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Discuss Aviendha's Arc


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Lol, well, yeah... I'm in th same boat, I'm extremely sarcastic, and rare is the person that understands me *laugh* My husband is one of the few, though he's got the same sense of humor ;)

 

Side note: Innocently slipping the words "my husband" into conversation will not stop me from hitting on you..... This goes for everybody. Men aside.

 

You're only allowed to hit me if I can say 'thank you sir, may I have another' after. *laugh*

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Lol, well, yeah... I'm in th same boat, I'm extremely sarcastic, and rare is the person that understands me *laugh* My husband is one of the few, though he's got the same sense of humor ;)

 

Side note: Innocently slipping the words "my husband" into conversation will not stop me from hitting on you..... This goes for everybody. Men aside.

^Last minute save there.

On topic now, I do not think that the future is set in stone so to speak.

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Lol, well, yeah... I'm in th same boat, I'm extremely sarcastic, and rare is the person that understands me *laugh* My husband is one of the few, though he's got the same sense of humor ;)

 

Side note: Innocently slipping the words "my husband" into conversation will not stop me from hitting on you..... This goes for everybody. Men aside.

 

You're only allowed to hit me if I can say 'thank you sir, may I have another' after. *laugh*

I do believe you misread my post. Oh well... Joke is officially ruined.

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Lol, well, yeah... I'm in th same boat, I'm extremely sarcastic, and rare is the person that understands me *laugh* My husband is one of the few, though he's got the same sense of humor ;)

 

Side note: Innocently slipping the words "my husband" into conversation will not stop me from hitting on you..... This goes for everybody. Men aside.

 

You're only allowed to hit me if I can say 'thank you sir, may I have another' after. *laugh*

I do believe you misread my post. Oh well... Joke is officially ruined.

 

*laugh* See, that's what happens when you type theories on DM, study, and play call of duty at the same time... sorry for messing up the joke, my face turned 'read' when I re-read it, hehehe

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Agreed, so long as the pillars were in fact telling the truth about the past of the Aiel (we've always assumed that the pillars are truthful, and not some kind of fiction making device, which I *guess* is possible, though unlikely). I'd say that if the pillars showed a true past, it will show a true future because of the nature of the Wheel's universe.

 

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

Another way of looking at it: Avi in her second trip from the pillars didn't see the future... she saw the deep, deep, deep, deep past as dictated by the weaving of the pattern.

 

Hence, in the future, the Empire will eventually dominate Randland and the waste imho.

"But it was a beginning". I always got the impression that Rand was setting out to change things so they never repeated like this again, a true beginning with a future completely unknown. Why do you think that paragraph is at the beginning of every single book? It has to have some significance.

 

And I never got the impression that events always repeated exactly as they happened in the last turning of the wheel, just the general flow of it. And then there is Padan Fain, as well..

Edited by f3llyn
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Padan Fain or his equivalent most likely existed in the past as Shadar Logoth must have existed... otherwise, the Dragon wouldn't be able to cleanse the male half of the power. The wheel of time intro also states 'In one age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past.' This implies that the current age that we're witnessing has not yet come, and is in the past as well. There may be minor differences as noted earlier, but I believe the general feeling of the age will always be the same, or again, there would be no need for Ta'veren to correct the weaving of the ages... At least in my opinion.

 

Along the same lines, Rand's main goal seems to be sealing the Dark One away again completely... this has to occur so that at some time in the future, he is forgotten about so some future Aes Sedai can drill the bore open again.

 

I don't think Rand intends to end the cycle... during Veins of Gold, we have the following passage:

 

"Why do we live again? Lew Therin asked, suddenly His voice was crisp and distinct.

 

"Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me, Why?"

 

"Maybe... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.'

 

Later on, Rand states:

 

"Why Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again."

 

Lews Therin, later on:

 

"If I live again, then she might as well."

 

Rand's moment of clarity came as he questioned the pattern, wondering why he should let the cycle continue amid all his pain and suffering. He comes to the conclussion that for all the bad, there is good. There is love. New, uber-cool Rand states that he is willing to go to his fate, knowing that the endless battle will happen time and again, and he finally accepts that.

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I think the pillars are outside the pattern, like the 3 ring ter'angreal must be in order to show all the different iterations of your life. Track 1 Aviendha (who did not go through the pillars) was only concerned about the things Nakomi said.

 

...that raised a larger problem, one her mother [Aviendha] had often spoken of. What was it to be Aiel, now that their duty to the past had been fulfilled, their toh as a people cleansed?

 

After what we've seen in the pillars, I think this is a bit too unfocused of a concern. Track 2 Aviendha now knows of at least 2 things that, if changed, could save the Aiel future.

 

1. The understanding that was almost reached with Tuon. I think this one is less likely to be the key factor simply because it's going to be difficult for Aviendha alone to change it. It also doesn't really touch the underlying cause of the Aiel's moral decay.

 

2. The Aiel's lack of role or responsibility after the LB.

Alvalad said. "Skirmishes between the nations are common, though none speak of them. The Car'a'carn required promises of the monarchs, but there is no enforcement. Many wetlanders cannot be held at their word, and I worry that the Seanchan will devour them while they squabble."

"The Aiel must have a purpose." Janduin said, nodding. "We are useless as we are, and we made no promise not to attack."

 

I don't see Track 2 Aviendha merely raising the question reported by Track 1's daughter. In Track 1, she only knew that they needed to ask the question. Track 2 now knows that asking the question isn't enough. She has to provide the answer.

 

Finally, I think the fact that she went through and saw a future that was no longer going to exist might have broken the pillars.

 

Aviendha after her first trip in:

the pillars seemed . . . alive, somehow.

 

Aviendha when she's finished:

They seemed dead. She reached out and touched one, but there was no life. No hum, no sense of Power.
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Emily, Fain IS unique to this age, Rj confirmed that he had somehow sidestepped the pattern. That chance meeting of mordeth and padan fain was something that had never happened before, and something that has the potential to change the entire equation. Fain is incredibly strong at this point, I suspect he is going to be the one to kill Rand the first time.

 

I agree with cheese, whatever Avi did destroyed the columns, they burned out in order to warn her of what is to come if she does not act.

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Padan Fain or his equivalent most likely existed in the past as Shadar Logoth must have existed... otherwise, the Dragon wouldn't be able to cleanse the male half of the power. The wheel of time intro also states 'In one age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past.' This implies that the current age that we're witnessing has not yet come, and is in the past as well. There may be minor differences as noted earlier, but I believe the general feeling of the age will always be the same, or again, there would be no need for Ta'veren to correct the weaving of the ages... At least in my opinion.

 

Along the same lines, Rand's main goal seems to be sealing the Dark One away again completely... this has to occur so that at some time in the future, he is forgotten about so some future Aes Sedai can drill the bore open again.

 

I don't think Rand intends to end the cycle... during Veins of Gold, we have the following passage:

 

"Why do we live again? Lew Therin asked, suddenly His voice was crisp and distinct.

 

"Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me, Why?"

 

"Maybe... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.'

 

Later on, Rand states:

 

"Why Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again."

 

Lews Therin, later on:

 

"If I live again, then she might as well."

 

Rand's moment of clarity came as he questioned the pattern, wondering why he should let the cycle continue amid all his pain and suffering. He comes to the conclussion that for all the bad, there is good. There is love. New, uber-cool Rand states that he is willing to go to his fate, knowing that the endless battle will happen time and again, and he finally accepts that.

 

I hope you don't think same age means exactly same things? So you think Aiel will come again and again and they will always be called people of dragon (just an example)? Fail is unique and we have no reason to believe that taint existed in 3rd age that came before this one. Overall theme remains the same but they don't happen the same way.

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Aviendha will change the future direction of the Aiel as she was able to communicate with the Ter'angreal using her Talent and change it's 'setting' to enable her to see her descendants futures.

 

In TOM, Aviendha had a sense or feeling that the Rhuidean glass columns were almost alive with an awareness. Now in KOD, Aviendha is able to determine the purpose of ter'angreal and even how to activate them. She does this by touching them and gaining a sense of their purpose and how to use them. Aviendha touches the ter'angreal columns in Rhuidean attempting to determine their purpose. It is specifically stated twice that Aviendha is trying to 'read' the ter'angreal and determine it's function. Immediately after doing this, Aviendha is plunged into the first future vision. Clearly this is the purpose or function of the ter'angreal. To allow the user to see the future (via their descendants POVs). What would be the purpose of a ter'angreal that did this? The reason is that the future visions can be altered in the present - the future seen is alterable.

 

The Jenn Aiel previously forsaw that the Aiel would die out within 3 generations if they did not send their clan-chiefs to Rhuidean. It specifically was foreseen that this would happen in 3 generations. How did they know this? By using the pillars ter'angreal in Rhuidean. Note that the visions are based on descendants POV's - so generations in the visions can be tracked, certainly 3 generations would be easily measurable. It was using this ter'angreal to see the future that enabled the Jenn Aiel to intervene to safeguard the future of the Aiel and steer them away from a path of extinction.

 

My guess is that Aviendha will share her revelations of the future with the Wise Ones. It is the Wise Ones who essentially make policy for the Aiel. It is the Clan Chiefs who enforce their policies but the Wise Ones are the de facto policy-makers. Of course, Aviendha herself now is a Wise One and one of the most powerful Channelers amongst them. Aviendha will help the Wise Ones determine what future role the Aiel will have to adopt to avoid extinction. My guess is the Aiel will regain the Lost Song and their future purpose will be to make the Waste bloom. There has been so much backstory about the Dashain Aiel singing in the AOL to make things grow and the Tinkers still seeking the Lost Song etc that it must have some significance other than mere cultural back-story.

Edited by BladeDancer
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I finally read through all 20 pages of this topic and I'm gonna touch a couple of points:

 

1) Aviendha's revelation is the absolute truth of what will happen in the future. Remember: this is not a Foretelling or a Dream or a god-awful Prophecy that can be open to 39 different interpretations and still won't make sense until after an event occurs. No, the means for Aviendha's vision, the Tan'greal, has already been established as a reliable tool; neither clan chiefs or Wise Ones have raised a doubt, and even after Rand tells of the Aiel's sin, the issue of whether or not the Tan'greal shows accurately is never an issue. In fact, that Tan'greal provides the ONLY method in the entire series to gain a crisp, clean reveal of a time that is not now....

 

Aviendha herself doesn't question whether the pillars are working properly, nor does she note anything odd about her visions, like a mist-like insubstantiality that has been established to illustrate a world of "What-if". Furthermore, her vision was identical in clarity and structure to what we were told that Rand experienced, and we saw through her bloodline just like Rand did. Her reaction to "Seeing What Will Be" is as profound and shattering as "Seeing What Was" was before He-Who-Comes-With-The-Dawn. (Note: Apparently, I wasn't the only person to have been shaken as deeply as Aviendha. Bravo, RJ/BS, for the totally unexpected and powerful reveal...)

 

 

Sorry, folks, but what she saw in those pillars is What Will Be.

 

The main use of the pillars has always been as a guide for the Aiel to prepare them for a future prophesied to break them. If the clan chiefs hadn't been prepared they may have fallen to the bleakness like so many Aiel who aren't strong enough do. However we've only ever seen it used to show the past, never the future. It's too early to tell if what Aviendha saw is unavoidable or not. For what would be the point of showing a future depicting the annihilation of an entire people if not to prepare those who come before so that this future won't come to pass. Perhaps the Jenn Aiel used it to show the future of their people and knowing what will happen set plans in motion to prevent it by telling the clan chiefs that they had to pass through.

{the following is not specifically a response to you personally}

 

 

The purpose of the pillars up until ToM was to reveal how completely the Aiel had strayed from their service to Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. That's all. The culture of ji'e'toh arose to prepare them for their eventual atonement and eventual shattering. And, yeah, over and over we are told that the Aiel of the 3rd Age face inevitable destruction, and that only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. What Aviendha saw was the "majority of the majority" that COULD NOT be saved: a crystal clear POV of the causes and reasons and texture of that extermination....

 

We don't know how that Tan'greal works or it's original purpose or anything beyond what we are told is revealed to Rand and Aviendha. And both experiences are identical in format, structure and rule, without anything to indicate her "Future" lives lived are in any way less fixed than Rand's "Past" lives lived. So if we question whether her experience is somehow a "What If" sort of thing, then we must also question whether Rand's is a "What If" sort of thing, as well....

 

I wonder what that surviving remnant of a remnant will look like, culturally?

 

Beware the bleakness, people. Don't go Shaido on me.

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Rand saw a past, something that already took place. That ter'angreal was nothing more than memory device for Rand. Hardly the same thing as predicting something that has not happened yet. And future can always be changed. For that to be untrue means people have no control over their action.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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[...]

 

Clearly this is the purpose or function of the ter'angreal. To allow the user to see the future (via their descendants POVs). What would be the purpose of a ter'angreal that did this? The reason is that the future visions can be altered in the present - the future seen is alterable.

 

 

Yeah, I like the entirety of what you wrote, :smile: but why do you assume that the purpose of the ter'angreal is to reveal and thus allow the future to be altered?

 

I've written in this thread if you are curious to my input....

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Rand saw a past, something that already took place. That ter'angreal was nothing more than memory device for Rand. Hardly the same thing as predicting something that has not happened yet. And future can always be changed. For that to be untrue means people have no control over their action.

 

 

If the Aiel are going to be destroyed to but a remnant of a remnant. It may happen as seen, but if Aviendha changes anything, it will be done another way. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills and the Pattern of an Age is pretty consistent. That doesn't mean a foretelling is FOR SURE true, they can still fail, but the Wheel will spin out corrective mechanisms to correct course for major changes it needs to make if people do otherwise. So yes, predictions can go wrong, which is why it's very possible for Rand to fail (and if the Pattern is undone than of course there's nothing left to even correct), but so long as the Pattern is there, it will correct itself.

 

So either what Avi saw is the future or it's something else. We can't say for sure WHAT the Pillars were showing exactly, that's true. But if it is a specific future, and Avi changes what she saw, we're still probably going to see a Seanchan conquered continent and the end of the Aiel for the most part, it would just happen differently. The only way that wouldn't be true is if the Pillars did NOT show the future and were responding to something else.

 

Somebody mentioned that the Taint on saidin doesn't come every time. I disagree. That's such a fundamental feature of the Age, something like that wouldn't change, at least not from turning to turning. Maybe over the course of hundreds of turnings of the Wheel, but RJ has said major things, such as gender equality coming about and existing in the Third Age, are characteristics of the Age, and would be a major shift that wouldn't happen.

Edited by Agitel
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Rand saw a past, something that already took place. That ter'angreal was nothing more than memory device for Rand. Hardly the same thing as predicting something that has not happened yet. And future can always be changed. For that to be untrue means people have no control over their action.

 

 

I soooooo disagree with this. Why is it just a memory device for Rand but then suddenly it is dismissed as a misty, unreliable crystal ball for Aviendha? All the evidence indicate that it functions exactly the same for both of them, with no discrepancies whatsoever..... So if it works as a memory device for Rand, then it works as a memory device for Aviendha....

 

I think the ter'angreal has nothing to do with "predicting" something that has not happened yet. No, it's more like getting a longer-range view along the threads in the Pattern.

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Somebody mentioned that the Taint on saidin doesn't come every time. I disagree. That's such a fundamental feature of the Age, something like that wouldn't change, at least not from turning to turning. Maybe over the course of hundreds of turnings of the Wheel, but RJ has said major things, such as gender equality coming about and existing in the Third Age, are characteristics of the Age, and would be a major shift that wouldn't happen.

 

I believe that RJ said that the major characteristics of the ages are always the same but the minor details can be different. For instance sometimes it's Saidin that's tainted and during other turnings it's Saidar. The feature of a taint on one of the two is a constant but which can change depending on how prior events unfold. I got the feeling from the pillars that a future dominated by the Seanchan is eminent but how it happens is can be altered.

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Somebody mentioned that the Taint on saidin doesn't come every time. I disagree. That's such a fundamental feature of the Age, something like that wouldn't change, at least not from turning to turning. Maybe over the course of hundreds of turnings of the Wheel, but RJ has said major things, such as gender equality coming about and existing in the Third Age, are characteristics of the Age, and would be a major shift that wouldn't happen.

 

I believe that RJ said that the major characteristics of the ages are always the same but the minor details can be different. For instance sometimes it's Saidin that's tainted and during other turnings it's Saidar. The feature of a taint on one of the two is a constant but which can change depending on how prior events unfold. I got the feeling from the pillars that a future dominated by the Seanchan is eminent but how it happens is can be altered.

Assuming that what the device showed is really the future that comes after instead of spurring Avi in order to bring another future that is true.

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True. It can be a warning device, sort of a "worst case scenario" kaleidoscope, but judging from it's previous function it seems to be more of a likely outcome type thing. The rings that the wise ones use show possible futures with multiple time lines based on different choices that were made but this seemed to be a very clear indication of a likely future.

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Why is it just a memory device for Rand but then suddenly it is dismissed as a misty, unreliable crystal ball for Aviendha?

 

Because memories are about the past by definition? And it's just as reasonable to ask why we should assume that the ter'angreal is super-reliable when it's in flashforward mode. It's done that precisely once. That's a crappy sample size to extrapolate from, and especially when there's pretty much no independent verification of what it showed her. The one exception is her four children, which Min had a viewing of. But that's just one element of that future. We have absolutely know way to know that the rest of the future it showed is immutable. I mean, none of it has happened yet. There is no certainty to be had here. Any claims that it definitely will happen are bogus. So are claims that it definitely won't. The only answer right now is "We don't know enough yet." Or, in WoT terminology: RAFO.

 

I think the ter'angreal has nothing to do with "predicting" something that has not happened yet. No, it's more like getting a longer-range view along the threads in the Pattern.

 

And how is that different from prediction?

Edited by didymos
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Rand saw a past, something that already took place. That ter'angreal was nothing more than memory device for Rand. Hardly the same thing as predicting something that has not happened yet. And future can always be changed. For that to be untrue means people have no control over their action.

 

 

I soooooo disagree with this. Why is it just a memory device for Rand but then suddenly it is dismissed as a misty, unreliable crystal ball for Aviendha? All the evidence indicate that it functions exactly the same for both of them, with no discrepancies whatsoever..... So if it works as a memory device for Rand, then it works as a memory device for Aviendha....

 

I think the ter'angreal has nothing to do with "predicting" something that has not happened yet. No, it's more like getting a longer-range view along the threads in the Pattern.

 

 

It's memory device for Rand because it only shows a recorded history. There's no magic in keeping record of events and showing to others in future. I am not sure what this crystal ball deal is but future is always possibilities. What you do now decides what will happen next. What Avi got was a glimpse of what could happen if Aiel stayed the course.

 

LOL. Long range "prediction" along the thread;)..Isn't that what prophecies or foretelling do. If everything is set in stone than why don't prophecies predict whether light will win or not. VOG was written on that very premise. Rand could have gone in any direction. His actions were not written in stone. So future can always be changed. Otherwise there is no point in doing ANYTHING. Ofcourse like self-fulfilling prophecy, actions you take to avoid certain future you saw might actually result in same future you were trying to avoid in first place. If that is the case here, than Aiel are screwed..

Edited by WhiskyJack
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Somebody mentioned that the Taint on saidin doesn't come every time. I disagree. That's such a fundamental feature of the Age, something like that wouldn't change, at least not from turning to turning. Maybe over the course of hundreds of turnings of the Wheel, but RJ has said major things, such as gender equality coming about and existing in the Third Age, are characteristics of the Age, and would be a major shift that wouldn't happen.

 

I believe that RJ said that the major characteristics of the ages are always the same but the minor details can be different. For instance sometimes it's Saidin that's tainted and during other turnings it's Saidar. The feature of a taint on one of the two is a constant but which can change depending on how prior events unfold. I got the feeling from the pillars that a future dominated by the Seanchan is eminent but how it happens is can be altered.

Your post sparked off an interesting thought - has the Dragon ever been reborn as a woman? After all, if saidar has been tainted in a different Age, then maybe it was because of that?

 

Hmmm.

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Somebody mentioned that the Taint on saidin doesn't come every time. I disagree. That's such a fundamental feature of the Age, something like that wouldn't change, at least not from turning to turning. Maybe over the course of hundreds of turnings of the Wheel, but RJ has said major things, such as gender equality coming about and existing in the Third Age, are characteristics of the Age, and would be a major shift that wouldn't happen.

 

I believe that RJ said that the major characteristics of the ages are always the same but the minor details can be different. For instance sometimes it's Saidin that's tainted and during other turnings it's Saidar. The feature of a taint on one of the two is a constant but which can change depending on how prior events unfold. I got the feeling from the pillars that a future dominated by the Seanchan is eminent but how it happens is can be altered.

Your post sparked off an interesting thought - has the Dragon ever been reborn as a woman? After all, if saidar has been tainted in a different Age, then maybe it was because of that?

 

Hmmm.

 

According to RJ, souls dont change gender. So Birgitte will always be female, Rand will always be male, etc etc. Although Birgitte in a male body is basically Mat anyway :P

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Somebody mentioned that the Taint on saidin doesn't come every time. I disagree. That's such a fundamental feature of the Age, something like that wouldn't change, at least not from turning to turning. Maybe over the course of hundreds of turnings of the Wheel, but RJ has said major things, such as gender equality coming about and existing in the Third Age, are characteristics of the Age, and would be a major shift that wouldn't happen.

 

I believe that RJ said that the major characteristics of the ages are always the same but the minor details can be different. For instance sometimes it's Saidin that's tainted and during other turnings it's Saidar. The feature of a taint on one of the two is a constant but which can change depending on how prior events unfold. I got the feeling from the pillars that a future dominated by the Seanchan is eminent but how it happens is can be altered.

Your post sparked off an interesting thought - has the Dragon ever been reborn as a woman? After all, if saidar has been tainted in a different Age, then maybe it was because of that?

 

Hmmm.

 

According to RJ, souls dont change gender. So Birgitte will always be female, Rand will always be male, etc etc. Although Birgitte in a male body is basically Mat anyway :P

Ha, I suppose it makes sense if everything is as linear as that.

 

Makes me wonder, though, that if the Dragon is the "avatar" for saidin users, who is the female equivalent? Lanfear?

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Your post sparked off an interesting thought - has the Dragon ever been reborn as a woman? After all, if saidar has been tainted in a different Age, then maybe it was because of that?

 

Hmmm.

 

The Dragon is always a man. Gender is tied to the soul. RJ did say this though:

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

 

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

 

Q: Yes, yes.

 

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

So, saidar could easily have been tainted too. This raises the possibility that if the Pattern drifted enough there might be a female equivalent to the Dragon, and she'd be responsible for tainting saidar, etc. Or maybe it's happened, and the Pattern occasionally switches from male messiah to female messiah. Kinda like a magnetic pole flip thing. Of course, there's zero actual information on this, and likely will never be:

 

CNN Chat 12 December 2000

Question from Jonan: Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another Age, another Turning of the Wheel, that saidar could be tainted instead of saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

Robert Jordan: That is not something I intend to explore.

 

So it's just interesting speculation.

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Your post sparked off an interesting thought - has the Dragon ever been reborn as a woman? After all, if saidar has been tainted in a different Age, then maybe it was because of that?

 

Hmmm.

 

The Dragon is always a man. Gender is tied to the soul. RJ did say this though:

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

 

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

 

Q: Yes, yes.

 

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

So, saidar could easily have been tainted too. This raises the possibility that if the Pattern drifted enough there might be a female equivalent to the Dragon, and she'd be responsible for tainting saidar, etc. Or maybe it's happened, and the Pattern occasionally switches from male messiah to female messiah. Kinda like a magnetic pole flip thing. Of course, there's zero actual information on this, and likely will never be:

 

CNN Chat 12 December 2000

Question from Jonan: Mr. Jordan, is it possible that in another Age, another Turning of the Wheel, that saidar could be tainted instead of saidin? This relates to the Female Dragon Theory.

Robert Jordan: That is not something I intend to explore.

 

So it's just interesting speculation.

Thanks for that :).

 

Any thoughts on who the female equivalent of the Dragon is? So far, only Lanfear fits the bill, being the strongest female channeler in the world and LTT's former lover.

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