The Black Tower

[Sharaman]

I don't think the soul can lose connection / control of the body and still leave a body capable of channeling.

 

Alright. But you don't know that, so...

 

A gray man also experiences everything and has similar motor control while having its soul severed.

 

And a gray man is not the same thing as someone who's been mindtrapped. And their souls are not "severed", or I assume they're not because it's not exactly clear what you mean by "severed". Anyway, they're removed completely. Gone. Hence the term "Soulless". Gray Men are also autonomous, not automatons. And again: it is nowhere stated that breaking a mindtrap severs the soul. Or removes it entirely. Souls are never even mentioned in any of the material about mindtraps.

 

Pevara would have noticed the loss of channeling ability in Tarna.

 

True. Now, all you have to do is prove that breaking a mindtrap results in a loss of channeling ability.

I can't, else I would have asserted it, rather than suggested it as a possibility.

The only info we have about mindtraps is pretty much from that chapter.

I'm assuming that the severing of self equal loss of channeling ability.

The self is tied to the soul, the soul is vital for channeling, etc.

[griz]

I believe as the better channelers came into the BT, Taim would take them under his wing. When the time was right, he would convert them. We have to remember too that he wants them holding the power at all times. This would make it difficult to detect anything going on with the power since they are all using it. Nothing would be out of the ordinary. We've seen with 2 of the mind traps that they're still themselves mentally, they are just aware of the fact they could be killed at a moments notice. Nobody has been watching the BT for some time, and with no rules in place it is ripe for abuse. I think the 13x13 has been built up throughout the series and would have to come into play somewhere. If Taim was not converted that way initially, then he had to have been a DF from the get go. My guess he was given an ultimatum to join or die since he does not have the same, creepy look.

[Shard]

Waiiiiiit. What happened to Tarna? I completely missed that. Urgh, need to reread already -_-

 

When Tarna returned and spoke to Pevara, she was very cold and her eyes 'soulless', almost an automaton. People have speculated that this is a result of the 13x13 Turning or a result of a soultrap that was broken.

 

I'm hoping whatever it was can be fixed. I really liked Tarna. :)

 

I want Tarna fixed as well but either Mindtrap or 13x13 sound like unrecoverable.

[Cyf]

I want Tarna fixed as well but either Mindtrap or 13x13 sound like unrecoverable.

 

Well, Jordan said a 13x13 cannot be fixed 'without aid'. We don't know what he meant though. I would assume you can't willingly change yourself back. But is aid outside aid, something like Nynaeve's trick with madness, or is it something even beyond that? Who knows.

[Zentari]

True. Now, all you have to do is prove that breaking a mindtrap results in a loss of channeling ability.

I doubt it.If that was the case , why mindtrap channelers in the second age instead of killing them outright or using the 13x13 trick ? They must stand to gain something more in order to use that method instead of the others and I don't see the point when they loose a crucial ability.

[WhiskyJack]

I got the idea from rereading CoS that mindtrap itself has no effect on one's personality. It's only when someone crushes the your mind trap that you become a zombie basically. And there is no escaping it, even if you are the one holding your own mindtrap. You cannot undo it and once it breaks, you are toast. But we also don't know the after affect of 13x13. Have we seen any 13x13 character?

[kes]

I definitely favor 13x13 over mindtraps - we haven't seen personality changes in the others who are mindtrapped, and it just would fit better with what we do know. Admittedly more by feel than anything else.

 

But ignoring that, who can't wait for the supposedly weak Androl to learn deathgates and start showing Taim's Dedicated who is really deadly? Since he is naturally gifted at gateways, he will be formidable.

[WhiskyJack]

I definitely favor 13x13 over mindtraps - we haven't seen personality changes in the others who are mindtrapped, and it just would fit better with what we do know. Admittedly more by feel than anything else.

 

We have only two examples of mind trap and zero example of 13x13. Moggy said that if someone crushes your mindtrap, you become a zombie. Moridin has kept her mind trap intact.

 

But ignoring that, who can't wait for the supposedly weak Androl to learn deathgates and start showing Taim's Dedicated who is really deadly? Since he is naturally gifted at gateways, he will be formidable.

 

 

Death gates really have meaning only for shadowspawn. For humans, they are simply gateways.

[kes]

Death gates really have meaning only for shadowspawn. For humans, they are simply gateways.

 

Heh, I forgot that it was passing them through that killed them. Well, I suppose he can just go around shooting off mini gates edge on.

 

Edit - I'd imagine a tiny gate opened in someones spinal cord would also be pretty effective, especially given all the precision leather work that he has been doing.

[didymos]

Death gates really have meaning only for shadowspawn. For humans, they are simply gateways.

 

Yeah, rapidly moving ones that snap open and closed repeatedly, and that still have ridiculously sharp-edges. The weaves also have some extra stuff that standard Traveling versions don't. In any case, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a deathgate swarm. Just because I might get lucky and fall through a fully open one with no ill-effects doesn't make them remotely safe.

[Fleety]

Well, Jordan said a 13x13 cannot be fixed 'without aid'. We don't know what he meant though. I would assume you can't willingly change yourself back. But is aid outside aid, something like Nynaeve's trick with madness, or is it something even beyond that? Who knows.

 

Jordan didnt say it cant be fixed without aid. He said it probably cant be fixed without aid. That leaves open the possibility that it could be fixed without aid, but is vague enough to drive a truck through. I'd say it can be fixed with aid, but that's a personal opinion. If your moral compass cant be made to point to Shayol Guyol, then it would stand to reason it cant be made to point to the Light.

[Durinax]

I thought he said it can be fixed without help, its just that often the people dont want to go back

[Aquarius]

By all logic I can think of, the Aes Sedai that would be turned by the 13x13 thing would still be bound by the treee Oaths, as long as they don't have acess to a Binder, right ?

[Cazajay]

I thought he said it can be fixed without help, its just that often the people dont want to go back

 

correct he said it can't be reversed without aid as their personality has been changed to such a degree they probably feel normal even though they are now capable of doing evil deeds which they didn't before.

13x13 IMO is what was used to convert Tarna and Mezor, I didn't get the impression they were Zombie like at all, I just got the impression they were different their eyes were darker more menacing but they are perfectly able to hold a conversation.

Their morals have been reversed it's simple to deduce that, forget the Mindtrap business, we have seen this used and heard Moghieden's PoV Tarna doesn't look or act like what she described.

[Cazajay]

Iv had a re-read of ACOS and the part that is the Watchers PoV intrigues me.

How do we know this is Moridin that is watching Graendal and Sammael with the Shaido? What gave this assumption? Easy it's the same gut instincts that give me the assumption Taim isn't the same Taim anymore that Bashere once chased.

Im happy to admit that Im in the camp that believes Taim is Moridin and it's not just gut instinct there is alot of foreshadowing around Taim that gives pretty convincing

evidence.

 

1) Taim used the phrase "so-called Aeil" so did the Watcher

2) The Foreshadowing of Taim seeming to have flames in his eyes seen by Pevara and several others on different occasions (Ba'alzamon/Ishmael had that trick of the eyes seemingly effected by temper or emotion)

3) He favours the same colours as Ishmael once did and when Rand was connected to Moridin so did he for a while. For those who dismiss this as a "so what I prefer red/black this doesn't make me Moridin" I hate to point out but you should all know by now that colours in the world of WoT are significant they mean something specific to the plot otherwise we wouldn't have had a pov from Pevara pointing out every tile and ornament she saw at Taim's palace.

4) since the weird connection Rand had to Moridin, Taim hasn't been seen on screen with Rand, however Taim is starting to copy the way he holds his damaged hand.

5) The whole kill Rand order from Taim, was changed slightly by Moridin to kill him if you must but bring me his possessions.

Let me ask you this was Taim's kill order before Rand let it slip to Taim he meant to Cleanse Saidin? Taim was impressed said it would take massive amounts of the power and said he would need a Sa'angreal. If Im right the Moridin kill order came after Taim learned Rand had powerful objects and we know from the horde he has with Graendal's pov that he covets those. Probably why Moridin then asked Kisman to bring him whatever was in his

possession an order from the Chosen would be obeyed but from the M'Hael? Kisman may decide to keep items of power and claim he didn't find anything or worse bargain with the items by giving them to Demandred.

So as you can see the new Moridin order versus Taim's first order makes sense.

[dwn]

I thought he said it can be fixed without help, its just that often the people dont want to go back

 

correct he said it can't be reversed without aid as their personality has been changed to such a degree they probably feel normal even though they are now capable of doing evil deeds which they didn't before.

13x13 IMO is what was used to convert Tarna and Mezor, I didn't get the impression they were Zombie like at all, I just got the impression they were different their eyes were darker more menacing but they are perfectly able to hold a conversation.

Their morals have been reversed it's simple to deduce that, forget the Mindtrap business, we have seen this used and heard Moghieden's PoV Tarna doesn't look or act like what she described.

 

This is all a matter of interpretation, but here are the relevant passages. To me, they describe something way beyond a personality shift. Calling it a 'zombie' look isn't far off the mark.

 

There was something different in Tarna's eyes, something cold. She'd always been a distant one, but this was worse.

 

Tarna smiled, a grimace that looked completely unnatural on her face. Like the smile on the lips of a corpse.

 

The coldness--almost lifelessness--she'd seen in Tarna's eyes still chilled her.

 

-- ToM, Gateways, pp. 774-775

And he saw what Norley had seen. Something was deeply wrong, something not-quite-alive inside those eyes. This didn't seem to be a man, but a parody of one. A shadow stuffed inside human skin.

 

-- ToM, Something Wrong, p. 819

 

-- dwn

[Annia]

Back to Naeff, I'm surprised at his elevation to assistant-to-the-Dragon ( as far as storytelling goes), I had assumed Narishma was being groomed for that. It's just surprising that the other Asha'man have been moved to the backdrop.

 

Yeah same. Naeff showed up in TGS out of nowhere and since then has probably been the Asha`man in the books the most. Flinn and Narishma have taken a bit of a backseat. Its kind of cool that WoT is able to introduce new characters like that and have them be relativily important, but I want some Narishma love!

 

Think positively: The fact that we did not see them probably just means that they were sent to do some cool stuff by Rand. Afterall, we didn't even get to see what Rand did most of the month!

[Annia]

Confusing yes but one time two DF did go blind was when Rand was channeling. They weren't looking at him and still they went blind. So may be OP amps up the "blinding" juice or something...

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what was up with that. I'm leaning toward it having something to do with what Rand said about that Storm of Light thing not being the best idea as he risked a premature fight with DO by doing it. Then there's that "And He shall take our eyes" bit in the Shadow prophecy at the end.

 

Nobody else thinks it likely that Rand would be able to incapasitate all the DF in the BT just by showing up and picking up a fight? I admit that it does seem to be a bit too easy...

[gary0044187]

Confusing yes but one time two DF did go blind was when Rand was channeling. They weren't looking at him and still they went blind. So may be OP amps up the "blinding" juice or something...

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what was up with that. I'm leaning toward it having something to do with what Rand said about that Storm of Light thing not being the best idea as he risked a premature fight with DO by doing it. Then there's that "And He shall take our eyes" bit in the Shadow prophecy at the end.

 

Nobody else thinks it likely that Rand would be able to incapasitate all the DF in the BT just by showing up and picking up a fight? I admit that it does seem to be a bit too easy...

In a recent book egwene dreamed or foretold a cleansing of the black tower by AS. My guess is next book, Rand, his loyal Ashaman, and all the female channelers (AS, Aeil, and Windfinders) he can gather are going to drop like a load of bricks on the black tower. What I expect is many true DF's killed, some forced ones captured (for possible healing), but many/most escaping (dark one needs channelers to make the fight difficult in the end). I expect this in the first half of the book.

Death gates really have meaning only for shadowspawn. For humans, they are simply gateways.

consider a bunch of little ones slicing through the air at you. with big ones you might get lucky and not get cut by the ultrafine edges, with the little ones, not so much.

[Zentari]

In a recent book egwene dreamed or foretold a cleansing of the black tower by AS.

When did THAT happen ?

[Mr Ares]

Iv had a re-read of ACOS and the part that is the Watchers PoV intrigues me.

How do we know this is Moridin that is watching Graendal and Sammael with the Shaido? What gave this assumption? Easy it's the same gut instincts that give me the assumption Taim isn't the same Taim anymore that Bashere once chased.

The rest of us just looked at the evidence.

Im happy to admit that Im in the camp that believes Taim is Moridin and it's not just gut instinct there is alot of foreshadowing around Taim that gives pretty convincing

evidence.

3) He favours the same colours as Ishmael once did and when Rand was connected to Moridin so did he for a while. For those who dismiss this as a "so what I prefer red/black this doesn't make me Moridin" I hate to point out but you should all know by now that colours in the world of WoT are significant they mean something specific to the plot otherwise we wouldn't have had a pov from Pevara pointing out every tile and ornament she saw at Taim's palace.

There are numerous instances of description of little to no relevance to the plot.

4) since the weird connection Rand had to Moridin, Taim hasn't been seen on screen with Rand, however Taim is starting to copy the way he holds his damaged hand.

I think you might need a re-read of PoD.

5) The whole kill Rand order from Taim, was changed slightly by Moridin to kill him if you must but bring me his possessions.

Let me ask you this was Taim's kill order before Rand let it slip to Taim he meant to Cleanse Saidin? Taim was impressed said it would take massive amounts of the power and said he would need a Sa'angreal. If Im right the Moridin kill order came after Taim learned Rand had powerful objects and we know from the horde he has with Graendal's pov that he covets those. Probably why Moridin then asked Kisman to bring him whatever was in his

possession an order from the Chosen would be obeyed but from the M'Hael? Kisman may decide to keep items of power and claim he didn't find anything or worse bargain with the items by giving them to Demandred.

So as you can see the new Moridin order versus Taim's first order makes sense.

No, it doesn't. The two orders come in the same pov. Taim says one thing, Moridin says something a bit different. Why? Moridin is indifferent to the death, but killing Rand is what Taim wants. Why the difference? Why not just give one set of orders, as Moridin?

[Shard]

Well, Jordan said a 13x13 cannot be fixed 'without aid'. We don't know what he meant though. I would assume you can't willingly change yourself back. But is aid outside aid, something like Nynaeve's trick with madness, or is it something even beyond that? Who knows.

 

Jordan didnt say it cant be fixed without aid. He said it probably cant be fixed without aid. That leaves open the possibility that it could be fixed without aid, but is vague enough to drive a truck through. I'd say it can be fixed with aid, but that's a personal opinion. If your moral compass cant be made to point to Shayol Guyol, then it would stand to reason it cant be made to point to the Light.

 

He also said that the person had to WANT to change back and realise the had been changed. He said that kind of case would be very rare.

[aynatal2000]

The dream spike is on so no one will be able to make a way out of the Black Tower...but we know these cocky so and so's will remove the spike to Caemlyn so that when Aes Sedai/Wise One /Kin and Asha Man help converges there they will not be able to escape; ahem.

Egwene and Perrin show that not accepting common opinion and belief is a strong weapon in the Dream World... and all aid is going to end up in the dream in Caemlyn( or the nightmare if you please).

That Asha Men who are still loyal will prevail I think - Logain still has time to show up and fulfill his prophecy.

Why do I think he is outside in the Aes Sedai camp, shielded, waiting for Taim and his boyos to make their move.I wonder how many circles they will form... and how many Asha Men are also being shielded with him.

[analyticalkeys]

I am almost 100 percent sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

[TheAngryDruid]

He also said that the person had to WANT to change back and realise the had been changed. He said that kind of case would be very rare.

 

That was regarding the 13x13 turnee returning to the light unaided. That was the reason why it was so unlikely they could return on their own, because any scrap that would want to is probably gone or submerged. It doesn't really relate to a situation where there is "aid," whatever that mat be (13 light channelers, 13 Ogier, and 13 chora trees?).

 

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword. Why is that do you think? Hmmm, I wonder what it could be. And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's). Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage). Who else was wielding the TP at that time? And it makes no sense for a "pupil" to be granted something only Ishy and Graendal have been granted, even before Graendal was.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.