Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[Yates_]

The outnumbered comment is sort of the Crux of my argument. I look at what Rand did in Storm of Light. With male/female circles, the Randlanders would be able to accomplish feats approaching this, whereas the Damane would not. I am of the belief that two circles of men and women would be able to scourge the Seanchan in a matter of hours. Every Damane focused on attacking one target could do nothing against that level of power, with one circle for protection of the one that is attacking.

 

I think you assume that numbers could overcome this argument. But it is my OPINION, based on flashbacks and opinions of those who lived through the Age of Legends, that circles of men and women would be so far ahead that no numerical advantage would overcome it. Regular soldiers could do nothing against this, especially soldiers used to having total superiority where weaponized OP is being used. Traveling would negate any sieges. As soon as the rest of the world realized that the Seanchan were attacking, regardless of who started it, the men and women channelers would join, link, and win the war in a matter of days. I don't understand why they would not do so.

[dfchang]

Also remember that the Seanchan's home base is in utter complete chaos.

 

That's another thing that rings false about this vision. How in the world unless everybody important is DEAD can they allow an empire the size and power of the Seanchan to CONTINUE to have leashed walking cruise missiles?

 

It's really mind-boggling. Common sense would suggest that right after beating the Dark One, the armies of the world would immediately gang up with the White Tower, the Ashaman, and the Aiel to kick Seanchan ass unless serious concessions are made.

 

I'm with Yates on circles. Used competently . . . by say generals like Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere, Agelmar, and the Lord of All Battles, Mat there shouldn't be a contest.

 

And don't forget, Mat's dragons can annihilate damane from a distance and the Seanchan have no idea how to duplicate that technology at this moment in time.

 

The Seanchan only become a threat because they are ALLOWED to continue their way of life which includes leashing damane by the rest of Randland. Why this would be allowed to happen is again baffling.

 

Dennis

[Sharaman]

The Seanchan EVA adapts.

If they are hit by circles, they'll find a way around it.

There may be a way to use A'dams in circles.

Apart from that, one easy way would be to use oath rods to swear damane into some kind of permission mode - "I promise to use OP only when ordered to do so by a servant of the Empress (MSLF)." Then uncollar them and let them rip.

[dfchang]

They don't adapt THAT fast. And there's only so many damane. I'm also curious how they're going to adapt to cannons that obliterate damane before they can even see where the balls are coming from?

 

Of course the key is to strike hard and strike early. Given time, I have no doubt the Seanchan will adapt but the odds are stacked against them especially if all Randland unite against them.

 

Ituralde alone gave them all they could handle for awhile and now he would be ostensibly joined by even more Great Captains. Not to mention Mat, who is the best of them all . . . given resources like dragons, the armies of all the nations of the world, and circles of Aes Sedai and Ashaman I have a hard time believing he would lose.

 

But we all know that's not going to happen, sigh . . . Mat is the Prince of the Ravens and ta'veren to boot and he'll sweettalk the Empress into standing down.

 

Dennis

[Sharaman]

They don't adapt THAT fast. And there's only so many damane. I'm also curious how they're going to adapt to cannons that obliterate damane before they can even see where the balls are coming from?

 

Of course the key is to strike hard and strike early. Given time, I have no doubt the Seanchan will adapt but the odds are stacked against them especially if all Randland unite against them.

 

Ituralde alone gave them all they could handle for awhile and now he would be ostensibly joined by even more Great Captains. Not to mention Mat, who is the best of them all . . . given resources like dragons, the armies of all the nations of the world, and circles of Aes Sedai and Ashaman I have a hard time believing he would lose.

 

But we all know that's not going to happen, sigh . . . Mat is the Prince of the Ravens and ta'veren to boot and he'll sweettalk the Empress into standing down.

 

Dennis

 

They've already been hit by circles once. They also have a lot of AS to interrogate. once they figure the danger, they'll find a way around it. If they survive TG, they'll have 15-odd years and lots of demos to learn all about circles.

I wasn't thinking all the Westland nations would promptly ally against them - just Seanchan vs the Aiel.

Numerically, IF Fortuona manages to reclaim her home continent, she has more resources than the entire Westland+Aiel combined.

[smileyman]

Also remember that the Seanchan's home base is in utter complete chaos.

 

That's another thing that rings false about this vision. How in the world unless everybody important is DEAD can they allow an empire the size and power of the Seanchan to CONTINUE to have leashed walking cruise missiles?

 

It's really mind-boggling. Common sense would suggest that right after beating the Dark One, the armies of the world would immediately gang up with the White Tower, the Ashaman, and the Aiel to kick Seanchan ass unless serious concessions are made.

 

Common sense? When at any point in this series have the rulers exhibited common sense? The only way that any of them have worked together is if someone stronger bullies them into it. Why would you assume that would change after the Last Battle, especially if Rand is dead? (which would seem to be the starting point for the whole mess).

 

I'm with Yates on circles. Used competently . . . by say generals like Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere, Agelmar, and the Lord of All Battles, Mat there shouldn't be a contest.

 

Again, you're assuming that the various rulers whom those generals owe allegiance too will be interested in fighting a war far from their homes. The rulers of Randland aren't exactly known for their altruism.

 

And don't forget, Mat's dragons can annihilate damane from a distance and the Seanchan have no idea how to duplicate that technology at this moment in time.

 

The dragons can't fire straight up, and they'll be vulnerable to calvary charges (as in real life). All the Seanchan have to do is fly a bunch of soldiers behind the lines, drop them off, and watch them slaughter the gunners. You could counter that by leaving a sizeable army to guard the cannons, but then you're going to not have those with you in the front lines which will be a disadvantage since the Seanchan soldiers are generally portrayed as being better, man for man, than the average Randland soldier.

 

The Seanchan only become a threat because they are ALLOWED to continue their way of life which includes leashing damane by the rest of Randland. Why this would be allowed to happen is again baffling.

 

I don't see why you think it's baffling. Throughout the whole series the various rulers and noblemen have shown that they're not concerned with the bigger picture, but with their own position. Very few, if any, are concerned with what's happening outside of their nations except for how it can benefit them. Just look at Tear--Rand is undeniably the Dragon Reborn, yet half the nobles are scheming to get rid of him, while the other half are willing to stand by and let it happen.

 

Again, I don't think that this viewing is one of those that absolutely will happen--I think it's more of a possiblity, but I also think that it's a very reasonable and plausible one.

[smileyman]

They don't adapt THAT fast. And there's only so many damane. I'm also curious how they're going to adapt to cannons that obliterate damane before they can even see where the balls are coming from?

 

There are far more da'mane than their are Aes Sedai or Asha'man. They're orders of magnitude more numerous, so they can afford to lose them at greater rates. How many battles will it take before the Seanchan realize that the cannons are being fired and they hold a few da'mane back to see where the cannonballs are coming from and then drop them behind the gunners via to'raken, or even blast them from the air? The cannons can't fire straight up and arrows won't be able to reach them.

 

Don't underestimate the power that total domination of the air will bring. Also the Seanchan can completely control the oceans and rivers as well, choking off supply routes and troop movements.

[Jeangray]

There are far more da'mane than their are Aes Sedai or Asha'man.

 

I doubt this. Seanchan only leash sparkers and they can't leash men*. There are several times more learners than sparkers. All it would take for AS/AM to outnumber damane is to recruit more efficiently than the old WT - as they already do.

 

And Aiel also have male channelers in this future, so...

 

There is no way to adapt and compensate for the circles and a'dam precludes damane from linking. The only way to have a link-like combination of power is if the sul'dam is also an active channeler.

 

We also shouldn't overvalue damane combat training. AM with a couple of months training were able to beat them handily. And it isn't just that men are stronger and actually pit their strongest powers against damane's weakest ones and cannot be detected in advance, but also that damane necessarily have initiative seared out of them and must wait for the orders of their sul'dam. Ergo, they will always be slower than free channelers and couldn't display creativity on the battle-field either.

 

* I think that Seanchan may have some more Domination Bands and know how to make them. They may even try to fit Rand with one again. But what they don't know is that DB is very different from a'dam in that controller rather than controlled must form the weaves. And of course, for that the controller must be an active channeler and trained to weave saidin in a mixed circle.

[Guest huntjd1]

These chapters floored me.

 

Apparently, Avi lives through the Last Battle, and she and Rand get together long enough for her quadruplets to come about. I wonder what Min's viewing about that meant?

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Is it possible that the 'something odd' might stem from Aviendha doing something she would not have had she not seen this horrible future partially due to her offspring's actions? What could be odd about her viewing?

I have a theory about that. Considering Min’s viewing about Aviendha’s babies and that there will not apparently be anything unusual about Elaine’s Babies. I believe that Rand will use Aviendha in his circle using Calandore because Elaine is pregnant and has difficulty channeling. I think that Aviendha will have just unknowingly conceived. The Flaw in Calandore will somehow cause an abnormality in the babies that will cause them to be born always embracing the source. This will in addition cause more problems mentally with these children. I think this might be the cause of Min’s something odd about the babies.

[Jeangray]

Tylee was clearly not nobility when we first saw her. Then she was. Self-made noble.

 

Yea, so? They are on a successful conquest binge. It would be the same in Randland. And isn't Ituralde common-born too? Didn't he bitterly remember losing his first love to a lordling?

 

As to eyes-and-ears, yes, they are only news agents. That's basically what the Listeners in Seanchan are too, though.

 

No. Listeners are informers for the secret police (KGB/Gestapo) that can get you killed for voicing thoughts that are not in total agreement with the state dogma.

 

In Seanchan the constant revolts are essentially nationalistic in nature (or so they strike me, particularly the comment by Karede about how difficult a particular region was to put down) and nationalism has a tendency to lead to some form of self-governance and quite a bit of social change.

 

Weren't they just shenengians of High Blood trying to grab some power? In any case, this refutes the notions that Seanchan rule is so much more peaceful than what Randlanders have. IIRC, Karede distinguished himself in 2 major rebellions and there were also minor ones.

In fact, given the nature of Imperial succession - i.e. that kids of the Empress have to struggle against each other to prove their "worthiness" (familiar, isn't it? Now who else uses this approach? Oh, yes, teh DO) regular civil wars/rebellions are inevitable.

 

We aren't really told how common slavery is in Seanchan that I remember.

 

Common enough, given that all descendants of slaves remain slaves forever and tens thousands of people go to the auction block after every rebellion.

 

its hardly a brutal slave-state, like the Spartans of antiquity.

 

Well, the Randlanders who were made slaves (and I don't mean damane here), found it quite brutal.

 

We don't know Thom's background that I recall.

 

We know that his nephew was a farmer.

 

an enlightened ruler (Morgase) wanted his head for basically disobeying that he stay at Court. So... lets hear it for those Randland rulers?

 

No, there was also a huge quarrel in course of which Thom grabbed and shook Morgase. I'd love to see what happens to a person who does the same to Seanchan High Blood. Well, not really.

Remember, in Seanchan you can get killed for looking a wrong person in the eye. Tuon as not yet Empress made a huge allowance by not whipping Beslan for it and Beslan is one of the most highly-placed people in her court! Now, there are really few people who can even adress her directly. Level of grovelling and abasement required by the Seanchan at all levels is in whole different ballpark than anything in Randland.

 

The Kin are extremely atypical. They live for centuries, have abilities that are valuable to the community, and so they have a good deal of freedom and can learn many careers.

 

They demonstrate that it is quite possible to enter various professions in Randland without having family in the trade already. Androl is another example in the same vein. Most people remain farmers or whatever because they like it and/or are averse to risk, not because it is impossible for them to do something else.

 

I will agree that Andor has the best chance of creating a democratic system in the series. But I'd put Seanchan before Tear or Cairhien, or any of the Borderlands in that category.

 

Not sure why you'd throw Borderlands in - it seems to me that they do have upward mobility through merit. Wasn't it mentioned that a few closest counselors of the Borderland monarchs were of common origin?

Tear and Cahirien - yea, with one all-important cave-out. The meanest Tairen and Cahierien can up and leave and look for luck somewhere else. Seanchan slave can't.

 

Also, Seanchan appears to be an equal opportunity society. Women and men working together and all that.

 

I applaud the for having women in the military, yay! But in all other respects Randland is as equal opportunity as they are.

[Deadsy]

The only way I see this happening is for Tuon to find out that all sul'damane can channel including herself.

She already knows. She told Mat that she chooses not to learn, just like she chooses not to murder.

[nolirion]

The only way I see this happening is for Tuon to find out that all sul'damane can channel including herself.

She already knows. She told Mat that she chooses not to learn, just like she chooses not to murder.

Hypocrite as always , by her own word her own philosophy whether or not she choose don't matter the fact she can mean she must be leashed .

Iark that make me itch each time damn Seanchan fool's

[Jeangray]

Hypocrite as always , by her own word her own philosophy whether or not she choose don't matter the fact she can mean she must be leashed

 

Seanchan believe that sparkers _chose_ to channel and that it proves their moral deficiency. I guess that this stance also helps women under 25 not to go mad with fear.

Anyway, I always wondered why the sul'dam never manifest the spark, as they are selected before the age of 21. But if young sul'dam sparked occasionally, it would have been impossible to keep it completely secret. Hm... Can it be that wearing the bracelet, touching the OP even if at remove prevents late sparkers who became sul'dam from sparking? In such a case it could be quite dangerous for the Empress, May she Die a Fiery Death to play sul'dam, he-he.

[nolirion]

Hypocrite as always , by her own word her own philosophy whether or not she choose don't matter the fact she can mean she must be leashed

 

Seanchan believe that sparkers _chose_ to channel and that it proves their moral deficiency. I guess that this stance also helps women under 25 not to go mad with fear.

Anyway, I always wondered why the sul'dam never manifest the spark, as they are selected before the age of 21. But if young sul'dam sparked occasionally, it would have been impossible to keep it completely secret. Hm... Can it be that wearing the bracelet, touching the OP even if at remove prevents late sparkers who became sul'dam from sparking? In such a case it could be quite dangerous for the Empress, May she Die a Fiery Death to play sul'dam, he-he.

I think you missed it , the spark is a quality that mean you can channel without being trained that why they are captured and leashed , the Sul'dam think they have no ability in them , that they can't touch it (wrong as alway's) .

What change in the Sul'dam is that the bracelet make with time some kind of twisted teaching , that doe'snt teach them the weave that can't be used but they open themselves to Saidar .

So they do not spark they just train in a twisted way .

This is comprehensible as Seanchan was a land divided by battle be twin women who could channel before the whole A'dam thing come

[Jeangray]

I think you missed it , the spark is a quality that mean you can channel without being trained that why they are captured and leashed

 

They cannot be leashed until the spark is close to coming out, which can happen until the age of 21 for female channelers. But test for sul'dam can be taken at 16, upon coming of age, as we have seen with Tuon. Which means, that there must be late sparkers among the sul'dam, who, for whatever reason _never_ ignite.

[nolirion]

I think you missed it , the spark is a quality that mean you can channel without being trained that why they are captured and leashed

 

They cannot be leashed until the spark is close to coming out, which can happen until the age of 21 for female channelers. But test for sul'dam can be taken at 16, upon coming of age, as we have seen with Tuon. Which means, that there must be late sparkers among the sul'dam, who, for whatever reason _never_ ignite.

Perhaps i am wrong , I tough spark was a rare thing among channeler

[Mystica]

I think you missed it , the spark is a quality that mean you can channel without being trained that why they are captured and leashed

 

They cannot be leashed until the spark is close to coming out, which can happen until the age of 21 for female channelers. But test for sul'dam can be taken at 16, upon coming of age, as we have seen with Tuon. Which means, that there must be late sparkers among the sul'dam, who, for whatever reason _never_ ignite.

Perhaps i am wrong , I tough spark was a rare thing among channeler

 

you're not wrong. Only 1% of the population (female population) can learn to channel and of those less than 1% has the ability inborn (has the spark).

[Sharaman]

I think you missed it , the spark is a quality that mean you can channel without being trained that why they are captured and leashed

 

They cannot be leashed until the spark is close to coming out, which can happen until the age of 21 for female channelers. But test for sul'dam can be taken at 16, upon coming of age, as we have seen with Tuon. Which means, that there must be late sparkers among the sul'dam, who, for whatever reason _never_ ignite.

Perhaps i am wrong , I tough spark was a rare thing among channeler

 

you're not wrong. Only 1% of the population (female population) can learn to channel and of those less than 1% has the ability inborn (has the spark).

Take a look at the suldam-damane thread where this issue has been discussed http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/52905-suldam-and-damane/ and also at Linda's 13th depository http://13depository.blogspot.com where it's also discussed. Some of the info above is a bit off.

[TheTuninator]

I have to say, these scenes made no sense to me in terms of the Seanchan beating everyone.

 

We know that the Seanchan don't use male channelers and have no male a'dam. So how do they manage to beat the nations of the world AND the White and Black Towers by capturing all their channelers? I don't buy it. The Seanchan damane would be heavily outnumbered and can't use circles; I fail to see how that would enable them to roll over everyone and enslave all their channelers. That was honestly the most irritating part of the book to me, the fact that the [expletive deleted] Seanchan once again manage to screw everything up. Except this time, it doesn't even make sense that they would be able to, given as how even their channelers would be heavily outnumbered. I'm still waiting for a logical explanation of that.

[nolirion]

I have to say, these scenes made no sense to me in terms of the Seanchan beating everyone.

 

We know that the Seanchan don't use male channelers and have no male a'dam. So how do they manage to beat the nations of the world AND the White and Black Towers by capturing all their channelers? I don't buy it. The Seanchan damane would be heavily outnumbered and can't use circles; I fail to see how that would enable them to roll over everyone and enslave all their channelers. That was honestly the most irritating part of the book to me, the fact that the [expletive deleted] Seanchan once again manage to screw everything up. Except this time, it doesn't even make sense that they would be able to, given as how even their channelers would be heavily outnumbered. I'm still waiting for a logical explanation of that.

How that make sense , Seanchan Armys is effective , and know that male channelers are safe their will be male a'dam

[Jeangray]

of those less than 1% has the ability inborn (has the spark).

 

IIRC, we don't know the ratio of learners to sparkers, but I'd say that it is much lower than that. 10:1 perhaps.

 

How that make sense , Seanchan Armys is effective , and know that male channelers are safe their will be male a'dam

 

The Domination Band requires that the controller must be able to weave the flows of saidin. I.e. only an active channeler with experience in leading mixed circles could use it.

[Declan]

The Seanchan EVA adapts.

If they are hit by circles, they'll find a way around it.

There may be a way to use A'dams in circles.

Apart from that, one easy way would be to use oath rods to swear damane into some kind of permission mode - "I promise to use OP only when ordered to do so by a servant of the Empress (MSLF)." Then uncollar them and let them rip.

My goodness it has been a long time for me to post something, but this book brought me back.

 

The only can think that you can form a circle with A'dam is if they do it through the sul'dams or something. otherwise i don't think it is possible since the sul'dams are in complete control of the damane.

 

I believe someone said earlier that the Seanchan could easily be destroyed by Mat's dragons...yes they could. It's too bad that in Aviendha's vision that they had obtained that technology. Im sure that somewhere during the Last Battle when everyone is fighting the Seanchan that at least one cannon is overrun and somehow someone in the Seanchan stumbles uppon it and brings it back to Altara to be studied. You can't keep that kind of technology so secret if it is going to be used in warfare. it is almost not possible.

 

My money is on Aviendha somehow changing the Aiel or making them fit into some kind of different niche. Or i will just be depressed for like a month if her vision becomes true.

[JohnnyBeGood]

The outnumbered comment is sort of the Crux of my argument. I look at what Rand did in Storm of Light. With male/female circles, the Randlanders would be able to accomplish feats approaching this, whereas the Damane would not. I am of the belief that two circles of men and women would be able to scourge the Seanchan in a matter of hours. Every Damane focused on attacking one target could do nothing against that level of power, with one circle for protection of the one that is attacking.

 

I think you assume that numbers could overcome this argument. But it is my OPINION, based on flashbacks and opinions of those who lived through the Age of Legends, that circles of men and women would be so far ahead that no numerical advantage would overcome it. Regular soldiers could do nothing against this, especially soldiers used to having total superiority where weaponized OP is being used. Traveling would negate any sieges. As soon as the rest of the world realized that the Seanchan were attacking, regardless of who started it, the men and women channelers would join, link, and win the war in a matter of days. I don't understand why they would not do so.

 

No, a circle no matter how big would not be able to redo what Rand did. It is not only a question of power but skill. Leading a circle does not make you more skilled, just more powerful. At the same time everyone else in the Circle becomes almost useless, they can only watch, so it actually makes the group less skilled in terms of the number of Weaves they can control at the same time.

The great advantage lies in the increase in Power, which make their Weaves so strong that can not be countered. But there are many ways to attack which mostly have to be dealt with differently. So overwhelming the Leader of a circle with different types of attacks that come from different directions and need different forms of defense(From slicing the Weaves, to forming Shields of Air/Earth) is possible. Especially since the Leader of the Circle needs to protect others in the Circle too.

 

As a side note, the Seanchan are not used to having total Superiority in terms of the Power, Damane have been on both sides of their Civil wars and they have fought Rand and his Asha'man near Illian. I think they will have learned enough in that last fight, so they can use tactics which can allow normal Soldiers to at least be of some use in Battles. Like the hidden crossbow tactic used there.

[bysomy]

on page 726 it says "She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off." Is she talking about just Aviendha's children or is it talking about Elayne, Min, Aviendha, and someone else?

[Sharaman]

on page 726 it says "She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off." Is she talking about just Aviendha's children or is it talking about Elayne, Min, Aviendha, and someone else?

Since this was a purely Aiel vision going down avi's bloodline, I assumed Avi's four children.