Mat's Arc

[nolirion]

Im guessing Noal/Jain is part of Mat's Plot line.

But i have a question

What did Noal mean when he said "tell a malkier that Jain died clean."?

 

I seem to remember Jain Farstrider catching the traitor who caused Malkier defeat. So why would they need to know he died clean if he brought the traitor to justice?

It is after that moment he did something to Malkier under the influence of isha or said something to isha

[1eejit]

the man could is any number of possibilities, but probably is Moridin or was sent by him.

 

One of Moridin's blank emotionless servants would be able to deal with the foxes and snakes from a rather unusual position... :)

[Guest peetey]

Was anyone else disappointed with Verins Letter?

 

I felt it was a little bit too normal/bland for all the hype it received throughout the book. I was thinking it would have something to do with the horn or something...

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

I'm thinking Moraine is probably going to be the 3rd with Nynaeve and Rand in using Callandor. One of her questions probably had something to do with that I'm sure.

 

While both species fed on her, she was held by the Foxes. They're the ones that grant wishes. The Snakes answer questions.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

I'm thinking Moraine is probably going to be the 3rd with Nynaeve and Rand in using Callandor. One of her questions probably had something to do with that I'm sure.

 

While both species fed on her, she was held by the Foxes. They're the ones that grant wishes. The Snakes answer questions.

 

Yes but remember she went through the ter'angreal in tear. She got 3 questions then.

[smileyman]

Im guessing Noal/Jain is part of Mat's Plot line.

But i have a question

What did Noal mean when he said "tell a malkier that Jain died clean."?

 

I seem to remember Jain Farstrider catching the traitor who caused Malkier defeat. So why would they need to know he died clean if he brought the traitor to justice?

 

I don't think it had anything to do with a specific event or thing that Jain did. I think it's simply a culture of the Borderlands, the importance of meeting your death with dignity and pride and not running from your duty.

 

That's how I first read it anyhow.

[dwn]

Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

It always seemed to me that the Ways and Waygates are Skimming made permanent and given defined routes. Also, the gholam looks more like an android/robot to me than other Shadowspawn, who are twisted, but still living creatures.

 

On the Q&A thread is a report of someone asking about this at a book signing. Apparently the gholam isn't actually shadowspawn, so is thus not harmed by gateways. I presume that means the gholam is a construct of some sort.

 

This actually makes sense because Warders can sense shadowspawn, yet, from all indications, Lan didn't detect the gholam during the fight over the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACoS.

 

-- dwn

[Sid]

On the Q&A thread is a report of someone asking about this at a book signing. Apparently the gholam isn't actually shadowspawn, so is thus not harmed by gateways. I presume that means the gholam is a construct of some sort.

 

This actually makes sense because Warders can sense shadowspawn, yet, from all indications, Lan didn't detect the gholam during the fight over the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACoS.

 

-- dwn

This makes a lot of sense, actually. Nobody sensed shadowspawn, and it'd be darn near impossible to place a ward on it so nobody could sense it.

[Muad Cheade]

Well, I think we got a huge hint about Tuon eventually deciding to learn to channel in the last chapter, with Mats fierce insistance that he under no circumstances would be bonded to anyone. After all, we know what happens when Mat tries to refuse something

I'm not so sure that's the case. Currently, her publicly channeling would start at the very least a civil war and at the most, the total collapse of the Seanchan culture. From Aviendha's future visions, we see that the Seanchan remain the dominate culture in the world so I don't believe Tuon will ever embrace the Source.

[AutomatedTeller]

One thing I liked was the 24 coins all landing faceup and Mat saying "1 in a 1000? I'll take those odds"

 

Of course, the actuall odds of 24 coins all landing face up? 1 in nearly 17M :)

[smileyman]

Well, I think we got a huge hint about Tuon eventually deciding to learn to channel in the last chapter, with Mats fierce insistance that he under no circumstances would be bonded to anyone. After all, we know what happens when Mat tries to refuse something

I'm not so sure that's the case. Currently, her publicly channeling would start at the very least a civil war and at the most, the total collapse of the Seanchan culture. From Aviendha's future visions, we see that the Seanchan remain the dominate culture in the world so I don't believe Tuon will ever embrace the Source.

 

Maybe the channeling is what got Tuon killed? It seems like she didn't reign very long and the knowledge that she could be taught to channel caused a large portion of the Seanchan to rebel against her?

[dncjordan]

You guys have a really crazy notion of "out of character", you know that? I'm fully fluent in two languages and have no problems spelling in either of them, but sometimes I write in lolcats grammar for effect, comical or otherwise. Is that somehow out of character for me?

 

And the important part is, it worked. The outrageous letter was the one that actually reached her. None of the others had, and it wasn't the first one he sent. The comment in the end about Thom laughing should have tipped you off: Thom was laughing at Mat writing a highly zany letter out of the amusement of it, not at Mat's inability to spell - that would have been out of character for Thom. But even if you missed that, the part where he said of course he was going to swear at her, how else would she know it was from him was also clear: Mat and Elayne's rapport was established on swearing.

 

If he'd wanted to write a perfectly proper letter with grammar and spelling and all, he would have. But he's not stupid, he writes the way he wants.

 

I agree that this could be a good possibility. Personally, I assumed Mat was drunk and was speaking his letter aloud as he wrote it. Mat drinks when he gets frustrated, angry, etc., and Elayne has always frustrated him. A half a bottle of brandy and voila!

 

I've seen how highly intelligent and highly intoxicated people write. It's funny, and this isn't out of character at all taken in either this or the above context.

 

Edit: I also think it is funny as heck when I read posts of people complaining about Mat's grammar and spelling when they themselves made grammatical and spelling errors as they complained about it. Essentially, it is expecting a farmer who was taught the "3 R's" by, most likely, his parents, to write a quick letter better than we can write a quick post, which is essentially the same thing.

 

Yeah, I used essentially twice in the same sentence. Didn't notice it till I finished. Train of thought, all that stuff. Kinda like writing a quick letter, ya know? Cause we can all work hard to make something real nice reading or we can just not try real hard...like lots of folks here on this website, for example. Mat didn't try very hard to write a pretty letter, he just wrote what popped into his head at the time.

[dfchang]

Well, I think we got a huge hint about Tuon eventually deciding to learn to channel in the last chapter, with Mats fierce insistance that he under no circumstances would be bonded to anyone. After all, we know what happens when Mat tries to refuse something

I'm not so sure that's the case. Currently, her publicly channeling would start at the very least a civil war and at the most, the total collapse of the Seanchan culture. From Aviendha's future visions, we see that the Seanchan remain the dominate culture in the world so I don't believe Tuon will ever embrace the Source.

 

Avi's future will never come to pass because it will be changed. It will be changed because the Seanchan aren't going to be leashing damane anymore and the reason for that is because there's no one to CONTROL damane because all the sul'damane can channel too beginning with Tuon and so technically need to collared as well and where does that leave the Seanchan?

 

Dennis

[Sharaman]

Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

It always seemed to me that the Ways and Waygates are Skimming made permanent and given defined routes. Also, the gholam looks more like an android/robot to me than other Shadowspawn, who are twisted, but still living creatures.

 

On the Q&A thread is a report of someone asking about this at a book signing. Apparently the gholam isn't actually shadowspawn, so is thus not harmed by gateways. I presume that means the gholam is a construct of some sort.

 

This actually makes sense because Warders can sense shadowspawn, yet, from all indications, Lan didn't detect the gholam during the fight over the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACoS.

 

-- dwn

 

All living constructs of power die if they are put through gates. Nyms can't use Gates even though they aren't darkside.

The gholaqm isn't shadowspawn in the sense that it isn't "born" - it's a first generation construct.

Trollocs, draghkar etc are SS because while the original DNA was melded using TP/OP, subsequent generations were reproduced by natural birth.

(BTW, Lan may also have failed to sense it because he was ko-ed by the linked BA in the opening moments of the scrap in the Rahad. )

[dwn]

Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

It always seemed to me that the Ways and Waygates are Skimming made permanent and given defined routes. Also, the gholam looks more like an android/robot to me than other Shadowspawn, who are twisted, but still living creatures.

 

On the Q&A thread is a report of someone asking about this at a book signing. Apparently the gholam isn't actually shadowspawn, so is thus not harmed by gateways. I presume that means the gholam is a construct of some sort.

 

This actually makes sense because Warders can sense shadowspawn, yet, from all indications, Lan didn't detect the gholam during the fight over the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACoS.

 

-- dwn

 

All living constructs of power die if they are put through gates. Nyms can't use Gates even though they aren't darkside.

The gholaqm isn't shadowspawn in the sense that it isn't "born" - it's a first generation construct.

Trollocs, draghkar etc are SS because while the original DNA was melded using TP/OP, subsequent generations were reproduced by natural birth.

(BTW, Lan may also have failed to sense it because he was ko-ed by the linked BA in the opening moments of the scrap in the Rahad. )

 

Construct or not, the gholam apparently isn't shadowspawn, and therefore wasn't killed by going through a gateway. Since I brought up the question above, I just wanted to point out the answer given in the Q&A thread.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

It always seemed to me that the Ways and Waygates are Skimming made permanent and given defined routes. Also, the gholam looks more like an android/robot to me than other Shadowspawn, who are twisted, but still living creatures.

 

On the Q&A thread is a report of someone asking about this at a book signing. Apparently the gholam isn't actually shadowspawn, so is thus not harmed by gateways. I presume that means the gholam is a construct of some sort.

 

This actually makes sense because Warders can sense shadowspawn, yet, from all indications, Lan didn't detect the gholam during the fight over the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACoS.

 

-- dwn

 

All living constructs of power die if they are put through gates. Nyms can't use Gates even though they aren't darkside.

The gholaqm isn't shadowspawn in the sense that it isn't "born" - it's a first generation construct.

Trollocs, draghkar etc are SS because while the original DNA was melded using TP/OP, subsequent generations were reproduced by natural birth.

(BTW, Lan may also have failed to sense it because he was ko-ed by the linked BA in the opening moments of the scrap in the Rahad. )

 

Construct or not, the gholam apparently isn't shadowspawn, and therefore wasn't killed by going through a gateway. Since I brought up the question above, I just wanted to point out the answer given in the Q&A thread.

 

-- dwn

Suspect there's a contradiction there. Maybe an error in reporting.

It isn't SS per se that are not harmed by Gates; it's constructs, whether they're SS or not.

Can't be arsed pulling out quotes but there are a dozen people on this forum who can confirm statements by RJ about this - Terez, Luckers, BBM, etc.

 

Edit:

Actually here - Kod tour

Both sets of following quotes from https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_53c74tbncv

 

Q: Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?

RJ: It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.

Q: So would a Nym have the same problem?

RJ: Yes.

Q: How about Ogier?

RJ: No. Ogier are not artificial constructs.

 

and

 

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be [seen] by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

 

So the gholam are constructs and they should not be able to pass through Gates.

[Duskfire]

Maybe it isnt a construct then. I doubt that it was a mistake; a major villain dying like that its doubtful there would be an error in how they kill it.

[Raven Prince]

First and foremost, I thought Mat was much better characterized in this book than in TGS. Along with everything else that has been posted, I especially liked his new method for justifying the admiration of a pretty face.

 

"She had short golden hair and nice eyes. He noticed that purely for Thom's sake."

 

 

Here are my predictions:

 

Moraine is obviously needed for the sake of the world. Whenever Rand goes over the list of women who have died at his hands, she is always first. I think that she will have a role in TLB that helps Rand achieve internal peace at a crucial moment. Rand will see her, similarly as with Liah, and it will make him take a step back and really analyze his situation. I also like the idea that she will help convince Egwene's intervention party that breaking the seals must be done.

 

Mat's loss of vision must play a larger role in the remainder of the story. Early on in the series Egwene has a Dreaming of him balancing his eye on a scale. When Mat's eye was removed, vapors of 'red and white' seemed to stem from him. I think that (and maybe partially because Mat is my favorite character) Mat will not feel as much pain from here on out because the Eelfinn already fed off of it. As to the significance, I can only guess, but I just have a feeling that it will benefit him greatly. He also idly wonders how Tuon will think of him now, which could lead to fulfillment of prophecy --?

 

Tuon (or Fortuona if she must be called that) will be in the link with Rand and Nynaeve. I have been considering this theory since we learned Tuon can learn to channel in CoT. Tuon mentions that the Dragon Reborn must bow before the Crystal Throne, yet the Karaethon Cycle states 'He shall bind the nine moons to serve him'. My thoughts are that Tuon, acting as a sul'dam, will weave the flows of Nynaeve and Rand (who will be holding the unstable Callandor). Rand can trust Tuon to release him after TLB because she is Mat's wife. She shows signs of mutual love with Mat at sections in TGS, which will keep her to her word.

 

 

I wished Mat's sections in general were made out to be much less than they should have been. I certainly would not have minded an extra chapter or two of Mat and Birgitte carousing in a tavern, or even more chapters regarding the ToG rescue. Hopefully the next book will involve a lot more Mat than this book did.

[dwn]

Here's the report copied from Terez's post in the signing Q&A thread:

 

Towers of Midnight Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH 3 November 2010 - Res Ipsa reporting

 

I asked Brandon since Shadowspawn die when they go through gateways was the gholam dead, or is it a construct? Brandon explained to me that it was not Shadowspawn and a gateway would not kill it. However he went on about gholam being limited by someone who can Travel. I didn't push that response because someone constantly being hunted would invariably have a moment where they were unawares so it was not really a limitation for the gholam to hunt channelers who can Travel.

 

I have no idea how that fits into the constuct/gateway information we have, but it would appear to be intentional.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

Here's the report copied from Terez's post in the signing Q&A thread:

 

Towers of Midnight Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH 3 November 2010 - Res Ipsa reporting

 

I asked Brandon since Shadowspawn die when they go through gateways was the gholam dead, or is it a construct? Brandon explained to me that it was not Shadowspawn and a gateway would not kill it. However he went on about gholam being limited by someone who can Travel. I didn't push that response because someone constantly being hunted would invariably have a moment where they were unawares so it was not really a limitation for the gholam to hunt channelers who can Travel.

 

I have no idea how that fits into the constuct/gateway information we have, but it would appear to be intentional.

 

-- dwn

This is not a direct quote so it's possible that the reporter misunderstood what he was being told? Or that BS was in a hurry and did a Cyndnane-strength?

Brandon is obviously canon but so obviously is RJ and the quotes I pasted up above are pretty key in the context of the War.

This info has also been widely accepted since the reveal at Algiarin's Manor in Kod.

No doubt the contradictions will be resolved at some stage.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maybe it isnt a construct then. I doubt that it was a mistake; a major villain dying like that its doubtful there would be an error in how they kill it.

 

Don't bet money on that.

 

Given the quotes above, how the gholam was dealt with is an error. How Graendal survived was an error, also.

[Duskfire]

Maybe it isnt a construct then. I doubt that it was a mistake; a major villain dying like that its doubtful there would be an error in how they kill it.

 

Don't bet money on that.

 

Given the quotes above, how the gholam was dealt with is an error. How Graendal survived was an error, also.

 

 

I have no problem betting money on it, if such a thing was possible :P I cant see why RJ and/or BS would make such a blatant mistake about such a major foe. gholam and Graendal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

I have no problem betting money on it, if such a thing was possible :P I cant see why RJ and/or BS would make such a blatant mistake about such a major foe. gholam and Graendal.

 

Given that Jordan said constructs cannot pass through a gateway and live, and given that he also said the gholam is a construct ( created not bred ), the gholam living to be pushed off the edge of the platform is a mistake. It should have died the instant it passed through that gateway.

[Duskfire]

 

I have no problem betting money on it, if such a thing was possible :P I cant see why RJ and/or BS would make such a blatant mistake about such a major foe. gholam and Graendal.

 

Given that Jordan said constructs cannot pass through a gateway and live, and given that he also said the gholam is a construct ( created not bred ), the gholam living to be pushed off the edge of the platform is a mistake. It should have died the instant it passed through that gateway.

 

Rather then assume it was a mistake that somehow got past Harriet and Team Jordan, I just think we don't have the whole picture yet. I.E it may not even be a construct at all for all we know and some sort of weird ter`angreal. Considering that it was an Aes Sedai killer - at a time with things like deathgates and whatnot - being able to use a gateway to simply kill it seems too easy.

[Sharaman]

 

I have no problem betting money on it, if such a thing was possible :P I cant see why RJ and/or BS would make such a blatant mistake about such a major foe. gholam and Graendal.

 

Given that Jordan said constructs cannot pass through a gateway and live, and given that he also said the gholam is a construct ( created not bred ), the gholam living to be pushed off the edge of the platform is a mistake. It should have died the instant it passed through that gateway.

 

Rather then assume it was a mistake that somehow got past Harriet and Team Jordan, I just think we don't have the whole picture yet. I.E it may not even be a construct at all for all we know and some sort of weird ter`angreal. Considering that it was an Aes Sedai killer - at a time with things like deathgates and whatnot - being able to use a gateway to simply kill it seems too easy.

Worth further clarification at any rate.