The White Tower

[randsc]

I would be upset if Aviendha's visions came true, because the Aiel are about the most admirable people in these books and I would hate to see that be their end.

 

The fact that the White Tower has apparently fallen in that world (which we know because only the BT and Aiel continue to resist) would ALMOST make up for it.

 

Truly, a revolting organization.

 

Heh, although I'm not the biggest fan of the WT, I would hate to see the Seanchan destroy the Aes Sedai.

 

Ya know, if the White Tower would only modify their three oaths, then they would have no problem in destroying the Seanchan.

 

How do you figure that? This particular army of Seanchan maybe. But Seanchan as a whole has the resources of an entire continent at its disposal, include many more channelers. With actual battle experience.

 

In a straight-up brawl, the Seanchan would chop the WT into mincemeat.

[MauricXe]

How do you figure that? This particular army of Seanchan maybe. But Seanchan as a whole has the resources of an entire continent at its disposal, include many more channelers. With actual battle experience.

 

In a straight-up brawl, the Seanchan would chop the WT into mincemeat.

 

 

I was referring to this particular army.

 

 

However, I wouldn't count the Aes Sedai out so quickly. If they could form circles, and use their angerals and sa'angerals, it would be an interesting fight. I'm assuming that the WT isn't ambushed, has ample time to prepare themselves, and practices "battle weaves".

[blazetheearth]

How do you figure that? This particular army of Seanchan maybe. But Seanchan as a whole has the resources of an entire continent at its disposal, include many more channelers. With actual battle experience.

 

In a straight-up brawl, the Seanchan would chop the WT into mincemeat.

 

 

The problem with that argument is that the current Empress does not have access to any resources from across the ocean. Period. That continent is in total upheaval and no one there answers to Fortuona. Eventually they might, but before the LB? No way. And after the LB, it would be a second Consolidation to restore order to that continent. The only forces that can be used right now are the ones the Seanchan have in ED and the territories they hold. That being said, I still think that the Seanchan will destroy the WT now without other forces intervening. Mainly I say that becaue of what we see from the PoV's from each group. There is absolutely no evidence of the WT preparing to defend again an attack, but both PoV's from the Seanchan in ToM show them focused only on attacking the WT. Asking for an example of preparation of defense is not much, considering that many who share this view think that even a single line or phrase from Egwene to Silviana about preparations would eliminate this argument. We do not see even a single line, phrase or comment (even thought from Eggy IIRC), but the Seanchan PoV discuss almost nothing else. Yes , the WT is doomed if not for outside forces saving their butt. Not because of greater resources or more power, but because the Seanchan are much better prepared to attack than the WT is to defend.

[Ananta]

I think Aes Sedai should remove the Oath to not use One Power as a weapon, and the other Oath to not craft weapons with One Power.

 

This could help a lot in the Last Battle and in battles in general. It's just utterly foolish, and useless. Especially since that Black Ajah Aes Sedai are free of the Oaths. So it's only limiting the Light side Aes Sedai.

 

And before anyone says "But then people would fear Aes Sedai more because they can't know for sure that they won't abuse One Power"... Well, most of the things about Aes Sedai are rumours and myths. Aes Sedai are so mysterious that people hardly would ever find out that they don't take those Oaths anymore (The general population probably doesn't even know for sure if they take any Oaths currently, either. So wouldn't be a big difference).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think Aes Sedai should remove the Oath to not use One Power as a weapon, and the other Oath to not craft weapons with One Power.

 

This could help a lot in the Last Battle and in battles in general. It's just utterly foolish, and useless. Especially since that Black Ajah Aes Sedai are free of the Oaths. So it's only limiting the Light side Aes Sedai.

 

And before anyone says "But then people would fear Aes Sedai more because they can't know for sure that they won't abuse One Power"... Well, most of the things about Aes Sedai are rumours and myths. Aes Sedai are so mysterious that people hardly would ever find out that they don't take those Oaths anymore (The general population probably doesn't even know for sure if they take any Oaths currently, either. So wouldn't be a big difference).

 

 

It was mostly to the benefit of rulers. The Aes Sedai removing that oath would be a political disaster and lead to a viable cassus belli of a coalition of nations besieging Tar Valon at the slightest provocation. It's not unprecedented either since the High King Artur Hawkwing besieged and badly hurt the entire White Tower due to their incessant meddling/manipulating into his affairs.

 

Rulers and nobles are paranoid enough about the Aes Sedai, but are kept in an uncalm ease in the knowledge that an Aes Sedai could never abuse the OP by virtue of oath. Remove that and the White Tower would suffer widespread isolation and downright hostility driven by nothing more than fear and caution.

[Ananta]

I think Aes Sedai should remove the Oath to not use One Power as a weapon, and the other Oath to not craft weapons with One Power.

 

This could help a lot in the Last Battle and in battles in general. It's just utterly foolish, and useless. Especially since that Black Ajah Aes Sedai are free of the Oaths. So it's only limiting the Light side Aes Sedai.

 

And before anyone says "But then people would fear Aes Sedai more because they can't know for sure that they won't abuse One Power"... Well, most of the things about Aes Sedai are rumours and myths. Aes Sedai are so mysterious that people hardly would ever find out that they don't take those Oaths anymore (The general population probably doesn't even know for sure if they take any Oaths currently, either. So wouldn't be a big difference).

 

 

It was mostly to the benefit of rulers. The Aes Sedai removing that oath would be a political disaster and lead to a viable cassus belli of a coalition of nations besieging Tar Valon at the slightest provocation. It's not unprecedented either since the High King Artur Hawkwing besieged and badly hurt the entire White Tower due to their incessant meddling/manipulating into his affairs.

 

Rulers and nobles are paranoid enough about the Aes Sedai, but are kept in an uncalm ease in the knowledge that an Aes Sedai could never abuse the OP by virtue of oath. Remove that and the White Tower would suffer widespread isolation and downright hostility driven by nothing more than fear and caution.

Then again, there's the fact that White Tower can lift the Oaths when ever they feel like, so having the Oaths is really indifferent now.

 

But I guess the rulers don't know that.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think Aes Sedai should remove the Oath to not use One Power as a weapon, and the other Oath to not craft weapons with One Power.

 

This could help a lot in the Last Battle and in battles in general. It's just utterly foolish, and useless. Especially since that Black Ajah Aes Sedai are free of the Oaths. So it's only limiting the Light side Aes Sedai.

 

And before anyone says "But then people would fear Aes Sedai more because they can't know for sure that they won't abuse One Power"... Well, most of the things about Aes Sedai are rumours and myths. Aes Sedai are so mysterious that people hardly would ever find out that they don't take those Oaths anymore (The general population probably doesn't even know for sure if they take any Oaths currently, either. So wouldn't be a big difference).

 

 

It was mostly to the benefit of rulers. The Aes Sedai removing that oath would be a political disaster and lead to a viable cassus belli of a coalition of nations besieging Tar Valon at the slightest provocation. It's not unprecedented either since the High King Artur Hawkwing besieged and badly hurt the entire White Tower due to their incessant meddling/manipulating into his affairs.

 

Rulers and nobles are paranoid enough about the Aes Sedai, but are kept in an uncalm ease in the knowledge that an Aes Sedai could never abuse the OP by virtue of oath. Remove that and the White Tower would suffer widespread isolation and downright hostility driven by nothing more than fear and caution.

Then again, there's the fact that White Tower can lift the Oaths when ever they feel like, so having the Oaths is really indifferent now.

 

But I guess the rulers don't know that.

 

 

No it's not. Lifting them would destroy the position the WT tried to build up for itself over centuries of careful diplomacy. The Aes Sedai don't possess a societal structure like the Wise Ones or Windfinders to rely on. Which is their own doing by removing themselves from society and holding themselves aloof. Instead their source of power comes from their advisory role to users, which is based on the trust that they took the oaths restricting their use of the power.

 

The Aes Sedai will simply become irrelevant and shunned. If they try to force their acceptance onto the ruling nations and nobles, they will simply be destroyed or their power castrated even further.

 

The diplomatic reality in Randland is that removing the Oaths would also require a complete restructuring of the role of the WT in society.

[Ananta]

No it's not. Lifting them would destroy the position the WT tried to build up for itself over centuries of careful diplomacy. The Aes Sedai don't possess a societal structure like the Wise Ones or Windfinders to rely on. Which is their own doing by removing themselves from society and holding themselves aloof. Instead their source of power comes from their advisory role to users, which is based on the trust that they took the oaths restricting their use of the power.

 

The Aes Sedai will simply become irrelevant and shunned. If they try to force their acceptance onto the ruling nations and nobles, they will simply be destroyed or their power castrated even further.

 

The diplomatic reality in Randland is that removing the Oaths would also require a complete restructuring of the role of the WT in society.

 

If Aes Sedai removed the Oath to not attack people unless threatened, as I see it, it would even benefit their cause as a "guiding light" of the Randland.

 

Consider Aes Sedai as nukes. If one country has a nuke, all other rivaling countries rush to get theirs, so that it can't be used as a leverage that efficiently.

 

Everyone would rush to ally with White Tower, if there was even the remote possibility that they might offer military aid if necessary. White Tower, of course, wouldn't lend aid if the war was between two nations that are under their guidance.

[Fel]

The diplomatic reality in Randland is that removing the Oaths would also require a complete restructuring of the role of the WT in society.

 

That may be true...so just put the oath back on after the Last Battle. The coming war is far greater and harder than anything else. They are battling for reality itself. Limiting themselves in that fight because it would be politically advantageous seems rather backwards.

 

How about we win the last battle first and THEN we can see what the world looks like and re-instill the oaths if we need to?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

No it's not. Lifting them would destroy the position the WT tried to build up for itself over centuries of careful diplomacy. The Aes Sedai don't possess a societal structure like the Wise Ones or Windfinders to rely on. Which is their own doing by removing themselves from society and holding themselves aloof. Instead their source of power comes from their advisory role to users, which is based on the trust that they took the oaths restricting their use of the power.

 

The Aes Sedai will simply become irrelevant and shunned. If they try to force their acceptance onto the ruling nations and nobles, they will simply be destroyed or their power castrated even further.

 

The diplomatic reality in Randland is that removing the Oaths would also require a complete restructuring of the role of the WT in society.

 

If Aes Sedai removed the Oath to not attack people unless threatened, as I see it, it would even benefit their cause as a "guiding light" of the Randland.

 

Consider Aes Sedai as nukes. If one country has a nuke, all other rivaling countries rush to get theirs, so that it can't be used as a leverage that efficiently.

 

Everyone would rush to ally with White Tower, if there was even the remote possibility that they might offer military aid if necessary. White Tower, of course, wouldn't lend aid if the war was between two nations that are under their guidance.

 

 

No. It would lead to their own destruction, as even the entire White Tower could not withstand a combined army of nations. The oath are what keeps up the status quo in a complex relationship. Remove the oath and you remove the equal ground. People are secured (perhaps in a false sense) that due to the oaths the Aes Sedai pose no danger to them, even the most ignorant farmer can recite the "An Aes Sedai can never lie or use the power on a person," line.

 

A short view into world history should make you familiar with the phrase "containment." Power is often divided and peace can only exist when there remains a certain balance. If the balance teeters too much in favor of one party, the other parties will generally band up and either restore the status quo or remove the troublemaker from the equation. Nobility and leadership in Randland is already at a strained enough crossroads with Aes Sedai, but they trust them as an adviser because of their oaths. The oaths allowing them to fulfill their niche.

 

Remove the oaths. Couple in the fact that women similar to Elaida, Bonwhin or Vayu will certainly reach power again, this time completely unhemmed by pesky things such as oaths. You're looking at a cookbook for anarchy and disaster.

[Taura-Tierno]

No it's not. Lifting them would destroy the position the WT tried to build up for itself over centuries of careful diplomacy. The Aes Sedai don't possess a societal structure like the Wise Ones or Windfinders to rely on. Which is their own doing by removing themselves from society and holding themselves aloof. Instead their source of power comes from their advisory role to users, which is based on the trust that they took the oaths restricting their use of the power.

 

The Aes Sedai will simply become irrelevant and shunned. If they try to force their acceptance onto the ruling nations and nobles, they will simply be destroyed or their power castrated even further.

 

The diplomatic reality in Randland is that removing the Oaths would also require a complete restructuring of the role of the WT in society.

 

If Aes Sedai removed the Oath to not attack people unless threatened, as I see it, it would even benefit their cause as a "guiding light" of the Randland.

 

Consider Aes Sedai as nukes. If one country has a nuke, all other rivaling countries rush to get theirs, so that it can't be used as a leverage that efficiently.

 

Everyone would rush to ally with White Tower, if there was even the remote possibility that they might offer military aid if necessary. White Tower, of course, wouldn't lend aid if the war was between two nations that are under their guidance.

 

 

No. It would lead to their own destruction, as even the entire White Tower could not withstand a combined army of nations. The oath are what keeps up the status quo in a complex relationship. Remove the oath and you remove the equal ground. People are secured (perhaps in a false sense) that due to the oaths the Aes Sedai pose no danger to them, even the most ignorant farmer can recite the "An Aes Sedai can never lie or use the power on a person," line.

 

A short view into world history should make you familiar with the phrase "containment." Power is often divided and peace can only exist when there remains a certain balance. If the balance teeters too much in favor of one party, the other parties will generally band up and either restore the status quo or remove the troublemaker from the equation. Nobility and leadership in Randland is already at a strained enough crossroads with Aes Sedai, but they trust them as an adviser because of their oaths. The oaths allowing them to fulfill their niche.

 

Remove the oaths. Couple in the fact that women similar to Elaida, Bonwhin or Vayu will certainly reach power again, this time completely unhemmed by pesky things such as oaths. You're looking at a cookbook for anarchy and disaster.

 

Elaida would've made one hell of a mess of things even with the Oaths. I doubt the Oaths would've stopped her.

 

I disagree that the regents of various nations only tolerate the Aes Sedai because of the Oaths. They'd use the Aes Sedai without the Oaths as well. In Andor and Cairhien, people seem to have respect for Aes Sedai, and in the Borderlands the respect is very distinct, both among commoners and nobility. Aes Sedai counsel would be just as valuable even without the Oaths - perhaps more so, because Aes Sedai would live even longer. So regents would most certainly want that advice. All it would take is one nation having an Aes Sedai advisor, and most others would want one too to level the playing field.

 

The Oaths don't make ordinary people trust Aes Sedai. In the southeast and among others who are influenced by the Whitecloaks, people already believe that Oaths are pure lies and don't bind the Aes Sedai at all. Commoners all over the world know that even if an Aes Sedai seems to be speaking the truth as plain as it gets, she most likely isn't. So people doubt Aes Sedai, because they know that Aes Sedai do whatever they can to work their way around them. The fact that they "only" refrain from using the OP as a weapon because of an Oath doesn't make people any more inclined to trust in their honesty. Why trust someone who might use the OP to hurt you if it weren't for those Oaths?

 

The Oaths is what makes people vary of Aes Sedai. If, instead of being bound to follow the Oaths, the Aes Sedai strived to follow them, and deviations from the third Oath about using the OP as a weapon was punished severely, people would know that the Aes Sedai want to live up to the Oaths, and thus, would trust them more than they do now. If the ideal is not to speak falsehood (whether direct or by omission, twisting the truth, etc) people who have all the more reason to trust Aes Sedai.

[nolirion]

No it's not. Lifting them would destroy the position the WT tried to build up for itself over centuries of careful diplomacy. The Aes Sedai don't possess a societal structure like the Wise Ones or Windfinders to rely on. Which is their own doing by removing themselves from society and holding themselves aloof. Instead their source of power comes from their advisory role to users, which is based on the trust that they took the oaths restricting their use of the power.

 

The Aes Sedai will simply become irrelevant and shunned. If they try to force their acceptance onto the ruling nations and nobles, they will simply be destroyed or their power castrated even further.

 

The diplomatic reality in Randland is that removing the Oaths would also require a complete restructuring of the role of the WT in society.

 

If Aes Sedai removed the Oath to not attack people unless threatened, as I see it, it would even benefit their cause as a "guiding light" of the Randland.

 

Consider Aes Sedai as nukes. If one country has a nuke, all other rivaling countries rush to get theirs, so that it can't be used as a leverage that efficiently.

 

Everyone would rush to ally with White Tower, if there was even the remote possibility that they might offer military aid if necessary. White Tower, of course, wouldn't lend aid if the war was between two nations that are under their guidance.

Or all the remaining country that does not have nuke ally and destroy the country who ass or the nuke maker .

[Nooska]

The oaths are meaningless after Egwenes Mesana hunters came up with not 1, but 3 ways to defeat the rod - especially the one with weaves that alter the perception of that spoken - any AS or Accepted can swear anything, so the oath itself is meaningless, as even seeing it sworn does not guarantee that the oath heard is in effect.

[gary0044187]

the oaths are meaningless because the AS have been perverting them for ages. With no intention of following the spirit of the oaths they dance around the words them. Still RQE is right here, if they stop taking the oath they will hurt their image with the leadership of the countries that support them.

[Nooska]

the oaths are meaningless because the AS have been perverting them for ages. With no intention of following the spirit of the oaths they dance around the words them.

I wont disagree with that point at all. My point was (addidng yours);

"The oaths (have been meaningless for centuries due to practise of avoiding them and) are meaningless in any technical value now that..."

The Amyrlin and several sitters (I believe, iirc) know that the first oath can't be counted on, except in cases where there is supporting evidence.

Still RQE is right here, if they stop taking the oath they will hurt their image with the leadership of the countries that support them.

And I agree with that point as well - basically, in regards to the oaths, the WTAS are screwed if they do and screwed if they don't. What they need, politically, is to (re?)establish a relationship with the nations of trust based on selfless assistance like.. well, like AOL Aiel or HotS AS. By establishing such a relationship the oaths will be superfluous, and safe to stop using.