Elayne's Arc

[Kaznen]

 

Well she doesnt know that mat is a military master mind. And I can see how she could forget mat sounded the horn of valere, I forgot, and it hasnt been two years since I learnt of that.

 

Guy commands one of the mightiest, largest and most effective military forces in the Randlands and, she doesn't know he's a military mastermind? How the hell does she think that Mat came to command the Band of the Red Hand then? By tossing the dice?

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Mat has got to be far more than merely "lucky" to command such a military force so effectively.

And her warder even said a couple of times how good he is. But her, Egwene, and Nyn did think he was in command of the Band because Rand "assigned" him to it.

[f3llyn]

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier but what really burned me about Elayne was during a reread of her interrogating the BA prisoner and she said was surprised the shadow was so "hell bent" on killing Mat.

 

She was like, "Sure he is a close friend of Rand, Ta'veren, a military master mind, commander of the largest single group of soldiers currently in Andor (I do think there is more Band of the Red Hand then Queens Guards, not a lot more but more), Hero of Cairehien and the Aiel, and sounder of the Horn of Valor (she knows it was him) but why would the shadow think he is a threat.

 

She is one of the few AS who hasn't figured out Mat and Perrin are vital to Rand's success.

 

lol...right!

 

This on Mat and her thoughts on Perrin (IIRC, she even wanted him dead for "rebelling" against Andor's rule) have got to be some of the stupidest things this extremely stupid character has ever thought.

 

She wants to kill the "Wolf King", who is a Ta'veren vital to the Dragon Reborn's chances, who appears in many a prophecy, including those of the Shadow, while I've yet to find mention of the ruler of the Lion Throne having any importance at Tarmon Gai'don, thus stating the guy's importance. On whose side is she on? The Shadow's?

 

I've always thought that nobles in the Randland were all supposed to study the Karaethon Cycle, not to mention Aes Sedai. And Elayne's supposed to be both. But her level of ignorance concerning Ta'veren and the importance of both, Mat and Perrin, to the chances of the Light is, frankly, mind-boggling.

 

No wonder Caemlyn was targeted by the Shadow and is in such serious danger of falling. They have a complete and utter idiot for a ruler.

 

Well she doesnt know that mat is a military master mind. And I can see how she could forget mat sounded the horn of valere, I forgot, and it hasnt been two years since I learnt of that.

 

Guy commands one of the mightiest, largest and most effective military forces in the Randlands and, she doesn't know he's a military mastermind? How the hell does she think that Mat came to command the Band of the Red Hand then? By tossing the dice?

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Mat has got to be far more than merely "lucky" to command such a military force so effectively.

Well Elaida had a foretelling that the Andor and/or the Lion Throne would be vital to a victory at TG. But that was before we learned Rands true origins so I'm pretty sure that foretelling was about him and she just misinterpreted it.

[Darth Krewl]

Well Elaida had a foretelling that the Andor and/or the Lion Throne would be vital to a victory at TG. But that was before we learned Rands true origins so I'm pretty sure that foretelling was about him and she just misinterpreted it.

 

Sorry, but that's not good enough. 'cause, as you've wisely observed, Rand does hail from Andorian royal blood from his mother's side and there's also his children to consider. This could even refer to Morgase providing her daughter with good advise (for a change lol!) or to Gawyn and/or Galad doing something heroic in the Last Battle. This Elaida foretell is just to vague to be directly related to Elayne. It could mean to tons of things.

 

But even if it was about Elayne, it still doesn't justify the girl not doing her homework and respecting Mat and Perrin for their importance as Ta'veren and as a very important part of the prophecies. Because, unlike Elaida's foretell, the Karaethon Cycle does make clear references to Mat and Perrin, both (the Wolf King, the Fox who shall marry the Raven, etc.)

 

So, whether she likes them personally or not, she should be mindful enough of this fact to show them with the respect they deserve at least, and certainly not try to disarm Mat, much less think of killing Perrin. She should be willing to work with both, instead of trying to hinder them.

[Kaznen]

But the thing with the Lion Throne wasn't in the prophecies. Perrin and Mat are mentioned, a couple of times, in the prophecies. Not by name except the Wolf King and Fox part but they imply the DR will have two very close companions in the "Left hand falters and the right hand strays" line.

 

Plus almost everyone, including most AS, except that in Rand's absence Mat and Perrin speak for him by proxy. Elayne is one of the few who hasn't figured that out.

[Darth Krewl]

And her warder even said a couple of times how good he is. But her, Egwene, and Nyn did think he was in command of the Band because Rand "assigned" him to it.

 

Exactly.

 

And even if Rand had put Mat in charge of the Band, as the airheads...er...the supergirls believe, the guy's got to be a good military commander, not only to keep his charges intact, but to see them grow into the formidable military force that the Band's become under his command.

 

Not making excuses for Mat, though, since his lack of seriousness and responsibility hinders him in the eyes of those used to seeing solemn, dead serious men such as Gareth Bryne, Bashere or Ituralde as the great captains. But still, the fact that Birgitte observed that he's good (in addition to lucky) should be enough for Elayne to show him with a little more respect.

[Kaznen]

When he is "General Cauthorn" he becomes as "dead serious" as the others. Because he knows if he is not "dead serious" he will end up just plain dead and a lot of others will follow him. But they never see "General Cauthorn," or when they do they ignore it.

[Darth Krewl]

When he is "General Cauthorn" he becomes as "dead serious" as the others. Because he knows if he is not "dead serious" he will end up just plain dead and a lot of others will follow him. But they never see "General Cauthorn," or when they do they ignore it.

 

Granted. But we don't see that grim seriousness in the letter he sent Elayne, now do we? And, for as much as I "laffed" when I read his letter and it certainly did catch Elayne's attention, that was certainly not the best way to approach her as the general of a mighty army, such as the Band. That's just Mat being Mat, not General Cauthon.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot his attire. I understand how Mat feels about those pompous nobles and aristocrats and I totally relate to him. But the rags he was wearing when he went to see Elayne make it all but impossible for a queen to take him as seriously as you'd like. Bryne, Ituralde or Bashere would've never done something like that.

 

That's what I meant to say when I said that Mat's not seen under the same light of grim, dead seriousness. Not on the battlefield but on the way he goes about himself on a regular basis. It doesn't help him much in the sense of inspiring respect on snotty nobles, such as Elayne "Bloody" Trakand, as he'd call her himself...hehe

[David Selig]

Also, she never even thanked him for taking her mother in. Yes he did it unintentionally, but he still took care of her and rescued her from the Aiel.

Actually she thanked him. That was supposed to be the point of the meeting and it happened in public.

 

BTW, all those claims that Elayne wanted to execute Perrin are getting tiresome and are plain wrong.

 

TOM, Chapter 45

 

The easiest way to deal with it would be to find him and execute him, but of course she wasn't going to do that.

 

As for the knowledge of Karaethon prophesies, IIRC very few people know much of them, even among the Aes Sedai. Most know only a few bits, like the part about taking over the Stone and wielding Callandor. I don't think Perrin is ever mentioned in the Cycle anyway, except maybe that bit about left hand and right hand from CoT, which is debatable. Neither does Elayne know that he's a Wolf King or whatever his title is the Shadow prophesies, which aren't known to her either. But yeah, let's forget that and blame her, never mind that she didn't intend to execute Perrin anyway.

 

Guy commands one of the mightiest, largest and most effective military forces in the Randlands and, she doesn't know he's a military mastermind? How the hell does she think that Mat came to command the Band of the Red Hand then? By tossing the dice?

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Mat has got to be far more than merely "lucky" to command such a military force so effectively.

Well, since Elayne doesn't know about the memories given to Mat by the Finns, being lucky, picking good subordinates and using his friendship with Rand to get the command seems the far more logical option from her point of view than him being a military genius. Mat's 20, with no military training whatsoever, nobody has ever taught him tactics and strategy and he does his best to give the impression that the only things he cares about are drinking, gambling and flirting. I'd be highly sceptical too to think of him as a military genius, unless I happen to see his tactical genius first hand.

[Asha’man Hall]

I don't like elayne in TOM, although i have liked her in every other book. she has used mat and the band, used perrins idea of being lord of the two rivers into a part of andor again by making it rands part of andor

[Darth Krewl]

Well, since Elayne doesn't know about the memories given to Mat by the Finns, being lucky, picking good subordinates and using his friendship with Rand to get the command seems the far more logical option from her point of view than him being a military genius. Mat's 20, with no military training whatsoever, nobody has ever taught him tactics and strategy and he does his best to give the impression that the only things he cares about are drinking, gambling and flirting. I'd be highly sceptical too to think of him as a military genius, unless I happen to see his tactical genius first hand.

 

So, according to you, David, one would have to know about Mat's supernatural memories to recognize his skills as a military mastermind? Surely, there's no other way to know that the guy's proven himself worthy of leading one of the most powerful armies in his world, other than to know him inside & out.

 

So, I guess Elayne must be the ONLY ruler in the history of fantasy NOT to have a good spy network, eyes & ears as they call 'em in-universe, to keep up with the armies that are stepping on Andorian soil and the exploits of their leaders. Of course, makes perfect sense and it's brilliant of her. Moreover, she couldn't ask around about Mat's brilliant strategic planning to defeat the Shaido in Cairhien; especially now that she's about to take possession of that throne. I for one, would like to get well acquainted with any place that I'm about to rule. So, I'd make certain that I know its recent history, at least.

 

Oh, and let's not forget the manner in which Elayne disregards the advise and counsel of, well, her advisers and councilors, such as Birgitte, whose knowledge and expertise on warfare I'd certainly value, given her vast experience in the subject, of course. I'm assuming here that the girl will at least know that Birgitte is no 20 yr. old with no previous experience on such matters.

 

But, let's just prove how brilliant Elayne Trakand is...

 

Under Morgase, Andor presented some political unrest in TEotW. But that was 'cause of the commotion created by Logain's presence and Morgase kept the reins of her realm firmly in her hands, till she was Compelled by Rhavin. Could happen to anyone, so no fault there.

 

Enter Rand...

 

He kicks Rhavin's arse and regains Andor for the Light. He reestablishes order and stability and leaves the place ready for Elayne to take over.

 

Enter Elayne...

 

Her pride leads her to refuse taking the Lion Throne from the silver platter in which Rand offered it to her, preferring to split her country apart through civil war that leads to chaos and famine...just what the Dark One wants. She certainly wants no Aiel presence, because they are foreign warriors in Andorian soil. Never mind that their loyalty to Rand would make them loyal to her as few would be. Nah! That doesn't work. Why don't we hire sellswords to form part of the Queensguard, instead? Never mind that those guys aren't loyal to anything or anyone but...coin...real smart move by Her Grace!

 

And after her brilliant ideas have weakened her realm, making it the ideal target for an enemy invasion, she weakens it further by concentrating on taking over Cairhien, completely overlooking the Black Sister's warning that the invasion was coming. And guess what? The invasion DID come.

 

The Shadow did not invade Tear, Illien or Caihrien. They invaded Caemlyn. And why?

 

Because those places are well-guarded, under the Dragon's Banner. Not only did Elayne refuse to have such protection in the darkest times in the history of her world, but she weakened her country further through civil war and leaving to stake her claim to the Sun Throne. Hence, Andor's ruler is such a bumbling idiot and every single move she made was so stupid that the realm became the ideal target.

 

Come think of it, you're right, David. Thinking that this amazingly idiotic girl could have known who General Matrim Cauthon is, would be asking and expecting way, way too much of her. My bad!

[David Selig]

Of course Elayne knows he's a good general by now (after she returned to Caemlyn and had at her disposal all the information from her spies and advisors). But she doesn't know he's a military genius, because what the Band achieved in Cairhien, while impressive, was only a few battles and I don't think it's made widely known that Mat made the plan for the battle against the Shaido. The news from his campaign against the Seanchan in KOD probably still haven't reached Caemlyn by the that point (when she interrogated the BA).

 

Oh, and let's not forget the manner in which Elayne disregards the advise and counsel of, well, her advisers and councilors, such as Birgitte, whose knowledge and expertise on warfare I'd certainly value, given her vast experience in the subject, of course. I'm assuming here that the girl will at least know that Birgitte is no 20 yr. old with no previous experience on such matters.

When did that happen? I don't remember anything like that at all. A quote would be nice.

 

Her pride leads her to refuse taking the Lion Throne from the silver platter in which Rand offered it to her, preferring to split her country apart through civil war that leads to chaos and famine...just what the Dark One wants.

The country was already on the brink of civil war before she arrived. The Andoran High Nobles were gathering armies left, right and centre and they declared straight out to Rand they only tolerated him for a time until Elayne and the succession gets resolved between them without his interference. It was made clear numerous times in the books that all of those nobles and their retainers will rise against Rand's forces and Elayne, if she accept his Aiel forces as help. Yes, I don't get why they behaved that way, since they didn't have much chance to beat the Rand's Aiel, and should've postponed all that until the Last Battle, but that's the way Jordan wrote it and who am I to argue with him.

 

Even if the Aiel forces would've won, this would mean an awful lot of casualties for the Light side and a country which would've been really reluctant to help in any way in the Last Battle. Much better to leave the Andorans to settle the Succession between them, with way less casualties, and then whoever succeeds, will have an united country behind her and the power to really prepare the country for the Last Battle.

 

And after her brilliant ideas have weakened her realm, making it the ideal target for an enemy invasion, she weakens it further by concentrating on taking over Cairhien, completely overlooking the Black Sister's warning that the invasion was coming.

Right...

Of course, by taking over Cairhien peacefully, the armies Elayne could call upon, increased significantly overnight, but who cares about such details. I'd love to hear an explanation how this weakens Andor.

 

The Shadow did not invade Tear, Illien or Caihrien. They invaded Caemlyn. And why?

How do you know that? There's a good chance the Shadow attacked elsewhere too. Or at least will do very soon.

 

Because those places are well-guarded, under the Dragon's Banner.

Except that most of their armies are also at Merrirol, just like Andor's.

 

Not only did Elayne refuse to have such protection in the darkest times in the history of her world, but she weakened her country further through civil war and leaving to stake her claim to the Sun Throne.

I don't think the country was weakened. Before the civil war Andor's forces were split in many factions all around the country. The fighting during the civil war was a siege, with minimum casualties, the city had enough food throughout. After that Elayne had the support of nearly all the nobles and most ready to fight Andoran men are mobilised, prepared for war and gathered in or around Caemlyn.

 

BTW, the Aiel army and Bashere's forces stayed near Caemlyn at the beginning of the Andoran civil war and weren't sent away by Elayne, just told not to get involved, which Rand approved of. So saying she refused having them as protection from the Shadow forces is wrong. If it was up to her, they would still be there as allies.

[Darth Krewl]

Of course Elayne knows he's a good general by now (after she returned to Caemlyn and had at her disposal all the information from her spies and advisors). But she doesn't know he's a military genius, because what the Band achieved in Cairhien, while impressive, was only a few battles and I don't think it's made widely known that Mat made the plan for the battle against the Shaido. The news from his campaign against the Seanchan in KOD probably still haven't reached Caemlyn by the that point (when she interrogated the BA).

 

Okay, so she does see him as a good general by now, based on intel provided to her by her spies. Good. That's all I've been arguing. Whether she sees him as a military genius or not, is irrelevant to my argument. And, I'll even go farther by saying that it'd be difficult for her (or anyone else, for that matter) to respect Mat, when he's the first not to take himself seriously, as his letter to Elayne and garb when meeting with her would attest to.

 

I said that, unless Mat adopts a serious, grim attitude, such as a Bryne, Ituralde or Bashere, no one's gonna take him seriously as a top notch military commander...genius or otherwise. Seems to me that either you missed the post where I wrote that or conveniently decided to overlook it. But, it's here, just read a few posts above and you'll find it.

 

When did that happen? I don't remember anything like that at all. A quote would be nice.

 

Yeah, a quote would be nice, I know. Alas, you're not providing any quotes yourself but rather, your comments strike me as something based on personal opinion, more than on exact passages from the book. So, I'm playing under the same rules as you, because they apply both ways. And in this case, needless to say, there's plenty of examples in the WoT books, where Elayne has decided to completely overlook Birgitte's advise on, well, basically everything.

 

So, you'll have to excuse me for not providing a direct quote concerning Birgitte's opinion about Mat as a military man (and Elayne's skepticism about this issue), but it's there, alright. You can rest assured that making up stuff about the WoT books is not something I'm very interested in doing.

 

The country was already on the brink of civil war before she arrived. The Andoran High Nobles were gathering armies left, right and centre and they declared straight out to Rand they only tolerated him for a time until Elayne and the succession gets resolved between them without his interference. It was made clear numerous times in the books that all of those nobles and their retainers will rise against Rand's forces and Elayne, if she accept his Aiel forces as help. Yes, I don't get why they behaved that way, since they didn't have much chance to beat the Rand's Aiel, and should've postponed all that until the Last Battle, but that's the way Jordan wrote it and who am I to argue with him.

 

Yes, I do remember Rand feeling urgency over turning over the Lion Throne to Elayne...precisely to bring civil unrest that could lead to war down the road under control. Perhaps a major plot hole by Jordan. Alas, you're right, who are we to argue with him. I just happen to like his stuff, regardless of its flaws, but I'm not blind to them nor do I have to like everything in his story, just to enjoy it. And Elayne's subplot to take the throne is something that many, many readers haven't liked one bit. And I'm not the exception in this case.

 

Even if the Aiel forces would've won, this would mean an awful lot of casualties for the Light side and a country which would've been really reluctant to help in any way in the Last Battle. Much better to leave the Andorans to settle the Succession between them, with way less casualties, and then whoever succeeds, will have an united country behind her and the power to really prepare the country for the Last Battle.

 

With all due respect, this does strike me as totally based on your personal interpretation and you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean that I have to agree, though. What I do agree on is that Andor seemed headed for civil war, either way. But that doesn't change the fact that Elayne has been a total klutz concerning Mat and Perrin, which was the point I was arguing in the first place. In fact, all it means is that the girl's been unknowingly doing the Dark One's work. Even to the point of wishing Perrin death. Not very smart from her part, I would think.

 

Right...

Of course, by taking over Cairhien peacefully, the armies Elayne could call upon, increased significantly overnight, but who cares about such details. I'd love to hear an explanation how this weakens Andor.

 

Are those armies in Andor, right now? Fighting the scores of Trollocs who invaded its capital in the epilogue?

 

Didn't think so.

 

How do you know that? There's a good chance the Shadow attacked elsewhere too. Or at least will do very soon.

 

Again, "there's a good chance" sounds too much to me as personal interpretation and certainly not as a quote direct from the books. So, while I may agree with your assessment, until you've decided to play by the rules, I have nothing more to add here. But still, how do you know that the Shadow's attacked elsewhere or will do very soon?

 

Except that most of their armies are also at Merrirol, just like Andor's.

 

Which is exactly the reason why, if I'm the Shadow, I would pounce on my enemies' strongholds ASAP. So, yes, I do agree that other cities are already under attack or will be very soon. Doesn't mean that Elayne hasn't weakened Andor since her civil war and that, officially, all we know right now is that Caemlyn is under attack, leading me to believe that it was this child-queen's fault.

 

I don't think the country was weakened. Before the civil war Andor's forces were split in many factions all around the country. The fighting during the civil war was a siege, with minimum casualties, the city had enough food throughout. After that Elayne had the support of nearly all the nobles and most ready to fight Andoran men are mobilised, prepared for war and gathered in or around Caemlyn.

 

"You don't think". That's valid. Not a quote from the books, yet again, but valid. I just happen to think the opposite for the reasons I've already stated: Caemlyn was weak after Elayne left. Otherwise, the Shadow wouldn't have targeted it. This is of course, my take on the invasion of Caemlyn and nothing out of the books per se, so feel free to agree/disagree.

 

BTW, the Aiel army and Bashere's forces stayed near Caemlyn at the beginning of the Andoran civil war and weren't sent away by Elayne, just told not to get involved, which Rand approved of. So saying she refused having them as protection from the Shadow forces is wrong. If it was up to her, they would still be there as allies.

 

Agreed. Elayne didn't send anyone away. This is why Mat had to "stand in line" to get her attention, of course. As for her wanting them as allies, again, is there a quote on this? Or, is it just your personal take on it? Very important that we establish the rules for this debate, should you want it to continue, of course.

[f3llyn]

So, according to you, David, one would have to know about Mat's supernatural memories to recognize his skills as a military mastermind? Surely, there's no other way to know that the guy's proven himself worthy of leading one of the most powerful armies in his world, other than to know him inside & out.

 

So, I guess Elayne must be the ONLY ruler in the history of fantasy NOT to have a good spy network, eyes & ears as they call 'em in-universe, to keep up with the armies that are stepping on Andorian soil and the exploits of their leaders. Of course, makes perfect sense and it's brilliant of her. Moreover, she couldn't ask around about Mat's brilliant strategic planning to defeat the Shaido in Cairhien; especially now that she's about to take possession of that throne. I for one, would like to get well acquainted with any place that I'm about to rule. So, I'd make certain that I know its recent history, at least.

 

Oh, and let's not forget the manner in which Elayne disregards the advise and counsel of, well, her advisers and councilors, such as Birgitte, whose knowledge and expertise on warfare I'd certainly value, given her vast experience in the subject, of course. I'm assuming here that the girl will at least know that Birgitte is no 20 yr. old with no previous experience on such matters.

 

But, let's just prove how brilliant Elayne Trakand is...

 

Under Morgase, Andor presented some political unrest in TEotW. But that was 'cause of the commotion created by Logain's presence and Morgase kept the reins of her realm firmly in her hands, till she was Compelled by Rhavin. Could happen to anyone, so no fault there.

 

Enter Rand...

 

He kicks Rhavin's arse and regains Andor for the Light. He reestablishes order and stability and leaves the place ready for Elayne to take over.

 

Enter Elayne...

 

Her pride leads her to refuse taking the Lion Throne from the silver platter in which Rand offered it to her, preferring to split her country apart through civil war that leads to chaos and famine...just what the Dark One wants. She certainly wants no Aiel presence, because they are foreign warriors in Andorian soil. Never mind that their loyalty to Rand would make them loyal to her as few would be. Nah! That doesn't work. Why don't we hire sellswords to form part of the Queensguard, instead? Never mind that those guys aren't loyal to anything or anyone but...coin...real smart move by Her Grace!

 

And after her brilliant ideas have weakened her realm, making it the ideal target for an enemy invasion, she weakens it further by concentrating on taking over Cairhien, completely overlooking the Black Sister's warning that the invasion was coming. And guess what? The invasion DID come.

 

The Shadow did not invade Tear, Illien or Caihrien. They invaded Caemlyn. And why?

 

Because those places are well-guarded, under the Dragon's Banner. Not only did Elayne refuse to have such protection in the darkest times in the history of her world, but she weakened her country further through civil war and leaving to stake her claim to the Sun Throne. Hence, Andor's ruler is such a bumbling idiot and every single move she made was so stupid that the realm became the ideal target.

 

Come think of it, you're right, David. Thinking that this amazingly idiotic girl could have known who General Matrim Cauthon is, would be asking and expecting way, way too much of her. My bad!

Hindsight is 20/20, or hindsight sees the farthest, if the first doesn't fit. Ever heard those sayings? Anyways, at the end of ToM no one could have predicted Caemlyn would have been attacked from the inside by hordes of trollocs so most of your points about that are moot. Sometimes things get overlooked, it happens.

 

Rand, Loial, Verin, and Mat all share equal blame in Caemlyns invasion if you want to go that rout, each of them could have taken different actions that would have prevented it.

 

Rand and Loial because they forgot to do anything about the waygate in Caemlyn. Verin because she should have handled Mat different, for how clever she has been with so many things so totally figured Mat wrong. And Mat for not opening Verin's letter.

[Darth Krewl]

Hindsight is 20/20. Ever heard that saying? Anyways, at the end of ToM no one could have predicted Caemlyn would have been attacked from the inside by hordes of trollocs so most of your points about that are moot. Sometimes things get overlooked, it happens.

 

Rand, Loial, Verin, and Mat all share equal blame in Caemlyns invasion if you want to go that rout, each of them could have taken different actions that would have prevented it.

 

Rand and Loial because they forgot to do anything about the waygate in Caemlyn. Verin because she should have handled Mat different, for how clever she has been with so many things so totally figured Mat wrong. And Mat for not opening Verin's letter.

 

Agreed. Those four share a most of the blame, yup.

 

Still, let's not forget that Elayne did have warning about a potential attack and, perhaps I'm wrong and need a reread, but as far as I can remember, she didn't even order a thorough investigation and analysis to verify the veracity of this threat and how it could be conducted, so that every possibility could be dealt with to the best of her people's abilities.

 

So, IMO, Elayne was irresponsible, overconfident and failed to do everything within her power to prevent a potential attack on her capital, meaning that she does deserve part of the blame herself, at least.

[folkstyle]

Also, she never even thanked him for taking her mother in. Yes he did it unintentionally, but he still took care of her and rescued her from the Aiel.

Actually she thanked him. That was supposed to be the point of the meeting and it happened in public.

 

BTW, all those claims that Elayne wanted to execute Perrin are getting tiresome and are plain wrong.

 

1. That's exactly the problem. She thanked him publicly like he did something good for andor like feeding the poor or saving the queen(which is funny cause she used to be the queen). But this is her mother...mother! She showed no emotion. No gratitude. She doesn't have to do it in public, she can thank him in private and really show that she means it, but no! she'd never do that because she has to act like she's the toughest most powerful person in the world and try to scare Perrin into doing what she wants. It's just stupid. If someone saved my mother I'd be thanking them vehemently. But whatever. it seems like some people are just not ever going to consider that she was rude and mean and the way she acted was completely unnecessary.

 

2. Also, I'm not claiming that she would have actually tried to kill him. I'm saying she couldn't have or wouldn't have done what was necessary(killing him on the spot with the One power, which is her only chance of killing him) and that it was an empty threat. The threat is just more example of her rudeness and lack of honor. You don't threaten someone who saved your mom. Not like that. Not someone that you know is a good person. I'm tired of talking about this. It's ridiculous. I don't care what her upbringing was. It doesn't matter. You don't treat people like that.

[Durinax]

Also, she never even thanked him for taking her mother in. Yes he did it unintentionally, but he still took care of her and rescued her from the Aiel.

Actually she thanked him. That was supposed to be the point of the meeting and it happened in public.

 

BTW, all those claims that Elayne wanted to execute Perrin are getting tiresome and are plain wrong.

 

1. That's exactly the problem. She thanked him publicly like he did something good for andor like feeding the poor or saving the queen(which is funny cause she used to be the queen). But this is her mother...mother! She showed no emotion. No gratitude. She doesn't have to do it in public, she can thank him in private and really show that she means it, but no! she'd never do that because she has to act like she's the toughest most powerful person in the world and try to scare Perrin into doing what she wants. It's just stupid. If someone saved my mother I'd be thanking them vehemently. But whatever. it seems like some people are just not ever going to consider that she was rude and mean and the way she acted was completely unnecessary.

 

2. Also, I'm not claiming that she would have actually tried to kill him. I'm saying she couldn't have or wouldn't have done what was necessary(killing him on the spot with the One power, which is her only chance of killing him) and that it was an empty threat. The threat is just more example of her rudeness and lack of honor. You don't threaten someone who saved your mom. Not like that. Not someone that you know is a good person. I'm tired of talking about this. It's ridiculous. I don't care what her upbringing was. It doesn't matter. You don't treat people like that.

1) since she was working towards negotiations it would be best not to put herself in perrins debt, even if its for something as great as saving her mother.

2) Threats and vague obscurities would be common practice, it would cause the other person to rethink their position and carefully consider the costs of such an event. It was empty but designed to make his position seem precarious and try to use his greed to control him.

 

Although she didnt know perrin is a straight forward, intellegent, and non greedy person. The only time I can remember she may have met him was in the Stone of Tear, and then she was totally busy with the BA. From her position she would have seen a upstart rebel claiming to be a noble house, this threatens the power structure of the whole country. I dont blame her or hold any resentment from her actions towards perrin. She had very little intell to act on, and all Morgase said (again to my recollection) he is an honourable and capable man.

[folkstyle]

1) since she was working towards negotiations it would be best not to put herself in perrins debt, even if its for something as great as saving her mother.

2) Threats and vague obscurities would be common practice, it would cause the other person to rethink their position and carefully consider the costs of such an event. It was empty but designed to make his position seem precarious and try to use his greed to control him.

 

Although she didnt know perrin is a straight forward, intellegent, and non greedy person. The only time I can remember she may have met him was in the Stone of Tear, and then she was totally busy with the BA. From her position she would have seen a upstart rebel claiming to be a noble house, this threatens the power structure of the whole country. I dont blame her or hold any resentment from her actions towards perrin. She had very little intell to act on, and all Morgase said (again to my recollection) he is an honourable and capable man.

This is EXACTLY what i'm talking about. It's stupid. I'm so tired of it. I don't care if it is common practice or not. Perrin doesn't do it. She could have easily learned this from Morgase or Galad. And yeah we didn't see Morgase say much else about Perrin on screen, but if she didn't tell Elayne anything about him off-screen then that's just plain stupid on her part and on Elayne's part for not inquiring about information about Perrin. You've just hit what i'm talking about right on the head. "don't put yourself in debt" because it'll help your negotiations! This is total bull(I want to cuss so bad right now, but i'm pretty sure it's not allowed). He saved her mother. He earned the debt. She doesn't get the opportunity to give it to him. It is his from his kind actions. End of story. This is stupid. I'm not going to argue about this any more. If you(anyone, not you specifically) think that it's right to not acknowledge when someone does something so great like saving your mother, your half brother, and all of the people of the TR then that's up to you. I for one believe that people should be acknowledged and respected for their accomplishments. I don't care how it's beneficial or detrimental for you politically. Sometimes honor, respect, and pride are more important than politics. That's my opinion. I'm not going to try to convince anyone else because you set your own values and morals.

 

Edit - I fixed some spelling and errors on my post

[Durinax]

oh I agree that after all the negotiations where done she should have thanked him.

 

I am just saying that a person can see why she shouldnt have until afterwards, especially since she didnt know if / how well he played the great game. After all the great game can kill a person in more than one way especially if they have a huge advantage over you by having you in their debt

[Val Mickey]

Elayne's arc jumps between timelines. Major confusion.

[Kaznen]

@Darth

 

I agree he should cleaned up a little for meeting with the queen and he does need to turn down the Jackass dial some. I did wonder why he and Talmanes weren't wearing official Band of the Red Hand uniforms and he should have made clear the Band is not some group of mercenaries and most of all the only "captain" he is is Captain-General of the Band. I was gritting my teeth every time some one called to him "Master Cauthorn" I understand why he didn't want to be called "Lord Cauthorn," "High Lord Cauthorn," or "Prince Cauthorn" even though he has the rights to be called such but he is fiercely proud of The Band of the Red Hand and it seemed to me that allowing the others to belittle him that way they belittled the Band also so if Elayne wanted to be formal she should have called him Captain-General or just General Cauthorn, she would if the "mercenary" she was talking to was a Whitecloak officer. The AS in Salidar had that much respect for him.

 

But, keep in mind he thought Elayne knew he was in Caemlyn and was intentionally ignoring him. He didn't know Norry just lumped him in with the rest of the mercenary companies. He wrote that letter in that way to get her attention to the urgency of his need to see her.

 

And as for him and the other "great captains." Most of his casual comments Mat made in the waste regarding military matters were overheard by clan chiefs and/or Lan, which caused them to raise an eyebrow, which for an Aiel clan chief and Lan is open mouth astonishment from regular people. Then between FoH and LoC he did most of the planning for the campaign against Illian, with Bashere covering the minor details and Rand just nodding his head. Bashere was very impressed with Mat as a military genius to the point he thinks of Mat as at least his equal if not his better.

 

And there was no way Bryne wouldn't have gone to check out the Band for himself when they were camped outside Salidar. And given they arrived at noon and essentially built a fortress by sundown would tell Garath the man leading them knows what he's about. Plus he didn't keep secret how impressed he was with Talmanes, Mat's subordinate.

 

But something everyone is overlooking considering the Band and Queen's Guard. "Off camera," in FoH Mat fought at least 3 battles with the Queen's Guard, each time outnumbered and soundly defeated them. He was the driving force that led to their retreat out of Cairahien into Aringail. And most of the reinforcements of the Queen's Guard were from Arigail. So the elite soldiers of Andor, trained by Gareth Bryne himself, were defeated by Mat. I'm sure one of the officers would have told Elayne this at some point.

[Mr Ares]

Andor didn't press its claim against the TR because they could hold either the mines in the Mountains of Mist or the TR, and they chose the mines for sound economic reasons. They turned their attention back their because it raised banners in rebellion - thus presenting a challenge to Andor's sovereignty over the land, something which had not previously been in dispute. She did treat him with the respect he deserves, but that doesn't mean he can go around spearheading rebellions without consequences. Much as he can't go around murdering Whitecloaks without having to face trial for it. Remember, for a good long while the TR benfited from free trade with the rest of Andor, so it's not at all as if they were denied all the benfits of being part of Andor. Also, while they might not have seen themselves as Andorans, they didn't actually do anythong to secede. Thus, they tacitly accepted the status quo, them being legally Andoran, for a long time.

1. You make a good point here, except the part abou the sovereignty not previously being in dispute because it was stated when Morgase was queen that the TR isn’t really part of Andor. Elayne recalls this as a child. Anyways, you’ve changed my mind on this one. There isn’t really any mention of wanting the TR because of its prosperity so I can now see how my previous statement had no backing

The statement about the TR not really being part of Andor is merely an acknowledgement that their claim is only on paper at present. The sovereignty is not in dispute (no-one else is claiming the land - not even the TR folks, as theyare not trying to set up a new TR state, until Perrin).

2. This does lead me to another point however. If your statement is that Elayne is turning her attention to the TR now because it has raised its own flags (and I’ll agree this is probably correct) then you are saying she is a queen who only cares about her people when they rise against her. This isn’t a quality that I’d want in a queen. So I’m back to the fact that she doesn’t really consider the TR important, so they don’t get any attention, until they raise against her. She should give all of her subjects attention. She has time to take of Cairhien, she should have time to get her own country in order.

It's more a matter of raising banners being what happened to bring them to her attention than that being the only reason she cares. She would probably try to extend her rule there anyway, even if the region had remained as it was in EotW. She has given thought to creating a postal system and made an agreement with the Kin to use them to make Gateways - it looks very much like she has an interest in increasing her control over the whole realm, increasing their communications infrastructure. Far flung regions are suddenly rather less cut off than they were. She means for the Queen's Writ to run over the whole of Andor, and it just so happened that the TR came to her attention sooner rather than later because they rebelled.

 

The TR was brought to Caemlyn's attention because they rebelled, not because they became prosperous. And there are other prosperous parts of Andor, without High Lords. I doubt the TR has a bigger economy than them. So that excuse would have fooled no-one, it would simply appear to be a flimsy cover for Perrin declaring himself a Lord and keeping the title because he had a big enough army, thus an inducement to rebellion. Making Perrin a Lord might be a simple move, but it has repercussions, repercussions that might negatively affect the TR, and would certainly negatively impact Caemlyn. Also, I'm not sure I would call rewarding Perrin for the good he did but not punishing him for the bad to be fair.

What other prosperous areas are you talking about? I don't remember mention of any. I am guessing that you are just assuming there are other prosperous areas, maybe Baerlon or whitebridge, either way I don't know the situation with them and can't assume that they are as prosperous as the TR. The villages of the TR have grown into towns now and collectively make a pretty large area.

We know the TR tabac crop is not the only source of Andor's prosperity. Consider how Elayne funded her bid for the throne - alum deposits were discovered on one of her estates, and she exploited them. And there re lots of towns and farms throughout Andor, so it would be foolish to assume any especial properity for the TR without direct confirmation.

 

Arguable. It could certainly lead to a very costly struggle. After all, Elayne can hardly let it be seen that it is OK to rebel, can she? What if she just plonked an army down on one side of the river and didn't let anyone across? With no exports, the TR economy would take a hit, and can they raise sufficient food to feed their population?

I don’t know for sure what the economic results of blocking trade would have on the TR, but I think it is safe to say that they could raise sufficient food, since the entire area was originally farms. Also, on the economy issue, war is commonly beneficial to the economy because more supplies and equipment is needed. People can easily shift their normal jobs to jobs that will benefit the army and the defense of their land. And since Perrin kept the gold the the Aeil had in Malden, I think he’d be plenty able to pay his people for this work.s

Well, the TR population has been swollen by a number of refugees, and as you noted they went from four villages to four towns. If the population is increasing, then so is the need for food. Blocking trade would have a negative effect on the TR economy, because they would have no new money coming in. Perrin might have a lot of gold, but eventually it would run out. During the American Civil War, the Confederate economy was hurt by a lack of cotton exports. Wars cost money, and the money has to come from somewhere. If you have no new money coming in, eventually you'll run out. And that's just if they decide to play a waiting game - if they can cross into the TR, just start slashing and burning the crops in the fields.

 

Well, how loyal are Grady and Neald to Perrin? If it came to a conflict between Perrin and Elayne, would they consider a war against the Queen of Andor to be within their remit? There would also be consequences to Asha'man getting involved. The White Tower wouldn't stand for it, so any move against Elayne Sedai puts AS and AM on a collision course. They'd have to be stupid not to realise the potential for conflict. So, they are very limited in how much they can help Perrin.

1.Grady and Neald are very loyal to Perrin. Grady states this in ToM in the section of the book where he wants to go see his family. They recognize that Perrin is a true leader and would definitely protect him. Perrin had to tell Grady to wait outside when he visits Elayne. This to me is indicative of the fact that Grady wants to an will protect Perrin from Elayne.

2.They wouldn’t be stupid at all. They know the AS have already fought with AM. They were at Dumai’s wells and they are constantly watching the AS. To say that they wouldn’t fight because Elayne is AS is just wrong IMO. I don’t think that would affect them at all. They would protect Perrin.

I accept your point about loyalty, but Elayne is a strong AS, and there are a lot of channelers (Kin and AS) in Caemlyn. If Elayne imprisoned Perrin and Grady sprung him, it probably wouldn't lead to outright war. If he attacked her? That could cause problems. The Asha'man are limited in what they can do if they don't want to cause a diplomatic disaster. It really could cause all manner of problems if handled badly.

 

Those qualities are all well and good, but Perrin was a traitor. Elayne had every right to treat him as she did, because he made mistakes that put the TR and Andor onto a collision course, and it was her that got them out of it, not him.

Yes Perrin is a traitor in that he raised his own flags and became the lord of the TR, but he is not rebelling against Andor so he’s not really a traitor. And had he not done what he’d done then all of the TR would be destroyed and Elayne wouldn’t even have people there to rule. He the lives of the TR people and she doesn’t even recognize this. I think that she did a good job of trying to come up with a solution that would be accepted publicly, but she goes about getting this solution by being a tyrant, making empty threats and false accusations, and that’s what I can’t stand for.

By raising his banners, Perrin does make himself a rebel against the throne. But it wasn't raising the banners that saved the TR. If Perrin had just saved it, no wolfhead banner, certainly not the Red Eagle, then Elayne would probably have been thrilled with him saving the region at no cost to herself, and rewarded him accordingly. But he didn't. Granted, he didn't order the banners up, quite the reverse (although I'd say it speaks to a failure of leadership that they will not obey his orders in this manner), but they were up, and he was in charge. For generations, the TR had been allowed to go about its business. Then it decides to raise the flag of Manetheren. A direct challenge to the throne, with the potential to cause all manner of discord in her country. Yes, Perrin did good in saving his people, no-one is denying that. But in what came afterwards, he made himself a rebel. Not by design, but he did so all the same. What empty threats or false accusations did she make?

 

But even with the population boom Two Rivers isn't anywhere populous enough to justify the High lord title. There were all of 4 villages there at the start of the series, with something like several thousand occupants in total. They were hit hard by the Trollocs invasion. IIRC even after the influx of refugees, Perrin had only been able to collect something like 3000 - 4000 Two Rivers men for his army which Tam al'Thor led to join him back in KoD. On the other hand, each of the 19 Andoran High Seats are able to call to arms around 10 000 trained men.

I’m not sure about that stat of 10,000 trained men. I can’t find the numbers anywhere online, but I’ll take your word for it until I can get my hands on my books. In all honesty I forgot about him being a “high” lord, so I’ll take my idea back. Elayne seems to have the best solution(giving it to Rand), but I wish they had made stipulations about children.

They did: "We'll have him [Rand] appoint Perrin's line as his Stewards." ToM 47. That's Perrin's kids sorted. As for Rand's, well, he's a lord. Who inherits a lord's lands and titles?

 

 

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

 

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

It´s within living memory of some sisters who are usually secluded in their Tower. What do they have to with anything?

 

The legal authority over the TR has been accepted? Huh? By whom? Did i miss something in the books somewhere?

 

Evidently. I suggest a re-read of Towers of Midnight, because in it Perrin accepts Elayne's authority over the TR, accepts the ligitimacy of their claim.

 

No he didn´t. He just went along with the charade to help Elayne save face to prevent war within the Light side. You really think he is going to hop when Elayne says toad?

Perrin did accept Elayne's authority. If he chooses to go back on his word it just proves she was right to think of him as a traitor. The end result was "That seems reasonable." From Perrin. He accepted her sovereignty.

 

And what legal claim does Andor have? Is there some universal law given by the Creator which regulates these matters? If you can take it, it´s yours. Perrin took it. He can hold it. Elayne can´t.

Perrin gave it away. Andor's legal claim is the same as that of any country to the territories it controls.

 

 

Enter Rand...

 

He kicks Rhavin's arse and regains Andor for the Light. He reestablishes order and stability and leaves the place ready for Elayne to take over.

 

Enter Elayne...

 

Her pride leads her to refuse taking the Lion Throne from the silver platter in which Rand offered it to her, preferring to split her country apart through civil war that leads to chaos and famine...just what the Dark One wants. She certainly wants no Aiel presence, because they are foreign warriors in Andorian soil. Never mind that their loyalty to Rand would make them loyal to her as few would be. Nah! That doesn't work. Why don't we hire sellswords to form part of the Queensguard, instead? Never mind that those guys aren't loyal to anything or anyone but...coin...real smart move by Her Grace!

Interesting the way you ignore the gap between Exit Rand and Enter Elayne. If Elayne had shown up as soon as Rand left, she might have found it much easier, but she was busy elsewhere. Furthermore, Rand giving her Andor on a silver platter creates problems further down the line, as she is his puppet queen. She doesn't want to be a puppet, so she can't be seen as being given the throne by Rand, but has to take it on her own merits.

 

And after her brilliant ideas have weakened her realm, making it the ideal target for an enemy invasion, she weakens it further by concentrating on taking over Cairhien, completely overlooking the Black Sister's warning that the invasion was coming. And guess what? The invasion DID come.

How does her move on Cairhien weaken Andor? Andor loses no soldiers over it, it isn't stretched thin because of it. The precautions Elayne took against invasion were taken before her move on Cairhien, so how does that negatively affect Andor?

 

 

The country was already on the brink of civil war before she arrived. The Andoran High Nobles were gathering armies left, right and centre and they declared straight out to Rand they only tolerated him for a time until Elayne and the succession gets resolved between them without his interference. It was made clear numerous times in the books that all of those nobles and their retainers will rise against Rand's forces and Elayne, if she accept his Aiel forces as help. Yes, I don't get why they behaved that way, since they didn't have much chance to beat the Rand's Aiel, and should've postponed all that until the Last Battle, but that's the way Jordan wrote it and who am I to argue with him.

 

Yes, I do remember Rand feeling urgency over turning over the Lion Throne to Elayne...precisely to bring civil unrest that could lead to war down the road under control.

And Rand's statements about giving the throne to Elayne would have caused civil unrest.

 

Right...

Of course, by taking over Cairhien peacefully, the armies Elayne could call upon, increased significantly overnight, but who cares about such details. I'd love to hear an explanation how this weakens Andor.

 

Are those armies in Andor, right now? Fighting the scores of Trollocs who invaded its capital in the epilogue?

That still doesn't explain how Andor was weakened. At best you could argue that Andor was not strengthened, but that hardly justifies saying Elayne made a stupid move. And Andor was strengthened, because while those extra soldiers aren't stationed in Andor, they can be brought into Andor to repel the invasion.

 

I don't think the country was weakened. Before the civil war Andor's forces were split in many factions all around the country. The fighting during the civil war was a siege, with minimum casualties, the city had enough food throughout. After that Elayne had the support of nearly all the nobles and most ready to fight Andoran men are mobilised, prepared for war and gathered in or around Caemlyn.

 

"You don't think". That's valid. Not a quote from the books, yet again, but valid. I just happen to think the opposite for the reasons I've already stated: Caemlyn was weak after Elayne left. Otherwise, the Shadow wouldn't have targeted it.

Except Andor was targeted before she left.

 

 

Rand, Loial, Verin, and Mat all share equal blame in Caemlyns invasion if you want to go that rout, each of them could have taken different actions that would have prevented it.

 

Rand and Loial because they forgot to do anything about the waygate in Caemlyn.

Actually, they didn't. It is stated in KoD that the Caemlyn Waygate has been dealt with. Verin's letter notes that it is felt to be secure, but it isn't. Precautions were taken, but they proved to be insufficient.

[f3llyn]

Rand, Loial, Verin, and Mat all share equal blame in Caemlyns invasion if you want to go that rout, each of them could have taken different actions that would have prevented it.

 

Rand and Loial because they forgot to do anything about the waygate in Caemlyn.

Actually, they didn't. It is stated in KoD that the Caemlyn Waygate has been dealt with. Verin's letter notes that it is felt to be secure, but it isn't. Precautions were taken, but they proved to be insufficient.

IIRC they only placed guards around/near it. Not nearly enough so there is still fault to go around. Anyways it doesn't matter, my point was that if you blame Elayne for something there was absolutely no possible way she could have predicted, others share the blame for it as well. Some more so than others. Any one of the people I mentioned could have prevented the Caemlyn attack and yet the blame for it falls on Elayne?

[Darth Krewl]

@Darth

 

I agree he should cleaned up a little for meeting with the queen and he does need to turn down the Jackass dial some. I did wonder why he and Talmanes weren't wearing official Band of the Red Hand uniforms and he should have made clear the Band is not some group of mercenaries and most of all the only "captain" he is is Captain-General of the Band. I was gritting my teeth every time some one called to him "Master Cauthorn" I understand why he didn't want to be called "Lord Cauthorn," "High Lord Cauthorn," or "Prince Cauthorn" even though he has the rights to be called such but he is fiercely proud of The Band of the Red Hand and it seemed to me that allowing the others to belittle him that way they belittled the Band also so if Elayne wanted to be formal she should have called him Captain-General or just General Cauthorn, she would if the "mercenary" she was talking to was a Whitecloak officer. The AS in Salidar had that much respect for him.

 

But, keep in mind he thought Elayne knew he was in Caemlyn and was intentionally ignoring him. He didn't know Norry just lumped him in with the rest of the mercenary companies. He wrote that letter in that way to get her attention to the urgency of his need to see her.

 

And as for him and the other "great captains." Most of his casual comments Mat made in the waste regarding military matters were overheard by clan chiefs and/or Lan, which caused them to raise an eyebrow, which for an Aiel clan chief and Lan is open mouth astonishment from regular people. Then between FoH and LoC he did most of the planning for the campaign against Illian, with Bashere covering the minor details and Rand just nodding his head. Bashere was very impressed with Mat as a military genius to the point he thinks of Mat as at least his equal if not his better.

 

And there was no way Bryne wouldn't have gone to check out the Band for himself when they were camped outside Salidar. And given they arrived at noon and essentially built a fortress by sundown would tell Garath the man leading them knows what he's about. Plus he didn't keep secret how impressed he was with Talmanes, Mat's subordinate.

 

But something everyone is overlooking considering the Band and Queen's Guard. "Off camera," in FoH Mat fought at least 3 battles with the Queen's Guard, each time outnumbered and soundly defeated them. He was the driving force that led to their retreat out of Cairahien into Aringail. And most of the reinforcements of the Queen's Guard were from Arigail. So the elite soldiers of Andor, trained by Gareth Bryne himself, were defeated by Mat. I'm sure one of the officers would have told Elayne this at some point.

 

Excellent points. I remember Lan's shock at hearing Mat's prowess as a military commander after he gets the memories from the 'finns.

 

I can totally relate to the way he feels about nobles and how he'd prefer good Two Rivers wool over silks and linen. He just doesn't help his case much, when speaking to snotty snobs (like Elayne, precisely) with rags like that coat he had on during the meeting and I think he admits it, after Thom insists on getting him a "decent" coat.

 

Now, in addition to Mat, there's also Elayne's thoughts on wanting to kill Perrin. Which, IMO, is much, much worse than the way she treats Mat. To even consider killing a guy who is close to Rand (meaning that he must be an ally and not the dangerous rebel threat that she deems him to be) w/o trying to find out what the hell happened in the Two Rivers that would make them raise the Manetheren and Wolf banners is, frankly, completely idiotic.

 

At least she didn't kill him, though she did try to bully him into submission. Perrin, at that point, would have none of that, of course. But the mere thought of wanting him dead, before anything else, shows how ruthless and ambitious this girl is.

 

 

. . .

 

I had a hard time finding my quotes in your post. I read them, but I'm not gonna paste them here. Too much trouble separating them from all the other posts.

 

Suffice to say that, if I'm "average Joe" from Andor and someone asks me about recent rulers, I'd have to place Elayne as the worst of the three people who've held the Lion Throne in recent history (covering the books). I wouldn't even take "Lord Gaebril" into consideration 'cause of how short lived his rule was and 'cause he did most of his damage behind Morgase, using her via Compulsion.

 

So I'd pin all that Rhavin did on Morgase but, taking into consideration the order and stability that I had during most of her reign, I would say that Elayne bringing chaos, civil war, strife, hunger (if not outright famine) and now, hordes and more hordes of damned Trollocs to my capital is the worst rule of Andor in a long time, if not ever.

 

Because my point has been the state of affairs in Andor since Elayne took over, regardless on whose fault it is. So, Andor was already headed into civil war, chaos and famine, as per the order "let the Lord of Chaos rule". Fine. Either way, that doesn't mean that Elayne has failed miserably as ruler, since she hasn't been able to bring any order, peace and stability to Andor since she took over.

 

She is the queen, is she not? Regardless of how she came into possession of the throne. The well-being of her people and realm are her sole responsibility; they should come first and foremost, but the girl's spent more time thinking about capturing Black Ajah and securing her rule over Caihrien and the Two Rivers. She's been thinking about expanding her realm, instead of securing what she has in place now and taking measures to take on Tarmon Gai'don, which is something every other single ruler across the Randland have been doing.

 

So, any which way one wishes to look at it, Elayne hasn't been able to stabilize her kingdom. Instead, she left to go establish her rule elsewhere. And now, the capital of Andor is in serious danger of falling to the Shadow. And that's a fact. No one can deny it. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and Elayne's intentions haven't even been that good for the sake of all Andorans. But she paved the road to the hell that Caemlyn was by the epilogue real good. Hence, as a monarch, Elayne Trakand is one MAJOR failure.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

. . .

 

I had a hard time finding my quotes in your post. I read them, but I'm not gonna paste them here. Too much trouble separating them from all the other posts.

 

Suffice to say that, if I'm "average Joe" from Andor and someone asks me about recent rulers, I'd have to place Elayne as the worst of the three people who've held the Lion Throne in recent history (covering the books). I wouldn't even take "Lord Gaebril" into consideration 'cause of how short lived his rule was and 'cause he did most of his damage behind Morgase, using her via Compulsion.

 

So I'd pin all that Rhavin did on Morgase but, taking into consideration the order and stability that I had during most of her reign, I would say that Elayne bringing chaos, civil war, strife, hunger (if not outright famine) and now, hordes and more hordes of damned Trollocs to my capital is the worst rule of Andor in a long time, if not ever.

 

Elayne did NOT bring chaos and civil war. The chaos and civil war were already brewing. Elayne's rule as of ToM is currently QUITE stable. She CAN'T do anything about the famine. That is the Dark One's fault, and nothing she can do can change it. She has done her best in the circumstances. Could you do any better? Famine is not her fault. It is the work of the Dark One and she is powerless to stop it. There is famine EVERYWHERE. The only reason why Perrin's troops are not suffering is because of Perrin being Ta'vern. She also did NOT bring hordes of Trollocs into Caemlyn. Are you accusing her of being a darkfriend? To her knowledge, there is no way a Trolloc can suddenly jump to Caemlyn. After all, it is assumed that the waygate is secured. Only Verin, and now Olver knows that it isn't so. How can you blame Elayne for preparing for something she wouldn't know about?

 

All your points are moot. Elayne did not bring any of those things into the country. The country was already brewing with those things before she arrived. She has been doing as much as she can on a shaky throne since TPoD. Half the country didn't even support, let alone listen to her till the end of KoD. What could she do? She can only do as much as she can within a limited amount of time. Since only ToM. That isn't a lot of time prepare. And anyway, the Chaos and the Civil war have vanished since the end of the KoD so that point isn't valid anymore anyway.

[folkstyle]

Mr. Ares - we're just going to have to disagree. We could go back and forth making our points, but it's not working. I read what you said, thought about it and then formed my statements after accepting some of the things you said and adding them into my considerations, but you don't seem to consider anything I say. If you're not even going to consider what the other person in the argument says then there's no point in even discussing it. So now I'm back to the fact that we'll just have to disagree. I will admit you have changed my mind on some subjects though :)