox]

I and i'm sure a bunch of others caught on a while ago that I believe Jordan purposely wrote the characters of the Forsaken to be huge letdowns. Its a play on legends not being half as glorious as they are made out to be over time. I think Demandred is actually the most brilliant since he hasn't shown up. I believe he was th ONLY one of these 13 not to get a big head over their own legend. He realized that these kids are just as talented in this age and in many ways more so with all their rediscoveries and also doing things that Channelers in the AoL couldn't case and point, Nynaeve healing stilling and madness.

 

The only ones to look forward to now are the trap Cyndane/Lanfear is setting, what will be Graendal's state be when we see her and what has Demandred been doing and will he too fall into the legend bigger than reality trap or will he be smarter and have an amazing plot in place. I know Taim is not Demandred but I only have two more possible places for him to be...Black Tower controling Taim and putting the Taim Ashaman under compulsion as well as the trapped Aes Sedai, or he is with those Aiel in the Blight who i think are Male Channeler Aiel that went super insane...question is how does he control them?

[Guest RhedSuit]

I am somewhat surprised by all of the Forsaken hate. In my opinion it is not their characters fault but rather the fact that the heroes can and will do anything that will end up being good overall. If there is one issue I have with the plotting of the stories I think it would have to fall to the fact that the 'pattern' makes all of the main goodies pretty much infallible. The Forsaken (I feel) do an excellent job of causing mayhem and strife but all of that fades away when they confront a goodie and then (often times inexplicably) the goodie pulls a deus ex machina out of their ass. Sure, I would still say that some of the forsaken have been miserable but most would've been so much better had the main characters been on an equal playing field.

 

for instance- Semirhage. She was torturing and experimenting on Aes Sedai in cool ways, was attributed to both the Return and the fall of the Seanchan empire (that alone has caused most of the strife in the books) then was all set to do way more damage when posing as The Daughter of The Nine Moons when- SURPRISE- Cadsuane HAPPENS to have a device to cause inverted weaves to reveal themselves and Rand HAPPENS to recognize her. Even then, Semirhage escapes and proceeds to do what should super break Rand forever (while killing Min and gaining him as a tool for the DO) and then Rand happens to channel the TP all up in her face at just the right moment. It is pretty much the same story for every Forsaken.

 

With those kind of Deus Ex Shenanigans I think the Forsaken could hardly be argued to be inept (except for maybe Mesaana, Moghedien, and Aginor) but rather it is the irritating problem that the good guys always miraculously pull through when by all means they should fail in several different ways.

[WolfDragonFox]

I actually just want to clarify if it came off wrong....i don't think the Forsaken were lame in themselves and their actions....quite the contrary they did some movin and shakin in Randland and caused some serious bad. Yeah the good guys are pretty much vaulted to an impervious state throughout the series when confronting the forsaken but my main point was that these 13 channelers WERE the cream of the crop but now there are a handful of new blood channelers that are just stronger and know more things. Basically the point is that the Forsaken just haven't caught up with the times. They see the main channeler of this age (Aes Sedai) for what they are...full of themselves to the point that they care nothing for discovery anymore so its made their growth kind of stale. The main characters male and female don't have that flaw so they develop and surpass. I believe also that coming from a time of luxury and comfort and advance in technology, the Forsaken forget the meaning of hard work and determination. The new age they've come to seems primitive to them but the people in it weren't born into ease, they are hands on and this kind of life makes for a sterner person that is full of potential as opposed to coming from a place where everything is already thought of and been done before (so they thought)

[Bob T Dwarf]

With those kind of Deus Ex Shenanigans I think the Forsaken could hardly be argued to be inept (except for maybe Mesaana, Moghedien, and Aginor) but rather it is the irritating problem that the good guys always miraculously pull through when by all means they should fail in several different ways.

 

You're going to get that in any story. Either the crucial puzzle piece falls into the hero's lap or Sherlock Holmes makes the impossible deduction in the nick-of-time, or...

 

Where Jordan absolutely lost me was with Semirhage's rampage through the Seanchan Imperial Court. If the Bad Guys have that kind of power individually, why is there still any opposition to the Dark? If one, lone Forsaken, and not the most powerful at that, can do that kind of damage, why is there any government left in any nation or power bloc on the planet? Why is there anything like any national entity on the planet? Why is it not chaos and civil war everywhere?

 

Off with their heads! And, then sit back with tea and bon-bons as the rest of the world threshes around helplessly and wait for the seals to finish eroding.

 

It's elementary. And, you don't have to be the brightest bulb on the tree to figure that simple plan out. But not a single one of them do!

 

Granted, there wouldn't be much of a story here if they did, but if your villains are THAT powerful and you fail to allow them to use that power even semi-intelligently, you haven't got much of a story either. Jordan totally devalued the whole series with those few lines where Semirhage destroyed the Seanchan Court.

 

There shouldn't be a White Tower anymore. There shouldn't even still be an island called Tar Valon. Nor any city of any size. Anywhere. Half of them, in a combined attack , as individuals, could have destoryed the whole island of Tar Valon in five minutes. No White Tower. No Aes Sedai. Only scattered isolated enemy channelers. No capitals. No armies. Nothing but tea and bon-bons. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

All thirteen of them have terminal cases of Evil Overlord Brain Lock. They'd rather be dumb and die.

[Tom Sawyer]

That is a good point. Why turn the White Tower against itself? A and B were dead by the time the rest came out of the hole, but they still had 11 of them plus the couple hundred BA and Taim, so why not link up in a super-circle, vaporize the place and then worry about what to do with Rand while he's looking for the Horn? It would seem like a decent step one in any plan.

 

After that, fan the Black Ajah out around the continent. Tell Illian that Tear did with a ter'angreal that can level cities and vice versa and set them against each other. Same for Andor and Cairhien and a bunch of places out west. Turn the whole continent to rubble and then worry about making Rand depressed and angry.

[Xiero]

I think i just found Demondred. Near the end of the Working Leather chapter when the Asha'man are discussing what to do.

"Something is strange about Nensen, (guessing the 13x13) Nalaam repeated. "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he grow so powerful so quickly?" My guess is that this Kash is Demondred in hiding looking over the conversion of the asha'man and Aes Sedai. Either it's Demondred or maybe Aginor/Dashiva got another shot since Elza didn't fry him with Balefire.

[capuga]

I think i just found Demondred. Near the end of the Working Leather chapter when the Asha'man are discussing what to do.

"Something is strange about Nensen, (guessing the 13x13) Nalaam repeated. "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he grow so powerful so quickly?" My guess is that this Kash is Demondred in hiding looking over the conversion of the asha'man and Aes Sedai. Either it's Demondred or maybe Aginor/Dashiva got another shot since Elza didn't fry him with Balefire.

 

My feeling was that this just indicated that Taim was doing some kind of super-training on his dark followers.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I tend to sympathize with the criticism that the Forsaken have become a cavalcade of jokers. Sadly, I think this is RJ's fault rather than any failure on our part to appreciate his work. He spent the first three books pitting Rand (and others) against Ballzy, only to reveal at the last that this was "merely" Ishamael, the greatest of the Forsaken but still only one of thirteen and still a human in some sense. And, though he had died along with Aggy and Balty and Belly by the end of TDR, the threat of Lanfear was still very prominent in our minds, and the remaining eight Forsaken had barely even begun to reveal their schemes to us.

 

Then something happened. RJ couldn't top himself. He couldn't live up to the expectations he had set for us. We are told that the Forsaken have wrought great evil offscreen, both in the Age of Legends and behind the scenes in Randland and Seanchan, but when they appear in person they seem to behave like a gaggle of fools. And, on the rare occasions they demonstrate some competence, there's always a deus ex machina ready to defeat them anyway. I think RJ just didn't know what to do with them, didn't know how to make them a credible evil after Ishamael and Lanfear. He wasn't willing to kill off his major protagonists, and he wasn't willing to demolish the look and feel of Randland. That left the Forsaken with nothing much to do except get killed off cheaply. To make matters worse, RJ compounded his folly by resurrecting several of them, so that they could then get killed off even more cheaply.

 

I don't accept the argument that the Forsaken are merely a bunch of dysfunctional humans who can't possibly live up to their reputations, because that would completely undermine the seriousness with which we are supposed to take them. I can't speak for the man, but I can't imagine that RJ wanted us to laugh at the same people who make the good guys tremble. I think he just didn't know how to effectively write onscreen evil.

 

Well! We can hope that he had some big surprises in store for us come AMoL. I suspect Graendal will be more active than is implied by her looming punishment at the end of ToM. Moridin is obviously going to factor hugely into the conclusion, and I think Cyndane will too. Moggy and Demandred are probably likely to go the way of the other Forsaken of late, dying cheap deaths, and likely Graendal will too.

 

Oh well. Two out of thirteen isn't something to brag about, but I do have to say that Ishydin has been a great villain throughout the series. Lanfear was too, but then got wasted for eight books. I'm hoping she gets a lot more attention in AMoL. Two great villains are better than none, and honestly the gholam and Slayer and SH and even Fain never interested me the way the Forsaken did, because, unlike the Forsaken, these other evils do not have much of a human angle.

 

As for the Forsakens' performance in ToM specifically, I was really surprised that Moggy was not Perrin's enemy. She would have been the most logical antagonist. Wasting Graendal on that was a disappointment. Messy's pathetic state had been growing for books, and I'm not surprised that she met her end here--and I'm glad she did, because getting raped by SH is probably the most depraved and disgusting thing RJ has conceived of in the whole series. Not even the Forsaken deserve that. I knew Aran'gar wouldn't last much longer, but I didn't realize she was already dead. Hah!

 

I also expected Cyndane to be a huge presence in the book, what with BS talking about discussions he'd had with Maria over Cyndane's character, and with Mat returning to Finnland, which is where we last saw Lanfear headed. The fact that she was constrained to a very brief scene in the epilogue is a huge disappointment to me, but it does give me hope that she'll be a more effective presence in the last book, which is what I've always wanted for her.

 

Lastly, like many others, I expected the big Demandred reveal to be in this book. It wasn't, and that really sucks for the Demandred fans, of which thankfully I am not one.

 

When it comes to what the Forsaken will be up to in AMoL, I am not inclined to agree with the speculation that each remaining Forsaken will be pitted against their logical Lightside opponent. We've seen too many examples of RJ (and BS) bucking that expectation over the course of the series. With the possible exception of a Moggy-Nynaeve showdown, I'm not taking bets on who the final Forsaken are pitted against. Even Moridin vs. Rand is in doubt, given that the two are becoming one.

 

And is it too late to say that I wish Asmodean were Taim? =P

[Andrew5268]

So I don't know if anybody else has mentioned this, but I've been of this opinion since day 1 of the series. I think the forsaken are self-evidently supposed to be somewhat pathetic (remember that they only fall to absurdly powerful individuals for the most part, so it's not like they are pushovers). The prologue to Eye of the World really explains all, along with Rands meeting with Moridin in TGS. Rand and Moridin are opposite sides of the same coin - remember, only Ishy is as powerful as Rand - they are the only two to be equals at that level. In tEotW he says it will not be over between us until the end of time. The conflict has always been going to come down to the two of them. They are the representative avatars of the Dark One and the Creator. remember it is said that ishy believed himself to be the dark one when he was going nuts, and see how Rand is already starting to exude 'pure lightside power' if you will in ToM. Also, Rand in ToM is essentially never wrong - he is exuding pure messiah characteristics - he has essentially internalized God. Thus I think that in aMoL tarmon gai'don will be classic armaggedon cosmic battle of the ages - Rand will break the seals, allowing the DO to physically manifest in Moridin, and Creator will physically manifest in Rand. Below is the metaphysical (and narrative) reason for this.

 

Jordan has said that he believes that the greatest gift the greeks gave us was time as a linear concept. In Wot, time is cyclical; thus Rand's nihilism when he almost destroys the world and Moridin's nihilism being the cause of him turning to the shadow (he was the first to turn as well - First of the Fallen). If Rand simply resealed the bore, and another age came, teh same stuff would be happening over again - not satisfying from a narrative standpoint nor from a getting stuff done with some permanence standpoint. So I think the cosmic battle hypo I set up with DO and creator manifesting in their respective champions will allow the battle to be decided once and for all - thus the Great Serpent of infinite time will break, but not break as the DO wants it to - it will break because time will become linear and winning the fight will actually mean something - Rand/creator will be able to actually destroy Moridin/DO.

 

In sum, I believe this is what the series will boil down to in the main - the Forsaken were only their so the DO got some faithful servants who actually thought they would get promoted; but Ishy was, is, always would be nae'blis all along. I think Demandred will be the last gasp of that theme in aMoL when Moridin swats him out of the way with balefire when Demandred tries to kill Rand or something.

 

FYI I still haven't figured out how Padan Fain figures into this framework metaphysically (the third force, a force for pure chaos as opposed to ordered good and ordered evil?) but I think he will end up being super important.

[GusE]

The only way to have made the forsaken "better" would be to have them kill Rand in Tear, Caemlyn or Shadar'logoth etc. That was just not gonna happen in this series, what would be the point? Some complain about Mesaana for example, well she did succeed in splitting the tower and puppeteering the Amyrlin, capturing Rand by remote and setting all Ajahs against one another, not a small feat.

[decrepid dragon]

The only way to have made the forsaken "better" would be to have them kill Rand in Tear, Caemlyn or Shadar'logoth etc. That was just not gonna happen in this series, what would be the point? Some complain about Mesaana for example, well she did succeed in splitting the tower and puppeteering the Amyrlin, capturing Rand by remote and setting all Ajahs against one another, not a small feat.

Yea, the forsaken are ever only good during their scheming and such, not warriors. There was a post several pages back on the fosaken's AoL jobs that was pure win, as they were exciting things like biologists and financial advisors (And womaniser in Rahvins case ). I think one way to look at Rand killing them all except Ishmael is to imagine a One Power fight between Nynave and Egwene, Egwene might be strong , but Nynave will beat her every time in a 1v1 fight, even if a future Egwene somehow came back with an extra 10 years combat experience (Thats how long the war of power went for) either way I get the feeling thats the kind of difference between Rand and the others except Ishmael and Lanfear. So theres not really any deus ex machima goings on here, except for Cadsuane revealing Semhirage (even then its not that surprising one of the oldest and most famous AS has a paralis net, and one of its many widgets includes something that disrupts nearby mirror of mists, while LTT could name ALL the forsaken by sight), and of course Egwene *facepalm*. Their politicking did keep things stirred up for a long time.

 

And I feel that Randland couldn't be destroyed too much for TG, otherwise it wouldn't be able to resist an invasion of 1,000,000+ trollocs without having the WT/BT break out a 1000 to 1 kill ratio, which would just make us all go "Huh. Why the hell didn't the WT go and kill every single trolloc in the Blight centuries ago?" Or we would feel that the Dark One's servants were all useless, and he only has Shaidar Harran and Moridin along with Slayer to rely on, which would make it almost like HE was the mighty hero with trusted companions trying to survive against overwhelming numbers, not the other way around.

 

Which makes me realise that without a doubt the most successful character in the entire series, excluding the Creator and Dark One themselves, is Aginor, a forsaken. He created the Shadowspawn that stopped the Dark One being pretty much forgotten, without him the DO wouldn't even have a Last Battle, just a big night of betrayal when about one in every 10 people that were dark friends tried to kill the others, before they were all knocked off in short order and the DO was left alone to face Rand in whatever form things pan out. The apparent 13+13 tricking that is happening at the BT would be impossible. Maybe even the blight itself would be useless, as there would be no creatures to inhabit it. The gholam (plural) would never have ripped their way through the channelers of light in both the AoL and in Ebou Dar. So maybe even the Dark One itself hasn't made as many gains for the shadow as Aginor, as long as we ignore other ages and the general fact that the Dark One was the driving force behind the war in the first place, it didn't do too much personally. Aginor can be forgiven for sucking in combat, as Albert Einstein probably wouldn't have kicked too much ass either.

 

I know it could be said that without shadowspawn that more people may have become darkfriends, at least in the borderlands, without a concrete enemy to fight, but I don't think half the world would naively turn to the shadow, as in this age everyone knows about prophesies of Dragon, LTT, the fall of the AoL, ect. Also without a concrete enemy to fight and direct the world to fight against Rand might have been able to not only spend more time fortifying himself against betrayal by darkfriends but also soul searching and might have reached his 'enlightened state' earlier, either of which is still disadvantageous for the Dark One. Especially since Light-Rand can see all darkfriends just by looking at them, so the night of betrayal would have turned into Rand hunting down the only followers the DO had and smushing them. I admit Aginors' death at the hands of another darkfriend was slightly anti-climactic, but the DO owes this guy enough to keep reviving him forever .

 

Who said the forsaken were useless?

 

On a side note it annoys me that Nynave was said to be so strong, perhaps the strongest person since the breaking, she even equalled the weakest of the forsaken, and randoms just start to pop up that suddenly have more potential, Alivia, that old woman novice that was with the rebels, that sea folk apprentice that beat her in training all the time (That ticked me off soooo much), ect. She should go the way of Semhirage and show them all the true meaning of pain just for being better. Liked her character so much in ToM, I was reminded how cool she could be when she wasn't being irritating. Meh, I geuss she is turning out to be the greatest healer this turning of the wheel has ever seen, so I guess its alright. I can practically see her leading a full circle with a sa'angreal at the Last Battle, before the callandor show down, healing hundreds of wounded so they can just get back up and fight again.

[GusE]

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales – an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

[decrepid dragon]

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales – an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

Just found that list. Interesting reading, didn't realise that Nynaeve was stronger than some of the forsaken. And its always good to see Lanfears name above everyone elses

 

Forsaken FTW! Well, some of them anyway

[Lironah]

I don't think the Forsaken should be taken lightly, either as far as their ability or the evil they've perpetrated. First of all, most of what they do really is behind the scenes - take a really good look at all the nations which have fallen in to chaos since the story began. I think it's laughable to assume that so much orchestrated chaos was caused simply by one man's existence. These things were caused by the Forsaken working through their networks of darkfriends and Black Ajah, using messages passed down through the ranks like the fingers of a river delta. Nearly every evil perpetrated in the books was ordered or at least encouraged by one of them. Not only that, but they were extremely good at it, picking up within weeks of their release the reins of a network which had largely been without oversight for three thousand years.

 

Why then do they seem weak or laughable to us as readers? Well first of all, there's the perspective thing. We are given the unique benefit of seeing into their heads, and we can see exactly how selfish and petty they are. It's really hard to respect or fear someone you've seen in full haughty mode (see Elayne), making mistakes just like everyone else does. The problem isn't that the Forsaken are fallible; it's that the whole rest of the world thinks they are. Lews Therin knows better - he knew them as people; as more than just some mythical evil - and he's not afraid of them any more. He still holds a healthy respect for their capabilities, though, and so should we.

 

The other problem (readers have) is that the Forsaken do seem to go down like swatted flies in some books. Three in book one, two in book three, four in book four, some of them without delivering more than a dozen lines of dialogue. A lot of people can't keep Aginor and Balthamel straight. Even though each one represented an extreme effort or a personal sacrifice on the part of one of the good guys, it feels cheap when they go down like dominoes. If it's not because the Forsaken are really weak, then why is it?

 

I'm going to wager that in most cases, the cause of the Forsaken's downfall is their overconfidence. Think back to the Age of Legends for a moment. From everything we hear, the Shadow had the Light on the ropes; entire kingdoms held by them, even some who were thought to serve the Light had been secretly turned or corrupted. I'm willing to bet that the Forsaken - as the thirteen most powerful - didn't do much themselves by the time Lews Therin managed to seal them in the Bore. They were likely enjoying the spoils and comforts of their positions, having subdued powerful enemies as well as powerful allies to do their dirty work for them. By that time, they honestly didn't think that anyone could best them, because for so long nobody had been able to.

 

Fast forward to Randland as we know it. Suddenly their networks, their strongholds and their collections of ter'angreal are gone. They're thrown into a world with none of the comforts of their previous lives, having to do everything with the One Power. Even showing off what they can do with the Power must feel like a loss to them - a modern man showing off his pocket watch to a caveman. Is the astronaut justified in feeling superior to men whose greatest accomplishment is making fire? Perhaps. But herein lies the Forsaken's greatest blind spot. Just because that caveman can't operate a firearm doesn't mean his spear isn't deadly. Neither, however, is the astronaut likely to be trained in spear fighting - despite all of his training and education, it just wasn't on the list.

 

When it comes right down to it, the Forsaken just don't think like Third Agers. They don't understand the way the people of the current age think, and so they belittle them and call them primitive, because to do otherwise would damage their reputation as invulnerable gods of destruction. But if you don't understand the way a man thinks, there's no way to predict what he's going to do next. Moghedien falls for Nynaeve's weakness act, Ishamael gets himself stabbed because Rand leaves himself open, and two Forsaken fall to the relatively weak Moiraine because they expect her to retreat in the face of a stronger foe.

 

The Third Age has tempered its residents to live with the harsh circumstances they were raised with, whereas the Forsaken - without exception - grew up in an idyllic world where enlightened thought was the norm rather than physical labor. You could say they're spoiled; in fact, I will say it. They're used to the tools and weapons of their own Age, and aren't accustomed to fighting without them. Even Lews Therin was not an exception. So when it comes right down to it, it takes a lot more strength of mind, will, and character to survive in the Third Age than it did even during the War of Shadow. Thus Mesaana fell, and Lanfear, and Ishamael himself, not once but three times. The cream of the Age of Legends must face unarmed the rising legends of the Third Age.

 

Perhaps if the defeated Forsaken had tried to understand their foes instead of considering them inferior, it would have been different. Still, it must be understood that no mortal man or woman can truly live up to a three-thousand year old reputation. The reality couldn't be anything but disappointing when compared to that. And who knows? Demandred has yet to make a showing. Moridin, having been only half-trapped for so long, understands the world more than any of them. The Last Battle approaches, and I think the Dark One has saved his trump cards for last.

[Demon_AS]

The thing that bothers me is that the Big Guy is

 

a. An Eldritch Abomination of All Evil

b. A God

c. Incorporeal

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

Removing that girl-stealing, glory-stealing, arrogant son-of-a-rhymes-with-witch from existence.

 

Frankly, I can't think of anyone better to be the Sword and Shield of the Shadow when it comes to putting up dukes.

 

Edit:

 

And from a fan service perspective, there is literally nothing out there that has taken up as much time, created as much speculation, and divided the Fandom as stridently as "who in the bloody flaming hell is Demandred?"

Firstly, kudos for the David Eddings reference. Nice to see another fan!

 

I expect it'll be Rand Therin Sedai vs. Demandred on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, immediately before his fight with the DO. Assuming it's going to be any sort of fight at all - confrontation would be a better word

[decrepid dragon]

The thing that bothers me is that the Big Guy is

 

a. An Eldritch Abomination of All Evil

b. A God

c. Incorporeal

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

Removing that girl-stealing, glory-stealing, arrogant son-of-a-rhymes-with-witch from existence.

 

Frankly, I can't think of anyone better to be the Sword and Shield of the Shadow when it comes to putting up dukes.

 

Edit:

 

And from a fan service perspective, there is literally nothing out there that has taken up as much time, created as much speculation, and divided the Fandom as stridently as "who in the bloody flaming hell is Demandred?"

Firstly, kudos for the David Eddings reference. Nice to see another fan!

 

I expect it'll be Rand Therin Sedai vs. Demandred on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, immediately before his fight with the DO. Assuming it's going to be any sort of fight at all - confrontation would be a better word

 

David Eddings did have a great thing going with the prophesies, actually the first thing I thought of when I Moridin showed Graendel the dark prophecy. I liked the suggestion that the DO was an incorporeal force of destruction that still had a will and basic self awareness and would 'imprint' itself on Moridin. So he would be in the confrontation with Rand that would decide the fate of the world, while just before that Damandred has had his big reveal moment and tried to take out his jealous vengence on LTT. I really am hoping that Damandred will have the biggest reveal, I know BS has said he is the largest player for the shadow, I just hope I don't overhype myself into thinking it will be bigger than it will be.

[Jeangray]

Nearly every evil perpetrated in the books was ordered or at least encouraged by one of them. Not only that, but they were extremely good at it, picking up within weeks of their release the reins of a network which had largely been without oversight for three thousand years.

 

All of this is true. The problem is that all of their plans we see on-screen are almost without exception extremely lame. It is not even so much an issue that they are don't manage to kill any main or even secondary characters due to institutional deus ex machina, but that their plans would have been vetoed by an average 5 year-old.

 

Lews Therin knows better - he knew them as people; as more than just some mythical evil - and he's not afraid of them any more. He still holds a healthy respect for their capabilities, though, and so should we.

 

LTT had reason to respect them - he didn't manage to kill them in the War of the Power and by the end they were winning. But after their performance against the 3rd-Agers this only shows that LTT must have been comparably lame :).

 

They were likely enjoying the spoils and comforts of their positions, having subdued powerful enemies as well as powerful allies to do their dirty work for them.

 

This is the crux of the matter of their unbelievable and implausible ineptness in the 3rd Age. In AoL they had other channelers working for them and carrying out the majority of their dirty work. But in the 3rd Age they are suddenly terrified of employing the BAs et al. in the same way and training them up enough to be useful? Really? Even after Rand has substantial numbers of channelers working for him, not to mention owns powerful sa'angreal, the FS try to stand up to him on their lonesome?! This makes zero sense and goes a long way towards making the FS laughable.

 

their collections of ter'angreal are gone.

 

Except that for a year or so there were rich collections of ter'angreal there for the taking. Yet even the FS who were literally sitting on top of them (Bel'al, Mesaana, Lanfear) made no use of them.

 

it takes a lot more strength of mind, will, and character to survive in the Third Age than it did even during the War of Shadow.

 

IMHO this is not very believable, not for those actively participating in a war. IRL it doesn't take long for people from idyllic backgrounds to toughen up during bloody wars - if they survive the baptism by fire, that is.

 

Thus Mesaana fell, and Lanfear, and Ishamael himself, not once but three times. The cream of the Age of Legends must face unarmed the rising legends of the Third Age.

 

It doesn't help, of course, that the author completely rigs the match by making channeling a science to AoLers, but something like divine inspiration to the third Agers, heh.

[unJon]

I'm thinking Demandred is Yoeli and that Yoeli death was falsely reported. When Rand showed up, it destroyed Yoeli's plans to totally destroy Rodel's army, but escape with Rodel, winning his way into a trusted general for the side of Light. So he faked his death and beat it out of dodge.

 

Yoeli's physical description is similar to Demandred's.

 

Yoeli is totally shady: he kept Rodel in Maradon at least twice when Rodel would have fled. Once even faking the fires from his "sister" that meant help was on the way. There was no help on the way. Rand came in through a gateway, and no one on the hill lit a fire for that.

 

Yoeli got off the wall at exactly the last minute before the dreadlord male channelers blew it up. He knew.

[Demon_AS]

Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales – an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

Just found that list. Interesting reading, didn't realise that Nynaeve was stronger than some of the forsaken. And its always good to see Lanfears name above everyone elses

 

Forsaken FTW! Well, some of them anyway

Any chance of a link? I had a little look for that list and could not find it :(.

[Kidicaris]

The only way to have made the forsaken "better" would be to have them kill Rand in Tear, Caemlyn or Shadar'logoth etc. That was just not gonna happen in this series, what would be the point? Some complain about Mesaana for example, well she did succeed in splitting the tower and puppeteering the Amyrlin, capturing Rand by remote and setting all Ajahs against one another, not a small feat.

 

There are many more heroes to kill or wound than Rand. I my main problem with them is that RJ set a high bar with our expectations for them. They were after all among the strongest channelers of their Age, each with a long list of heinous crimes. However when we finally get to know them they failed to live up to even children's tales.

It becomes apparent that they were caricatures, or some kind of epitome of a vice. Almost none of them were complicated, or even had an interesting personality. George R.R. Martin has written some incredibly complicated villains that you even learn are not villains at all. But I digress, RJ created a polar world, it's just too bad the Shadow is led by a group of disappointing people. Hell, I think I've felt more anxious about our heroes getting into trouble with the BA than I have the Forsaken >.> and the BA are little more than cannon fodder. In fact I won't ever fully feel comfortable as long as Liandrin is still alive...

[Tiinker]

The Forsaken are getting wiped out too easy. The only great battles between Hero and Villain so far for me was against Asmodean and Rahvin. Mesaana definately got taken too easy, I barely even understood what happened there..

[Elan Tedronai]

The Forsaken are getting wiped out too easy. The only great battles between Hero and Villain so far for me was against Asmodean and Rahvin. Mesaana definately got taken too easy, I barely even understood what happened there..

 

 

i think emu on the loose described it best. Robert jordan could not top himself. He painted the forsaken as big bad ass villains who wreaked such havoc in the age of legends, a time when there was thousands of powerful channellers and then he completely flopped.

 

The only forsaken worth his salt was Rahvin. The rest including the much vaunted Ishamael/Moridin were completely useless. People should stop making excuses for the forsaken failures and simply should admit that RJ could not do justice to his own description of the forsaken