The Black Tower

[Zentari]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before but is it REALLY the corruption made by a myrddraal? Personally the first thing that came to my mind was that they were somehow corrupted (with the myrddraal circle being the conclusion I jumped on).However , the more I though of it,the more it didn't stick.Sure , it seemed plausible but it seemed too direct.The other character in the series that were somehow manipulated into becoming darkfriends were somehow unable to betray their own etc until they died (well, no precisely but still...).If such accuracy or level of control manipulation is achievable , why go to that extremes ? It only makes them stand out more.

 

That's when I remember the mindtrap's description: should it be crushed , the person would become a mindless puppet seeing through his/her eyes but unable to even scream.It made me cringe how it was described that there was something missing/dead in their eyes.Granted this has more holes that the bore ; no idea how the circle binds channelers, how it would be manageable to get a mindtrap working etc but the description seemed more fit to me.

 

Just my two cents.

[everetc]

In terms of the looking, we've already scene Forsaken disguise their appearances and abilities to channel amongst a group of people for long periods, in some cases among those who know illusion, the Mirror of the Mists, and even the inverting weaves trick. Mesaana as Danelle in the Tower, Moghedien as Marigan and as the servant in Tanchico, Lanfear as Sylvase, Else, Keille, and Selene. We know Rand knows a weave that can disguise someone, why not Moridin. Plus, the dismissive POV also misses the fact that Bashere did not, in fact, recognize Taim at first.

 

Additionally, Taim uses phrases we've only seen 2nd Agers uses, uses phrases (LoC rule) and instruments (Dream Spike) we've only seen made available to the Chosen. He knows weaves only known to 2nd Agers (how to test for the Talent). He sends LTT into a rage. He cringes more than any other (including Logain) at orders from Rand. He uses a sigil only used by Sammael and Be'lal (the fist holding the lightning), but while theirs used steel and silver, his uses gold, indicating he is ABOVE them. He uses Moridin's colors (Black and Red). And now he is starting to stand like Rand, with one hand behind his back. His frequent recruiting parties could also have sought out items of the power (which helps explain his stash), maybe he also raided the Great Holding in Tear (which explains the visit to the Finns when they held Lanfear, the other doorway's destruction, and the added wards on Callandor that gave Narishma trouble).

 

Pretty much said everything I was trying to express and thinking. Just so many pointing, flashing, neon-signs to not consider it. Again, could all be a ploy, but a damn good one if it is. And I agree with the mention about Moridin/Taim hiding his identity from another Forsaken, it isn't like they cooperate or even tell eachother their motives/intentions anyway. Chaos begets chaos.

[Blade]

Okay, I read through about 8 pages just checking to see if anyone had posted this theory on things, so there's only about 3 pages that I didn't read about the men getting additional power quickly, but if you'll recall rand's fat man angreal went missing after the battle of dumai's wells. I've been thinking taim's been keeping that his ace in the hole the whole time, but what if the black tower also has channelers that can make angreal now. This is just my personal little theory, though why they haven't had Elayne making angreal yet is beyond me.

[Mr Ares]

Additionally, Taim uses phrases we've only seen 2nd Agers uses, uses phrases (LoC rule) and instruments (Dream Spike) we've only seen made available to the Chosen. He knows weaves only known to 2nd Agers (how to test for the Talent). He sends LTT into a rage. He cringes more than any other (including Logain) at orders from Rand. He uses a sigil only used by Sammael and Be'lal (the fist holding the lightning), but while theirs used steel and silver, his uses gold, indicating he is ABOVE them. He uses Moridin's colors (Black and Red). And now he is starting to stand like Rand, with one hand behind his back. His frequent recruiting parties could also have sought out items of the power (which helps explain his stash), maybe he also raided the Great Holding in Tear (which explains the visit to the Finns when they held Lanfear, the other doorway's destruction, and the added wards on Callandor that gave Narishma trouble).

 

Man, that a LOT of clues. I'm not saying for sure one way or another, but unless a doubter wants to try to explain them all away, it's hard for me to take that argument too seriously. Sometimes a duck is a duck. Graendal killed Asmo. Mesaana was Danelle. Something is up with Emarin and Taim.

Something is indeed up with Taim. But allow this doubter to try and explain away some of your clues: Taim was trained by Ishamael. If we accept this hypothesis, how much of your evidence does it answer? Well, as a Darkfriend, he could easily have been told to let the Lord of Chaos rule, he could pick up his master's use of "so-called Aiel", therefore that is done in imitation of Moridin, he dislikes being seen as Rand's inferior, he was taught the test by Ishy, or maybe he just figured it out for himself (we've seen 3rd Agers do that more than once), that he uses a sigil with no known relation to Moridin isn't an indication of him being Moridin (although he is considered a possibility for the person who sent the Trollocs to Lord Algarin's manor in KoD - that was apparantly done by Sammael, who we know to be dead), and his use of black and red is either in imitation or he just likes those colours. So, what does that leave? If we accept that Taim was a Darkfriend, possibly trained by Ishamael, then we have most of his quirks explained. Given that Taim=Moridin has its own problems as a theory - the contradictory orders to the Asha'man, which serve no purpose other than to confuse them and make them less likely to succeed - then this theory is surely as strong.

[didymos]

While the 4 stooges getting orders both from Taim and Moridin does contradict this theory, Moridin may have just been hiding his position from other FS. Was he even Nae'blis at the end of TPoD?

 

 

Yes, he was: Cyndane informs Graendal of his status and how she must serve Moridin and she doesn't buy it. Then Shaidar Haran appears and tells her what's what. That was Chapter 12 in aPoD. I highly doubt Graendal was the only Chosen to get that particular message. It's also pretty clear that Moridin was basically always Nae'blis. The Great Lord just let the others think they had a shot.

 

Also, Moridin knew quite well that the 4 had no chance of killing Rand, so he wasn't risking anything, IMHO.

 

Yeah, except for the fact that he really should have died when they struck in Cairhien. He'd only just left the room they completely annihilated, and he could have easily been killed by palace shrapnel. Dashiva almost pulled it off shortly after that. Only that weird shield weave that came from LTT saved him that time. There's effectively zero chance Moridin could have predicted that. You can't even invoke the "Oh, but it's just the Pattern" thing as an excuse: Ishamael/Moridin knows perfectly well that killing Rand has always been possible, just as turning him to the Shadow was always possible. Otherwise, he never would have tried either in the first place. Yes, unfulfilled prophecies and all that. Thing is, they only get fulfilled if the Shadow doesn't screw things up. Just like how if Mat hadn't gone to Rhuidean, he would have side-stepped his fate and placed all sorts of things in doubt.

[Guest]

Luckers, can we get a new thread to discuss Logain? i would really like to get some speculation going as to where he is/has been doing etc

 

ty

[Sharaman]

Yes

if Lightside 3rd Age channelers can find/ rediscover ways to use the power why can't a dark-side channeler?

If LTT could inspire jealousy and hate amongst his friends and subordinates without treating them badly, why not Rand (who isn't precisely nice about the way he treats friends and subordinates)?

If Moiraine and other nobles can learn and study the Old Tongue and old lore, why can't a Saldean Darksider of some education and a curiosity about the AoL?

Obviously Taim has a connection with Moridin, equally obviously Taim is a very strong channeler with a talent for organising people.

Ishy was free for years - why wouldn't he influence a 3rd Ager with an inclination to the DarkSide who was in the Forsaken league in terms of power?

Far less of a stretch than Taim=Moridin.

[Jeangray]

Yeah, except for the fact that he really should have died when they struck in Cairhien. He'd only just left the room they completely annihilated, and he could have easily been killed by palace shrapnel. Dashiva almost pulled it off shortly after that.

 

Well, judging by what Moridin told Graendal about the difficulties of killing Perrin in ToM, he was well aware that an assassination attempt on an even stronger ta'veren wouldn't succeed. And he was surprised and furious when he learned about unanticipated participation of Dashiva. BTW, according to Kisman, Moridin told them to "kill Rand if they must", so it isn't like his orders really contradicted Taim's.

 

Ishamael/Moridin knows perfectly well that killing Rand has always been possible, just as turning him to the Shadow was always possible.

 

And of course, Ishydin is the one FS who had managed to successfully overcome a strong ta'veren at least once. Doesn't mean that some minor Dreadlords would have a chance.

 

Re: 3rd Age channelers (re)inventing stuff, they clearly have the Pattern helping them. After all, for 3K years prior or so advancement was much slower. Darkside channelers wouldn't profit from this, just like the Pattern, according to RJ, wouldn't make a DF ta'veren. It tries to perpetuate itself, after all.

[didymos]

BTW, according to Kisman, Moridin told them to "kill Rand if they must", so it isn't like his orders really contradicted Taim's.

 

It does in intent: Moridin wanted Rand's stuff most of all, and would have been cool with it if Rand happened to get killed in the process. Taim wanted Rand dead, period. Don't bother showing your face if you fail again. Two totally different mindsets are implied by the two orders.

[didymos]

Well, judging by what Moridin told Graendal about the difficulties of killing Perrin in ToM, he was well aware that an assassination attempt on an even stronger ta'veren wouldn't succeed.

 

No. He "knew" because in that specific case he thought he had deciphered a prophetic roadmap that had to be followed. Prophecy and the ta'veren mechanism are not identical. Of course, he interpreted the thing wrong anyway.

 

ETA: Oh, and if that was the case, why did make a point of telling all the Forsaken to try and kill either Mat or Perrin in KoD? He obviously thought it was worth trying. He even said that the fact that they were ta'veren made them "easily found". Graendal disagrees about the "easily" but that's because the Pattern is wigging out, which doesn't exactly reinforce the notion that being ta'veren is impenetrable protection.

[nolirion]

While the 4 stooges getting orders both from Taim and Moridin does contradict this theory, Moridin may have just been hiding his position from other FS. Was he even Nae'blis at the end of TPoD?

 

 

Yes, he was: Cyndane informs Graendal of his status and how she must serve Moridin and she doesn't buy it. Then Shaidar Haran appears and tells her what's what. That was Chapter 12 in aPoD. I highly doubt Graendal was the only Chosen to get that particular message. It's also pretty clear that Moridin was basically always Nae'blis. The Great Lord just let the others think they had a shot.

 

Also, Moridin knew quite well that the 4 had no chance of killing Rand, so he wasn't risking anything, IMHO.

 

Yeah, except for the fact that he really should have died when they struck in Cairhien. He'd only just left the room they completely annihilated, and he could have easily been killed by palace shrapnel. Dashiva almost pulled it off shortly after that. Only that weird shield weave that came from LTT saved him that time. There's effectively zero chance Moridin could have predicted that. You can't even invoke the "Oh, but it's just the Pattern" thing as an excuse: Ishamael/Moridin knows perfectly well that killing Rand has always been possible, just as turning him to the Shadow was always possible. Otherwise, he never would have tried either in the first place. Yes, unfulfilled prophecies and all that. Thing is, they only get fulfilled if the Shadow doesn't screw things up. Just like how if Mat hadn't gone to Rhuidean, he would have side-stepped his fate and placed all sorts of things in doubt.

Yet Morri helped Rand at logoth

[WhiskyJack]

I am bit confused about those zombie channelers. Are they turned? Looks like they are brain dead now. What good they be if they cannot think properly.

[didymos]

Yet Morri helped Rand at logoth

 

What's your point? He didn't care to see him dead that day. We already know that, because he told Rand. Besides, that's totally unrelated to whether or not Rand could have been killed there or elsewhere, which is what's under discussion. Which, actually, Moridin's actions in Shadar Logoth show was quite possible: had he not intervened there, which he did to enforce the DO's orders, Rand would have died.

 

Not to mention this (bolding mine):

 

]scifi.com chat 1 January 2000[/b]

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

[nolirion]

Yet Morri helped Rand at logoth

 

What's your point? He didn't care to see him dead that day. We already know that, because he told Rand. Besides, that's totally unrelated to whether or not Rand could have been killed there or elsewhere, which is what's under discussion. Which, actually, Moridin's actions in Shadar Logoth show was quite possible: had he not intervened there, Rand would have died.

 

Not to mention this (bolding mine):

 

]scifi.com chat 1 January 2000[/b]

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

But it show that Morri Wanted Rand to survive even if it meant killing Samael

[WhiskyJack]

Yet Morri helped Rand at logoth

 

What's your point? He didn't care to see him dead that day. We already know that, because he told Rand. Besides, that's totally unrelated to whether or not Rand could have been killed there or elsewhere, which is what's under discussion. Which, actually, Moridin's actions in Shadar Logoth show was quite possible: had he not intervened there, Rand would have died.

 

Not to mention this (bolding mine):

 

]scifi.com chat 1 January 2000[/b]

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

But it show that Morri Wanted Rand to survive even if it meant killing Samael

 

 

How? Rand didn't kill Sammael. Sammael died because of his own arrogance and stupidity. Moridin saved Rand, that's all.

[didymos]

But it show that Morri Wanted Rand to survive even if it meant killing Samael

 

Yeah, at that time, because that's what the Dark One wanted. When circumstances changed, Moridin had no problem saying it was OK for Rand to die, and that means the DO said it was OK. He also had no problem taking a shot at it while he was still Ishamael.

[nateand]

Yet Morri helped Rand at logoth

 

What's your point? He didn't care to see him dead that day. We already know that, because he told Rand. Besides, that's totally unrelated to whether or not Rand could have been killed there or elsewhere, which is what's under discussion. Which, actually, Moridin's actions in Shadar Logoth show was quite possible: had he not intervened there, Rand would have died.

 

Not to mention this (bolding mine):

 

]scifi.com chat 1 January 2000[/b]

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

But it show that Morri Wanted Rand to survive even if it meant killing Samael

 

 

How? Rand didn't kill Sammael. Sammael died because of his own arrogance and stupidity. Moridin saved Rand, that's all.

 

 

Moridin tried to balefire Sammael, along with Rand. The only reason one of them wasn't successful was that the streams crossed and things got a little crazy. It definitely appeared that Moridin had every intention of killing sammael.

[didymos]

Moridin tried to balefire Sammael, along with Rand. The only reason one of them wasn't successful was that the streams crossed and things got a little crazy. It definitely appeared that Moridin had every intention of killing sammael.

 

No, Moridin and Rand simultaneously balefired Mashadar, which was rushing towards them. He also flat out told Rand he would not kill Sammael for him.

[Byzantine279]

No, Moridin and rand were both trying to balefire mashadar to save their own lives, that is when the streams crossed. Though Moridin did indeed throw Sammael to his death by helping Rand out (though that turned out not to matter due to mashadar, it seems Sammael got too focused on Rand and forgot where he was fighting).

[nateand]

Ah, right you are, I mis-remembered. Sorry about that.

[WhiskyJack]

Yet Morri helped Rand at logoth

 

What's your point? He didn't care to see him dead that day. We already know that, because he told Rand. Besides, that's totally unrelated to whether or not Rand could have been killed there or elsewhere, which is what's under discussion. Which, actually, Moridin's actions in Shadar Logoth show was quite possible: had he not intervened there, Rand would have died.

 

Not to mention this (bolding mine):

 

]scifi.com chat 1 January 2000[/b]

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

But it show that Morri Wanted Rand to survive even if it meant killing Samael

 

 

How? Rand didn't kill Sammael. Sammael died because of his own arrogance and stupidity. Moridin saved Rand, that's all.

 

 

Moridin tried to balefire Sammael, along with Rand. The only reason one of them wasn't successful was that the streams crossed and things got a little crazy. It definitely appeared that Moridin had every intention of killing sammael.

 

 

Moridin came into the fight late, allowing Rand and Sammael to duke it out first. This leads me to believe that he would have let Rand die. Only when Sammael was out of picture, he decided to help Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

BTW, according to Kisman, Moridin told them to "kill Rand if they must", so it isn't like his orders really contradicted Taim's.

 

It does in intent: Moridin wanted Rand's stuff most of all, and would have been cool with it if Rand happened to get killed in the process. Taim wanted Rand dead, period. Don't bother showing your face if you fail again. Two totally different mindsets are implied by the two orders.

 

You're assuming it was really Taim who gave that order.

 

When Cyndane dropped the bombshell about Rand having the Choeden Kal access keys and planning to use them to Cleanse saidin, three Forsaken displayed dismay, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, and Graendal.

 

Subsequently, proxies searched Dobraine's quarters and nearly killed him, and ransacked Bashere's tent injuring Diera. Both sets of burglers had perfectly forged authorizations for their activities. Graendal is the Dark's forger.

 

Slayer made an attempt to kill Rand and MIn at the Inn in Far Madding at the behest of a heavily disguised patron. Likely Aran'gar.

 

'Taim' issues a kill Rand at all costs order, and 'Sammael' sends 100,000 Shadowspawn into the ways to kill Rand at all costs. When the four stooges have trouble carrying out their orders, Dashiva steps in to help. I think Osan'gar is good for the Sammael impersonation, too. If he impersonated Sammael, why wouldn't he also impersonate Taim?

[WhiskyJack]

Osan'gar impersonated Sammael?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Osan'gar impersonated Sammael?

 

Somebody sure did. He's a logical candidate. Osan'gar/Dashiva/Aginor was totally freaked by the idea that Rand might actually be able to Cleanse saidin.

 

Aran'gar is a better fit for Slayer's patron. Graendal is perfect for the looters that hit Dobraine and Bashere. Process of elimination makes the impersonator Aginor.

[WhiskyJack]

Osan'gar impersonated Sammael?

 

Somebody sure did. He's a logical candidate. Osan'gar/Dashiva/Aginor was totally freaked by the idea that Rand might actually be able to Cleanse saidin.

 

 

I am pretty sure other forsaken were freaked out too. Dashiva'c concern were academic. There are many "logical" candidates, Demandred being one of them.