The Black Tower

[didymos]

I don't think he smiled until Rand chose Dashiva in Crown of Swords.

 

Nope. He smiled when Rand agreed to take one more Asha'man but insisted on choosing, but the smile was bogus. It was a Perrin POV, so we learn his scent while smiling was anger and extreme frustration. Then after that Rand randomly chose Dashiva, Taim had stopped smiling by then and his scent was surprised and irritated.

 

I think that Taim was happy, not surprised or angry that Rand chose Dashiva. He says the he would rather have put Rochaid or that lot with him, but he doesn't try real hard. Perrin says he smells mad, but he was always pissed.

 

You can't have it both ways: either Perrin can't smell anyone's mood, or Taim just happens to be magically exempt, thus allowing you to conveniently dismiss his anger and the lack of a "I'm so happy" scent. No, he was not happy. He wanted to choose, but Rand was not in the mood for discussion, so he bit his tongue. Then Rand cut him off when Taim tried to argue over Dashiva and ended the discussion by simply ignoring Taim, giving an order to Perrin, and walking away, at which point Taim stalked off in anger to gather the Asha'man and head back to the Black Tower.

[David Selig]

Slayer made an attempt to kill Rand and MIn at the Inn in Far Madding at the behest of a heavily disguised patron. Likely Aran'gar.

 

Just for clarification, wasn't Slayer trying to kill Lan and Nyn, since I seem to recall him saying that he would've liked to have killed his nephew and the wench? I also thought the benefactor was Moridin. My memory is slightly foggy there, so i could well be wrong.

Luc is Rand's uncle (brother to Tigraine). Isam is a cousin to Lan.

[Charlz Guybon]

I guess most of that 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome are going to end up in AMOL. That's fine though, because IIRC Sanderson originally said that AMOL would be the shortest of the three volumes and it just wouldn't feel right if the last book of the WOT wasn't big and fat.

[Guest]

I guess most of that 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome are going to end up in AMOL. That's fine though, because IIRC Sanderson originally said that AMOL would be the shortest of the three volumes and it just wouldn't feel right if the last book of the WOT wasn't big and fat.

 

agreed, to me it makes the most sense for the last book to be the biggest, both in terms of actions and wordcount. You really wanna feel like this book will take time to complete.

[TheAngryDruid]

I have not seen much discussion about Rands actions when he was offscreen in this book. After leaving the White Tower and before showing up in Tear Min believes that he is in Andor for three days. Do you think he was in the Black Tower? If so what do you think he was doing there?

 

I always attributed those days to Tar Valon. He appears to have walked down DM to Almen Bunt, and then set off walking to TV. From Siuans POV before the meeting, and Egwenes, we know a number of days have passed since Egwene was raised (and they noticed the ring around Dragonmount). While it is certainly possible he could have done other stuff, and it makes NO sense for him to waste 3 days in TV given all he has to do, it appears that is what he did.

 

More of a both isn't the 3 days before Tear, it is the 23 days after. All that is taken up in that time is the 1-2 day trip to Bandar Eban. Maradon and the Borderlanders were the 2 days before the meeting. So if Shayol Ghul was on day 28, I believe the Borderlanders were day 26, and Maradon about day 25. So, besides Bandar Eban, what did he do for the other part of the month? Nothing to help Lan, nothing with the Seanchan, not much at the BT, he appears to have blown the Sea Folk off. What?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Slayer made an attempt to kill Rand and MIn at the Inn in Far Madding at the behest of a heavily disguised patron. Likely Aran'gar.

 

Just for clarification, wasn't Slayer trying to kill Lan and Nyn, since I seem to recall him saying that he would've liked to have killed his nephew and the wench? I also thought the benefactor was Moridin. My memory is slightly foggy there, so i could well be wrong.

 

Luc is Rand's uncle. None of the Forsaken would need to be heavily disguised to commission Slayer to kill Lan and Nynaeve. Since Moridin has just given explicit orders to NOT kill Rand, and Slayer is being ordered to do just that, the patron needs a very heavy disguise to protect himself from Moridin's wrath, whether the attempt is successful or not.

[Sharaman]

I have not seen much discussion about Rands actions when he was offscreen in this book. After leaving the White Tower and before showing up in Tear Min believes that he is in Andor for three days. Do you think he was in the Black Tower? If so what do you think he was doing there?

 

I always attributed those days to Tar Valon. He appears to have walked down DM to Almen Bunt, and then set off walking to TV. From Siuans POV before the meeting, and Egwenes, we know a number of days have passed since Egwene was raised (and they noticed the ring around Dragonmount). While it is certainly possible he could have done other stuff, and it makes NO sense for him to waste 3 days in TV given all he has to do, it appears that is what he did.

 

More of a both isn't the 3 days before Tear, it is the 23 days after. All that is taken up in that time is the 1-2 day trip to Bandar Eban. Maradon and the Borderlanders were the 2 days before the meeting. So if Shayol Ghul was on day 28, I believe the Borderlanders were day 26, and Maradon about day 25. So, besides Bandar Eban, what did he do for the other part of the month? Nothing to help Lan, nothing with the Seanchan, not much at the BT, he appears to have blown the Sea Folk off. What?

He spent a total of 3 days away from Tear after nearly killing Tam.

First night in Ebou Dar,

Next night on DM doing VoG,

then he was in the WT (VoG+1).

Then he spent a day in Bandar Eban,

Then he rescued Maradon. (VoG +3/4)

After that, there's a biggish gap before he meets the Borderlanders (VoG +25) and lands up for the Field of M (VoG +26/27).

[Mr Ares]

Osan'gar impersonated Sammael?

Probably not. If he did, then we need a more complicated theory, because Rand didn't go to Lord Algarin's manor (where the Trollocs were sent) till after Osan'gar died. Therefore, he got them underway but someone else sent them to Tear. Therefore, you need to ask who the someone else was. Why should we accept the existence of a second person?

 

Regarding Taim/Ishy and Mr Ares' nice rebuttal. I'd say this: regarding the Sigil, the fact that Taim uses a sigil unrelated to Moridin is not the point, the fact that Taim uses the same sigil as Be'lal and Sammael, and with a more costly metal (gold instead of steel or silver) is. This indicates Forsaken status, and that he outranks Be'lal and Sammael. We know the Shadows other great general, Demandred, is NOT Taim. I thought this part of your rebuttal was fairly weak. As was the "he's just imitating" the red & black. Maybe he is a student, but that doesn't explain his access to the dreamspike. Or his aura that suggests TP usage. Something we've only seen Ishy/Moridin, Rand, and Graendal use (and maybe an instant from Aginor?).

The basic point of my argument is that Taim has many oddities, but they can all be explained in more than one way. A fairly popular theory is that Taim is a newly raised Chosen, a Third Ager trained by Ishy and given the Mark. The fact that parts of Taim's sigil are gilded (I would guess the lightning) might be indicative of nothing at all. We do not know what that sigil indicates, only that it has been used by two Chosen. It doesn't indicate Chosen status, nor that he stands higher. Or do you contend that Be'lal stood above Sammael? It's open to interpretation. It could be that all the Shadow's generals use it, and therefore Taim is now a general for the Shadow. As for red and black, I wear those colours with some frequency. Does that make me Moridin? Maybe he just likes those colours. The dreamspike is an easy one: that is Moridin's, but Moridin has given one to Graendal to use, so he could give one to Taim to use as well. The TP, we know others have had access to it in the past, besides Moridin, Graendal and Rand. Therefore use could be extended to Taim as well - in fact, Graendal having it and Rand using it weaken Taim=Moridin arguments - prior to TGS, we were told only Moridin had access any more. Now others have it as well. It's not exclusive to Moridin.

 

All the Taim=Moridin evidence can be explained in more than one way, and the orders they both give in WH make it unlikely that they are the same man. Not impossible, but I'd say the evidence leans towards Taim being Moridin's man rather than him being Moridin.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Osan'gar impersonated Sammael?

Probably not. If he did, then we need a more complicated theory, because Rand didn't go to Lord Algarin's manor (where the Trollocs were sent) till after Osan'gar died. Therefore, he got them underway but someone else sent them to Tear. Therefore, you need to ask who the someone else was. Why should we accept the existence of a second person?

 

I base that on the likelihood that all three of those who were upset by the idea of Rand Cleansing saidin trying to do something preemptive to stop him.

 

Nobody but Graendal had the forgery chops to forge the notes, so Dobraine and Bashere have to be her doing.

 

You could swap Osan'gar and Aran'gar, making Osan'gar Slayer's patron but the heavy disguise doesn't seem right for him to me. But, that's only my own feeling about the thoroughness of the disguise. Nothing concrete to back it other than Aran'gar thinking how disappointed Moridin was going to be about Rand becoming dead. Would he/she have more faith in Slayer or tons of Trollocs? Would Aginor or Balthamel be more likely to think of Trollocs as the solution to his problem?

 

My bet is Aran'gar would go for Slayer and Aginor/Osan'gar would go for his creation, the Trollocs.

 

Whoever you'd like to be the one impersonating Sam, somebody else still has to get word to the Shadowspawn hiding in the Ways so they know where to find Rand. Some traitor in his midst. Since Elza was still working diligently to deliver Rand to the DO in the Pit of Doom, it wasn't her, or her Warder.

 

One of those accompanying Logain and Bashere, or one of the two of them has to be that traitor. That second person. Which of those two sent word to "the man he met yesterday" that "there will be a few more than we talked about"? I take that to be the Warders that would be necessary to find the Aes Sedai traveling with Rand.

 

There is one very big problem with that attack though. Wherever Rand goes lately, you can always find Machin Shin at the nearest Waygate. Presumably those Trollocs and Myrrdraal used the Waygate closest to that Manor. So, how'd they get past the Black Wind?

[BladeDancer]

Since his epiphany on Dragonmount, Rand seems to have the ability to be able to tell a Darkfriend by looking into their eyes. Maybe he could use this ability in some way, to id those Asha'man who were loyal to him. If Rand went to the Black Tower or just met any of the Asha'man he would immediately be able to tell if they were Darkfriends or not.

 

Indeed this ability would have been extremely useful for Egwene in her attempts to root out Mesaana and the Black Ajah. It is just her luck that Rand got this ability just after the White Tower was cleansed! LOL.

[capuga]

Osan'gar impersonated Sammael?

Probably not. If he did, then we need a more complicated theory, because Rand didn't go to Lord Algarin's manor (where the Trollocs were sent) till after Osan'gar died. Therefore, he got them underway but someone else sent them to Tear. Therefore, you need to ask who the someone else was. Why should we accept the existence of a second person?

 

Regarding Taim/Ishy and Mr Ares' nice rebuttal. I'd say this: regarding the Sigil, the fact that Taim uses a sigil unrelated to Moridin is not the point, the fact that Taim uses the same sigil as Be'lal and Sammael, and with a more costly metal (gold instead of steel or silver) is. This indicates Forsaken status, and that he outranks Be'lal and Sammael. We know the Shadows other great general, Demandred, is NOT Taim. I thought this part of your rebuttal was fairly weak. As was the "he's just imitating" the red & black. Maybe he is a student, but that doesn't explain his access to the dreamspike. Or his aura that suggests TP usage. Something we've only seen Ishy/Moridin, Rand, and Graendal use (and maybe an instant from Aginor?).

The basic point of my argument is that Taim has many oddities, but they can all be explained in more than one way. A fairly popular theory is that Taim is a newly raised Chosen, a Third Ager trained by Ishy and given the Mark. The fact that parts of Taim's sigil are gilded (I would guess the lightning) might be indicative of nothing at all. We do not know what that sigil indicates, only that it has been used by two Chosen. It doesn't indicate Chosen status, nor that he stands higher. Or do you contend that Be'lal stood above Sammael? It's open to interpretation. It could be that all the Shadow's generals use it, and therefore Taim is now a general for the Shadow. As for red and black, I wear those colours with some frequency. Does that make me Moridin? Maybe he just likes those colours. The dreamspike is an easy one: that is Moridin's, but Moridin has given one to Graendal to use, so he could give one to Taim to use as well. The TP, we know others have had access to it in the past, besides Moridin, Graendal and Rand. Therefore use could be extended to Taim as well - in fact, Graendal having it and Rand using it weaken Taim=Moridin arguments - prior to TGS, we were told only Moridin had access any more. Now others have it as well. It's not exclusive to Moridin.

 

All the Taim=Moridin evidence can be explained in more than one way, and the orders they both give in WH make it unlikely that they are the same man. Not impossible, but I'd say the evidence leans towards Taim being Moridin's man rather than him being Moridin.

 

I would like to add another piece of evidence to all of this that Taim is not Moridin. Rand has seen both Taim and Moridin, therefore for them to be the same person Moridin would have to be using a disguise. However, Rand begins to see Moridin's face when he seizes saidin. It is never mentioned that he sees Taim's face. Moridin would have to spend a fair amount of time in the Taim disguise to perform his duties at the Black Tower. It would be an awfully big coincedence that he is never in his Taim disguise any of the times that Rand happens to seize saidin.

[WhiskyJack]

Since his epiphany on Dragonmount, Rand seems to have the ability to be able to tell a Darkfriend by looking into their eyes. Maybe he could use this ability in some way, to id those Asha'man who were loyal to him. If Rand went to the Black Tower or just met any of the Asha'man he would immediately be able to tell if they were Darkfriends or not.

 

Indeed this ability would have been extremely useful for Egwene in her attempts to root out Mesaana and the Black Ajah. It is just her luck that Rand got this ability just after the White Tower was cleansed! LOL.

 

 

My understanding was that DFs now cannot look at him directly. They basically would go blind.

[WhiskyJack]

Maybe Emarin is Rand. Incognito. Nah, timelines don´t match up i think.

 

Probably Algarin then.

 

 

What about the Noble from Tear who went to BT to learn?

[didymos]

Maybe Emarin is Rand. Incognito. Nah, timelines don´t match up i think.

 

Probably Algarin then.

 

 

What about the Noble from Tear who went to BT to learn?

 

That guy is Algarin. Emarin was the name of his younger brother, who years and years ago Cadsuane captured and took to Tar Valon to be gentled but also helped survive. Though, as most gentled men did, he eventually died.

[WhiskyJack]

Maybe Emarin is Rand. Incognito. Nah, timelines don´t match up i think.

 

Probably Algarin then.

 

 

What about the Noble from Tear who went to BT to learn?

 

That guy is Algarin. Emarin was the name of his elder brother, who Cadsuane gentled and helped survive years and years ago, though as most gentled men did, he eventually died.

 

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

[didymos]

I would like to add another piece of evidence to all of this that Taim is not Moridin. Rand has seen both Taim and Moridin, therefore for them to be the same person Moridin would have to be using a disguise. However, Rand begins to see Moridin's face when he seizes saidin. It is never mentioned that he sees Taim's face. Moridin would have to spend a fair amount of time in the Taim disguise to perform his duties at the Black Tower. It would be an awfully big coincedence that he is never in his Taim disguise any of the times that Rand happens to seize saidin.

 

While I'm not convinced Taim=Moridin myself, this one could always be written off as some effect of the link they have. I.e., that they'd always see through any Power-wrought disguise the other happened to be wearing.

[Suttree]

Maybe Emarin is Rand. Incognito. Nah, timelines don´t match up i think.

 

Probably Algarin then.

 

 

What about the Noble from Tear who went to BT to learn?

 

That guy is Algarin. Emarin was the name of his elder brother, who Cadsuane gentled and helped survive years and years ago, though as most gentled men did, he eventually died.

 

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong but you do know they are the same person right? Algarin has just taken his brother's name...

[WhiskyJack]

Maybe Emarin is Rand. Incognito. Nah, timelines don´t match up i think.

 

Probably Algarin then.

 

 

What about the Noble from Tear who went to BT to learn?

 

That guy is Algarin. Emarin was the name of his elder brother, who Cadsuane gentled and helped survive years and years ago, though as most gentled men did, he eventually died.

 

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong but you do know they are the same person right? Algarin has just taken his brother's name...

 

 

Obviously I don't know that for a FACT. We can assume that to be the case but there is giant discussion about the true identity of Emarin in this very thread...

[didymos]

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

 

Algarin (under his own name, at least) hasn't been seen since CoT. He tested positive for channeling ability, and off he went to the Black Tower. The single time the Emarin name was mentioned pre-ToM was also in CoT.

[didymos]

My understanding was that DFs now cannot look at him directly. They basically would go blind.

 

 

Yeah, but he made Weiramon look at him. Weiramon did not go blind. Anaiyella didn't either when Rand addressed her.

[WhiskyJack]

My understanding was that DFs now cannot look at him directly. They basically would go blind.

 

 

Yeah, but he made Weiramon look at him. Weiramon did not go blind. Anaiyella didn't either when Rand addressed her.

 

 

Confusing yes but one time two DF did go blind was when Rand was channeling. They weren't looking at him and still they went blind. So may be OP amps up the "blinding" juice or something...

[didymos]

Confusing yes but one time two DF did go blind was when Rand was channeling. They weren't looking at him and still they went blind. So may be OP amps up the "blinding" juice or something...

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what was up with that. I'm leaning toward it having something to do with what Rand said about that Storm of Light thing not being the best idea as he risked a premature fight with DO by doing it. Then there's that "And He shall take our eyes" bit in the Shadow prophecy at the end.

[Sharaman]

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

 

Algarin (under his own name, at least) hasn't been seen since CoT. He tested positive for channeling ability, and off he went to the Black Tower. The single time the Emarin name was mentioned pre-ToM was also in CoT.

KoD I think. He didn't test positive - he went to the BT with Logain hoping he would test positive.

BTW we do have solid timelines for the BT because of Rand's instructions to Naeff.

[didymos]

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

 

Algarin (under his own name, at least) hasn't been seen since CoT. He tested positive for channeling ability, and off he went to the Black Tower. The single time the Emarin name was mentioned pre-ToM was also in CoT.

KoD I think. He didn't test positive - he went to the BT with Logain hoping he would test positive.

BTW we do have solid timelines for the BT because of Rand's instructions to Naeff.

 

You're right: he hadn't tested. But he did leave sometime pre-KoD, and wasn't onscreen in KoD. He's gone by the time we get Rand's (or anyone at the manor's) first POV, and it's implied that it's been at little while. Logain apparently dropped him off when he went to check on stuff for Rand and to gather up Asha'man to send to Arad Doman.

[Sharaman]

Ah..And have we seen Algarin on screen in ToM? We do know that Emarin came with Logain and hasn't left BT in weeks (though I don't know where BT story stands in messed up timelines).

 

Algarin (under his own name, at least) hasn't been seen since CoT. He tested positive for channeling ability, and off he went to the Black Tower. The single time the Emarin name was mentioned pre-ToM was also in CoT.

KoD I think. He didn't test positive - he went to the BT with Logain hoping he would test positive.

BTW we do have solid timelines for the BT because of Rand's instructions to Naeff.

 

You're right: he hadn't tested. But he did leave sometime pre-KoD, and wasn't onscreen in KoD. He's gone by the time we get Rand's (or anyone at the manor's) first POV, and it's implied that it's been at little while. Logain apparently dropped him off when he went to check on stuff for Rand and to gather up Asha'man to send to Arad Doman.

In the first Androl at BT scene where he weaves a little Gate to cut leather, Algiarin hasn't been quite a month at BT so again we have some timelines.