The White Tower

[GB]

i wonder if there is much time for aes sedai v/s seanchan assault, the discussion at the fields is one day before rand goes to Shayol Ghul.

 

so i think the seanchan will start there assault, then probably an aes sedai will travel to the fields with the news and rand and egwene will team up to finally do something about them.

 

and adding to that avi's vision of the future, she will likely tell rand that the dragon's peace with the seanchan will have to happen with a view of not collaring anymore channelers.

 

I'm tempted to agree, but look how much book space the first Seanchan attack took. Or the Tower of Genjei sequence. Or the defense of Maradon. So much can happen in 30 pages I think it's quite likely -something- will happen to bring the Seanchan conflict to a boil.

 

The only major side plots left are the Seanchan situation, the Black Tower, and the new Rand/Lanfear connection. All that seems easily doable in the last book.

 

-- dwn

 

 

indeed and there is the black tower issue as well, i dont think rand will go to shayol ghul without the black tower prophecy being fulfilled and it being rent in blood and fire.

 

so yep true,a lot of stuff can happen in a "few" pages.

 

what can also happen is before rand goes to SG, he has the meeting, then travel with a delegation of aes sedai/ashaman and egwene and maybe the monarchs, with perrin as well to Edou Dar, meets the empress while at that time, the white tower is being assaulted,

 

he bows to her, proposes some sort of agreement, mat probably might help if moiraine, thom and him manages to escape camelyn alive and moiraine learns how to weave a gateway.

 

 

and the empress might then call off her attack.

[Jeangray]

I think that will happen eventually, but not in this series. The stilling and then re-healing of Siuan and Leane also will affect the power structure of the Tower eventually.

 

IMHO, the OP hierarchy needs to fall for the WT to be effective in TG. It will also make the turnaround more plausible if pre-existing smarter people come out of the shadows and take the tiller from (OP) brawny doofuses who have used it so ineptly so far. I imagine that Androl is another step in that direction, as an object lesson to bonded sisters and Pevara.

[dwn]

I think that will happen eventually, but not in this series. The stilling and then re-healing of Siuan and Leane also will affect the power structure of the Tower eventually.

 

IMHO, the OP hierarchy needs to fall for the WT to be effective in TG. It will also make the turnaround more plausible if pre-existing smarter people come out of the shadows and take the tiller from (OP) brawny doofuses who have used it so ineptly so far. I imagine that Androl is another step in that direction, as an object lesson to bonded sisters and Pevara.

 

BS/RJ definitely made a big deal of the other men deferring to Androl even though he was quite weak. It falls in line with how the Wise Ones, Kin, and probably Windfinders figure out rank, so the Accepted exchange program will likely help as well.

 

-- dwn

[Barid Bel Medar]

What odds Rand will do the love-rat act on Min, Avi and Elayne?

 

Yeah, i think thats the Shadow's plan.

 

Lanfear torture thing wasnt real, it was a fake.

 

Just before SH talking to Graendal, she says something along the lines of, I can bring him the pain and torture etc...

Then SH says the task has been given to another.

then lanfear mysteriously shows up in Rands dream.

RJ has made it clear (check theoryland database) that Lanfear, nor any of the other forsaken would turn back to the Light (apart from Asmo i suppose, but he didnt really)

Also, the last we heard from lanfear, she was dead set on killing Rand, i doubt that it had changed so completely.

 

I agree, Rand is going to be seduced by lanfear (used by moridin) to hurt/kill him.

 

I would think that Rand would be more sensible now that he is super jesus, but from his PoV, it looks like this is his weakness.

[analyticalkeys]

You know, it occurs to me that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana is as complete as anything could be short of balefire. She's not dead so the Dark One couldn't tranmigrate her (not that I think he would have) and yet she is utterly neutralized.

 

Also, Nynaeve's testing was very interesting. She made several points that needed to be made about the Aes Sedai's beliefs of whats worthy. Add the fact of Moiraine, who though with an angreal is still effective, is in fact too weak in the Power to hold the shawl--but is nevertheless a fully bound Aes Sedai under Egwene's silly conception of what makes an Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai. I mean concider, under Egwene's plan of retirement to the Kin you are going to have women with all the skills and ability of Aes Sedai, but with more experience, in the Kin. Ultimately the perception of the Kin will change.

 

I think what Egwene needs to do is have them all be Aes Sedai, and then have ranks within the Aes Sedai. So a woman is Aes Sedai, but a shawled woman is an Aes Sedai who has passed the test, and therefore has greater rank and authority. Move away from the strength hierarchy and use the proving of oneself as Aes Sedai.

 

Regarding Moiraine, saving her was required to save the world right? Rand mentioned he wants Nynaeve to use Callandor with him, I bet he'd want Moiraine to be the second when he sees her alive. I don't think Rand will choose the second person based on strength in the power, it'd be based on the reasons he mentioned to Nynaeve, trust. And we keep heering everybody say how Moiraine was the one AE that rand listened to. What do you think?

 

My bet is on Lanfear, after being rescued by Rand, being the second. Just seems to obvious to me... And not only because of their past histories together and her strength, but also, Rand will need the experience and knowledge of an female Aes Sadai from the Age of Legends as part of the link to help seal the bore (given Rand / LT's the lack of knowledge in not working with women the last time).

 

I'm pretty confident that Rand will use Moraine as the second person.... he doesn't trust Lanfear that much to join with her; he just has a soft spot for her. I definitely think he's going to get some kind of information about the Bore from her though, being that she is the one who created it originally in any case.

[Duskfire]

It would either be Moiraine or Alivia or Cadsuane I would say. They would all have the honors far ahead of Lanfear. I cant see Rand trusting her no matter what she did.

[Guest]

To me, the most interesting thing about the white tower, is the cliffhanger of the seanchan all-in attack bound to happen. How can this be resolved?

Well, 1st i believe most of the WT forces and AS are at the field with the other armies (i hope) there will probably be a fraction left (including novices and accepted :S ) and while discussing the Seal issue, reports will come of caemlyn and WT are besieged. They will need to split their forces. The seanchan are seemingly the most dangerous and requires channelers to be handled. I forsee maybe a need to have every asha'man under Logain join in this one, including every other channeler available, while the main regular army force - under supreme general Gareth Bryne and General Rodel Ituralde and General Davram Bashere focus on the shadowspawn in Caemlyn. This seanchan attack might in fact be what we have waited for, so the forces of light can subdue them, and forcibly remove all their channelers and have them ordained in the hallowed halls of the white tower THE KIN! they work wonders with former damane :D

 

anyhow, Mat will probably play a part in throwing Tuon down a couple notches as well. Btw, can the attack Tuon instigated, both the raid and the all-out charge, be a result of the compulsion Graendal said she was trying to tie around the young empress?

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

BS/RJ definitely made a big deal of the other men deferring to Androl even though he was quite weak. It falls in line with how the Wise Ones, Kin, and probably Windfinders figure out rank, so the Accepted exchange program will likely help as well.

 

-- dwn

 

Probably not. Think about it for a minute, when have any of these women done the smart thing instead of the stupid one?

 

Two basic possibilities. The cross-training helps meld the three groups together or it serves to fracture all three groups.

 

Given the way these people think, it'll be the second. Instead of 3-4 distinct groups, it'll Balkanize into 16 groups. The only way it could stand a chance of helping is if every female channeler cross-trained in every discipline, Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders, Aes Sedai. Two per year won't cut it. Those two will simply be marginalized by all groups.

[Guest]

 

BS/RJ definitely made a big deal of the other men deferring to Androl even though he was quite weak. It falls in line with how the Wise Ones, Kin, and probably Windfinders figure out rank, so the Accepted exchange program will likely help as well.

 

-- dwn

 

Probably not. Think about it for a minute, when have any of these women done the smart thing instead of the stupid one?

 

Two basic possibilities. The cross-training helps meld the three groups together or it serves to fracture all three groups.

 

Given the way these people think, it'll be the second. Instead of 3-4 distinct groups, it'll Balkanize into 16 groups. The only way it could stand a chance of helping is if every female channeler cross-trained in every discipline, Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders, Aes Sedai. Two per year won't cut it. Those two will simply be marginalized by all groups.

 

I think the same thing. But i believe they should be one organization. Former Damane will teach the art of destruction. Wise ones will teach character and strength of will. Aes sedai will teach most weaves, there should be something other than the yellow ajah teaching healing. Windfinders focues on everyone skilled in air and water. Not to mention, i believe that the men should be included into this organization as well. One thing is for certain, the wise ones, aes sedai and windfinders need all stop being so damn stubborn. they need to realize the worth in each other.

[dwn]

 

BS/RJ definitely made a big deal of the other men deferring to Androl even though he was quite weak. It falls in line with how the Wise Ones, Kin, and probably Windfinders figure out rank, so the Accepted exchange program will likely help as well.

 

-- dwn

 

Probably not. Think about it for a minute, when have any of these women done the smart thing instead of the stupid one?

 

Two basic possibilities. The cross-training helps meld the three groups together or it serves to fracture all three groups.

 

Given the way these people think, it'll be the second. Instead of 3-4 distinct groups, it'll Balkanize into 16 groups. The only way it could stand a chance of helping is if every female channeler cross-trained in every discipline, Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders, Aes Sedai. Two per year won't cut it. Those two will simply be marginalized by all groups.

 

Now that's a tad excessively bitter.

 

The Aes Sedai aren't complete fools. Their main failing is that over time they've become insular, concerned more with the institution of Aes Sedai than with their own purpose. The Oaths, the serene demeanour, the ageless look, the heavy reliance on tradition, while well intentioned, have only served to slowly segregate them from the rest of the world. Nynaeve sees this, and points out the dangers of being so removed from society.

 

The Wise Ones and Windfinders don't have that problem. Both groups are arrogant to outsiders (as are most Aiel and Sea Folk), but serve an important and respected position in their respective cultures.

 

With the influx of older novices, the exchange program with the Wise Ones and Sea Folk, and the option for Aes Sedai to truly retire, the Aes Sedai are certainly going to begin to change. Look how eager some are to learning and rediscovering new weaves. Look how even Romanda in KoD starts to rethink her opposition to the older novices.

 

The Black Tower will have the biggest impact. Not only must Aes Sedai (and the others) learn to accept men on an equal footing, but the availability of channeling men gives these women the chance at having husbands (and families) that aren't consigned to--from the women's point of view--an early death.

 

The Aes Sedai aren't irredeemably stupid; they just cling to the institution and traditions they know because it is all they've ever known. That has every indication of changing, though it will likely take many years to do so.

 

-- dwn

[Bob T Dwarf]

You say tomayto and I say tomahto.

 

To me it's just taking off the rose-colored glasses and taking a realistic look at these women.

 

We bloody well HOPE these women aren't irredeemably stoopid, but so far we have no good data to back that hypothesis.

 

Since we've now come to the point in the story for The-Great-Team-Building-Exercise-In-The-Wilderness, tell me honestly, how many Aes Sedai do you think will be willing to fall over backwards and trust a Windfinder to catch her? How many nobles will trust an Aes Sedai to catch them? How many common foot soldiers would trust their own noble officer to catch them?

 

Honestly, if you could buy and sell Aes Sedai on a commodity exchange, you'd make several fortunes selling them short every day.

[pattyruss]

If I remember correctly, Egwene states in the ToM that she will not go through the 100 weave Aes Sedai test (I believe Egwene was talking to herself when she made this claim.) Egwene claimed that she was already an Aes Sedai because being raised to the Amyrlin Seat granted Egwene her Aes Sedai status. Isn't this a little unfair? Especially after she admittedly made Nynaeve's test much more painful and difficult than it needed to be? I think Egwene should have to take the 100 weave test since it is the test that determines Aes Sedaihood! How can Egwene, as the Amyrlin Seat, expect other women to go through that torturous and life-threatening process when she herself has not made that sacrifice? Does opting out of the 100 weave test make Egwene less of an Aes Sedai?

[Cyf]

I think it makes her an arrogant prat.

 

It doesn't make her less of an Aes Sedai, however. Legally, she's 100% correct in this, and to an extent, she's politically astute to not do so. If she takes the test, it opens up a question: So, was she NOT Aes Sedai before? If so, what about all her policies up to that point? Can they be re-examined by the Hall?

 

She has to weigh whether that difficulty outweighs the difficulty of possible dislike or even hatred from some.

[pattyruss]

I think it makes her an arrogant prat.

 

It doesn't make her less of an Aes Sedai, however. Legally, she's 100% correct in this, and to an extent, she's politically astute to not do so. If she takes the test, it opens up a question: So, was she NOT Aes Sedai before? If so, what about all her policies up to that point? Can they be re-examined by the Hall?

 

She has to weigh whether that difficulty outweighs the difficulty of possible dislike or even hatred from some.

 

 

I agree with you about this making Egwene an arrogant prat but I still feel her avoiding to take part in the 100 weave test makes her less of an Aes Sedai, or perhaps not even an Aes Sedai at all.

 

The 100 weave test is a test to either award or deny Aes Sedai status to an Accepted candidate. Since passing this test is what ultimately decides if a woman is Aes Sedai or not, then anyone who fails the test or fails to take the test is not considered Aes Sedai (unless they are raised to Amyrlin Seat apparently). The 100 weave test is a test to demonstrate a woman's ability to maintain composure during times of extreme duress and to put matters of the White Tower before all else. While one can argue that Egwene went through a similar test in her efforts to reunite the White Tower (which is something that should be commended). That test however demonstrated Egwene's abilities as a political agent, proving that she has more than sufficient skills to take office as the Amyrlin Seat but not necessarily as an Aes Sedai. Egwene still has to demonstrate that she can maintain her composure with her weavings during times of extreme duress (which I have no doubt in my mind that she can) just like every other Aes Sedai had to do before her and every Aes Sedai will have to do after her. Until she does this, I don't think Egwene should be considered a 100% Aes Sedai. It's like what Morgase is often quoted as saying, if rulers don't follow the law then there is no law.

 

As for all of Egwene's previous policies, I don't think there is anything the Hall could about them if Egwene took the 100 weave test during her tenure. If I remember correctly, the Amyrlin Seat does not have to be an Aes Sedai in order to be the Amyrlin Seat. Since Aes Sedai status is not required by Tower law then Egwene's participation in the 100 weave test should not provide a legal basis for the Hall to redact her previous policies.

[Cyf]

It's more that legally, the Amyrlin Seat is Aes Sedai, but there's nothing in the law that says the person appointed has to be Aes Sedai /before/ becoming Amyrlin. it's a legal loophole. And I think the Hall might -- it's very political in there, after all.

 

Then again, I honestly have some doubts about the various tests you take in the Tower anyway. Testing weaving under pressure is one thing, but I doubt the Age of Legends versions of Aes Sedai had tests to ensure that the prospective person would put the White Tower (its equivalent, anyway, as the WT is post-breaking) ahead of everything else.

 

I think originally, they were tested for ethics, and the willingness to put them ahead of their own interests. As time went on, and the White Tower became arrogant and corrupt, it equated 'put ethics ahead of own interests' as 'sacrifice everything for the glory of the White Tower'. And so things slowly went downhill.

[sleepinghour]

If I remember correctly, Egwene states in the ToM that she will not go through the 100 weave Aes Sedai test (I believe Egwene was talking to herself when she made this claim.) Egwene claimed that she was already an Aes Sedai because being raised to the Amyrlin Seat granted Egwene her Aes Sedai status.

 

In TGS she claimed she would, but seems to have changed her mind in ToM.

 

"Let it no longer be thought that I can avoid keeping the Three Oaths," Egwene announced. "Let it no longer be breathed that I am not fully Aes Sedai." None of them said anything about her not having taken the test to gain the shawl. She would see to that another day.

--The Gathering Storm, Sealed to the Flame

 

Egwene had no intention of going through the testing herself, and didn't need to. The law was specific. By being made Amyrlin, she had become Aes Sedai.

--Towers of Midnight, A Vow

[nogoodatnames]

Also a reason not to take the test, well the sitters are responsable for giving the test. Including the content, and the pass/fail requirement. Egwene isn't that popular with the sitters, they would just make it so hard that it's impossible to pass, or fail her on a minor detail. They almost did that with Nyneave.

[randsc]

You don't need to be a priest to become Pontiff of the Catholic Church. But once you become Pope, you're a priest.

[dwn]

Egwene has a very valid reason for not taking the test. If she pushes to take the test herself, it implies that she believes she isn't actually Aes Sedai yet, regardless of the legal loophole of the Amyrlin. That could easily encourage the Hall to further try to undermine her authority, which would lead to more divisions among the Aes Sedai.

 

-- dwn

[Kaznen]

From NS I got the impression if you take the test within the 3 chances you have if you fail you're dead. There isn't a cop out option during the test. And I figured the calm and collected premise of the test was you couldn't pass if you lost control and started to panic.

 

I didn't understand why the AS tried to say Nyn failed. She went through the test and did her 100 weaves and lived, she did what was required. Because she didn't keep her cool doesn't matter. She was able to still channel and do her stupid weaves.

[JSSheridan]

One thing that bugs me about the confrontation between Egwene and Mesaana; it seems like the one with the bigger ego wins that contest.

[dwn]

One thing that bugs me about the confrontation between Egwene and Mesaana; it seems like the one with the bigger ego wins that contest.

 

Egwene bolstered her own resolve and planted the notion in Mesaana that Mesaana had to defeat the Amyrlin, not the woman. Then Egwene played into that idea and used T'A'R to encourage Mesaana to commit to the impossible task of making an abstract concept--the Amyrlin Seat--bow down to her.

 

To use an analogy, Mesaana was tricked into a staring contest with a statue.

 

-- dwn

[beaverensis]

By the end of ToM the White Tower is actually in a very good position to deal with the Seanchan, because Teslyn's group has arrived in Tar Valon.

 

Teslyn and Edesina know the damane kennels in Ebou Dar well enough to Travel their. Bethamin and Seta obviously no longer think leashing women is right, and feel it's their duty to deal with the problem. They would also likely know where the damane are kept in many other Seanchan held cities. Leilwin also thinks leashing women is wrong, and must have a reason to want to go to Tar Valon (it's now even more likely she's the Seanchan woman with a sword, the wavering face being her Egeanin/Leilwin conflict). Juilin wants to see the Seanchan squished for what they did to Thera, and he's very familiar with skulking about the palace in Ebou Dar.

 

Teslyn, Joline, Edesina, Bethamin and Seta, at least, know Tuon can be taught to channel.

 

The Aes Sedai know the Seanchan likely have Travelling by now, and some would certainly be working to mitigate that threat. I expect a second Seanchan raid of the Tower would be far less successful. Also, given that danger, I don't see the Tower twiddling their thumbs over the problem.

 

All this adds up to the Aes Sedai striking back at the Seanchan. A carefully planned attack to capture damane or sul'dam could easily cripple the Seanchan without much collateral damage to the empire's soldiers or political structure. Alternatively, getting Tuon to start channeling would force her to deal head-on with the damane problem herself.

 

-- dwn

 

 

this is really well thought out. things i hadn't even begun to put together. i truly hope this happens and egwene is given the opportunity to free suffa from the a'dam. i love to see how Brandon handles it.

 

 

cheers

[knutz]

From NS I got the impression if you take the test within the 3 chances you have if you fail you're dead. There isn't a cop out option during the test. And I figured the calm and collected premise of the test was you couldn't pass if you lost control and started to panic.

 

I didn't understand why the AS tried to say Nyn failed. She went through the test and did her 100 weaves and lived, she did what was required. Because she didn't keep her cool doesn't matter. She was able to still channel and do her stupid weaves.

 

They tried to say that Nyn failed because:

1) She ran away from danger instead of walking away.

2) She went back for Lan

 

However, it did bring up something that explains Egwene. Not why she won't take the test, but why I agree with her.

 

It isn't the test that makes you Aes Sedai, it's the vote of the sitters after the test. These sitters have already voted Egwene in as Aes Sedae when they stood for her as Amerlyn Seat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It isn't the test that makes you Aes Sedai, it's the vote of the sitters after the test. These sitters have already voted Egwene in as Aes Sedae when they stood for her as Amerlyn Seat.

 

Well, as was pointed out above, you can also fail by not surviving the test, so it isn't entirely political. ( Assuming one or more of the testers isn't deliberately trying to kill the testee. )