Everyone hates the Seanchan but me?

[Cut Strand]

^^I think you are confusing rights with "what is allowed". Rights cannot be taken away.

I am not sure if you are just being contrary to tease me or if you are naive.

 

"Rights" are "What is allowed."

 

"Inalienable rights" is really just an example of the golden rule. We want them, therefore we all need to have them.

 

But in reality, one person's rights come down to what that one person can enforce (or have enforced for them).

 

For example, you could kill me, thereby taking away my right to live. But you don't because (1) you don't know where to find me and (2) either aren't willing "to pay the price" or aren't insane (insane meaning "you don't acknowledge the price of such an act").

[WhiskyJack]

^^I think you are confusing rights with "what is allowed". Rights cannot be taken away.

I am not sure if you are just being contrary to tease me or if you are naive.

 

"Rights" are "What is allowed."

 

"Inalienable rights" is really just an example of the golden rule. We want them, therefore we all need to have them.

 

But in reality, one person's rights come down to what that one person can enforce (or have enforced for them).

 

For example, you could kill me, thereby taking away my right to live. But you don't because (1) you don't know where to find me and (2) either aren't willing "to pay the price" or aren't insane (insane meaning "you don't acknowledge the price of such an act").

 

No they are NOT. What is allowed here is what "owners" allow slave to have. These "rights" can be taken away at any time.

 

Yes, having rights on paper is different from then having them in real life.

[Cut Strand]

Google "define: rights"

 

First five:

 

# Rights are variously construed as legal, social, or moral freedoms to act or refrain from acting, or entitlements to be acted upon or not acted upon. While the concept is fundamental to civilized societies, there is considerable disagreement about what is meant precisely by the term rights. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights

 

# Righted - Capsizing refers to when a boat or ship is tipped over until disabled. The act of reversing a capsized vessel is called righting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righted

-- Not really relevant... Although the Seanchan did have to cross a big ocean, so they might have had to right a few ships.

 

# Powers or privileges granted by an agreement or law.

www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/definiti.shtml

 

# The interest that one has in a piece of intellectual property. The property interest possessed under law or custom and agreement in an intangible thing especially of a literary or artistic nature.

lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/techdocs/repository/gengloss.html

-- This is more like "copy rights" but it is still something that is allowed.

 

# Description: Entitlements assured by custom, law or property. Source: Specialized encyclopedia and dictionaries

ec.europa.eu/research/biosociety/library/glossarylist_en.cfm

 

Most of these sound an awful lot like "what you are allowed to do (and what you aren't allowed to do)".

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

Most of these sound an awful lot like "what you are allowed to do (and what you aren't allowed to do)".

 

 

Dude, read the WHOLE thing. In case of slaves, what is allowed is what their owners think slaves should have(or not). They don't need to follow the same law and they can arbitrarily take those rights away from slaves.

 

Free people can demand, slaves cannot. I am making myself clear?

[didymos]

I don't really see too many important differences between Seanchan da'covale and the servants in the various palaces of the Westlands.

 

Really? You didn't notice the bit where they have no choice at all about becoming da'covale or what work they will be made to do once they are (not to mention the really messed up crap like being expected to commit suicide when your owner dies). And the " but they're criminals" thing doesn't fly: there's no good evidence for this notion that being sent to the block is the main form of judicial punishment in Seanchan. We know, for instance, that execution is quite popular, as all those tarred heads on spikes in Ebou Dar can attest. "The block", when it comes up in the books, is mostly depicted as a tool of political control that plays on fears of shame and humiliation, or just simple chattel slavery (like with "rebels" who had the temerity to not want to get invaded and conquered by a bunch of people showing up out of nowhere and claiming the Westlands "belonged" to them).

 

And I know you handwaved it, but the hereditary aspect can't just be dismissed so easily. I can't guarantee it, but I'd be willing to bet the majority (or at least a very sizable minority) of da'covale were born into it. Next runner up for "Largest Contributor to the Imperial Da'covale Supply" would likely be prisoners taken when quelling unrest in recently conquered territory (the Consolidation only recently ended, and lots of regions were only tenuously controlled by the Empire). The Return may even have pushed it into first place for awhile.

 

And yes, I do get that Westlanders often have no effective choice either, but da'covale don't even have one in principle (unless they get manumitted, which by all indications so far is an extremely rare event).

[didymos]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

[Cut Strand]

Most of these sound an awful lot like "what you are allowed to do (and what you aren't allowed to do)".

Dude, read the WHOLE thing. In case of slaves, what is allowed is what their owners think slaves should have(or not). They don't need to follow the same law and they can arbitrarily take those rights away from slaves. I HOPE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR THIS TIME.

The only thing that is clear is that you can't get over the term "slave."

 

Second (and on) generation da'covale are trying to redeem a crime their ancestors committed through good service. And that is all their owners ask of them. Now the idea of being owned is anathema to us (probably because deep down we're all bastards and wouldn't trust ourselves to be owned by a copy of ourselves), but the Seanchan don't seem to be like that.

 

The Seanchan are a people that immediately after conquering an area, pass the weapons back to people after they swear loyalty (they resisted because they thought we were going to be worse than what they had before). An extreme example of, "let bygones be bygones."

[Sharaman]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

They are - of certain classes of da'covale.

Even the others (the criminals who have been sentenced to slavery) can't be killed arbitrarily or beaten for no reason, as Cut Strand pointed out.

[WhiskyJack]

Most of these sound an awful lot like "what you are allowed to do (and what you aren't allowed to do)".

Dude, read the WHOLE thing. In case of slaves, what is allowed is what their owners think slaves should have(or not). They don't need to follow the same law and they can arbitrarily take those rights away from slaves. I HOPE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR THIS TIME.

The only thing that is clear is that you can't get over the term "slave."

 

Second (and on) generation da'covale are trying to redeem a crime their ancestors committed through good service. And that is all their owners ask of them. Now the idea of being owned is anathema to us (probably because deep down we're all bastards and wouldn't trust ourselves to be owned by a copy of ourselves), but the Seanchan don't seem to be like that.

 

The Seanchan are a people that immediately after conquering an area, pass the weapons back to people after they swear loyalty (they resisted because they thought we were going to be worse than what they had before). An extreme example of, "let bygones be bygones."

 

Yes because logic is always something you should ignore.

 

1) Not all da'covale are born slaves.Are you saying that it is right to punish someone for their parents "perceived" crime? Also, what reward is there for this good service? End of slavery?

 

2) Seanchan either kill or "sell" anyone who opposes them. Only those who surrender without resistance are allowed to "swear" fealty and live their lives. What example you have otherwise?

[WhiskyJack]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

They are - of certain classes of da'covale.

Even the others (the criminals who have been sentenced to slavery) can't be killed arbitrarily or beaten for no reason, as Cut Strand pointed out.

 

 

Sorry but I would like to see the actual quote. Tuon once said that she cannot talk back or slap someone who has just insulted her. She is not everyone. I would like to see if slave comment was her POV or a generic thing.

[didymos]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

They are - of certain classes of da'covale.

 

And therefore...NOT of da'covale in general. As I said.

[didymos]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

They are - of certain classes of da'covale.

Even the others (the criminals who have been sentenced to slavery) can't be killed arbitrarily or beaten for no reason, as Cut Strand pointed out.

 

 

Sorry but I would like to see the actual quote. Tuon once said that she cannot talk back or slap someone who has just insulted her. She is not everyone. I would like to see if slave comment was her POV or a generic thing.

 

 

The quote doesn't say what they think it says, best I can remember: Tuon (and others) don't personally discipline da'covale because that would be beneath them. They order someone of lesser importance to do it for them. Hence all the "have so-and-so beaten" stuff.

[Sharaman]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

They are - of certain classes of da'covale.

 

And therefore...NOT of da'covale in general. As I said.

There is no such thing as da'covale in general. Like the rest of Seanchan society they're divided into various classes that are all treated differently.

[didymos]

Read Cut Strand above, and read or reread the scenes involving Selucia, Karede and Domon.

 

Yes, because they're so obviously typical of da'covale in general.

They are - of certain classes of da'covale.

 

And therefore...NOT of da'covale in general. As I said.

There is no such thing as da'covale in general. Like the rest of Seanchan society they're divided into various classes that are all treated differently.

 

Then why do they have a word which applies to all of them? Because they're all owned. They are property. I don't see how you can argue about basic facts. Even so'jhin are da'covale. So are human Deathwatch Guards. So are most Seekers. They all have something in common: being slaves. So, yes, a general class of person exists: one who is owned.

[Loophole]

Just gonna put this out there, but people don't really have rights by default, the only rights we have are those we take or are given.

 

It just so happens that many of us on this site are lucky enough to live in countries where our governments give us "rights".

[didymos]

And here's a lovely example, from Karede's CoT chapter about the treatment of da'covale:

"She sleeps poorly,she snaps at her favorites, and has her property beaten over trifles. She ordered the death of one Seeker each day until matters are rectified, and only rescinded the order this morning, when she realized she might run out of Seekers before she ran out of days."

 

And you can't say "Suroth's a DF, that's why": this is a Seeker saying this. It's obviously quite legal. Karede doesn't bat an eye, either. And if you think no non-DF Seanchan do this sort of thing, well, you're fooling yourself.

[Cut Strand]

And I know you handwaved it, but the hereditary aspect can't just be dismissed so easily. I can't guarantee it, but I'd be willing to bet the majority (or at least a very sizable minority) of da'covale were born into it. Next runner up for "Largest Contributor to the Imperial Da'covale Supply" would likely be prisoners taken when quelling unrest in recently conquered territory (the Consolidation only recently ended, and lots of regions were only tenuously controlled by the Empire). The Return may even have pushed it into first place for awhile.

There isn't much that can justify the idea of hereditary da'covale (much tidier way of phrasing it) other than that they are still da'covale and not slaves.

 

And hereditary da'covale probably have it much better to sentenced da'covale. I don't think a sentenced da'covale could be admitted for the Deathwatch Guard (unless they volunteered to become da'covale? Can they do that?).

 

In real life, you could say that I am da'covale to the IRS. They demand a portion of my income in advance, and then, if they decide I overpaid, they refund a portion of that portion back to me. I could run from my responsibility to the IRS, but if I didn't run far enough, they would nail me with tax evasion which could result in unpleasant prison time.

 

Honestly, I don't think we really know enough about the Seanchan to properly despise them.

 

Has anyone seen the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy? Summary of it (spoilers) is a coca-cola bottle falls into the midst of a bushman tribe (it is in Australia right?), and this glass bottle proves tremendously useful to them (it can tenderize food, it can club people on the head, etc.), but then they realize they just have one and start fighting over it. Why did the Gods just give us one of these things (they don't know it is a bottle for a beverage)? So a a bushman takes the bottle and travels to return the bottle to the Gods to restore balance to his tribe.

 

To us, people using coke bottles to tenderize food is strange (also hilarious), but to that bushman, the strangeness is that we use such an object to hold a liquid we drink.

 

1) Not all da'covale are born slaves.Are you saying that it is right to punish someone for their parents "perceived" crime? Also, what reward is there for this good service? End of slavery?

And this is where you slip in the "double bind." Suddenly what I say is my opinion instead of defending a culture that is never fully explained to us.

 

But that's cool, I can easily defend positions I find morally abhorrent.

 

"Are you saying that it is right to punish someone for the parent's crime?" Depends.

 

First you have to define punished in the context. Is giving a person a purpose (to redeem their ancestor) and the opportunity to fulfill that purpose as a productive member of society (possibly a more productive and rewarded member of society) a punishment?

 

Does Karade seem to be punished for his ancestor's crime?

 

"Also, what reward is there for this good service? End of slavery?" *There was a brief break here, I was laughing really hard.*

 

No. The reward for good service (like work) is more service (like work). You don't throw away a tool that performs well, you take care of it. Also, da'covale and slaves are different.

 

The "Seanchan Secret Police" (The Seekers?) are da'covale (they have the raven and tower tattoos), and they have the right (read "something that is allowed") to pull down (and put to the question) anyone, however they acknowledge that if they use that power on an innocent person they will be executed.

 

Being da'covale could be compared to being naturalized as a citizen in the United States of America. Sure you can't be the President (you weren't born a citizen), but you could become a Hollywood super star, then become the governor of the 8th largest economy in the world (2008). But a da'covale could also be a supreme f*** up and used to sort toilet paper in a closet.

 

But the same could be said about a lot of people (you can go far, or you could be part-time cashier at Trader Joe's).

[Crael123]

Yeah i think your the only one that likes them.

[Loophole]

No I like them too, say what you will but they provide stability for most of their people. I would rather live in Seanchan controlled land then anywhere else in randland atm... unless of course I could channel.

 

Also imagine if in our world a bunch of people started channelling, i know i would abuse my power. I can see why they wanted to control this power.

 

Take one look at a thread devoted to "what would you do with the power" and see how many people bring up compulsion.

[Sharaman]

No I like them too, say what you will but they provide stability for most of their people. I would rather live in Seanchan controlled land then anywhere else in randland atm... unless of course I could channel.

 

Also imagine if in our world a bunch of people started channelling, i know i would abuse my power. I can see why they wanted to control this power.

 

Take one look at a thread devoted to "what would you do with the power" and see how many people bring up compulsion.

They're way better than most of the Southlanders.

The Borderers are nuts in many ways but they don't have time to waste on nonsense.

[yoniy0]

It's not. I consider slavery an abomination, and NOT because it's a 'destructive economic system'. It's a western thing, perhaps, but not an American one.

It's a catch-all word used to describe a whole pile of things.

 

In the systems I'm talking about, a standard punishment for a criminal was slavery for a prescribed period.

I don't see that as being much different from being sentenced to jail and forced to repair roads, or sew mailbags, for a prescribed period.

 

It's also a word used in many instances for a high-ranking servant of the state - a very different thing indeed.

It's like a modern corporate non-compete agreement in those cases - the "slave" is somebody with an enormous amount of influence, power and access to confidential information. He/ she cannot be allowed to resign from the job and take up similar employment with a different boss. Again, I don't see that as particularly pernicious. How do you think the US would react if say, Hillary Clinton resigned and was promptly hired by Putin or Ahmadijinad as an adviser?

 

If you're going to look at Seanchan institutions with modern sensibilities, distinguish between those two cases where the word slavery means very different things.

 

If you're talking about damane, yes that is something that most people in WoT object to, because it is racism - people are being discriminated against, for something that is an inborn quality, and they cannot help possessing.

I meant, it's not a US-specific issue. I'm not a US citizen (nor have I ever spent a long period of time in the US, though I have to admit I do consume their culture to some extent).

And you can't hide the fact that while some da'covel receive high honors, hardly all do. And they are born into it. Escape from da'covel status is possible, but it depends greatly on your owners. It's NOT equal opportunity. So, yeah. da'covel is slavery at its most barbarian form, no matter how you try to dress it up.

Just to clarify, I don't consider Roman-slaves better off than Afro-Americans in the last century. Sure, there're degrees in slaves' comfort of life, but they're slaves nonetheless. The way you treat your slaves doesn't redeem the practice itself.

[anotherfingolfin]

they have their pros and cons. sadly the westlanders are not monolithic enough for a true comparison. that said, if i were to be an average joe in either culture, i would choose the seanchan. in general people live better lives in seanchan. a not-insignificant portion of the remainder ('slaves') arguably live good lives too. it is the absolute dregs of seanchan society who live lives no better than those of the dregs of westland society.

it is a matter of whether the principle of the seanchan version of slavery is overarching enough of a fault, to your mind, that it makes you overlook the other advantages they offer. to me, it is a huge deal, but not enough for me to hate them. it is enough of a deal to make me think westland society is better overall, but only marginally so.

[waffle]

This appears to be a clash of world ideals. On one side we have Cut Strand (and sharaman?) who support a totalitarian rule/dictatorship. Free will should only belong to the some leaders, everyone else is just a tool to be used. Some classes of property can live their own lives in their free time when they are not necessary for some other task. An ant colony.

 

 

On the other side we have people who want a free society where people are not property to be bought and sold.

 

 

I can see why they wanted to control this power.

 

Aren´t they abusing it too? They seem to be doing the exact same thing with the power that they claim to be trying to avoid.

 

 

 

And if the Seanchan way of doing things is as good as some people seem to think, why do they too have rebellions?

[Aiyen kin Leary]

The Seanchan have much to recommend them-a more organized (at least pre-Semirhage!) infrastructure than the Westlands, a skilled and flexible military (when they lose, they LEARN from it-what a novel idea ;)) and the stability to bring significant improvement to places like Ebou Dar. However, they also have a brutal, totalitarian government complete with secret police and professional tortureres, the practice of enslaving their most capable people as damane, and the practice of enslaving others as da'covale. Don't tell me da'covale isn't slavery. In the Old Tongue, the word means "one who is owned"-the very definition of slavery.

 

Now, enslaving those guilty of major crimes is a great idea: why keep a criminal idle in prison when you could have them work their keep? Those who moan about the cost of keeping criminals locked up should maybe consider this...

 

However, da'covale do NOT consist merely of deserving criminals. Descendants of da'covale are in the same boat. They may be treated better (or worse; we've seen how much a da'covale's life depends on the whims of their master), but they're not free by any stretch of the imagination. Also, given the insanely strict and arbitrary nature of Seanchan law, one could easily be condemned to that life because of something silly like looking at the Empress, may she live only if she gets her head on straight.

 

The Seanchan appear to be set up by RJ as a mixed culture, full of good and evil alike, a moral dilemma with which to confront the Westlands. They can be very commendable at times (think Tylee or Egeanin), but they're also rife with blatant fascism and complete slavery. If you think all of this is OK, well, you're in the same boat as the Seanchan and there's not that much more to discuss. This is the internet, not the killing fields of Almoth Plain, so we don't really need to worry about it :) But just consider before you start trying to support these invaders who are already responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths-what would you think if you saw the Seanchan in the real world, instead of admiring them from the safely of the printed page?

[Guest]

what most of you fail to grasp though, is the historical point of view that this world takes place in. During the 17th century nationalism wasnt really that strong in people, for the common man it didnt matter much who ruled his country, as long as he was given relative security and taxes at an acceptable level.

 

its in the upper reaches of society where who runs the country matters, and how much influence i.e nobles have on the ruling body. In the 17th century the singleruling king or monarch was emerging, at the nobles influence expense. earlier the nobles had a share in ruling, and they had the task of defending the country and supporting the kings wars. the seanchan is closer to that singleruling monarch with his own armies, and nobles are merely "worth" more than the common man, not much else. wotland is more of a feudalsystem world where the nobles have some hold on their monarch.

 

this is where the two crash, and why the seanchan will face so much trouble, because they have a shitload of nobles in the various countries that will not subject themselves to being insignificant. they will not either, be suspect to being made da'covale should they look the empress in the eyes (i mean come on, for crying out loud, do you wipe your own ass or is that beneath you as well?) the seanchan ruling body needs to be put in its place and the way i see it, only rand and his asha'man can make that happen, and please lord, let that happen!