Nakomi

[Nooska]

[

Especially not ones who give cryptic answers like this whole being close and yet far from home spiel. There is no reason why Aviendha would make up Nakomi specifically. Besides in all the books we have never seen anything remotely like this happening. Why would it happen for Aviendha?

lots of things happen in the books for the first time. we see a dreamspike for the first time in ToM. Avi changes the te'rangreal in Rhuidean for the first time. we see weird red veiled Aiel for the first time.

 

and again, I don't have the answers. but I can tell an absolutely unrealistic theory when I see one.

No we don't (just the bolded part)

[b3arz3rg3r]

Amys did talk to Avi about it before Avi left for Rhuidean. But she was very worried about the future of the Aiel. she may have wanted to talk to her again. and despite everythiong she was not completely sure Avi would return from Rhuidean. she makes that very clear when they part. also, Avi's trip to Rhuidean apparently took quite a while and there is very little time left before the LB starts and Amys knows this. they specifically talk about it with Avi in tGS. the LB may start any day for all Amys knows. she might never see Avi again. I'm not saying that this is definitely the right explanation but it's infinitely more believable than a few Jenn surviving in secret among the Aiel.

 

Your argument actually speaks against Amys impersonating Nakomi. If she's not sure Avi would return from Rhuidean why would she try this before Avi has made it out from the glass pillars.

 

 

Your subconscious doesn't create completely new people.

sure it does. have you ever had a dream?! everything in a dream is a construct of your subconsciousness.

 

No your subconscious doesn't create completely new people. It may blend memories of people together, but it doesn't create new ones.

 

 

lots of things happen in the books for the first time. we see a dreamspike for the first time in ToM. Avi changes the te'rangreal in Rhuidean for the first time. we see weird red veiled Aiel for the first time.

 

that's weak. Those are completely different from a new way of character development. This kind of inner process has never seen its like in WoT and it won't. The Aiel aren't Native Americans who believe in spirit guides and stuff. If a character needs a guide he or she'll have to find one in his real life.

 

 

and again, I don't have the answers. but I can tell an absolutely unrealistic theory when I see one.

 

And like I said it's still the best we got.

[haloun]

i actually like the idea of the Jenn. no one said they all died, they said they havent heard from them in a long time. they used to live in rhuidean but havent in a while, that doesnt mean they dont exist any more, secret society among the others probably not, secret hold hidden where none have been able to find them much more likely. it isnt like the aiel seek an in depth knowledge of every nook and cranny of the waste. and it is a HUGE place. the wise ones even said when a well goes dry they have to use T'A'R to find a new one. because they dont know the waste well enough to say "okay lets move to our secondary base of operations now". the wells and fountains in rhuidean were dried up so maybe the jenn left to go find more water, and they just havent been in contact with the rest of the aiel. its not like they sat down to dinner with them every night as it is. all in all a much more probable explanation then a random rock shaped/colored terangreal, or amys breaking custom, or even avi being a schyzoid.

[haloun]

also where else have we seen red veiled aiel?

[herid]

Amys did talk to Avi about it before Avi left for Rhuidean. But she was very worried about the future of the Aiel. she may have wanted to talk to her again. and despite everythiong she was not completely sure Avi would return from Rhuidean. she makes that very clear when they part. also, Avi's trip to Rhuidean apparently took quite a while and there is very little time left before the LB starts and Amys knows this. they specifically talk about it with Avi in tGS. the LB may start any day for all Amys knows. she might never see Avi again. I'm not saying that this is definitely the right explanation but it's infinitely more believable than a few Jenn surviving in secret among the Aiel.

 

Your argument actually speaks against Amys impersonating Nakomi. If she's not sure Avi would return from Rhuidean why would she try this before Avi has made it out from the glass pillars.

 

ok, you have a point there. but is this really the best you can do? what's your best argument against Nakomi being a Wise One?

The meeting definitely takes place in TAR or in a dream. this is evidenced by the food cooking impossibly quickly. so a wise one dreamwalker fits here. they know of Avi's trip and of her route. nobody else does.

 

why did the Wise Ones not talk to Avi about it before in great detail?

Because Avi was not a full Wise one yet. they would not discuss the most important issues with her the same way as they don't with other Aiel. and they are very worried about the future of the Aiel, more than any other Aiel. that's mentioned many times. also, they do actually mention it in Avi's presence although they don't engage her fully on the subject as she is not a Wise One yet..

 

 

 

Melaine stared blindly at the broken building. "A remnant of a remnant," she said, as if to herself. "And if he leaves us burned

and broken, like those boards? What will become of the Aiel then? Do we limp back to the Three-fold Land and continue as we

did before? Many will not want to leave. These lands offer too much."

Aviendha blinked at the weight of those words. She had rarely given thought to what would happen after the Car'a'carn was

finished with them. She was centered on the now, upon regaining her honor and being there to protect Rand al'Thor at the Last

Battle. But a Wise One could not just think of the now or the tomorrow. She had to think of the years ahead and the times that

would be brought upon the winds.

A remnant of a remnant. He had broken the Aiel as a people. What would become of them?

-TGS, Ch 11

 

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised.

 

 

This is a great deal more likely than imagining a secret society of Jenn living right among the Aiel undetected for thousands of years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

lots of things happen in the books for the first time. we see a dreamspike for the first time in ToM. Avi changes the te'rangreal in Rhuidean for the first time. we see weird red veiled Aiel for the first time.

 

that's weak. Those are completely different from a new way of character development. This kind of inner process has never seen its like in WoT and it won't. The Aiel aren't Native Americans who believe in spirit guides and stuff. If a character needs a guide he or she'll have to find one in his real life.

 

that's exactly what the Aiel are. the Aiel are based on Cherokee indians according to BS and RJ.

[seasnake]

Somehow, I think Nakomi something different, not a character we know in disguise. Like a Jenn Aiel who is somehow bound to the wheel, and Aviendha had found her way into TAR when the conversation took place and Nakomi visited her there and talked to her like Birgitte visited Nyneave.

 

Something like that.

[MauricXe]

It's Amys!

 

It's simply the Wise Ones' doing, a part of the process. They need to be sure Aviendha can think for herself and come to reasonable conclusion, they know she will have a big role to play.

They've been asking her philosophical and political questions since the begining of the last book.

In TGS ch.11 Melanie makes Aviendha think on the future of Aiel. She spends whole paragraphs doing it - "A remnanat of a remnant. He had broken the Aiel as a people. What would become of them?"

They tell her not to Travel straight there so she has time to think. On the way they get 'Nakomi' to ask some more questions to make think some more and check on her state of mind.

Part way through the conversation Aviendha thinks "[Nakomi] did not wear the clothing of a Wise One, but there was something about her..."

And in TGS ch.15 - "Of all the Wise Ones, only she [Amys] - a former Maiden - could have sneaked up on Aviendha."

 

I thought Verin too. But this makes me think otherwise.

 

Perhaps during Amys' trips to Rhudiean she saw that Aviendha could save their future.

[b3arz3rg3r]

that's exactly what the Aiel are. the Aiel are based on Cherokee indians according to BS and RJ.

 

Only very loosely. In terms of spirituality and world view they are completely different as is their grade of civilisation. The Aiel aren't at all into mysticism like the Native Americans. Like I said Aiel don't believe in totems spirit guides and all that jazz.

[seasnake]

It's Amys!

 

It's simply the Wise Ones' doing, a part of the process. They need to be sure Aviendha can think for herself and come to reasonable conclusion, they know she will have a big role to play.

They've been asking her philosophical and political questions since the begining of the last book.

In TGS ch.11 Melanie makes Aviendha think on the future of Aiel. She spends whole paragraphs doing it - "A remnanat of a remnant. He had broken the Aiel as a people. What would become of them?"

They tell her not to Travel straight there so she has time to think. On the way they get 'Nakomi' to ask some more questions to make think some more and check on her state of mind.

Part way through the conversation Aviendha thinks "[Nakomi] did not wear the clothing of a Wise One, but there was something about her..."

And in TGS ch.15 - "Of all the Wise Ones, only she [Amys] - a former Maiden - could have sneaked up on Aviendha."

 

I thought Verin too. But this makes me think otherwise.

 

Perhaps during Amys' trips to Rhudiean she saw that Aviendha could save their future.

 

It's not Verin or Amys. Verin wasn't hanging out in the waste hoping for a chance to spread a few cryptic musings on the off chance that Aviendha would use the Terangreal in a new and exciting way. Amys knows full well what Aviendha thinks and feels, she's watched and trained her for a long time. Amys doesn't need to play-act as someone else to hope that Aviendha takes her seriously and comes to deep conclusions, she'd just tell Aviendha what she (Amys) thought about the situation and be done with it. And she's not worried about unduly influencing Aviendha, Aviendha has shown she's willing to buck the Wise Ones' authority and stand on principle. So why the charade?

 

Look at the other stuff like when Nakomi says "I am far from home, or rather it is far from me," and the sudden appearance of extra coals and things that Aviendha swore she didn't see a minute ago, the food prepared just the way Aviendha liked as a child, and you get the idea this was something other-worldly. It makes me think that Nakomi is Nakomi. I think the Jenn Aiel or Creator theories make more sense.

[MauricXe]

After reading through most of the responses, I think I am most comfortable with it being a dream.

[jasonhackwith]

She is the creator

I'm amazed that it took this long for someone to say it. That was my first and only thought as to who it was. Prehaps a English literary major would be better at breaking down the scene to prove that this was your standard 'Visitation from God' scene that appears across a range of literary artforms but I'll try.

 

1. Young character is taking a personal journey to learn more about herself, and to prove herself worthy of leadership among her people.

2. She's travelling through harsh terrain alone.

3. She meets a wise old (in this case) women who appears out of practically nowhere one night.

4. Wise old women provides sage advice that challanges young characters view of the world.

5. Wise old women soon disappears leaving no trace of her existence despite young character being an expert tracker.

6. Young character has an epiphany resulting from sage advice.

 

This rings true to me. The tropes you mentioned are definitely there, and the advice Nakomi gives seems far to helpful to Aviendha to be a DF or Forsaken plot.

[child of light]

I think she was Jenn...

 

don't see her being Verin....

[Randommer]

She is the creator

I'm amazed that it took this long for someone to say it. That was my first and only thought as to who it was. Prehaps a English literary major would be better at breaking down the scene to prove that this was your standard 'Visitation from God' scene that appears across a range of literary artforms but I'll try.

 

1. Young character is taking a personal journey to learn more about herself, and to prove herself worthy of leadership among her people.

2. She's travelling through harsh terrain alone.

3. She meets a wise old (in this case) women who appears out of practically nowhere one night.

4. Wise old women provides sage advice that challanges young characters view of the world.

5. Wise old women soon disappears leaving no trace of her existence despite young character being an expert tracker.

6. Young character has an epiphany resulting from sage advice.

 

This rings true to me. The tropes you mentioned are definitely there, and the advice Nakomi gives seems far to helpful to Aviendha to be a DF or Forsaken plot.

 

Yeah, the creator thing works very well from a general literary point of view, but it just doesn't fit with the nature of the creator that's presented in WoT. At all. RJ talked about this I believe, saying something about how, to the creator, intervening when something goes wrong would be like admitting a flaw in one of his creations or something.

Nakomi does, however, fit very well with the nature of the pattern, seeing as the pattern interferes with the world all the time. She could be a device used by the pattern, of a type not seen before; like a very advanced form of fortelling. I'll admit it's a stretch, but it is possible.

 

I also like the idea from haloun that the Jenn could, have, you know, actually survived in the Waste seeing as it's so huge. They may have known that the ter'angreal in Rhuidean could actually show the future as well as the past, so they may have had the motivation to push Avi's thoughts in that direction. Suppose it doesn't really fit with Nakomi's vanishing act and the other weirdness, though.

 

My main problem with the Verin or Wise Ones theories is, as far as we know, neither Verin nor the WOs had any clue that that ter'angreal could predict the future, so what would be their motivation for going to talk to her? Just to make her...think? Seems strange. Avi only figured out that the columns could show the future because of her special talent with ter'angreal, and it seemed like Nakomi knew Avi'd be seeing the Aiel's future soon. It's just too coincidental that she brought that subject up.

[MauricXe]

^^The Wise One's can also go through the columns. They may have seen the future as well and that Aviendha is the key to the survival of the Aiel.

 

*Edit added below*

I find the creator theory to be the worst of the bunch. It just doesn't fit in with this story, RJ's story, at all.

 

I bet RJ thinks this is extremely obvious, like Asmodean's killer. If that is the case then it most likely is a wise one.

[Demiandre]

Someone said about the Jenn :

 

ah, yes. a couple of families living among other Aiel without inbreeding and maintaining the way of the leaf in secret for thousands of years. they keep converting other Aiel to the way of the leaf to marry them, also in secret. and then their kids do what? if they have more than one on a regular basis their numbers would grow quickly. or is it that only the oldest one keeps the way of the leaf and the others go join regular Aiel? I'd like to see that family conversation around the fire. you son keep the way of the leaf as our ancestors were sworn to do. and you my daughter go join the killers. so sorry, but there is no place for you here.

 

First, it's exactly what happened in Middle-Age (well, in "noble" families at least, and in France. I don't know how it went in other countries). The eldest son became the heir. The second became a priest. The third became what he wanted, but neither of the former. Generally a knight, I suppose...

 

As of a group of person keeping the Way of the Leaf in the Aiel society, do no one remember a category of the Aiel never holding a spear or taking part in any battle? Protected by everyone and by ji'e'toh? Some person being so highly regarded that speaking of torturing them make Aiel discomfortable?

 

Yes, blacksmiths. I always wondered why emphasis was put on their weird role in Aiel society. Why would they be so highly treated if all they did were Aiel weapons? There is probably something more to it, and I suppose it could be some remnant of the Jenn action on the Aiels. They could have enforced that they were keeping safe before completely disappearing. Or else.

 

And Ithink also that the Wise Ones have a lot about them that match the Jenn (the no part in battle, no one would dare to harm them, etc...) that match what we see during the Age of Legend.

 

Those are wild thoughts, if anyone has a better way of explaining what I mean, please do (if anyone understand what I meant^^)

[b3arz3rg3r]

Someone said about the Jenn :

 

ah, yes. a couple of families living among other Aiel without inbreeding and maintaining the way of the leaf in secret for thousands of years. they keep converting other Aiel to the way of the leaf to marry them, also in secret. and then their kids do what? if they have more than one on a regular basis their numbers would grow quickly. or is it that only the oldest one keeps the way of the leaf and the others go join regular Aiel? I'd like to see that family conversation around the fire. you son keep the way of the leaf as our ancestors were sworn to do. and you my daughter go join the killers. so sorry, but there is no place for you here.

 

First, it's exactly what happened in Middle-Age (well, in "noble" families at least, and in France. I don't know how it went in other countries). The eldest son became the heir. The second became a priest. The third became what he wanted, but neither of the former. Generally a knight, I suppose...

 

As of a group of person keeping the Way of the Leaf in the Aiel society, do no one remember a category of the Aiel never holding a spear or taking part in any battle? Protected by everyone and by ji'e'toh? Some person being so highly regarded that speaking of torturing them make Aiel discomfortable?

 

Yes, blacksmiths. I always wondered why emphasis was put on their weird role in Aiel society. Why would they be so highly treated if all they did were Aiel weapons? There is probably something more to it, and I suppose it could be some remnant of the Jenn action on the Aiels. They could have enforced that they were keeping safe before completely disappearing. Or else.

 

And Ithink also that the Wise Ones have a lot about them that match the Jenn (the no part in battle, no one would dare to harm them, etc...) that match what we see during the Age of Legend.

 

Those are wild thoughts, if anyone has a better way of explaining what I mean, please do (if anyone understand what I meant^^)

 

I think a blacksmith can't be made Gai'shain because forging the tools of murder isn't much better than doing the killing yourself according to the Way of the Leaf. It is already a violation of the oath to peace. It would be hypocrisy for them to be Gai'shain. So, while individuals might choose that profession because they don't want to kill it's not a universal thing. Besides there are other ways not to have to kill. There are Aiel traders, craftsmen and farmers even though we almost never see them. I'm a proponnent of the Nakomi = Jenn theory as well, but I don't think the special position of blacksmiths is something the Jenn somehow orchestrated.

 

As for the Wise Ones, them not taking part in battles is just common sense. Not only are they too rare and too valuable to their clans to risk them, but they would escalate the violence to dangerous levels. While they usually don't do any violence they really aren't anything like the Jenn from their mindset.

[herid]

Someone said about the Jenn :

 

ah, yes. a couple of families living among other Aiel without inbreeding and maintaining the way of the leaf in secret for thousands of years. they keep converting other Aiel to the way of the leaf to marry them, also in secret. and then their kids do what? if they have more than one on a regular basis their numbers would grow quickly. or is it that only the oldest one keeps the way of the leaf and the others go join regular Aiel? I'd like to see that family conversation around the fire. you son keep the way of the leaf as our ancestors were sworn to do. and you my daughter go join the killers. so sorry, but there is no place for you here.

 

First, it's exactly what happened in Middle-Age (well, in "noble" families at least, and in France. I don't know how it went in other countries). The eldest son became the heir. The second became a priest. The third became what he wanted, but neither of the former. Generally a knight, I suppose...

 

As of a group of person keeping the Way of the Leaf in the Aiel society, do no one remember a category of the Aiel never holding a spear or taking part in any battle? Protected by everyone and by ji'e'toh? Some person being so highly regarded that speaking of torturing them make Aiel discomfortable?

 

Yes, blacksmiths. I always wondered why emphasis was put on their weird role in Aiel society. Why would they be so highly treated if all they did were Aiel weapons? There is probably something more to it, and I suppose it could be some remnant of the Jenn action on the Aiels. They could have enforced that they were keeping safe before completely disappearing. Or else.

 

And Ithink also that the Wise Ones have a lot about them that match the Jenn (the no part in battle, no one would dare to harm them, etc...) that match what we see during the Age of Legend.

 

Those are wild thoughts, if anyone has a better way of explaining what I mean, please do (if anyone understand what I meant^^)

maintaining blacksmithing as an occupation in one family (or even a few families) for three thousand years is utterly unrealistic. plus, as I mentioned, a lot more would need to be involved. The way of the leaf would have to be kept secret from close family members (brothers and sisters, parents, husbands and wives) for thousands of years too. that is even less realistic. it's beyond belief, actually. especially since it has to be maintained from childhood on. nobody becomes a balcksmith when they are 10 years old. also, real jenn were not exactly receptive to the idea of raising some of their children as killers. I doubt they would consider such practice being Jenn at all. witness Adan's reaction in Rand's viewings in Rhuidean.

 

I could perhaps believe that there is a secret hold of Jenn living somewhere in the Waste. but that is very problematic too. not only they had to keep hidden for thousands of years (and not die out) but they also had to keep in close contact with regular Aiel to understand their culture and keep track of the events in the world. Nakomi is quite familiar with current events, Wise Ones and ji'e'toh. a Jenn living in an isolated community would not be.

[herid]

 

 

My main problem with the Verin or Wise Ones theories is, as far as we know, neither Verin nor the WOs had any clue that that ter'angreal could predict the future, so what would be their motivation for going to talk to her? Just to make her...think? Seems strange. Avi only figured out that the columns could show the future because of her special talent with ter'angreal, and it seemed like Nakomi knew Avi'd be seeing the Aiel's future soon. It's just too coincidental that she brought that subject up.

there is no reason to assume that Nakomi (whoever she is) knows anything about the ter'angreal being able to predict the future. She likely doesn't. All that is necessary is for her to be very worried about the future of the Aiel. Verin certainly never showed any interest in that but the Wise Ones did. They think on it constantly. This is mentioned many times. here is one quote I gave earlier.

 

Melaine stared blindly at the broken building. "A remnant of a remnant," she said, as if to herself. "And if he leaves us burned

and broken, like those boards? What will become of the Aiel then? Do we limp back to the Three-fold Land and continue as we

did before? Many will not want to leave. These lands offer too much."

Aviendha blinked at the weight of those words. She had rarely given thought to what would happen after the Car'a'carn was

finished with them. She was centered on the now, upon regaining her honor and being there to protect Rand al'Thor at the Last

Battle. But a Wise One could not just think of the now or the tomorrow. She had to think of the years ahead and the times that

would be brought upon the winds.

A remnant of a remnant. He had broken the Aiel as a people. What would become of them?

-TGS, Ch 11

 

also, there is some indication that the Wise Ones might know something about Avi's special importance to the future of the Aiel.

When Avi tells Rand about some of their Dreams Rand remarks

 

“There is one other I can tell you, though it may not concern you.” Which meant there were some she would not tell, which made him wonder why the Wise Ones had discussed them with her, since she was not a dreamwalker. “All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain,” that word still came clumsily too, “coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.”

-LoC, Ch 19

Rand is right. Avi is not a dreamwalker and she is not a Wise One yet at that point. why would they discuss important Dreams with her? Egwene for example knows nothing of those Dreams, apparently. there is an implication here that there are more Dreams involved some possibly concerning Avi herself.

[b3arz3rg3r]

maintaining blacksmithing as an occupation in one family (or even a few families) for three thousand years is utterly unrealistic. plus, as I mentioned, a lot more would need to be involved. The way of the leaf would have to be kept secret from close family members (brothers and sisters, parents, husbands and wives) for thousands of years too. that is even less realistic. it's beyond belief, actually. especially since it has to be maintained from childhood on. nobody becomes a balcksmith when they are 10 years old. also, real jenn were not exactly receptive to the idea of raising some of their children as killers. I doubt they would consider such practice being Jenn at all. witness Adan's reaction in Rand's viewings in Rhuidean.

 

I could perhaps believe that there is a secret hold of Jenn living somewhere in the Waste. but that is very problematic too. not only they had to keep hidden for thousands of years (and not die out) but they also had to keep in close contact with regular Aiel to understand their culture and keep track of the events in the world. Nakomi is quite familiar with current events, Wise Ones and ji'e'toh. a Jenn living in an isolated community would not be.

 

And yet for thousands of years clan chiefs and wise ones have kept the secrets of Rhuidean from their spouses. So apparently it can be done.

Any Jenn who lived today wouldn't be the same as those thousands of years ago. Look at those we saw in the ceremony of Rhuidean. They mostly felt sorrow that the Aiel had lost their path. All that separates the Jenn from the other Aiel were their beliefs. Just look at how serious Aiel take their duty. Jenn living among the Aiel would be bound together by a duty and the hope that the knowledge they kept would allow the Aiel a future where they no longer needed their spears. And they would pass those teachings on to their descendants whether spiritual or physical ones.

 

Rand is right. Avi is not a dreamwalker and she is not a Wise One yet at that point. why would they discuss important Dreams with her? Egwene for example knows nothing of those Dreams, apparently. there is an implication here that there are more Dreams involved some possibly concerning Avi herself.

 

About that. Avi is a clever youg woman who is being groomed to be the most important Wise One of them all. Of course they would want her to get involved in such talks.

[herid]

maintaining blacksmithing as an occupation in one family (or even a few families) for three thousand years is utterly unrealistic. plus, as I mentioned, a lot more would need to be involved. The way of the leaf would have to be kept secret from close family members (brothers and sisters, parents, husbands and wives) for thousands of years too. that is even less realistic. it's beyond belief, actually. especially since it has to be maintained from childhood on. nobody becomes a balcksmith when they are 10 years old. also, real jenn were not exactly receptive to the idea of raising some of their children as killers. I doubt they would consider such practice being Jenn at all. witness Adan's reaction in Rand's viewings in Rhuidean.

 

I could perhaps believe that there is a secret hold of Jenn living somewhere in the Waste. but that is very problematic too. not only they had to keep hidden for thousands of years (and not die out) but they also had to keep in close contact with regular Aiel to understand their culture and keep track of the events in the world. Nakomi is quite familiar with current events, Wise Ones and ji'e'toh. a Jenn living in an isolated community would not be.

 

And yet for thousands of years clan chiefs and wise ones have kept the secrets of Rhuidean from their spouses. So apparently it can be done.

There is a huge difference here. The Aiel chiefs and the Wise Ones simply have to keep the secrets. The chief and wise ones positions are not hereditary. and they don't need to live according to the way of the leaf themselves and they don't have to teach it to others from their childhood (and make those others observe the way from their childhood) while keeping it secret from other family members. this is utterly impossible.

 

Any Jenn who lived today wouldn't be the same as those thousands of years ago. Look at those we saw in the ceremony of Rhuidean. They mostly felt sorrow that the Aiel had lost their path. All that separates the Jenn from the other Aiel were their beliefs. Just look at how serious Aiel take their duty. Jenn living among the Aiel would be bound together by a duty and the hope that the knowledge they kept would allow the Aiel a future where they no longer needed their spears. And they would pass those teachings on to their descendants whether spiritual or physical ones.

 

Rand is right. Avi is not a dreamwalker and she is not a Wise One yet at that point. why would they discuss important Dreams with her? Egwene for example knows nothing of those Dreams, apparently. there is an implication here that there are more Dreams involved some possibly concerning Avi herself.

 

About that. Avi is a clever youg woman who is being groomed to be the most important Wise One of them all. Of course they would want her to get involved in such talks.

groomed to be the most important Wise One?!! Wise ones don't play favorites with their apprentices. And they consider themselves equal to each other. there is no inherent rank among the Wise Ones, certainly nobody is groomed to be such. the whole idea repels them as is made abundantly clear to Avi when she finally joins them.

[b3arz3rg3r]

There is a huge difference here. The Aiel chiefs and the Wise Ones simply have to keep the secrets. The chief and wise ones positions are not hereditary. and they don't need to live according to the way of the leaf themselves and they don't have to teach it to others from their childhood (and make those others observe the way from their childhood) while keeping it secret from other family members. this is utterly impossible.

 

The way of the leaf isn't particularly difficult to learn. It's very simple in fact. And in the day to day life it doesn't even figure into it. Only in

groomed to be the most important Wise One?!! Wise ones don't play favorites with their apprentices. And they consider themselves equal to each other. there is no inherent rank among the Wise Ones, certainly nobody is groomed to be such. the whole idea repels them as is made abundantly clear to Avi when she finally joins them.

 

Aviendha's position as Rand's lover makes her the most important wise one. She is the one who can affect him the most and he holds the future of the Aiel in his hands. So yes, she is being groomed to take on a lot of responsibility. Far more than the average wise one and that might be a reason why the others talked about those dreams with her.

[Thor]

Nakomi is Aviendha's long lost mother and wanted to tell her to learn to raise her children properly!

[Randommer]

 

 

My main problem with the Verin or Wise Ones theories is, as far as we know, neither Verin nor the WOs had any clue that that ter'angreal could predict the future, so what would be their motivation for going to talk to her? Just to make her...think? Seems strange. Avi only figured out that the columns could show the future because of her special talent with ter'angreal, and it seemed like Nakomi knew Avi'd be seeing the Aiel's future soon. It's just too coincidental that she brought that subject up.

there is no reason to assume that Nakomi (whoever she is) knows anything about the ter'angreal being able to predict the future. She likely doesn't. All that is necessary is for her to be very worried about the future of the Aiel. Verin certainly never showed any interest in that but the Wise Ones did. They think on it constantly. This is mentioned many times. here is one quote I gave earlier.

 

Melaine stared blindly at the broken building. "A remnant of a remnant," she said, as if to herself. "And if he leaves us burned

and broken, like those boards? What will become of the Aiel then? Do we limp back to the Three-fold Land and continue as we

did before? Many will not want to leave. These lands offer too much."

Aviendha blinked at the weight of those words. She had rarely given thought to what would happen after the Car'a'carn was

finished with them. She was centered on the now, upon regaining her honor and being there to protect Rand al'Thor at the Last

Battle. But a Wise One could not just think of the now or the tomorrow. She had to think of the years ahead and the times that

would be brought upon the winds.

A remnant of a remnant. He had broken the Aiel as a people. What would become of them?

-TGS, Ch 11

 

also, there is some indication that the Wise Ones might know something about Avi's special importance to the future of the Aiel.

When Avi tells Rand about some of their Dreams Rand remarks

 

“There is one other I can tell you, though it may not concern you.” Which meant there were some she would not tell, which made him wonder why the Wise Ones had discussed them with her, since she was not a dreamwalker. “All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain,” that word still came clumsily too, “coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.”

-LoC, Ch 19

Rand is right. Avi is not a dreamwalker and she is not a Wise One yet at that point. why would they discuss important Dreams with her? Egwene for example knows nothing of those Dreams, apparently. there is an implication here that there are more Dreams involved some possibly concerning Avi herself.

 

It may be true that the WOs have Dreamed of Avi's importance to the Aiel - it definitely seems like they know something about it anyway. But that doesn't explain why they'd choose to go to her, in disguise, before she went through the columns. Couldn't they have just, you know, asked her to think about these things before she left? Discussed them with her, like Melaine did before? The whole pretending to be someone else thing just seems pointless; it's not as if Avi doesn't respect the thoughts of the WOs. I dunno, I also just think it would be strange for it to turn out to be a WO considering the whole scene was made so intentionally Mysterious. Could just be misdirection, I suppose, but that'd be...meh.

[herid]

 

 

It may be true that the WOs have Dreamed of Avi's importance to the Aiel - it definitely seems like they know something about it anyway. But that doesn't explain why they'd choose to go to her, in disguise, before she went through the columns.

 

I addressed that above. let me reprint it for those who don't like to scroll

 

 

why did the Wise Ones not talk to Avi about it before in great detail?

Because Avi was not a full Wise one yet. they would not discuss the most important issues with her the same way as they don't with other Aiel.

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised. And they might have an extra reason to do it if they Dreamed something important about Avi.

 

 

groomed to be the most important Wise One?!! Wise ones don't play favorites with their apprentices. And they consider themselves equal to each other. there is no inherent rank among the Wise Ones, certainly nobody is groomed to be such. the whole idea repels them as is made abundantly clear to Avi when she finally joins them.

 

Aviendha's position as Rand's lover makes her the most important wise one. She is the one who can affect him the most and he holds the future of the Aiel in his hands. So yes, she is being groomed to take on a lot of responsibility. Far more than the average wise one and that might be a reason why the others talked about those dreams with her.

ok, you may have something there but I wouldn't squeeze it too hard. Wise Ones don't like to inflate heads and they are very even handed. we see plenty of examples when they leave their apprentices including Avi to cool their heels while the Wise Ones discuss issues of import. this is even clear from the quote I gave above. Melaine mentions worrying about the future of the Aiel to Avi but she does it "as if speaking to herself". Avi is quite surprised at the comment so it's clear that while the Wise Ones discuss these issues often they don't do it in front of Avi. Also, at the time of the conversation with Rand Avi still rejects her place as Rand's consort (even after having slept with him once) and the Wise Ones know it. they even complain to her about it once.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

 

It may be true that the WOs have Dreamed of Avi's importance to the Aiel - it definitely seems like they know something about it anyway. But that doesn't explain why they'd choose to go to her, in disguise, before she went through the columns.

 

I addressed that above. let me reprint it for those who don't like to scroll

 

 

why did the Wise Ones not talk to Avi about it before in great detail?

Because Avi was not a full Wise one yet. they would not discuss the most important issues with her the same way as they don't with other Aiel.

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised. And they might have an extra reason to do it if they Dreamed something important about Avi.

 

For the Aiel nothing had changed by Rand balenuking Natrim's Barrow. He had been neglecting the Aiel for a long time. So I don't see any sudden urgency to manipulate Aviendha like this.

 

 

ok, you may have something there but I wouldn't squeeze it too hard. Wise Ones don't like to inflate heads and they are very even handed. we see plenty of examples when they leave their apprentices including Avi to cool their heels while the Wise Ones discuss issues of import. this is even clear from the quote I gave above. Melaine mentions worrying about the future of the Aiel to Avi but she does it "as if speaking to herself". Avi is quite surprised at the comment so it's clear that while the Wise Ones discuss these issues often they don't do it in front of Avi. Also, at the time of the conversation with Rand Avi still rejects her place as Rand's consort (even after having slept with him once) and the Wise Ones know it. they even complain to her about it once.

 

I won't, I think it's far more likely that they talked about those dreams because they think she's a smart and capable woman who might give them valuable input