Discuss The Prophecies

[OneAwesomeOpossum]

Ok so running through the options for the wolf. There's 4 criteria for this person in the prophecy.

 

- wolf or some sort of wolf connection;

- their destruction must bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself;

- they must be consumed by the Midnight Towers; and

- they must have known Death.

 

The general consensus is that the Midnight Towers could refer to either the Seanchant, the Forsaken or the ToG so I'll assume either/or for those here.

 

I'll also note that it says they will be destroyed, as opposed to killed (Mesaana could be said to have been destroyed, Graendal's compulsion destroyed people etc). It could simply mean being killed though, again I'll treat it as either/or.

 

Now looking at the people it could be and who fits the criteria.

 

Hopper: a wolf, knows death, destruction did not bring fear, sorrow or shake anyone's will, was not consumed by the Forsaken, Seanchan or the ToG. 2 of 4 criteria met.

 

Lan: no connection to wolves, death would bring fear and sorrow and shake people's will, knows death through battle and through his link breaking with Moiraine, may actually die, no connection to Seanchan or ToG, no specific personal connection to the Forsaken. 2 of 4 criteria met.

 

Jain: no connection to wolves, no connection to the Seanchan, a connection to the Forsaken and to Moridin specifically, destruction did not bring fear and sorrow, didn't shake people's will. Was consumed by the ToG. 2 of 4, possibly 3 of 4 if you can accept that his death would shake the will of the people.

 

Ituralde: known as the wolf, has known death on the battlefield and may actually die, the death/destruction of a Great Captain for the Light would cause fear and sorrow and shake the will of the people/troops in the last battle, is connected to the Seanchan, is connected to the Forsaken, not connected to ToG. 3 of 4 criteria met, if he is destroyed in some way related to the Forsaken or Seanchan (which has been set up through his connections) then 4 of 4.

 

So from those I think we can rule out Lan and Hopper, leaving Jain and Ituralde. Jain can meet a maximum of 3 of 4 of the criteria, Ituralde can meet 4 of 4.

 

Convince me otherwise!

 

Didn't mention Perrin. Connection to wolves (Wolfbrother), has know death (family murdered by Fain), if the Midnight Towers refer to the Forsaken then he could def die via them, death would certainly cause fear and sorrow. 4 of 4 criteria met. Also Graendal and Moridin believed this.

 

And I think Lan has a connection to wolves. As a warder, the most often attribute they are associated with is their "wolfish" grace. 3 of 4 met.

 

Which really just shows that in a series as large as the WoT, it's hard to pin down the meaning of these dang prophecies :(

[vfletcher]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Rodel Ituralde is known as "the Wolf". He's a soldier, has known death on battlefields etc, or knowing Death could be some sort of reference to an encounter with Moridin. The loss of one of the great captains would bring fear and sorrow, much moreso than the loss of the other potential people it could be referring to.

 

The one eyed fool is clearly Mat, although who will he be mourning? Someone close to him is likely to die in the attack on Caemlyn perhaps, could be Olver or Talmanes, really guessing there though.

 

First among vermin has to be Rand, I really don't see how anyone could read anything else out of that one. Aside from LTT being First Among Servants Rand is also the Champion of the Light, the leader of those who are at war with the Shadow etc. The prophecy mentions him lifting a 'hand', not hands, it refers to the first among vermin bringing freedom to 'Him Who will Destroy' i.e. the DO, and we know Rand intends to break the seals.

 

First among Vermin is Fain!!

[crondom]

First time poster, be gentle...

 

I do not think that Lan will die at the last battle:

 

Remember in Nynaeve's test for the Accepted, the third situation she found herself in was post-last battle, and she was happily married to Lan, now I know it's easy to dismiss this as a fantasy created solely for the purpose of testing, but what I find odd is the reference to Sharina Sedai, who later appears as a minor character in the Kin, and whom Nynaeve reacts to on hearing her name.

 

I think the fact that a) Sharina exists b)she appears to be very powerful (and could therefore end up as a prominent Aes Sedai) c)Nynaeve reacts to her existence all point to this vision having a measure of truth/possiblity in it, therefore indicating that Lan does not die but ends up happyily ever after.

 

Also as a matter of instinct I think it would be a pretty boring conclusion for Lan's character that after being aware of his 'fated' death his whole life, and despite meeting a reason to live in Nynaeve, that he just ends up dying as he's assuemd all along

 

thoughts?

[Bob T Dwarf]

True. There's no absolute requirement that consistent language must be used in a Dark Prophesy.

 

It just seems needlessly obtuse for Perrin to be both the Fallen Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf.

[FarShainMael]

@crondom; I don't think Lan will die either, for different reasons (which actually makes it more likely..). Min had a viewing of Lan back in EotW15, of 'Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword'. We know that Min's viewings always relate to the future.. so Nyn has to get pregnant, and I don't think that's happened yet. I don't think she was pregnant when she was tested for the shawl; it surely wouldn't have been allowed for fear of damaging her unborn. And there's nothing in Lan's PoV in that final charge to suggest that he had encountered her since his army started gathering. So yes, I think the cavalry's going to come over the hill.

[OneAwesomeOpossum]

I don't know if that's 100% true. For example, we have the firefly v. darkness viewing which isn't really about the future but is more of sign of the war against the Shadow. I think that the seven towers are the towers of Malkier, and the babe in the cradle with the sword is Lan himself, not his child with Nyn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't know if that's 100% true. For example, we have the firefly v. darkness viewing which isn't really about the future but is more of sign of the war against the Shadow. I think that the seven towers are the towers of Malkier, and the babe in the cradle with the sword is Lan himself, not his child with Nyn.

 

Nah. Min's viewing are always about the future. In order for the baby to Lan himself it would have to be a vision nearly one complete turning of the Wheel in the future. Doesn't seem likely.

[Kahlika]

Didn't mention Perrin. Connection to wolves (Wolfbrother), has know death (family murdered by Fain), if the Midnight Towers refer to the Forsaken then he could def die via them, death would certainly cause fear and sorrow. 4 of 4 criteria met. Also Graendal and Moridin believed this.

 

And I think Lan has a connection to wolves. As a warder, the most often attribute they are associated with is their "wolfish" grace. 3 of 4 met.

 

Which really just shows that in a series as large as the WoT, it's hard to pin down the meaning of these dang prophecies :(

 

Yes true, Perrin could fulfil all of them. Admittedly I just assumed it wasn't him because of the wording of the prophecy, since he's already referred to as the Blacksmith it seems redundant to then refer to him with a different name rather than putting both bits that would be relative to him (assuming the broken wolf is him of course, I don't think it is) into the same section.

 

My intention was mainly to rule out the more ridiculous theories. It can't be Hopper, Lan or Jain, they can't meet all the criteria.

 

Lan really doesn't have a connection to wolves. Moving with a 'wolfish grace' (can you find or refer me to a quote on that specific to Lan btw? I couldn't find one) really isn't enough of an association. If that were sufficient we could start throwing every person in the story who'd moved gracefully in as fitting that criteria, every Warder, every Blademaster, it would be meaningless. You can wiggle anyone into fitting any of the criteria if you stretch the words the right way (are you Aes Sedai btw ;P).

 

The 'wolf' doesn't define who Lan is, it's not an animal associated with him. Lan is also associated with other animals, the Golden Crane of Malkier is his flag, Warders as a group are referred to as Lions a number of times, so why would wolf be used to symbolise him when there are those other options that do have a much stronger association?

[seraphim]

I wonder if Graendal and Moridin misunderstood that prophecy of the shadow. It doesnt actually say that Perrin (the Fallen Blacksmith) will die. Instead, it says that the last days of his pride shall come. He has healed the rift between himself and the wolves, no longer blaming them and no longer fearing the wolf inside himself...Then the prophecy goes on to say The "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. Up to this point, Death has never known Perrin. I also do not recall him ever having been referred to as a Broken Wolf.

 

However, Hopper could fit this description very well. He was killed in the waking world (Death has known him), and when he died in the world of dreams, that could theoretically fit with the definition of being "consumed by the Midnight Towers".

 

Just a thought...

 

What about Bashere? Broken Crown/ Wolf's head baton....maybe?

[Bob T Dwarf]

What about Bashere? Broken Crown/ Wolf's head baton....maybe?

 

Possible. Bashere does head my Red Shirt list, and it's the wolf's death that is supposed to make the Light go weak in the knees.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

But its mentioned that the Death has known the Broken Wolf...Death i assume is Moridin and its also given that the Broken wolf will fall and be consumed by the Midnight towers and this will shake the very will of men. So i do not think it will be Ituralde or Bashere. It has to be someone important.. someone who knows Moridin and his fall will affect everyone.

 

But i have no idea who... Also, they mention Rand as the Broken Champion. Why is Rand broken??? is it related to his physical deformity?or is it something else?

[rambling]

 

and the First Among Vermin

Vermin implies a lack of respect so I don't think this can be Rand, the DO may hate him but there is respect there. The definition of vermin is an unpleasant, obnoxious, or dangerous person, it also implies expendible. For lack of a better candidate I'll say Fain.

lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,

He may well have his own reasons for doing something to 'free' the DO. Maybe, unwittingly, he'll be involved with the braking of the seals - that would justify his presence here.

I don't think it can be Fain. According to RJ he's outside the normal weaving of the pattern now, a free agent unique to this Age. I don't believe he can necessarily be predicted in prophecy and potentially can cause any of them to fail, including Fortellings and Min's visions.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 15 November 1998, Dayton, OH - Scott Cantor reporting

 

He also mentioned the fact that Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably.

 

"RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern." In what ways? And why can't he say for certain?

"He also mentioned the fact that Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably."

- Yes, he is a wild card. My point was that Fain might unwittingly (or even deliberately) do something of great consequence in the LB. In fact, the way he's been set up I'd be astonished if he didn't. The only question is - what?

I don't see how any of this prevents Fain from being in a prophecy. Too many loopholes

 

edited for clearer explanation

[Cazajay]

Do we know if anyone else is associated with wolves - not necessarily as a wolfbrother, but potentially just through house or national symbols?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bashere carries something with a wolf in it, I think it's his sword pommel. And we know he's associated with the 'Broken Crown'. My money is on Bashere being the Broken Wolf. Of course, I believe 'Death' refers to Moridin (since death is capitalized in the prophecy). This implies interesting things if Moridin knows Bashere.

I find this to be an interesting point...when we first saw the reincarnation of the 'Gars I'm pretty sure they commented that the bodies were stolen from the Borderland, seeing as Moridin was also a reincarnation, that body could also have come from the borderland. I believe that the Baton he carries has a wolf on the Pommel as well, as previously discussed the "Broken" part can come from whatever relationship he has to the Broken Wolf. His death would certainly shake the hearts and will of men because he is the General in charge of the Legion of the Dragon. Though I don't know of any accurate numbers, I feel like the Legion of the Dragon will have some substantial influence with those fighting the last battle (Combination of them and Aiel serving as an "honor guard" for Rand, since we know the Maidens won't leave him.) I can find Bashere as a plausible candidate for "Broken Wolf"

As far as the criteria for the "Broken Wolf" having already fallen I don't think that is the case. The fall of the Broken Wolf is in the same stanza that refers to events on the day of the seals being broken. At this point I think that "being consumed by the towers of midnight" part has yet to occur, thus that condition has not yet been met.

We overlook here that Wolf has to apply to a literal Wolf, it could be a term used to suggest something like an annoying enemy that is hard to kill. I still view Lan as a strong candidate for the Broken Wolf title.

 

I find the "First Among Vermin" link to Fortuona to be an interesting one as well, and something worth considering.

 

I too am for Bashere being the Broken Wolf folk tend to take the phrophecy far too literally if it was that simple to interpret it would be easy to avoid. As prophecy isn't set in stone the future is always in motion otherwise there wouldn't be Mirror Worlds.

However it doesn't say the Broken Wolf will die it states "he will fall and be consumed by the Tower of Midnight" note that it's Consumed could this have something to do with what's happenning at the Black Tower?

Note also it states "to whom Death has known" I too noticed the Capital letter it is deffo a name given to a person so that's Moridin without a doubt.

I had a theory about the bodies used for Transmigration I theorized on another thread that Taim was captured in Saldea not freed by the BA and the DO used his body to house Ishmaels soul and called him Moridin. This is how Death/Moridin knows Bashere through Taim, perhaps it's like another version of Slayer a Moridin/Taim combo hence Bashere not totally recognizing Taim at first in the encounter with Rand. Also explains LTT irrational reaction towards Taim. Has anyone noticed LTT reacted with the Kill them all threat to only Asha'man we now know are loyal to Taim. I'd need to double check that but I have an instinct I may be right which is another LTT reaction to Evil Rand ignored.

 

For the Taim/Moridin theory the Timeline fits Ishmael died in stone of tear. A Captured BA in Tear had heard of a plan to free Mazrim Taim.

Lets say the DO altered that plan slightly after Ishmael died as he is favoured by him. Perhaps Taim's body was initially meant for Aginor but plan changed after Ishmael snuffed it.

 

As to the Aelfinn words to Rand "two must be as one" Id like to think they meant Rand and Lews. Not Rand and Moridin. Now Rand is whole in mind he is more likely to succeed.

I also don't believe Rand is likely to touch the TP again he is safe from that now.

His comment to the Borderlanders suggests the Test they did would have failed as Moridin or even Rand turned to shadow would be meeting them instead without LTT memories he would have failed Test and Balefired them all with TP if they tried to kill him.

Rand is now fully aware how close he was to losing himself and the LB through that connection.

[rambling]

Do we know if anyone else is associated with wolves - not necessarily as a wolfbrother, but potentially just through house or national symbols?

 

... I too am for Bashere being the Broken Wolf folk tend to take the phrophecy far too literally if it was that simple to interpret it would be easy to avoid. As prophecy isn't set in stone the future is always in motion otherwise there wouldn't be Mirror Worlds.

However it doesn't say the Broken Wolf will die it states "he will fall and be consumed by the Tower of Midnight" note that it's Consumed ....

 

 

The use of 'consumed' bothers me too. It could also mean absorbed, as in someone sent to attack the Seanchan is forced (or not) to join them instead.

 

As for someone else being connected to wolves, I'm sure I remember a passing comment that someone had something with a picture of a wolf with them. I've been thinking about this for days now. I've checked the usual suspects, it's not Faile's knife, nor the mercenaries at Caemlyn who ride behind a banner with a wolf on it, nor Bashere, nor Iturlade....

Maybe someone else will remember

[GusE]

"The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." I thought that was completed in LoC. But now that the BA + Mesaana is taken care of, the White Tower for the first time ever is really unstained. Will Rand force a real unification with the Black Tower? And will they use Elaida's groundwork to make an Asha'man tower in Tar Valon?

[didymos]

The Broken Wolf is Narg reborn. He was one of those Wolf-faced, chatty Trollocs and we all know Brandon wanted an excuse to put him in these books somewhere. The sorrow and breaking hearts bit will be fullfilled by all the annoyed readers when they realize what Brandon's done.

[didymos]

As for someone else being connected to wolves, I'm sure I remember a passing comment that someone had something with a picture of a wolf with them. I've been thinking about this for days now. I've checked the usual suspects, it's not Faile's knife, nor the mercenaries at Caemlyn who ride behind a banner with a wolf on it, nor Bashere, nor Iturlade....

Maybe someone else will remember

 

Lord Luc had a golden buckle in the shape of a wolf's head on his sword-belt. He also had wolves embroidered on his gauntlets. Then there was Aram, with the wolf's head on the pommel of his sword. Finally, Faile has a dagger with a wolf's head on the hilt. She killed Masema with it.

 

ETA: Oh yeah. There was that tacky mantelpiece of wolves taking down a stag in Tear that Rand melted. And Perrin has a cloak-pin of two wolves' heads.

[rambling]

As for someone else being connected to wolves, I'm sure I remember a passing comment that someone had something with a picture of a wolf with them. I've been thinking about this for days now. I've checked the usual suspects, it's not Faile's knife, nor the mercenaries at Caemlyn who ride behind a banner with a wolf on it, nor Bashere, nor Iturlade....

Maybe someone else will remember

 

Lord Luc had a golden buckle in the shape of a wolf's head on his sword-belt. He also had wolves embroidered on his gauntlets. Then there was Aram, with the wolf's head on the pommel of his sword. Finally, Faile has a dagger with a wolf's head on the hilt. She killed Masema with it.

 

It's none of those, it was a very quick mention and I remember thinking 'not another wolf reference...'

[didymos]

It's none of those, it was a very quick mention and I remember thinking 'not another wolf reference...'

 

I also just realized you'd mentioned Faile's dagger. Can you narrow it down to earlier or later books?

[didymos]

Oh, wait: there's an image of one on Perrin's new hammer.

[rambling]

Oh, wait: there's an image of one on Perrin's new hammer.

 

I can see this getting silly - I've even gone through some of the results on Ideal Seek, you wouldn't believe how many there are.

As a very long shot, do we know what all the FO's sigils are?

[Cazajay]

That's in memory of Hopper,the Hammer is named after what Hopper first said to Perrin in the Wolfdream, hopefully as Hopper died away from Slayer he avoids being made a Shadowbrother[Darkhound]

Consumed also means to eat or to be absorbed/merged makes me shudder that word. The Blight consumed Malkier if you look at it that way, it's not gone or dead, it's changed.

[crondom]

with regard to the 'towers of midnight' reference, i find it strange that the author bothered to put a reference to them in the glossary, substantiating that the phrase DOES refer to the towers in seanchan, and are not a metaphor to represent the forsaken (although admittedly it seems one hell of a coincedence that it's the correct number of broken/standing towers)

 

what do we know about the midnight towers in seanchan? the only tower reference i can remember is the tower of ravens which was a prison, maybe the towers of midnight are ter'angreal, and could 'consume' a person inside them, like the pillars at Rhuidean or the Aes Sedai testing rings...

[nogoodatnames]

Could be Rodel <little wolf, was broken at malader as in the sense his army routed> is beaten by the Seanchan.

[Guest ArcaneGlyph]

I don't know why but when the words first among vermin come to wording I think of Padin Fain.