Mat's Arc

[singogreatest360]

Mat was awesome. The plot worked. All is well

[Owayn The Traveller]

I have no feelings either way about the letter but I think it fits Mat. I have to say I feel let down by Noal. Was expecting something there what with him going on about being used, him being the old man at Greandals palace (so it wasn't that king guy asalam?) and with him going missing a few times in the books.

 

By the way Drekka I was thinking off taking it off but ill leave it up just for you. Woo woo Thomas!

[Palarran]

Speaking of Noal/Jain, was he a darkfriend who repented, or was he someone used/compelled by the dark?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yeah which was he? I'm going with him being messed around by Ishy and Greandal. We never really found out anything that went on with him not like Ingtar. That was one of the things I was most looking forward to.

 

Hey maybe the pattern realised it was meant to be Vala Luca there instead of Noal and just killed him off.

[Jeangray]

Yeah which was he? I'm going with him being messed around by Ishy and Greandal.

 

But then, why didn't he do anything to strand Mat, Thom and Moiraine in Finnland or kill them? Neither of these 2 FS strike me as somebody whose Compulsion could be easily and completely shrugged off...

[capuga]

You guys have a really crazy notion of "out of character", you know that? I'm fully fluent in two languages and have no problems spelling in either of them, but sometimes I write in lolcats grammar for effect, comical or otherwise. Is that somehow out of character for me?

 

And the important part is, it worked. The outrageous letter was the one that actually reached her. None of the others had, and it wasn't the first one he sent. The comment in the end about Thom laughing should have tipped you off: Thom was laughing at Mat writing a highly zany letter out of the amusement of it, not at Mat's inability to spell - that would have been out of character for Thom. But even if you missed that, the part where he said of course he was going to swear at her, how else would she know it was from him was also clear: Mat and Elayne's rapport was established on swearing.

 

If he'd wanted to write a perfectly proper letter with grammar and spelling and all, he would have. But he's not stupid, he writes the way he wants.

 

1. When approximately 80% of dedicated fans who have weighed in on this thread so far all have the same opinion, and you're the one disagreeing, the 80% probably aren't the crazy ones.

 

2. You have a crazy definition of out-of-character if you think Thom laughing at stupidity would be out of character for him.

 

3. Neither the spelling errors nor the crossed-out words would make anyone more likely to bring the letter to Elayne's attention. The tone, certainly, and I can believe the tone is something of what RJ intended. The grammatical mistakes, absolutely not. If anything, the mistakes would make him seem more like a typical mercenary captain with no connection to Elayne.

 

4. Since intentionally including grammatical mistakes would in no way serve Mat's purpose in writing the letter (unlike your writing for comic effect), there is no reason for them to have been included other than Sanderson botching the character.

 

5. In the postscript mentioning Thom, Mat says he was going to rewrite the letter because of the "scratched out words and bad spellings," and the only reason he didn't was because Thom was "laffing" at him. (Laughing at him, not with him.) That's clear-cut evidence they weren't intentional.

 

 

Sanderson screwed up. It happens sometimes. He's a good enough writer that his fanboys don't have to defend every word he ever writes.

 

I continually find it extremely presumptuous that people assume they know which parts BS wrote and which parts RJ wrote. Its very possible that RJ wrote the letter scene even if people didn't like it. Just like its very possible for BS to have written some of the beautifully written scenes (ToG and Avi's vision of the future for example) that people seem to like.

 

That being said I really enjoyed the scene with the letter. It was maybe a little too buffoonish but it was in character for Mat and it cracked me up.

[sdelu]

I enjoyed the letter a lot more than I enjoyed the "boots" sequence, although I thought the letter only served to make Mat look stupid.

 

There is one way to determine which parts BS had a hand in. As everyone has made a big deal about, look for the word "tempest." If it's there, BS probably either wrote it or added to it ;p

[DanteAkmea]

Give up half the light of the world to save the world.

 

Something tells me that...it isn't the end. It does make sense, but I don't think that this is the only meaning of the line. I can't explain why, or provide any proof. Just a feeling about it. Maybe Mat convinces Tuon to leave Seandar alone, so the Empire can focus on Randland instead. You could argue that it is indeed giving up half the light of the world, if you believe that Seandar is under the control of the Forsaken, to save the world. If they're focusing on Seandar instead of the Last Battle, they can't really do much there. I just feel that we haven't seen the last of that line. He could only get 3 answers, but that doesn't mean that one answer is the answer to many questions.

[Deadsy]

Just like its very possible for BS to have written some of the beautifully written scenes (ToG and Avi's vision of the future for example) that people seem to like.

 

I do think he wrote at least part of ToG. RJ went 11 books without ever writing "Bloody ashes" without "blood and" before it (I did a search today). I find it unlikely he'd suddenly change that for AMoL.

 

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that there is a "Bloody ashes" in one or both of the ToG chapters.

[capuga]

Just like its very possible for BS to have written some of the beautifully written scenes (ToG and Avi's vision of the future for example) that people seem to like.

 

I do think he wrote at least part of ToG. RJ went 11 books without ever writing "Bloody ashes" without "blood and" before it (I did a search today). I find it unlikely he'd suddenly change that for AMoL.

 

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that there is a "Bloody ashes" in one or both of the ToG chapters.

 

You know the first time I read tGS I never thought anything about reading Bloody ashes or temptest. Now that I have seen people talking about them on these boards it distracts me each time I read them now. I never would have noticed otherwise.

[Sid]

yeah, it's like when Elayne says 'Blood and bloody flaming ashes' in ACoS. You immediately think that something's a bit off kilter, and realize that she has no idea what she's talking about. (as Birgitte points out to her later)

[Manetheren Lord]

I have been confused by this maybe you guys can help out. In the chapter Rabbit for Supper when Moiraine, Thom and Mat are talking to eachother, Moiraine says to Mat:

Elayne is Queen, then?

Sure is. Her mother was killed by Rahvin.

So you told me.

I did? When?

A lifetime ago, Matrim,

So, what did Moiraine mean that he had already told her? I've got nothing.

[1eejit]

I have been confused by this maybe you guys can help out. In the chapter Rabbit for Supper when Moiraine, Thom and Mat are talking to eachother, Moiraine says to Mat:

Elayne is Queen, then?

Sure is. Her mother was killed by Rahvin.

So you told me.

I did? When?

A lifetime ago, Matrim,

So, what did Moiraine mean that he had already told her? I've got nothing.

 

The news of Morgase and Rahvin came to Cairhien during the lead up to Moiraine's 'death'.

[Deadsy]

I have been confused by this maybe you guys can help out. In the chapter Rabbit for Supper when Moiraine, Thom and Mat are talking to eachother, Moiraine says to Mat:

Elayne is Queen, then?

Sure is. Her mother was killed by Rahvin.

So you told me.

I did? When?

A lifetime ago, Matrim,

So, what did Moiraine mean that he had already told her? I've got nothing.

 

The news of Morgase and Rahvin came to Cairhien during the lead up to Moiraine's 'death'.

 

Yep. That made the conversation very funny to me. "Ya, Mat. That's kinda why I had to jump in the stupid doorway the next day. Thanks for reminding me."

 

 

Anyhoo, back to what I was saying about ToG. BS covered this in a book signing, so I take back what I said. But he said somewhere it was a draft, so he might have added some curses :P:

 

Towers of Midnight book tour, Dallas Borders 4 November 2010 - aurik reporting

 

Q: That's what you answered for Book 12. I'm asking about book 13, which I've already read.

A: Everyone in line close your ears...The whole Tower of Ghenjei sequence. That was all written by Jim. Also, the surprise proposal at the end.

[Guest CardTerp]

Hi all,

 

I'm an occasional lurker here, but first time poster.

 

I saw BS and Harriet at tonight's signing, and asked BS about Mat's letter to Elayne. My question was how many people felt that the letter was OOC for Mat due to the misspellings and cross offs, and I asked for his thoughts on that.

 

I'll outline his response since I don't recall the exact details:

 

- BS noted that in our world, spelling was not completely standardized until the 1800's. (implying that it was not standardized in Randland?)

 

- He agreed that under normal circumstances, Mat would not have any problems writing legibly.

 

- In this particular case, Mat was agonizing over what to write (probably because his previous letter did not work?) and getting stressed over it. BS pointed out that Mat tends to get into trouble and not think as clearly whenever he's indecisive/harried. With Thom laughing at Mat, Mat just wanted to get the letter over with ASAP and not worry about it any further.

 

 

 

Hope this information was helpful.

[Lynander]

Alright, I've seen a few people ask about Lanfear's death...so I'm gonna take a crack at it.

 

Moiraine explains how Lanfear died. The Finns fed on her Power too fast and caused her to die (Moirain says the Finns claimed this, so they could be lying). This is why Moiraine is weaker in the power, the Finns ate it. This probably explains why she has lesser power now after transmigrating souls. This, to me at least, probably means that when "the man" came to rescue Lanfear, she was probably dead already. the man could is any number of possibilities, but probably is Moridin or was sent by him.

At the very least, it explains why they are weaker in the Power.

[slacker123]

Give up half the light of the world to save the world.

 

Something tells me that...it isn't the end. It does make sense, but I don't think that this is the only meaning of the line. I can't explain why, or provide any proof. Just a feeling about it. Maybe Mat convinces Tuon to leave Seandar alone, so the Empire can focus on Randland instead. You could argue that it is indeed giving up half the light of the world, if you believe that Seandar is under the control of the Forsaken, to save the world. If they're focusing on Seandar instead of the Last Battle, they can't really do much there. I just feel that we haven't seen the last of that line. He could only get 3 answers, but that doesn't mean that one answer is the answer to many questions.

 

well i think that's it.

mat really seemed resigned to the fact, cuz he knew by giving up his eye, one of the answers he got would be fulfilled

 

anyways, still no moraine thread...

but it's obvious she'll be in the circle with rand while using callandor (remember min had a viewing relating to her helping rand but dismissed it)

and that angreal she has...i can just see elayne making copies of it...super powered aes sedai coming up

[smileyman]

I was also a little disappointed by the gholam's end. It was a tactically clever strategy but story-wise it feels like a cop-out to me. I was thinking maybe the asha'man (forget the name) that helped Perrin create his power wrought hammer combined with Elayne's studying of the ter'angreal could result in some sort of anti-gholam blade or some such.

 

I guess I'm just not satisfied with no weakness being found. Its one thing to outmaneuver a specific character who is more wily or more powerful than others like him (e.g. Egwene manipulating people to do stuff she can't lawfully order) but leaving the gholams (since we know there are most likely more that may or may not make appearances) as mostly invincible bothers me. If I'm not mistaken, the shadowspawn are all creations of aginor (a human, w/e the 'chosen' think) created using human abilities (OP/TP). I believe we also have confirmation that Aginor created the gholam also. If it can be created by man then it should be possible to destroy it with the power of man.

 

I loved it. Things don't work out that way in real life. Story lines and threads aren't neatly sewn up in nice packages, and sometimes opponents are better, strong, more skilled, etc. and you have to outwit them.

 

Besides, just because Mat didn't find a way doesn't meant that Egwene or Elayne can't or someone else we've not yet met can. However my guess is that we're not going to get an answer to that one and that's a loose thread that's not going to be wrapped up nicely.

[dwn]

Alright, I've seen a few people ask about Lanfear's death...so I'm gonna take a crack at it.

 

Moiraine explains how Lanfear died. The Finns fed on her Power too fast and caused her to die (Moirain says the Finns claimed this, so they could be lying). This is why Moiraine is weaker in the power, the Finns ate it. This probably explains why she has lesser power now after transmigrating souls. This, to me at least, probably means that when "the man" came to rescue Lanfear, she was probably dead already. the man could is any number of possibilities, but probably is Moridin or was sent by him.

At the very least, it explains why they are weaker in the Power.

 

Moiraine also suggested that the Eelfinn were lying about that to make her afraid. If Lanfear had died, the DO would know and no rescue would have been needed; whether or he would have transmigrated her soul is a separate question.

 

Lanfear either survived *Finnland and was transmigrated later for reason... or she received a different body as a result of her demands of the Eelfinn. I tend to think it was the second option, and that her new (or changed) body was a creative interpretation of a wish.

 

Speculation time

 

So what did she wish for? This is Lanfear, so one obvious thing is: "I want Lews Therin to love me again."

 

It would take more than a body swap, of course, but not recognizing her is what drew Rand to Cyndane in his dream. Seeing Lanfear there would not have evoked that response. Getting close allowed him to 'see her soul' and remember his one-time love for her.

 

-- dwn

[dwn]

I was also a little disappointed by the gholam's end. It was a tactically clever strategy but story-wise it feels like a cop-out to me. I was thinking maybe the asha'man (forget the name) that helped Perrin create his power wrought hammer combined with Elayne's studying of the ter'angreal could result in some sort of anti-gholam blade or some such.

 

I guess I'm just not satisfied with no weakness being found. Its one thing to outmaneuver a specific character who is more wily or more powerful than others like him (e.g. Egwene manipulating people to do stuff she can't lawfully order) but leaving the gholams (since we know there are most likely more that may or may not make appearances) as mostly invincible bothers me. If I'm not mistaken, the shadowspawn are all creations of aginor (a human, w/e the 'chosen' think) created using human abilities (OP/TP). I believe we also have confirmation that Aginor created the gholam also. If it can be created by man then it should be possible to destroy it with the power of man.

 

The Forsaken were so nervous around the things that they only ever created six of them.

 

Given that Mat was able to sever its fingers, a non-power explosion might have worked, too, but the skimming void was a more certain plan.

 

My biggest concern with the sequence is that shadowspawn aren't supposed to survive going through a gateway, yet the Gholam does, at least for the short term. Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

-- dwn

[Lord_Mat]

Im guessing Noal/Jain is part of Mat's Plot line.

But i have a question

What did Noal mean when he said "tell a malkier that Jain died clean."?

 

I seem to remember Jain Farstrider catching the traitor who caused Malkier defeat. So why would they need to know he died clean if he brought the traitor to justice?

[Shai-tan]

I'll make a Moiraine thread in a few days.

 

Largely I thought Mat was much better written. That letter to Elayne irritated me though. If it had been posted on the board as a joke I'd have laughed, but in the book it seemed a cheap gimmick. A parody of what Mat would actually have said. Authors can play with words, but then need to be cautious--Mat is not an author. That sort of word play is not in him. 'To Her Royal Majesty, Stop Being A Royal Pain In My Backside And Agree To A Meeting.' Yes. Very Mat. The overwrought clever crossback? Not a chance.

The letter is absurd because we've seen Mat writing before and he's no longer a semi-literate lout. Crude yes, but not illiterate.

 

 

Completely disagree, I think it was spot on for Mat, he was so sick and tired of sending letters that he decided to get Elayne's attention, the bad grammar etc was explained well with his p.s about Thom laughing. It was one of the highlights of the book and literally made me cry with laughter

[Jeangray]

Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

It always seemed to me that the Ways and Waygates are Skimming made permanent and given defined routes. Also, the gholam looks more like an android/robot to me than other Shadowspawn, who are twisted, but still living creatures.

 

Re: Lanfear, didn't we get Cyndane's POV in previous books, where she was quite dissatisfied with her body? That didn't seem like a wish fulfilled to me. Maybe she _was_ killed, but DO can't reel back souls that are in Finnland and needed to bargain for hers?

In any case, I don't really understand how the channeling ability can be "consumed". The channelers, are well, channels for OP. The wider the channel, the stronger the channeler. The channel can be cut (severing) or destroyed (burn-out), but purposefully making it narrower seems rather complicated. And it is unclear why it would be enjoyable to the Finn, beyond the subject's suffering.

 

Re: Lanfear knowing how to seal the Bore, I don't think so. Destroying is not building. Also, why wouldn't LTT already know how the Bore was drilled? Mierin wasn't experimenting in a garage, after all, it was an official research proposal she was working on, of which such prominent an AS as LTT had to be aware.

[Owayn The Traveller]

As for Noals compulsion, who says it had anything to do with trying to stop Mat. As for telling them he died a clean death maybe we will see later what he did that made him feel guilt.

[dwn]

Re: Lanfear, didn't we get Cyndane's POV in previous books, where she was quite dissatisfied with her body? That didn't seem like a wish fulfilled to me. Maybe she _was_ killed, but DO can't reel back souls that are in Finnland and needed to bargain for hers?

In any case, I don't really understand how the channeling ability can be "consumed". The channelers, are well, channels for OP. The wider the channel, the stronger the channeler. The channel can be cut (severing) or destroyed (burn-out), but purposefully making it narrower seems rather complicated. And it is unclear why it would be enjoyable to the Finn, beyond the subject's suffering.

 

Re: Lanfear knowing how to seal the Bore, I don't think so. Destroying is not building. Also, why wouldn't LTT already know how the Bore was drilled? Mierin wasn't experimenting in a garage, after all, it was an official research proposal she was working on, of which such prominent an AS as LTT had to be aware.

 

If Lanfear's new body is the result of a wish, then it's likely a creative and nasty interpretation of that wish by the Eelfinn. The loss of her body would surely upset/anger Lanfear, which would make her tastier to the Eelfinn and Aelfinn as well.

 

The ability to channel is somehow linked to the soul, given that Aran'gar channeled saidin, and an RJ statement that, I think, said a severed channeler would still need to be healed after he or she was transmigrated. It therefore makes some sense to me that the *finn might like chewing on it, just as they like strong emotion, ta'veren-ness, etc.

 

As a researcher in the One Power, Lanfear would probably have a unique understanding into the 'physics' of the bore. This could easily give her insight into how it might be closed. Other Aes Sedai, Lews Therin among them, might have some knowledge of it, but she was a specialist in that field.

 

-- dwn