The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[CoonDawg]

Terry Goodkind almost got it!? Well, we all know what would happen the moment the Seanchan took over the White Tower. We also know what Gawyn would have done to Egwene while she was sleeping.

 

I really need to finish that series...

[Zefram]

I don't think he's taken liberty with it at all. Pretty much every 'Light side' characters arc is about their personal growth and increasing maturity mirroring, if not being directly responsible for the action side of it.

 

Take some of them in TGS/TOM:

Mat - the over trying first couple of TGS chapters aside is Mat still being Mat. Still drinks, gambles, wants to avoid fights, but will always do what's required. Now just uses the excuse of looking for others to perve on other women.

Egwene - regressed in TOM. Not the opposition to Rand. The whole embracing the worst of the Aes Sedai to do it. Manipulative, dismissive of men in authority, the Aes Sedai must be top of the tree, etc. Anything but reasonable and willing to listen to others.

Elayne - stupid as ever. 'I'm safe! Min said so!'. The WOT doesn't need to be the Sword of Truth with rapes everywhere, but it'd have been an incredibly powerful scene if Mellar dragged her off and Birgitte/Mat rescue her after he'd assaulted Elayne.

Nynaeve - she's been on a progression since ACOS at least. And reached it in KOD. She's just continued as one of the bare handful Aes Sedai out of a thousand you can respect as a person. She didn't change in TGS/TOM I think.

 

As for Rand, Perrin and Faile - their plot lines in TGS/TOM were as much, if not more, about who they become as what they did. And that would have been RJ's outline.

 

The thing Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is characters language. I can accept him not trying to mimic RJ, in the sense of pages of silk washing, or Elayne having a bath (all I can say on these, is this better be redeemed by them picking a damn fine looking actress and not censor the Elayne bath scenes in any tv-series / movie!), but using out of character words/phrases, this I don't like. Especially 20th/21st century terms. I can see Brandon may find it easier/quicker to write the story with these terms initially, so he's not second guessing himself and getting out of 'the groove', but they shouldn't make it past editing for the final cut.

 

I feel that not that he had taken liberty with the material as he had done somewhat rush job and some scenes while powerful, their impact is diluted because they are at the wrong point in the story.

 

For Rand, I feel that Brandon done a bit of a rush job on his transformation from half-crazed maniac on dark side (in tGS) to St. Buddha Rand in (ToM). At tGS, the description of Rand falling into darkness was far more believable and realistic. It felt like a logical progression of combining of all his travails and tribulations from previous books combined with Semirhage episode and total breakdwon to timely and great epiphany on Dragonmount at the end. But, at ToM not only he becomes enlightened all of sudden and all full of light and warmth and such plus gains tremendous wisdom, he does it instantly. However awesome I feel his realization at Dragonmount scene was, it wasn’t enough to warrant such drastic transformation. What would have been a better progression of it would be him coming back to Min, Cadsuane and Tam and having a good cry and little breakdown (good one) BEFORE starting to shine light and warmth all around and facing Egwene. I felt that the best Rand as Dragon Reborn was when he stopped being a shepherd boy at the end of Dragon Reborn till the time he started having anger issues somewhere between Moiraine’s “death” and his kidnapping by Elaida’s Aes Sedai. But in ToM, he is too unrealistic on good side for me.

Same thing for Gawyn, first we meet him he is likeable and “nice” guy prince, not perfect or rigid like Galad and who actually likes Rand and seems to approve of him going for Elayne’s affections. Which made it a lot more shocking and realistic the change to him being consumed with anger toward Rand to trying to get revenge for his mother, to the point where he actively refused to believe Egwene protestation of Rand’s innocence and within next 6 books becoming more cold and obsessive and trusting more dubious Aes Sedai (like Galina, Katarina, etc) than his love - Egwene. I actually felt (at that point in time before tGS) that Min’s prophecy regarding him and Egwene would be having him choose between Elaida and Egwene and actually thinking about whether or not save Egwene’s life which makes a pretty good point about Gawyn’s character at that time. Suddenly within 1 book (ToM), his character is completely changed. He immediately believes Elayne and lets go of his obsession toward Rand (after disbelieving Siuan, Min and Egwene before and thats before meeting Morgase alive). He is sympathetic and nice guy again unfairly being criticized by Egwene as being annoying. Again, would have been better impact if he remained his obsessive and angry self till the moment he met Morgase and then having his moment of revelation and transformation.

Also his rehabilitation is done as a tradeoff on bad side with Egwene, who is being changed as you say to classic Aes Sedai-self, manipulative, self-righteous to the point of obstinacy, controlling and cold (stereotyping classic woman as boss "dragon lady" image)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Perhaps Sanderson is growing the characters too quickly.

 

But, that's only because Jordan grew them too slowly or not at all.

[CoonDawg]

This is probably beating a dead horse, but yes, all this rushing at the end is because Jordan never intended the story to end in 12 books. After Knife of Dreams, how many of us thought "Oh sure, this could be finished in 1 book"? It was never going to happen. I understand that he never intended to get ill, and had he not, this book would have gone 20 books or more. But he did, and Sanderson was told to finish it in three. Some might argue that he should just continue them for as long as necessary, but the reality is, WoT isn't HIS work, and I would be upset if he worked on it any longer than he had to. I love Sanderson, but you can't have two artists paint the same canvas. WoT is Jordan's piece, Sanderson is simply finishing it.

 

So I don't think it is right for us to complain about character development being rushed. Try to imagine there is more happening between what is being shown to us. And also, remember that an ending is better than indefinite suspension.

[mikegeo]

This is probably beating a dead horse, but yes, all this rushing at the end is because Jordan never intended the story to end in 12 books. After Knife of Dreams, how many of us thought "Oh sure, this could be finished in 1 book"? It was never going to happen. I understand that he never intended to get ill, and had he not, this book would have gone 20 books or more. But he did, and Sanderson was told to finish it in three. Some might argue that he should just continue them for as long as necessary, but the reality is, WoT isn't HIS work, and I would be upset if he worked on it any longer than he had to. I love Sanderson, but you can't have two artists paint the same canvas. WoT is Jordan's piece, Sanderson is simply finishing it.

 

So I don't think it is right for us to complain about character development being rushed. Try to imagine there is more happening between what is being shown to us. And also, remember that an ending is better than indefinite suspension.

 

Couldn't agree more. No way RJ would have finished in 1 book, 5 is more likely. Sanderson basically was handed a checklist of storylines that needed to be resolved and I think he has done a remarkable job of doing so. TGS and TOM were both compelling depsite knowing how several of the storylines were going to be resolved. He built up tension towards the BT and Seachan storlines that still need to be resolved in TOM. I like the lack of filler, Perrin made more progress in TOM than he did in the last 8 books.

[ajfurst]

Sure BS is a more 'concise' writer then RJ, but I don't know how people can think it would be 20 books?! In KOD the plotlines started converging (at last after diverging and splitting from ACOS onwards especially). TGS and TOM continued this.

 

With the exception of Elayne's never ending quest for the throne, read any of the plot lines from ACOS onwards through to KOD without reading any other parts of the books and they aren't excessively strung out. It's only that the number of them left each inching forward in those books. 'Collapse' the plotlines down as KOD started to do and TGS/TOM continued then of course the pace appears to speed up.

 

If TGS had come after COT I could say how people could see BS is responsible for the speed up, but it didn't. And what BS 'gains' in pace for less background description, he loses for 'info dumping' with character speeches where RJ would have left it more 'show not tell' via interaction with minor characters or letting us figure it out.

 

If he hadn't been dying I expect AMOL would have been two books. TGS and the bits of TOM up to Rand's epiphany one book. The despair Rand felt and Egwene's situation was I think clearly meant to be matched with Perrin's having to deal with standing trial with the Whitecloaks, the wolves worried about having a last hunt, Mat held up in Caemlyn due to the letter and Aviendha seeing the bleak future and a view of Tuon planning the next Tower attack all combining to paint a picture of this is truly ****ed, the Light isn't ready, or anywhere even close. Then ending with Rand's redemption / Egwene's ascension. Instead the TOM plot lines are 'Meh. Light Rand is here, no worries!'. Even though the actual story told in TOM is enjoyable as a book within itself, after it's release the way TGS/TOM/AMOL has been split has been shown to be a massive mistake in terms of the overall story.

 

I think then the second book (AMOL) would have been getting the good guys to the Field of Mellor in the first third, before what is now going to happen in AMOL.

[knutz]

I don't think he's taken liberty with it at all. Pretty much every 'Light side' characters arc is about their personal growth and increasing maturity mirroring, if not being directly responsible for the action side of it.

 

Take some of them in TGS/TOM:

Mat - the over trying first couple of TGS chapters aside is Mat still being Mat. Still drinks, gambles, wants to avoid fights, but will always do what's required. Now just uses the excuse of looking for others to perve on other women.

Egwene - regressed in TOM. Not the opposition to Rand. The whole embracing the worst of the Aes Sedai to do it. Manipulative, dismissive of men in authority, the Aes Sedai must be top of the tree, etc. Anything but reasonable and willing to listen to others.

Elayne - stupid as ever. 'I'm safe! Min said so!'. The WOT doesn't need to be the Sword of Truth with rapes everywhere, but it'd have been an incredibly powerful scene if Mellar dragged her off and Birgitte/Mat rescue her after he'd assaulted Elayne.

Nynaeve - she's been on a progression since ACOS at least. And reached it in KOD. She's just continued as one of the bare handful Aes Sedai out of a thousand you can respect as a person. She didn't change in TGS/TOM I think.

 

As for Rand, Perrin and Faile - their plot lines in TGS/TOM were as much, if not more, about who they become as what they did. And that would have been RJ's outline.

 

The thing Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is characters language. I can accept him not trying to mimic RJ, in the sense of pages of silk washing, or Elayne having a bath (all I can say on these, is this better be redeemed by them picking a damn fine looking actress and not censor the Elayne bath scenes in any tv-series / movie!), but using out of character words/phrases, this I don't like. Especially 20th/21st century terms. I can see Brandon may find it easier/quicker to write the story with these terms initially, so he's not second guessing himself and getting out of 'the groove', but they shouldn't make it past editing for the final cut.

 

I feel that not that he had taken liberty with the material as he had done somewhat rush job and some scenes while powerful, their impact is diluted because they are at the wrong point in the story.

 

For Rand, I feel that Brandon done a bit of a rush job on his transformation from half-crazed maniac on dark side (in tGS) to St. Buddha Rand in (ToM). At tGS, the description of Rand falling into darkness was far more believable and realistic. It felt like a logical progression of combining of all his travails and tribulations from previous books combined with Semirhage episode and total breakdwon to timely and great epiphany on Dragonmount at the end. But, at ToM not only he becomes enlightened all of sudden and all full of light and warmth and such plus gains tremendous wisdom, he does it instantly. However awesome I feel his realization at Dragonmount scene was, it wasn’t enough to warrant such drastic transformation. What would have been a better progression of it would be him coming back to Min, Cadsuane and Tam and having a good cry and little breakdown (good one) BEFORE starting to shine light and warmth all around and facing Egwene. I felt that the best Rand as Dragon Reborn was when he stopped being a shepherd boy at the end of Dragon Reborn till the time he started having anger issues somewhere between Moiraine’s “death” and his kidnapping by Elaida’s Aes Sedai. But in ToM, he is too unrealistic on good side for me.

Same thing for Gawyn, first we meet him he is likeable and “nice” guy prince, not perfect or rigid like Galad and who actually likes Rand and seems to approve of him going for Elayne’s affections. Which made it a lot more shocking and realistic the change to him being consumed with anger toward Rand to trying to get revenge for his mother, to the point where he actively refused to believe Egwene protestation of Rand’s innocence and within next 6 books becoming more cold and obsessive and trusting more dubious Aes Sedai (like Galina, Katarina, etc) than his love - Egwene. I actually felt (at that point in time before tGS) that Min’s prophecy regarding him and Egwene would be having him choose between Elaida and Egwene and actually thinking about whether or not save Egwene’s life which makes a pretty good point about Gawyn’s character at that time. Suddenly within 1 book (ToM), his character is completely changed. He immediately believes Elayne and lets go of his obsession toward Rand (after disbelieving Siuan, Min and Egwene before and thats before meeting Morgase alive). He is sympathetic and nice guy again unfairly being criticized by Egwene as being annoying. Again, would have been better impact if he remained his obsessive and angry self till the moment he met Morgase and then having his moment of revelation and transformation.

Also his rehabilitation is done as a tradeoff on bad side with Egwene, who is being changed as you say to classic Aes Sedai-self, manipulative, self-righteous to the point of obstinacy, controlling and cold (stereotyping classic woman as boss "dragon lady" image)

 

The thing about Rand's instant transformation - is that he instantly gained absolute access to the wisdom of about 400 years! It came in flashes before that - and he fought it. He had to speak to LT, now he is LT. There are three causes for a dramatic and instant change in personality.

1) Religeous conversion - don't think so in this case

2) Head injury - He's had a few, but none with the right timing

3) Going completely insane.

 

He accepted his madness on the top of Dragonmount and just decided to run wth it.

 

OK, Gawyn.

 

He didn't believe Egwene because he saw her as a silly girl who had been lead astray and needed protecting.

He believed Elayne, because in the intervening time between meetings, she had grown up, won a civil war and become queen. Without him.

When Egwene told him he was self-righteous,

When Elayne did, he was ashamed.

 

There's a big diff.

[Isabel]

Terry Goodkind almost got it!?

 

No Terry Goodkind didn't almost got it. That was a rumour by Goodkind himself.

If you read RJ's blog you know RJ didn't like Goodkind. I personally cannot imagine Harriet even have considered Goodkind.

[Ghalleon]

Personally, I think some of the character's phrases/comments were a bit "off". To be fair, they were fairly minor things (usage of "son", or 'blood and ashes" as mentioned by someone previously) but Graendal's "Darkness within" seems to irritate me for some reason.

 

However, if that is my biggest gripe, then Sanderson must've done a heck of job.

 

PS - and if Goodkind had been the one to finish the series? Oh my, I don't know how I would've taken that kind of news. All of the women would've been assaulted, and Rand would have multiple half-brothers and half-sisters who all want to kill him, instead of just one who at least doesn't want to kill him.

[David Selig]

With the exception of Elayne's never ending quest for the throne, read any of the plot lines from ACOS onwards through to KOD without reading any other parts of the books and they aren't excessively strung out.

You are kidding, right? Mat spent like 400 pages just moving reallly slowly with the circus and flirting with Tuon. There were whole chapters in his plotline which could've been resumed in one short line "Mat bought a horse for Tuon". "Mat spanked Joline", etc.

Perrin spent 5 chapters or so in WH just brooding about Faile.

 

Suddenly within 1 book (ToM), his character is completely changed. He immediately believes Elayne and lets go of his obsession toward Rand (after disbelieving Siuan, Min and Egwene before and thats before meeting Morgase alive).

Well, unlike the others, Elayne actually offered him evidence - many witnesses in the palace who could confirm Morgase was gone long before Rand came to Caemlyn to attack Rahvin. Egwene just told him "Trust me, it wasn't Rand", without giving any kind of evidence. So it wasn't that unbelievable.

[gary0044187]

Well, unlike the others, Elayne actually offered him evidence - many witnesses in the palace who could confirm Morgase was gone long before Rand came to Caemlyn to attack Rahvin. Egwene just told him "Trust him, it wasn't Rand", without giving any kind of evidence. So it wasn't that unbelievable.

That and she suggested that even if rand let gawyn punish him for killing his mother, it would best be done after the last battle. I think combining "how do you actually expect to defeat him" with "what would happen if you did?" gave enough reason for gawyn to wait on it. Then morgase comes back from the dead and Gawyn no longer has reason to hate rand.

 

Egwene becoming stereotypical AS is a real disappointment. Of all the developments that seemed most needed in the beginning, AS stepping away from the power mongering is the one I am most disappointed at not seeing yet. Considering they intend to keep their 3 oaths even though most people in the world do not believe they amount to anything, they really need to become the servants that they claim to be instead of the masters they are still trying to be. IMHO, this seems to be the purpose of the Seanchan, to teach the AS that they are in no way fit to continue as they have and a second attack on the tower seems all the more necessary, and a third, etc until the lesson is learned.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, unlike the others, Elayne actually offered him evidence - many witnesses in the palace who could confirm Morgase was gone long before Rand came to Caemlyn to attack Rahvin. Egwene just told him "Trust him, it wasn't Rand", without giving any kind of evidence. So it wasn't that unbelievable.

That and she suggested that even if rand let gawyn punish him for killing his mother, it would best be done after the last battle. I think combining "how do you actually expect to defeat him" with "what would happen if you did?" gave enough reason for gawyn to wait on it. Then morgase comes back from the dead and Gawyn no longer has reason to hate rand.

 

Egwene becoming stereotypical AS is a real disappointment. Of all the developments that seemed most needed in the beginning, AS stepping away from the power mongering is the one I am most disappointed at not seeing yet. Considering they intend to keep their 3 oaths even though most people in the world do not believe they amount to anything, they really need to become the servants that they claim to be instead of the masters they are still trying to be. IMHO, this seems to be the purpose of the Seanchan, to teach the AS that they are in no way fit to continue as they have and a second attack on the tower seems all the more necessary, and a third, etc until the lesson is learned.

 

Problem is the only solution we're being offered is to replace one abomination ( Aes Sedai domination of the world ) with another ( Aes Sedai slavery to the Seanchan ).

 

Since this is a multi-volume fantasy story and not the evening news, it would be nice to have a better outcome than either of those.

[gary0044187]

Problem is the only solution we're being offered is to replace one abomination ( Aes Sedai domination of the world ) with another ( Aes Sedai slavery to the Seanchan ).

 

Since this is a multi-volume fantasy story and not the evening news, it would be nice to have a better outcome than either of those.

but we only have one book for the Seanchan to be dealt with, the black tower to be dealt with, the last battle to be fought, etc... Assuming they ever change, I simply do not see the AS doing it in the next book.

[RUSH]

I only have a few points to add to this thread:

 

1) People are being disappointingly (but not unexpectedly) critical of minor things. We have proof (in this thread, even) that we are frequently wrong about what was written by RJ and what was written by BS, yet people are so sure of their own superpower to determine which is which that books are nearly being chucked across the room left and right. Holy nerd-rage, lighten up.

 

2) I agree that some events that should have been super-emotional, and would have been if RJ had been at the helm, felt a little thin. I think this is a direct result of having X amount of remaining story to tell, and the "Wrap it Up" button (see Dave Chappelle) has been pressed. If RJ was at the helm, and he were healthy, I seriously think we'd still be several books away from the end. But, it has been rightly decided that this needs to come to an end, and so it is ending. Despite the massive size of the books, there's just so much to fit in that some things aren't getting as much space as I think they deserve.

 

3) I don't think it's unreasonable at all that the characters are starting to work together. Things are wrapping up, folks. This is the point in the story where the good guys, realizing that they are losing, start pulling together despite their differences, and win in the end, because they were able to trust one another, whereas the bad guys can never quite manage that. Don't you guys watch movies, TV, or read other books? This is how it works. Do you really want the characters to be the same uncooperative Johnny Tightlips until the very last book when they all suddenly work together and win? You're complaining about this, but somehow that would be better?

 

4) I really, really, really hate the Seanchan, especially after Avi's trip through the future, even if that's not the real future. They are the most insufferably idiotic culture in the series, and that's saying a lot, considering RJ went out of his way to make them ALL insufferable. Their obsession with leashing all channelers needs to be put to a forcible, painful, culture-shocking end, and if that doesn't happen by the end of the series, I'm going to really pissed. If the knowledge that the empress herself can channel isn't used to give the Seanchan a giant UP YOURS, a great opportunity will have been wasted. At this point, if Rand decided to just take the idiot Fortuona and start killing his way down the list until he got someone who agreed to put an end to it, I'd be mightly pleased. If the Seanchan culture, which I despise, ends up winning in the end, after the Last Battle, I'll never recommend this series to anyone again.

 

p.s. That RJ/BS got that level of emotional reaction from me is, when I take a step back, impressive. I hate the Seanchan, who aren't even real, with a passion I sometimes wish I could turn toward politics or other real-life causes. Such are the inconsistencies of life.

[Caius Callus]

Terry Goodkind almost got it!?

 

No Terry Goodkind didn't almost got it. That was a rumour by Goodkind himself.

If you read RJ's blog you know RJ didn't like Goodkind. I personally cannot imagine Harriet even have considered Goodkind.

Indeed, it's just something I throw out when someone gripes about Sanderson, who I think is doing a decent job.

I mean, imagine if it was K.J Parker or Abercrombie writing... Although it would be nice to be reminded once in a while while reading the books how senseless the slaughter in the given settings sometimes are...

But it'd still be much, much worse if TARRY got it, hence the example.

 

4) I really, really, really hate the Seanchan, especially after Avi's trip through the future, even if that's not the real future. They are the most insufferably idiotic culture in the series, and that's saying a lot, considering RJ went out of his way to make them ALL insufferable. Their obsession with leashing all channelers needs to be put to a forcible, painful, culture-shocking end, and if that doesn't happen by the end of the series, I'm going to really pissed. If the knowledge that the empress herself can channel isn't used to give the Seanchan a giant UP YOURS, a great opportunity will have been wasted. At this point, if Rand decided to just take the idiot Fortuona and start killing his way down the list until he got someone who agreed to put an end to it, I'd be mightly pleased. If the Seanchan culture, which I despise, ends up winning in the end, after the Last Battle, I'll never recommend this series to anyone again.

I thought it was pretty clear from the context that the Aiel were to blame for dragging the world into a pointless war over principles against the Seanchan.

Also, only the Damane can channel. The sul'dam have the potential to learn, true, but they can't channel. There's a difference, just as I choose not to use my ability to smash windshields as I walk home at night.

[Mulk]

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't RJ say he didn't expect this to run on as long as it has? Like 4-6 books or something like that?

 

I mostly am just wanting closure on what has been a very good story at this point. Much like I was on the Dark Tower story when it went on pause for years.

[Caius Callus]

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't RJ say he didn't expect this to run on as long as it has? Like 4-6 books or something like that?

 

I mostly am just wanting closure on what has been a very good story at this point. Much like I was on the Dark Tower story when it went on pause for years.

Yes, I think it was supposed to be a trilogy. Then a hexalogy. Then a duidecimalogy, but then Jordan bought the farm.

[RUSH]

I thought it was pretty clear from the context that the Aiel were to blame for dragging the world into a pointless war over principles against the Seanchan.

Also, only the Damane can channel. The sul'dam have the potential to learn, true, but they can't channel. There's a difference, just as I choose not to use my ability to smash windshields as I walk home at night.

 

Yeah, I should have added a "learn to" in the sentence about Tuon and channeling. Still, given the Seanchan attitude toward channelers, learning that they are being led by one who can learn to channel, and that every single one of the women holding the other end of the leash can as well, ought to shake the very foundations of the Empire, to loosely quote something from somewhere. Your windshield analogy would only apply if only a certain subset of humanity was capable of smashing windshields.

 

The Seanchan believe channelers are essentially unchained monsters, so their attitude towards those who can learn to channel will be interesting to see further explored. On the one hand, more channelers = more damane = more military might. But who would hold the leashes? The damane are animals, so this knowledge should totally screw with the Seanchan mindset and traditions. I hope it doesn't just get swept under the rug.

 

From Avi's future show, we see the Aiel cause their own downfall, one step at a time, and even drag the other nations down with them, but, really, they are fighting for (some of) the right reasons. They even mention that it seemed like they had reached an understanding with the old empress, but the new empress was different. The Seanchan believe in institutionalized slavery, which they impose on everyone they can, taking anyone who can channel and leashing them. That's reason enough for their civilization to be condemned. I completely disagree with the notion that the Aiel (and by definition, everyone else) should have simply given up and let the Seanchan keep their Wise Ones. But that's my personal beliefs talking.

 

And what's with none of the major characters apparently surviving in her future visions? How exactly did all of these powerful channelers, who really ought to live several hundred years, even with the Oaths, manage to get themselves so thoroughly killed? Rand I can understand, but we are specifically told that Andor had been nice and safe. Surely Elayne should still have been on the throne. I guess it doesn't matter, since it was just (hopefully) a possible future, but still...

[didymos]

Suddenly within 1 book (ToM), his character is completely changed. He immediately believes Elayne and lets go of his obsession toward Rand (after disbelieving Siuan, Min and Egwene before and thats before meeting Morgase alive).

Well, unlike the others, Elayne actually offered him evidence - many witnesses in the palace who could confirm Morgase was gone long before Rand came to Caemlyn to attack Rahvin. Egwene just told him "Trust me, it wasn't Rand", without giving any kind of evidence. So it wasn't that unbelievable.

 

That and Elayne knows him better than anyone, Galad, Morgase and definitely Egwene included. She knew exactly how to cut right through his nonsense and rationalizations. If you notice, he was able to do a bit of the same with her as well. Personally, I see his reluctance to go to Caemlyn as him subconsciously avoiding exactly what happened: Elayne seeing right through him. He didn't want to deal with that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

That and Elayne knows him better than anyone, Galad, Morgase and definitely Egwene included. She knew exactly how to cut right through his nonsense and rationalizations. If you notice, he was able to do a bit of the same with her as well. Personally, I see his reluctance to go to Caemlyn as him subconsciously avoiding exactly what happened: Elayne seeing right through him. He didn't want to deal with that.

 

And the other side of that coin is that keeping him away from Caemlyn and Elayne for this long was another really labored plot device that only served to prolong the story and make a lot of readers hate Gawyn.

[didymos]

And the other side of that coin is that keeping him away from Caemlyn and Elayne for this long was another really labored plot device that only served to prolong the story and make a lot of readers hate Gawyn.

 

Yes: we know. You've got a huge WoT axe to grind.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And the other side of that coin is that keeping him away from Caemlyn and Elayne for this long was another really labored plot device that only served to prolong the story and make a lot of readers hate Gawyn.

 

Yes: we know. You've got a huge WoT axe to grind.

 

No. I'm just not willing to call bad plot construction good just because the author had the bad manners to die.

 

Gawyn's whole plot arc was/(maybe still is ) poorly constructed. Period.

[Mr. Micawber]

And the other side of that coin is that keeping him away from Caemlyn and Elayne for this long was another really labored plot device that only served to prolong the story and make a lot of readers hate Gawyn.

 

Yes: we know. You've got a huge WoT axe to grind.

 

No. I'm just not willing to call bad plot construction good just because the author had the bad manners to die.

 

Gawyn's whole plot arc was/(maybe still is ) poorly constructed. Period.

 

Well, we're never going to recover from the CoT disaster, nor the fact that PoD and WH ought to have been combined.

 

The fact that, in TSR, we had a secondary/tertiary character like Gawyn actually have some importance demonstrated to me just how incredible RJ's world was.

 

But by KoD, it was pretty damn clear that his reluctance or inability to finish plots (the FAIL rescue took four flaming books) had created an impossible monster. If we couldn't flaming get Demandred enough screen time, how the hell was someone like Gawyn supposed to come in?

[Bob T Dwarf]

And the other side of that coin is that keeping him away from Caemlyn and Elayne for this long was another really labored plot device that only served to prolong the story and make a lot of readers hate Gawyn.

 

Yes: we know. You've got a huge WoT axe to grind.

 

No. I'm just not willing to call bad plot construction good just because the author had the bad manners to die.

 

Gawyn's whole plot arc was/(maybe still is ) poorly constructed. Period.

 

Well, we're never going to recover from the CoT disaster, nor the fact that PoD and WH ought to have been combined.

 

The fact that, in TSR, we had a secondary/tertiary character like Gawyn actually have some importance demonstrated to me just how incredible RJ's world was.

 

But by KoD, it was pretty damn clear that his reluctance or inability to finish plots (the FAIL rescue took four flaming books) had created an impossible monster. If we couldn't flaming get Demandred enough screen time, how the hell was someone like Gawyn supposed to come in?

 

 

Agree completely. Especially the last sentence.

[lvemebe]

I was fed up with Egwene being changed beyond recognition she was one of my favourite characters in the whole of series and supposed to be an expert in TaR and in that scene with Perrin in the WT she acted surprised he could stop balefire??

She thought to herself that she wasn't so much surprised

by what he'd done as she was surprised that it was him.

 

 

Is that why she said to Perrin "How did you do that? Nothing stops Balefire!" (yeah in the real world not in TaR)

Egwene was consistently told by the Wise Ones that using the OP in the dream wasn't neccessary that Thought was quicker than she can channel. Wasn't she punished for not getting that right? Besides not all Dreamwalkers could channel in real world.

 

That's what I meant by inconsistent.

Seeing Perrin caught her off guard. After she thought about it a bit, she realized that what he did made perfect sense. She was just shocked to see him there, and even more shocked to see him showing more skill in the Dream than she herself possesses.

 

 

That may be as may, she still thinks that she knows better though. She thinks she knows the right answer for everything and no one else knows as much as she does (uh gawyn already proved she doesnt). She is still trying to manipulate the wise ones. She learned more from them than she did from actual Ae Sedai. She thinks Perrin showing up and doing things she couldnt as an aberation. How dare he know how to control the dream better than her. This is indicative of the way she treats the other Ae Sedai, Wise ones, Wind whatevers and Rand. No the last battle has to be fought on her grounds and no one elses because she knows better. PHAW as cadsuane would say. She has half training. She could stand to deal with cads a few months. She is not the all out get out of village wisdoms. She is still viewing herself as that. That is why she calls Nynaeve back to validate her own decisions. Thank god Nyn grew. In book six Nynaeve would have still acted like she knew what was best, she has certainly grown since then. Just because you read the book before the rest of us doesnt mean you are the vatican of all things Wot. Egwene is conceited and she still cant let it go. Service...Servants...that means they serve the people not dictate which way the people should go. IMO she is as bad as Taim. Luckily for the story she is playing into rands hand. Humble up just like Eggs needs too.