The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[EvilSocrates]

I still don't know where all this Egwene hate is coming from. I mean, pre-Wise One Training she got on my nerves fairly regularly, but since she has been raised as Amyrlin Seat she actually has displayed that her confidence is actually pretty justified. She goes overboard sometimes, such as her odd confidence that Messana was stabbing people with knives instead of someone else (I personally figured Gray Man myself, and that was pretty close), but overall, she's pretty pimp. I mean, Matt's inability to phrase bargains with the Foxes was a bigger mistake than anything she has done since being captured by Eladia.

 

 

Her embracing the pain and taking over the tower from the inside really made me respect her as a character, and her defense of the Tower from the Seanchan solidified that respect. I think she grew into her ego nicely. I guess I am missing something.

 

RJ's Aes Sedai always annoyed me because they are supposed to be these mystical badasses, but with the exception of Moraine and perhaps Cad, they are numskulls who can shoot fire. Egwene actually has the goods.

[lvemebe]

I still don't know where all this Egwene hate is coming from. I mean, pre-Wise One Training she got on my nerves fairly regularly, but since she has been raised as Amyrlin Seat she actually has displayed that her confidence is actually pretty justified. She goes overboard sometimes, such as her odd confidence that Messana was stabbing people with knives instead of someone else (I personally figured Gray Man myself, and that was pretty close), but overall, she's pretty pimp. I mean, Matt's inability to phrase bargains with the Foxes was a bigger mistake than anything she has done since being captured by Eladia.

 

 

Her embracing the pain and taking over the tower from the inside really made me respect her as a character, and her defense of the Tower from the Seanchan solidified that respect. I think she grew into her ego nicely. I guess I am missing something.

 

RJ's Aes Sedai always annoyed me because they are supposed to be these mystical badasses, but with the exception of Moraine and perhaps Cad, they are numskulls who can shoot fire. Egwene actually has the goods.

 

She used the wise one training to take control of the tower and then she immediately reverts to Aes Sedai mode. She has forgotten everything that helped bring her to power. Egwene hate goes back to the first book.Her meteoric rise to power made her forget who she is. She has always thought she was smarter then everyone else because she was duped by the ba and held captive by the seanchan. This is why I dont understand egwene lovers. Now she is totally in the latrae (whatever) mode. She is a road block. She knows best and egwene lovers back her up no matter what. She is not who the story is about, she is not tavern. She is monopolizing on their affect.

[lvemebe]

I still don't know where all this Egwene hate is coming from. I mean, pre-Wise One Training she got on my nerves fairly regularly, but since she has been raised as Amyrlin Seat she actually has displayed that her confidence is actually pretty justified. She goes overboard sometimes, such as her odd confidence that Messana was stabbing people with knives instead of someone else (I personally figured Gray Man myself, and that was pretty close), but overall, she's pretty pimp. I mean, Matt's inability to phrase bargains with the Foxes was a bigger mistake than anything she has done since being captured by Eladia.

 

 

Her embracing the pain and taking over the tower from the inside really made me respect her as a character, and her defense of the Tower from the Seanchan solidified that respect. I think she grew into her ego nicely. I guess I am missing something.

 

RJ's Aes Sedai always annoyed me because they are supposed to be these mystical badasses, but with the exception of Moraine and perhaps Cad, they are numskulls who can shoot fire. Egwene actually has the goods.

 

She used the wise one training to take control of the tower and then she immediately reverts to Aes Sedai mode. She has forgotten everything that helped bring her to power. Egwene hate goes back to the first book.Her meteoric rise to power made her forget who she is. She has always thought she was smarter then everyone else because she was duped by the ba and held captive by the seanchan. This is why I dont understand egwene lovers. Now she is totally in the latrae (whatever) mode. She is a road block. She knows best and egwene lovers back her up no matter what. She is not who the story is about, she is not tavern. She is monopolizing on their affect. RJ def set up the situation where the women dont believe in the men, and this age is gearing up to be the same situation. The vast majority think rand is wrong, luckily for him he has his Aes Sedai. Wrong know better 3k years ago Wrong again. Sorry girls but this story points it to be true.

[didymos]

RJ's Aes Sedai always annoyed me because they are supposed to be these mystical badasses, but with the exception of Moraine and perhaps Cad, they are numskulls who can shoot fire. Egwene actually has the goods.

 

No, they were never supposed to be that. That's the image they've cultivated, and RJ let us get suckered by it in the early books because the Two Rivers folk bought into it, and it worked because we were stuck almost entirely with Tower outsider POVs. The more Tower insider POVs we got, the more obvious it became that their PR and their reality were two very different things.

[Zentari]

I still don't know where all this Egwene hate is coming from. I mean, pre-Wise One Training she got on my nerves fairly regularly, but since she has been raised as Amyrlin Seat she actually has displayed that her confidence is actually pretty justified. She goes overboard sometimes, such as her odd confidence that Messana was stabbing people with knives instead of someone else (I personally figured Gray Man myself, and that was pretty close), but overall, she's pretty pimp. I mean, Matt's inability to phrase bargains with the Foxes was a bigger mistake than anything she has done since being captured by Eladia.

Mat had been paranoid that the Finn could see through his eyes and hear his thoughts.If that was correct (we don't actually know) then he was right NOT to think of a plan ahead, only for it to come down around his ears later.

[EvilSocrates]

I still don't know where all this Egwene hate is coming from. I mean, pre-Wise One Training she got on my nerves fairly regularly, but since she has been raised as Amyrlin Seat she actually has displayed that her confidence is actually pretty justified. She goes overboard sometimes, such as her odd confidence that Messana was stabbing people with knives instead of someone else (I personally figured Gray Man myself, and that was pretty close), but overall, she's pretty pimp. I mean, Matt's inability to phrase bargains with the Foxes was a bigger mistake than anything she has done since being captured by Eladia.

 

 

Her embracing the pain and taking over the tower from the inside really made me respect her as a character, and her defense of the Tower from the Seanchan solidified that respect. I think she grew into her ego nicely. I guess I am missing something.

 

RJ's Aes Sedai always annoyed me because they are supposed to be these mystical badasses, but with the exception of Moraine and perhaps Cad, they are numskulls who can shoot fire. Egwene actually has the goods.

 

She used the wise one training to take control of the tower and then she immediately reverts to Aes Sedai mode. She has forgotten everything that helped bring her to power. Egwene hate goes back to the first book.Her meteoric rise to power made her forget who she is. She has always thought she was smarter then everyone else because she was duped by the ba and held captive by the seanchan. This is why I dont understand egwene lovers. Now she is totally in the latrae (whatever) mode. She is a road block. She knows best and egwene lovers back her up no matter what. She is not who the story is about, she is not tavern. She is monopolizing on their affect.

 

I think its odd to hold a grudge from book one. I mean, she did USED to be annoying, but she has since come around. Elayne used to be lovable, and is now kind of a jerk (hormones?). Every character in the book constantly thinks they know what is best. Each and every one. And, in fairness, Egwene is actually really good at this. She unified the tower, fought off the Seanchan, and stopped Messana. Sure she's a little arrogant, but so are Rand and Mat and Perrin and Elayne and Faile and really everyone. The point is, she is making good decisions. I think people dislike her just because they hate Aes Sedai. Fair enough I suppose, but at least Egwene is working to improve Aes Sedai and actually deserves the respect the normally foolish Aes Sedai constantly demand.

[CoonDawg]

I still don't know where all this Egwene hate is coming from. I mean, pre-Wise One Training she got on my nerves fairly regularly, but since she has been raised as Amyrlin Seat she actually has displayed that her confidence is actually pretty justified. She goes overboard sometimes, such as her odd confidence that Messana was stabbing people with knives instead of someone else (I personally figured Gray Man myself, and that was pretty close), but overall, she's pretty pimp. I mean, Matt's inability to phrase bargains with the Foxes was a bigger mistake than anything she has done since being captured by Eladia.

 

 

Her embracing the pain and taking over the tower from the inside really made me respect her as a character, and her defense of the Tower from the Seanchan solidified that respect. I think she grew into her ego nicely. I guess I am missing something.

 

RJ's Aes Sedai always annoyed me because they are supposed to be these mystical badasses, but with the exception of Moraine and perhaps Cad, they are numskulls who can shoot fire. Egwene actually has the goods.

 

She used the wise one training to take control of the tower and then she immediately reverts to Aes Sedai mode. She has forgotten everything that helped bring her to power. Egwene hate goes back to the first book.Her meteoric rise to power made her forget who she is. She has always thought she was smarter then everyone else because she was duped by the ba and held captive by the seanchan. This is why I dont understand egwene lovers. Now she is totally in the latrae (whatever) mode. She is a road block. She knows best and egwene lovers back her up no matter what. She is not who the story is about, she is not tavern. She is monopolizing on their affect.

 

I think its odd to hold a grudge from book one. I mean, she did USED to be annoying, but she has since come around. Elayne used to be lovable, and is now kind of a jerk (hormones?). Every character in the book constantly thinks they know what is best. Each and every one. And, in fairness, Egwene is actually really good at this. She unified the tower, fought off the Seanchan, and stopped Messana. Sure she's a little arrogant, but so are Rand and Mat and Perrin and Elayne and Faile and really everyone. The point is, she is making good decisions. I think people dislike her just because they hate Aes Sedai. Fair enough I suppose, but at least Egwene is working to improve Aes Sedai and actually deserves the respect the normally foolish Aes Sedai constantly demand.

 

I'll be blatantly honest, I'm on the Egwene hate wagon. The only thing (well, I have to admit, Perrin's arc was getting on my nerves toward the end) I hated about WoT was that Egwene got about the same amount of screen-time as Rand over the average of the series (and now she has the vast majority over the last few). She was always an arrogant and manipulative one, from the very beginning. You might say that her decisions have improved, and that she has a right to be egotistic, but not really. Gawyn just proved that, at least once. (maybe twice. Who's to say that the Bloodknife didn't have the capability to escape the trap Egwene set for him the first time?)

 

I wouldn't have minded her if she hadn't fallen into the exact same mentality as the rest of the Aes Sedai. Rand needs to be "guided"? Big words coming from a girl who hadn't even MET an Aes Sedai since, what, 2 years ago? Good to know that your loyalty lies in a social clique* that, since meeting you, has beaten you, used you, tried to kill you, and shown zero affection towards you whatsoever, instead of your friends and family that you've known for 18 years. Basically, she said "I want to be an Aes Sedai!" Why? You had the Wise Ones and the Kin that could have taught you anything you really wanted to know, and you still want in the club? Repeatedly she's talked about how the White Tower is her "family", but in what way do you view them as family? Sure are accepting towards a point of view that doesn't even make sense.

 

Nynaeve seems to be the only one of all of them that actually cares about the rest of the world. SHE isn't the one plotting for the White Tower to rise from the ashes of Tarmon Gaidon as the strongest authority on the western continent. She just wants the world to live to see Fall, which is something that takes a back seat in Egwene's mind, right behind her tyrannical rule and "guiding".

 

I suppose the reason people hate Egwene isn't because she's wrong or evil or anything like that. After all, if you look at any villain in any story (Vader, Sauron, Lex Luthor, Voldemort, etc.), you'll notice they're liked, but that's because you can understand how they think and they make a good character. The reason people hate Egwene is because her position makes absolutely no logical or emotional sense to the average human. I don't know if RJ intended her to be that way, or actually saw her as a viable character. But as I read the book, it seems to be written in such a way that I'm actually supposed to sympathize with her. In actuality, every time I read a new chapter about her, I pray she dies so I can stop reading about her and go back to enjoying WoT.

 

*Is the White Tower anything more than a Clique? They tell who and who can't be "cool" (channelers), then disable any who won't join the group. Then they walk around, exerting their powers on others so they see as they do, and then make plans in a closet with a signed taped to it that reads "Private club meeting. Keep out! No boys allowed!" and make laughable plans to make the world a better place. The White Tower could be considered an Axis of Evil, if they ever posed a threat (Before Rand destroyed his imba Ter'Angreal, and perhaps even without it in True Power Jesus-Mode, he could have leveled the White Tower 100 times over, as could a handful of Asha'Man). I think, however, over the last book, they will be put in their place by Nynaeve/Rand/Seanchan and learn to start using their brains.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Most people orient their view of the series around Rand. They like people who treat Rand well and dislike those who don't. Egwene treats him like crap, despite having ample reason not to (this is the man she thought she was going to marry, after all), and so many people dislike her.

 

There are other reasons, but that's the heart of it.

[EvilSocrates]

I think that is an insightful point, AuldGoldBeard, but those people should bear in mind that they have the benefit of seeing Rand's point of view. It's not like Mat has a more favorable view of Rand than Egwene does. He feels sorry for the guy, but he wouldn't trust him with anything, let alone the fate of the world, were it up to him. And, in fact, Rand was crazy. From all appearances, he DID need to be controlled and stopped--or at least counseled by non crazy people. He almost unmade creation because of his lunacy, and he destroyed many of the nations of the world by conquering and ignoring them. We the readers know that he suddenly went from "Madman who might unmake you with a thought for looking at him wrong" to Kung-Fu-Action Jesus because he got THE WIIIISSSDOOOM OOOOOFFFF THE AAAAAAGEEEEES on Dragonmount, but from an outsider's perspect he just suddenly changed personality, and seems no less crazy, just nicer. We trust him because he is protagonist, other people see him as someone who can take on the Dark One, but is clearly the lesser of two evils and needs to be managed for damage control purposes.

 

I'm the first to think that the Tower is full of self-important fools, but I think Egwene has a point that a strong and unified Tar Valon might be handy in TG (perhaps essential). She seems as annoyed with the Aes Sedai politicking as we are (ok, well almost!). That's why she thinks they need to learn leadership skills from the Wise Ones, because they are basically just skilled channelers who bicker too much to actually do good. She has a bold new version for returning the glory of the Aes Sedai and stop them from being bickering children. The main disconnect between she and I is that she seems to think Aes Sedai were once this respectable and powerful force for good, and she wants to return to that former glory. Myself, I think they were probably always idiots, but neither of us were there. Either way, she isn't valuing the Tower over the world, she clearly thinks that the Tower will need to be at the forefront of the Last Battle if the Light wants to stand a chance. Just as Elayne thinks that Andor and Cairhien need to be (hence the whole conscription program she [Elayne] immediately starts. They might both be wrong, but I think it is overly simplistic to say that they only care for their respective clubs and not the world.

 

Egwene (perhaps not so much Elayne, but I might just be mad at her because I, like Mat, don't like her noble sense of entitlement and would have hammered her in the face were I Perrin) might be right also. Post Egwene, the Aes Sedai will be MUCH more effective in pitching in the the Last Battle, and they will likely be one of the most powerful forces of the Light. Also, Egwene manages to unite the forces of the light through her influence. Granted, she is only doing so because Rand is cleverly tricking her into it by telling her his plan, which she will obviously oppose, but Eladia sure as shooting wasn't going to get that done.

 

I can somewhat see where people are coming from, because she always was a know-it-all who kinda looked down on Rand despite the fact that he was blowing up Forsaken and conquering the world before he started to lose it. I just think she, thanks to the Wise Ones and her new responsibilities, became such a BAMF that her snootiness is less annoying, because she actually DOES know her business now and is doing really important work.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Mat had been paranoid that the Finn could see through his eyes and hear his thoughts.If that was correct (we don't actually know) then he was right NOT to think of a plan ahead, only for it to come down around his ears later.

 

Seeing it spelled out that way, I'm stuck with an image of a guy wearing a tin foil hat so the Aliens on the mother ship can't control his thoughts and actions. That's actually not too different from how Mat is behaving, either.

 

I mean, why does he have all the Finn hate? As long as he doesn't go back there, the Finns can't hurt him and whatever they might learn via him harms nobody. Mat is a gambler, he should know you never play the other guy's game. Especially if you don't know the rules. He did, got taken and he's being a very sore loser about it all.

[Demon_AS]

 

Mat had been paranoid that the Finn could see through his eyes and hear his thoughts.If that was correct (we don't actually know) then he was right NOT to think of a plan ahead, only for it to come down around his ears later.

 

Seeing it spelled out that way, I'm stuck with an image of a guy wearing a tin foil hat so the Aliens on the mother ship can't control his thoughts and actions. That's actually not too different from how Mat is behaving, either.

 

I mean, why does he have all the Finn hate? As long as he doesn't go back there, the Finns can't hurt him and whatever they might learn via him harms nobody. Mat is a gambler, he should know you never play the other guy's game. Especially if you don't know the rules. He did, got taken and he's being a very sore loser about it all.

In fairness, Mat's a country boy who was - literally - hung by the FinnFolk. I don't think his reaction to that is incomprehensible... his expectation was quick and easy answers, but all he got was cryptic non-answers, a couple of toys and exactly one life less than what he had going into Finnland.

 

And I think you're right about the sore-loser bit. This is Matrim Cauthon we're talking about here. The guy that's used to winning every toss of the dice.

[Kahlika]

 

Mat had been paranoid that the Finn could see through his eyes and hear his thoughts.If that was correct (we don't actually know) then he was right NOT to think of a plan ahead, only for it to come down around his ears later.

 

Seeing it spelled out that way, I'm stuck with an image of a guy wearing a tin foil hat so the Aliens on the mother ship can't control his thoughts and actions. That's actually not too different from how Mat is behaving, either.

 

I mean, why does he have all the Finn hate? As long as he doesn't go back there, the Finns can't hurt him and whatever they might learn via him harms nobody. Mat is a gambler, he should know you never play the other guy's game. Especially if you don't know the rules. He did, got taken and he's being a very sore loser about it all.

 

Going out on a limb here, but do you think all the Finn hate (prior to the ToM encounter with them) might have something to do with them messing with his mind and then hanging him?

 

Can't say I'd be overjoyed about that, or want a continuing connection with anyone who did that to me.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Mat had been paranoid that the Finn could see through his eyes and hear his thoughts.If that was correct (we don't actually know) then he was right NOT to think of a plan ahead, only for it to come down around his ears later.

 

Seeing it spelled out that way, I'm stuck with an image of a guy wearing a tin foil hat so the Aliens on the mother ship can't control his thoughts and actions. That's actually not too different from how Mat is behaving, either.

 

I mean, why does he have all the Finn hate? As long as he doesn't go back there, the Finns can't hurt him and whatever they might learn via him harms nobody. Mat is a gambler, he should know you never play the other guy's game. Especially if you don't know the rules. He did, got taken and he's being a very sore loser about it all.

 

Going out on a limb here, but do you think all the Finn hate (prior to the ToM encounter with them) might have something to do with them messing with his mind and then hanging him?

 

Can't say I'd be overjoyed about that, or want a continuing connection with anyone who did that to me.

 

I wouldn't be thrilled about that either. In fact it'd probably give me the creepy-crawlies. But, I'm not Odin. And, I'm not much of a gambler, either, but I do know that you either play the game of the game plays you. Until Mat mans up, he's going to continue being played.

[Jnai]

4) I really, really, really hate the Seanchan, especially after Avi's trip through the future, even if that's not the real future. They are the most insufferably idiotic culture in the series, and that's saying a lot, considering RJ went out of his way to make them ALL insufferable. Their obsession with leashing all channelers needs to be put to a forcible, painful, culture-shocking end, and if that doesn't happen by the end of the series, I'm going to really pissed. If the knowledge that the empress herself can channel isn't used to give the Seanchan a giant UP YOURS, a great opportunity will have been wasted. At this point, if Rand decided to just take the idiot Fortuona and start killing his way down the list until he got someone who agreed to put an end to it, I'd be mightly pleased. If the Seanchan culture, which I despise, ends up winning in the end, after the Last Battle, I'll never recommend this series to anyone again.

 

Why? The Seanchan are very different than the culture we've spent the most time with in Randland, but fundamentally the Seanchan aren't much better or worse.

 

In Randland, women with power are, once discovered by the White Tower, essentially taken from their families and trained in this Illuminati-like society that attempts to control the entire world. Aes Sedai are more powerful than Kings and Queens. The power structure in the tower is what'd you expect from third grade bullies - more powerful is better. And, there's an entire section of them that scours the land for any male channelers, removing their power.

 

Of course, we know some of them, like Moiraine and Siuan, and we know some of their intentions, which happen to be good, so we sympathize with them. And, we happen to stumble upon the White Tower in a period where, because of Rand and internal divisions, their influence is muted. But imagine Elaida as Amyrlin unchecked by the greater problems in society and you'd have the White Tower that almost all of the inhabitants of Randland hate. Few people in the culture trust the "Witches of Tar Valon". They're seen by much of Randland (rightly or wrongly) as a menacing force that controls and manipulates in order to satisfy mysterious ends.

 

Contrast that with the Seanchan: Women who can channel in their culture are leashed to be used as military weapons or industrial tools. The societal power structure is undamaged by channeling. There is no mysterious tower that controls the land. It seems horrific to us, because we've seen free characters like Egwene get leashed and because we've learned about channeling through Moiraine as a wonderful mystery of awesome power that can be used as a force of good. But, let's face it, the people of Seanchan certainly don't seem to want any different (there's Seanchan ex-Damane who still beg to be re-leashed).

 

I think the reason the Seanchan seem so vile is because they have exactly the opposite cultural values with respect to the One Power as does the White Tower, and we've learned to love the White Tower (at least the good version!) as portrayed by Moiraine and Egwene. But I don't really know that the White Tower solution, which is controlling all kingdoms and being mysterious manipulators, is really any better in the end.

 

 

I mean, my heart did break reading those Aviendha chapters, but when you think about it really, if you were to read those chapters chronologically rather than in the emotionally draining way they were presented: The Aiel picked a fight with the Seanchan, who are a much more powerful, ruthless, and organized military force. Then, the Aiel decided to escalate the situation, dragging the rest of the peaceful world into the fight by deception and lies. Then, the Aiel, completely broken, decided to continue fighting. And then, they were beaten soundly into the ground.

 

If this happens to the Aiel, it sounds like it will be the fault of one obsessively militaristic and stupid society: the Aiel. I'm hoping it doesn't happen, but it's hard to blame the Seanchan for this one.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I thought it was pretty clear from the context that the Aiel were to blame for dragging the world into a pointless war over principles against the Seanchan.

Also, only the Damane can channel. The sul'dam have the potential to learn, true, but they can't channel. There's a difference, just as I choose not to use my ability to smash windshields as I walk home at night.

 

Yeah, I should have added a "learn to" in the sentence about Tuon and channeling. Still, given the Seanchan attitude toward channelers, learning that they are being led by one who can learn to channel, and that every single one of the women holding the other end of the leash can as well, ought to shake the very foundations of the Empire, to loosely quote something from somewhere. Your windshield analogy would only apply if only a certain subset of humanity was capable of smashing windshields.

 

The Seanchan believe channelers are essentially unchained monsters, so their attitude towards those who can learn to channel will be interesting to see further explored. On the one hand, more channelers = more damane = more military might. But who would hold the leashes? The damane are animals, so this knowledge should totally screw with the Seanchan mindset and traditions. I hope it doesn't just get swept under the rug.

 

From Avi's future show, we see the Aiel cause their own downfall, one step at a time, and even drag the other nations down with them, but, really, they are fighting for (some of) the right reasons. They even mention that it seemed like they had reached an understanding with the old empress, but the new empress was different. The Seanchan believe in institutionalized slavery, which they impose on everyone they can, taking anyone who can channel and leashing them. That's reason enough for their civilization to be condemned. I completely disagree with the notion that the Aiel (and by definition, everyone else) should have simply given up and let the Seanchan keep their Wise Ones. But that's my personal beliefs talking.

 

And what's with none of the major characters apparently surviving in her future visions? How exactly did all of these powerful channelers, who really ought to live several hundred years, even with the Oaths, manage to get themselves so thoroughly killed? Rand I can understand, but we are specifically told that Andor had been nice and safe. Surely Elayne should still have been on the throne. I guess it doesn't matter, since it was just (hopefully) a possible future, but still...

 

 

 

I find the Seanchan to be a more civilized and promising future for human society than what we've seen in Randland so far. Considering the White Tower does nothing but manipulate, sabotage and interfere with individual nations by no other virtue than being able to channel I have trouble sympathizing with them as well. In fact in nigh every society channelers are elevated to a position of power that is questionable.

 

At least with the Seanchan there is no manipulation or scheming order that seeks to destabilize others for personal gain. Instead there is one stable Empire that serves it's subjects for the greater good. As we always see Rand commenting on how happy the people seemed under Seanchan occupation, since the Seanchan went about repairing and bringing order back with an efficiency that he himself could never hope to achieve.

[CoonDawg]

I find the Seanchan to be a more civilized and promising future for human society than what we've seen in Randland so far. Considering the White Tower does nothing but manipulate, sabotage and interfere with individual nations by no other virtue than being able to channel I have trouble sympathizing with them as well. In fact in nigh every society channelers are elevated to a position of power that is questionable.

 

At least with the Seanchan there is no manipulation or scheming order that seeks to destabilize others for personal gain. Instead there is one stable Empire that serves it's subjects for the greater good. As we always see Rand commenting on how happy the people seemed under Seanchan occupation, since the Seanchan went about repairing and bringing order back with an efficiency that he himself could never hope to achieve.

 

This is what I've never really understood. Rand says they're happy, but from everything else we've seen, they're a highly barbaric and brutal culture. Not just the Damane. If it were just for that, I'd say just because they have one flaw doesn't mean they're evil (U.S. had slavery for hundreds of years but I've never seen anyone call Washington "evil"). However, their political games, the way they assassinate one another for sport, and the way they brutally conquer states tells me that they're far from a respectable nation.

 

So I'm confused as to where this is going to go. I find it incredibly hard to believe the Seanchan will get along with Randland, even if they stopped using Damane. Aviendha's dream foretold this: They're still trespassing, aren't they?

[EvilSocrates]

I find the Seanchan to be a more civilized and promising future for human society than what we've seen in Randland so far. Considering the White Tower does nothing but manipulate, sabotage and interfere with individual nations by no other virtue than being able to channel I have trouble sympathizing with them as well. In fact in nigh every society channelers are elevated to a position of power that is questionable.

 

At least with the Seanchan there is no manipulation or scheming order that seeks to destabilize others for personal gain. Instead there is one stable Empire that serves it's subjects for the greater good. As we always see Rand commenting on how happy the people seemed under Seanchan occupation, since the Seanchan went about repairing and bringing order back with an efficiency that he himself could never hope to achieve.

 

This is what I've never really understood. Rand says they're happy, but from everything else we've seen, they're a highly barbaric and brutal culture. Not just the Damane. If it were just for that, I'd say just because they have one flaw doesn't mean they're evil (U.S. had slavery for hundreds of years but I've never seen anyone call Washington "evil"). However, their political games, the way they assassinate one another for sport, and the way they brutally conquer states tells me that they're far from a respectable nation.

 

So I'm confused as to where this is going to go. I find it incredibly hard to believe the Seanchan will get along with Randland, even if they stopped using Damane. Aviendha's dream foretold this: They're still trespassing, aren't they?

 

You are thinking like a Noble. Court politics in the Seanchan are dangerous, certainly. However, Rand's insight is that most people are just peasants. They don't have to worry about trying to gain power and influence without stepping too far and getting assassinated. From their perspective, Seanchan rule just means that the tax man changes uniform. Both Randland nobles and the Blood rule by force, but the Seanchan do a better job of it by and large, and they use their power to make the peasants better off than their Randland counterparts.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I find the Seanchan to be a more civilized and promising future for human society than what we've seen in Randland so far. Considering the White Tower does nothing but manipulate, sabotage and interfere with individual nations by no other virtue than being able to channel I have trouble sympathizing with them as well. In fact in nigh every society channelers are elevated to a position of power that is questionable.

 

At least with the Seanchan there is no manipulation or scheming order that seeks to destabilize others for personal gain. Instead there is one stable Empire that serves it's subjects for the greater good. As we always see Rand commenting on how happy the people seemed under Seanchan occupation, since the Seanchan went about repairing and bringing order back with an efficiency that he himself could never hope to achieve.

 

This is what I've never really understood. Rand says they're happy, but from everything else we've seen, they're a highly barbaric and brutal culture. Not just the Damane. If it were just for that, I'd say just because they have one flaw doesn't mean they're evil (U.S. had slavery for hundreds of years but I've never seen anyone call Washington "evil"). However, their political games, the way they assassinate one another for sport, and the way they brutally conquer states tells me that they're far from a respectable nation.

 

So I'm confused as to where this is going to go. I find it incredibly hard to believe the Seanchan will get along with Randland, even if they stopped using Damane. Aviendha's dream foretold this: They're still trespassing, aren't they?

 

 

Life as a noble might be worse in Seanchan society. But for a common worker or peasant life is much better than it is in nearly any Randland nation so far as I can tell. The Seanchan despite all their faults seem to actually put the welfare of the commoners on a higher pedestal than other societies.

 

Rand just sees the farmers and workers who give off the impression of being much happier under Seanchan rule than other rule. The Seanchan bring safety, order and prosperity to their lives. A common man wants nothing more than a safe world to raise his family in. The main people bitching about the Seanchan are arrogant nobles, warlords and channelers.

[mlovelock]

The plot resolve that I didn't like the most for me was Berelain explaining how she felt about Perrin and her reason for persuing him to Faile - this didn't seem to match up with previous books and her rationale for taking him into her tent when Faile was captured seemed too simple too. It felt like it was just a plot line that needed to be finished with so it was really rushed (which i can understand as there are so many to tie up). Anyway it seemed this clever, complicated women was reduced to simple chasing to be near the dragon reborn which seemed really lame - she was already close to him after running Cairhein etc.

 

I did predict that she would end up falling for Galad - I think there were hints of this in Min's viewings, so it was good to see that happen.

[Cornelia]

Life as a noble might be worse in Seanchan society. But for a common worker or peasant life is much better than it is in nearly any Randland nation so far as I can tell. The Seanchan despite all their faults seem to actually put the welfare of the commoners on a higher pedestal than other societies.

 

Rand just sees the farmers and workers who give off the impression of being much happier under Seanchan rule than other rule. The Seanchan bring safety, order and prosperity to their lives. A common man wants nothing more than a safe world to raise his family in. The main people bitching about the Seanchan are arrogant nobles, warlords and channelers.

 

 

Oh yes. But what is the price for safety, oder and prosperity? I recommend a look at modern Russia these days. As long as you keep their rules and behave like a good little slave and don´t voice opinions contrary to the ruling class, you are safe. As long as you don´t try to `overstep your boundaries´, let´s say try to get into a higher position in their system. Chodorkowskij, anyone? And what would happen if your daughter or son is found out to have, erm, certain abilities? Would you like to see your son killed like some kind of dangerous beast, or your daughter leashed worse than a dog? Even a dog is allowed to run free from time to time. Living as a damane is worse than slavery, worse than living as a dog. Because dogs would still be treated with kindness. A damane doesn´t even get that. Perhaps a little condescending patting on the head.... "Good girl!". I very nearly puked when I read that.

 

The seanchan can take that kind of order and prosperity and stuff it where the sun doesn´t shine!

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Life as a noble might be worse in Seanchan society. But for a common worker or peasant life is much better than it is in nearly any Randland nation so far as I can tell. The Seanchan despite all their faults seem to actually put the welfare of the commoners on a higher pedestal than other societies.

 

Rand just sees the farmers and workers who give off the impression of being much happier under Seanchan rule than other rule. The Seanchan bring safety, order and prosperity to their lives. A common man wants nothing more than a safe world to raise his family in. The main people bitching about the Seanchan are arrogant nobles, warlords and channelers.

 

 

Oh yes. But what is the price for safety, oder and prosperity? I recommend a look at modern Russia these days. As long as you keep their rules and behave like a good little slave and don´t voice opinions contrary to the ruling class, you are safe. As long as you don´t try to `overstep your boundaries´, let´s say try to get into a higher position in their system. Chodorkowskij, anyone? And what would happen if your daughter or son is found out to have, erm, certain abilities? Would you like to see your son killed like some kind of dangerous beast, or your daughter leashed worse than a dog? Even a dog is allowed to run free from time to time. Living as a damane is worse than slavery, worse than living as a dog. Because dogs would still be treated with kindness. A damane doesn´t even get that. Perhaps a little condescending patting on the head.... "Good girl!". I very nearly puked when I read that.

 

The seanchan can take that kind of order and prosperity and stuff it where the sun doesn´t shine!

 

That's a very spoiled outlook on life. Until you actually had to suffer constant warfare, civil war, famines and anarchy it's hard to not understand why there is such an affectionate response towards Seanchan "occupation." The Seanchan actually enforce laws, effectively fight crime, repair wartorn regions, feed refugees and in general better the lot of the individuals most parties in Randland simply see as pawns for their own ego, rule or armies.

 

I fully understand why Rand saw the inhabitants of Ebou Dar looking happy. For them the Seanchan were the best thing to have happened to their city since a long time.

 

What I don't understand though. You seem to be morally outraged at the Seanchan and harp on about social justice. Yet how can you on the other hand see the rule of nobles and Aes Sedai through which common people seem to be nothing more than fodder and pawns as more enlightened than Seanchan rule? It's also no surprise that the Seanchan are the most technologically advanced people.

[Cornelia]

That's a very spoiled outlook on life. Until you actually had to suffer constant warfare, civil war, famines and anarchy it's hard to not understand why there is such an affectionate response towards Seanchan "occupation." The Seanchan actually enforce laws, effectively fight crime, repair wartorn regions, feed refugees and in general better the lot of the individuals most parties in Randland simply see as pawns for their own ego, rule or armies.

 

I fully understand why Rand saw the inhabitants of Ebou Dar looking happy. For them the Seanchan were the best thing to have happened to their city since a long time.

 

What I don't understand though. You seem to be morally outraged at the Seanchan and harp on about social justice. Yet how can you on the other hand see the rule of nobles and Aes Sedai through which common people seem to be nothing more than fodder and pawns as more enlightened than Seanchan rule? It's also no surprise that the Seanchan are the most technologically advanced people.

 

Maybe people coming from regions with constant warfare are happy to live under a Seanchan rule. But I don´t see that kind of response from the people of Andor, or let´s say the people of the Two Rivers. Or the Borderlanders. And what about you personally? Would YOU like to live under a Seanchan rule? Get yourself killed for looking into the eyes of someone with a higher standing than you? Yes, I´m harping about social justice. It´s important. Cultures that don´t have it are dealing with lots of riots, assassinations and groups plotting against the ruling class. Because nobody likes to be treated like that. And that´s exactly the thing the Seanchan are always fighting in their homeland. Their solution is constant warfare. Sorry, I like the Randland solutions better.

 

The Aes Sedai are not flawless, far from that. But they are learning from their mistakes and that will make a big difference in the future. And there still are the three oaths. There is healing, there are more channelers than just the Aes Sedai, and almost all are non-violent (OK, perhaps the windfinders and the Asha´man from the Black Tower are not the nicest persons ever). Of course they separated themselves from the people for a long time. But that also had a lot to do with the distrust for channelers still stemming from all the things that happened during the Breaking. There is change. Technological advance? What has it gained us?

 

I don´t see the Seanchan and especially Tuon learning. Tuon is really astonished that Beslan doesn´t make any moves to have her assassinated, as a Seanchan would try all the time. Not such a nice view regarding Seanchan nobles, isn´t it? That´s the real Seanchan society. She thinks watching damane being broken is soothing. She speaks to others below her station just through a third person. Nobody is allowed to look into her eyes. It seems she didn´t learn too much from travelling with Mat.

 

I wonder what will happen if the Song the Tuatha´an are searching for is rediscovered. It´s more than likely that Rand will sing it at some point. "Let the Lord of the morning sing to the land..." And then? The Seanchan who still have a big problem accepting healing by an Aes Sedai (but no problem with killing done by damane) walking in a line with damane seed-singing? (See Rhuidean viewings of Rand) Someone they are not used to see as human? How long will that pretense hold up?

 

The whole Seanchan civilization is highly technical, but very much backward in terms of social development. Most of the people in Randland would never behave to their kings the way it is done among the Seanchans. They still have much to learn, and only time will tell.

[WhiteJoker]

The plot resolve that I didn't like the most for me was Berelain explaining how she felt about Perrin and her reason for persuing him to Faile - this didn't seem to match up with previous books and her rationale for taking him into her tent when Faile was captured seemed too simple too. It felt like it was just a plot line that needed to be finished with so it was really rushed (which i can understand as there are so many to tie up). Anyway it seemed this clever, complicated women was reduced to simple chasing to be near the dragon reborn which seemed really lame - she was already close to him after running Cairhein etc.

 

I did predict that she would end up falling for Galad - I think there were hints of this in Min's viewings, so it was good to see that happen.

Mmm, that did feel off a bit to me as well. However, I think it's something that also needs to be combined with Alliandre comments about when she's observing Faile and Berelain. Berelain is very much of the world of nobles and Daes Dae'mar and the world is, in her eyes, framed entirely in that context. I don't think she really believes what she told Faile, it was merely how she rationalized her affection for him, her decision to chase Perrin, and after living in that world for so long, in having to view relationships and the merest action as a political maneuver, it's how she thought she thought of it. That's not a typo. Everything has to be about political power, about making Mayene stronger, and to Berelain, who was fond of Perrin, who was but a simple blacksmith, she had to find reason to like him that would satisfy her duty. I highly doubt any of that was a conscious thought or decision but rather a subconscious and probably reflexive action.

 

Personally, I had more issue with the rather large amount of slapstick humor that magically appeared, mostly centered around Mat. The ridiculous bit where he made up multiple pages of backstory for the raid on Trustair, all of the bits where Talemanes was far too blatantly laughing at Mat, and his sudden fascination with lace and that pink scarf seemed far too out of place. I enjoyed it, the moments of brevity, but Mat as a humorous character always worked better when he wasn't so blatantly bizarre and more... well, like when he and Perrin met up again. A snarky kind of humor rather then an over the top absurdity kind.

 

I will agree with the OP's stance that the characters did change a lot, in seemingly magical ways, since BS took over. Suian and Gareth were far too... openly affectionate with one another, Nynaeve had gotten a bit too reasonable, etc. The reasonable nature of their conversations with one another though could often be forgiven if you factored in the length of time between when they last saw one another and the amount of stuff that they've gone through since then. Elayne's and Mat's reunion felt... okay, it felt a slight bit forced, but not too much considering both had gone through quite a bit since they had last met. I think I was willing to forgive a fair bit of that reasonable-ness since much of it occurred between characters who hadn't seen one another in quite a long time, and so their expectations of one another didn't match what they encountered. Another matter is that as annoying and frustrating as they were, we did see definite steps that they had all been maturing and overcoming many of the things which they had rallied against so hard previously.

 

I still don't like how Perrin's issues with leadership was resolved though. Not liking if somebody aside from him led? Really? REALLY? I know there was more to it then that but that stance seemed to hold far too much weight and relevance to his turnabout.

[FarShainMael]

Which is all well and good, but I'm an atheist so I just have to live with the reality. Merde.

 

Least we can enjoy reality, though instead of worrying about sins and stuff. 

 

I haven't worried about sinning in the Biblical sense for a long long time. It actually sort of makes me angry when I find out that someone is religious; Brandon has lost even more cool points, there. I mean, you know, to each their own and all, but if he tries turning WoT into some big Mormon allegory I'm going to be really pissed, In the Biblical sense. There were actually a couple of lines in ToM that made me wonder if BS was a god person. I don't know if RJ was or not.

 

So you haven't worried about murder, theft, and lying? These are all sins in the Biblical sense - check the Ten Commandments.

 

It doesn't make me angry when I find out that someone isn't religious; that's up to them. It does make me angry when I find out that they don't bother to have an accurate idea of what religion involves, but still criticise it.

[Swithin]

It's probably bad form to step in here, but might I suggest we let this one go? Messiest did apologize for stepping over the line in terms of loaded language. I agree the comments were problematic, but they were originally motivated by a concern for the actual writing of the rest of WoT, and the topic has been dropped.

 

FarShainMael, I can understand your frustration, but (please trust me here) suggesting that a non-religious person doesn't care about "murder, theft, and lying" because of their personal beliefs is not going to keep the peace. The issue of whether Brandon's faith will enter his writing to color his characterizations and narrative in WoT has been raised (and it's a valid question,) addressed, and was put to bed several pages ago. Let's keep talking about the writing.

 

[edit:] For the record, in public statements RJ made it clear that he was quite religious, but other than being the basis of his moral framework he did not intend to insert any particulars of his faith into the WoT. I haven't heard Brandon talk about it, but I assume he feels the same way. It's true that his voice is slightly different than RJs, and I also noticed that he maybe has a touch more respect for the concepts of sovereignty and authority in his descriptions and associations, but I also believe that he's done a good job maintaining the cosmological 'feel' of tWoT. The effect is just what happens when you put a different human being behind the keyboard (and I think Hariett chose a very competent one.)