Discuss Prologue Through Chapter 45

[WhiskyJack]

Those of you saying "Egwene doesn't have a plan and Rand does, and therefore Egwene should put up or shut up" are committing the fallacious thinking that hasty action is better than none at all,

 

Especially as it seems Rand does NOT have a plan...

 

He's basically just gambling hoping Wheel and Pattern will do the work for him.

 

 

Well you are right since you obviously know what will be in tMOL. All us mortals can only guess:)

[WhiskyJack]

Does Rand have the time to patiently outline what he intends? To sell his plan to a hostile market? Too put everything on hold while the Aes Sedai debate what to do? From the reports of how his foray into Tar Valon plays out, it seems he doesn't think so.

 

What plan? He doesn't HAVE a plan unless you count "let's gamble and hope pattern helps us" as a plan...

 

That's not much of a plan...

 

If Rand had plan the sure atleast there would be plan but since there's no plan whatsoever...

 

We as readers have benefit of knowing that it will work out as Rand is hero of the story and this is book with story and it won't end up in DO's victory but funny that characters in that book don't have that information we readers have that allows some of us go all high and mighty.

 

You were Egwene knowing what she knows and no more->you would oppose Rand 99% certainly.

 

So Cadusane knows Rand's plan and she already objected to it or she doesn't know what he is planning?

[WhiskyJack]

1) Being an Aes Sedai, she will not bother to acquire more information. I guess she did not in the book.

2) I am 100% sure even if Rand had told her "everything", she would have objected still the same. Things like "it's too risky, how do you know this, you will destroy the world" blah blah. May be Rand knows that he can never convince Eqwene or any Aes Sedai so he simply didn't bother to tell them anymore than what he plans to do.

 

You are acting here in the same manner you accuse Egwene acting :) Ironic that.

 

 

Hardly. I have the luxury of reading the book so I have way more information than Eqwene or you think otherwise?

[WhiskyJack]

In fact she doesn't know diddly about how to proceed and neither does anybody else.

 

Except the Dragon.

 

Dragon doesn't know about how to go on either...He doesn't have ANY sort of plan. Or if he has it's basically "let's hope pattern and creator to help us since I don't have any idea how to proceed".

 

 

How do you know that? We can only guess or you have read something in the book (or know what will happen in tMOL) that we have missed? Assumptions, assumptions? Rand can be blamed for not informing Egwene his complete plan but he cannot be blamed for not knowing what he is doing. Is there Rand's POV in ToM where he thinks he is just winging it? Lets not put assumptions into the discussion board. May be you are right and he is just hoping it will work but you don't know for sure so just stick to facts.

[tneva82]

Hardly. I have luxury reading the book so I have way more information than Eqwene or you think otherwise?

 

Rand doesn't have plan. Egwene opposes Rand from breaking seal just like that without hearing any sort of semi-decent plan. Well gee that's a) normal b) sane c) responsible.

 

Rand is just hoping for creator to save his ass as he has zero idea how to proceed.

[WhiskyJack]

Hardly. I have luxury reading the book so I have way more information than Eqwene or you think otherwise?

 

If you have read the book you would know that Rand doesn't have plan. Egwene opposes Rand from breaking seal just like that without hearing any sort of semi-decent plan. Well gee that's a) normal b) sane c) responsible.

 

Rand is just hoping for creator to save his ass as he has zero idea how to proceed.

 

 

Er...So again, how do you know Rand doesn't have a plan? Because he didn't tell Egwene anything or he actually said that he is just hoping it will work?

[WhiskyJack]

By the way, whats a semi-decent plan? Is Eqwene even capable of understanding a "semi-decent" plan? ANY plan proposed that is meant to seal the DO will be fraught with Danger. I can understand Cadsuane debating the merit of plan against DO but Egwene? Did anyone wonder why Rand didn't bother to tell her more that what he did when he took his time (and risk) to walk to WT alone?

[tneva82]

By the way, whats a semi-decent plan? Is Eqwene even capable of understanding a "semi-decent" plan? ANY plan proposed that is meant to seal the DO will be fraught with Danger. I can understand Cadsuane debating the merit of plan against DO but Egwene? Did anyone wonder why Rand didn't bother to tell her more that what he did when he took his time (and risk) to walk to WT alone?

 

Atleast it would be a plan. Rand comes in and says to effect of "I'm going to increase DO's effect on the world and I have no idea what to do next". Hardly suprising Egwene doesn't take that well...Would YOU take it well if somebody comes and says that? Oh yeah let's give the one who wants to destroy the world bigger access to the world without any idea what to do next. That sure sounds smart and sensible!

 

That's not a plan.

 

That's not even decent plan.

 

That's just "I guess I might just as well try to fullfill prophecy but I have no idea about how to do that".

 

So Rand breaks in seals, DO gets increased access to the world which is Bad Thing and then Rand does...What? He doesn't even know it himself. ATM unless he can figure out what he's going to do he's not going to do anything after breaking the seals. Except hope like hell.

[WhiskyJack]

By the way, whats a semi-decent plan? Is Eqwene even capable of understanding a "semi-decent" plan? ANY plan proposed that is meant to seal the DO will be fraught with Danger. I can understand Cadsuane debating the merit of plan against DO but Egwene? Did anyone wonder why Rand didn't bother to tell her more that what he did when he took his time (and risk) to walk to WT alone?

 

Atleast it would be a plan. Rand comes in and says to effect of "I'm going to increase DO's effect on the world and I have no idea what to do next". Hardly suprising Egwene doesn't take that well...Would YOU take it well if somebody comes and says that? Oh yeah let's give the one who wants to destroy the world bigger access to the world without any idea what to do next. That sure sounds smart and sensible!

 

That's not a plan.

 

That's not even decent plan.

 

That's just "I guess I might just as well try to fullfill prophecy but I have no idea about how to do that".

 

So Rand breaks in seals, DO gets increased access to the world which is Bad Thing and then Rand does...What? He doesn't even know it himself. ATM unless he can figure out what he's going to do he's not going to do anything after breaking the seals. Except hope like hell.

 

 

Seriously! Is that from book? What exactly are we debating here? If we cannot stick to the facts in the book, lets end this discussion here.

[Guest Rambear]

Right. Lets clarify the debate.

 

Some here claim Egwene has a point claiming Rand needs to be opposed as Rand seems to be rather clueless as to what to do.

 

Others, such as you Whiskey, seem to hold that Rand might indeed have a master plan.

 

In your query, yes, the point made Tneva logically holds true. Rand says in chapter 3 that he'll destroy the seals, but that he does not have any idea how to fix it afterwards.

 

Similarly, in chapter 13 he asks Min to help him sort out what the hell to do.

 

Now while you might argue that he asks but has an idea, I think the end with Rand and Tam makes it such an intense scene that I doubt Rand would throw a curve-ball here.

 

Ie, at this point, Rand has no clue.

 

Now, back to Egwene's POV-> Raging madman walks into the tower-> Raging madman seems composed and calm -> Calm madman proposes to break seals, without a clue how to fix it.-> Egwene is understandablya tadbit worried about whether Rand has thought the whole thing through.

 

While you might in fact be right (which we'll know in a year hopefully), there is more evidence in favour of Rand being a bit clueless than against. Sure LTT's memories help, but equally convincing arguments have been made about how Moridin would like to see the seals Kaput.

 

With Rand going all Jezus Christ on our asses, it might very well be that his plan is indeed based on the pattern working its magic. Wh knows, maybe he'll break some bread, feed the poor and fart the bore close with his awesome light twisting holy power. Or it involves his reference to the True Power when he meets with the Borderlanders, or any other thing we come up with. While I am sure he'll figure something out, assuming he has at this point in time is rather premature.

[NARISMA]

I see that some of you have read the book already.Can someone please write me the summary.Pls pls pls ........

[Sharaman]

I see that some of you have read the book already.Can someone please write me the summary.Pls pls pls ........

Rand, Perrin and Mat all do interesting things.

We discover more about how Travel, TAR, other magical elements, etc., work.

Elayne doesn't have a bath.

Egwene witters around and also does some interesting stuff.

Avi has a couple of very powerful and complex scenes.

A pair of DFs have a hot and heavby pillow friending session at a very inappropriate moment.

We don't learn how Asmo died.

Taim glowers enthusiastically.

Lan wanders around in a hassled fashion.

Galad, Gawyn do their celebrated dual-imitation of idiots.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Or, in an even more succinct summary -

 

Nobody does much that is helpful, although a couple of characters have interesting moments.

 

Now, back to the food fight

 

Those saying Egwene is doing the right thing are definitely making assumptions. Nothing Rand seems to be doing says definitely he has no plan. It does say he has no certainty. It does say that he recognizes that what he intends to do is fraught with danger. It does say that he's still taking council, that he's continuing to look for a better, more certain way to proceed.

 

IOW, it points out how rational Rand is.

 

Egwene's actions are the irrational ones. It's pure knee-jerk fear, and that's never "rational."

 

Those saying Latra Posae did the "right" thing need to look closer at that, also.

 

What was her plan? Basically to do nothing. She wanted to use the Choeden Kal to erect a shield around the Bore and then study the problem. IOW, hers was an entirely bureaucratic approach.

 

Let's assume for a second that the access keys were available and her plan could have been implemented. What would be the logical outcome? Since both CK were needed to built her shield, both halves of the One Power would have been accessible to the DO's influence. Does that mean that both halves of the OP would have become tainted? Almost certainly IF the shield were effective at keeping the DO contained and halting its influence on the world. If the shield wasn't effective then the DO simply would have won outright and it wouldn't have mattered.

 

Either way, Latra Posae did the entirely wrong thing.

[CTKShadow]

Which chapter was Rand's PoV where he reveals (to the reader) that he has no plan? I've read up to the beginning of 47, and don't remember it...This could be because I've been up for nearly 24 hours and have forgotten what I read before work, but every scene with Rand in it I recall from someone else's PoV. Min, Nynaeve, Egwene, and secondary/minor characters. But not Rand.

[Galium]

A pair of DFs have a hot and heavby pillow friending session at a very inappropriate moment.

 

Maybe I skimmed over it or something... but what?

[DPT24]

A pair of DFs have a hot and heavby pillow friending session at a very inappropriate moment.

 

Maybe I skimmed over it or something... but what?

 

Prolouge

[capuga]

The main problem with Egwene in regards to this is not that she thought Rand's plan was crazy. Its probably wise to be skeptical of his plan. The problem is that she just assumes he is wrong with absolutely no consideration that he might have some information or knowledge that she does not. He is the Dragon Reborn, it is entirely reasonable to think that he might know something about how to perform the function he was born for. Even if he doesn't share his plan with her it would have been nice if she had at least considered this. Instead she just immediately assumes that he is crazy and sets about opposing him and undermining his authority.

 

However, I also believe that Rand did this intentionally. I think he knew how Egwene would react and is using her to finish uniting the nations so he can concentrate on other things.

 

While I find Terez's theory about Herid Fel's note and books being planted by Moridin very thought provoking and interesting (one of the best ones of her's I have read) I don't agree. I think Rand is correct that the seals need to be broken. I also think he is correct that if he doesn't act soon, there won't be much world left to save.

 

Regarding the Rand/Moridin link - Does anyone else think this has something to do with the blackness that Nyneave saw inside Rand's mind? I think the blackness is Moridin that Rand (the light) is now fighting off and he will need Nyneave to work her new madness Healing skill to separate the two of them.

[Kahlika]

Regarding the Rand/Moridin link - Does anyone else think this has something to do with the blackness that Nyneave saw inside Rand's mind? I think the blackness is Moridin that Rand (the light) is now fighting off and he will need Nyneave to work her new madness Healing skill to separate the two of them.

 

That sort of ignores the fact that Rand had the same taint as the other Asha'man, just much larger. Nynaeve noted similarities and differences when she compared Rand with the other Asha'man in her PoV, she saw and noted the similarities in structure etc (tiny thorns/blackness), and noted the differences that she did see, which was that Rand's was larger (suggesting how far into madness he'd fallen). You'd think she would have noted if there had been more differences with Rand's. So unless all of the Asha'man who have been affected by the taint are brain linked to Moridin (which isn't really likely), that theory doesn't really have any basis.

 

Added to which the blackness on Rand's mind is noted as being held away by the light in his brain (there really needs to be a better description than that), the blackness isn't touching his mind anymore, yet Rand is still clearly merging with Moridin. If the blackness was the link why is he continuing to merge now that the link has been stopped from affecting him?

 

I'm not sure why people are reading more into it. We've know about the taint since the first page of the first book, we've seen how it's affected Rand and the other Asha'man. We now know what it actually looks like in the brain. I really don't think there's more to it than it being the taint (aside from Nyenaeve generally being awesome and healing it of course).

[capuga]

Regarding the Rand/Moridin link - Does anyone else think this has something to do with the blackness that Nyneave saw inside Rand's mind? I think the blackness is Moridin that Rand (the light) is now fighting off and he will need Nyneave to work her new madness Healing skill to separate the two of them.

 

That sort of ignores the fact that Rand had the same taint as the other Asha'man, just much larger. Nynaeve noted similarities and differences when she compared Rand with the other Asha'man in her PoV, she saw and noted the similarities in structure etc (tiny thorns/blackness), and noted the differences that she did see, which was that Rand's was larger (suggesting how far into madness he'd fallen). You'd think she would have noted if there had been more differences with Rand's. So unless all of the Asha'man who have been affected by the taint are brain linked to Moridin (which isn't really likely), that theory doesn't really have any basis.

 

Added to which the blackness on Rand's mind is noted as being held away by the light in his brain (there really needs to be a better description than that), the blackness isn't touching his mind anymore, yet Rand is still clearly merging with Moridin. If the blackness was the link why is he continuing to merge now that the link has been stopped from affecting him?

 

I'm not sure why people are reading more into it. We've know about the taint since the first page of the first book, we've seen how it's affected Rand and the other Asha'man. We now know what it actually looks like in the brain. I really don't think there's more to it than it being the taint (aside from Nyenaeve generally being awesome and healing it of course).

 

You are probably correct that I am reading too much into this and it is probably just madness. But it is much, much more vast then Naeff's but Rand didn't seem to be that much more insane than Naeff so there seems to be something more going on with Rand. Also this gives me a viable alternative to how the Rand/Moridin link can be resolved other than the body swap theory which I've always hoped doesn't happen.

[Alkazor]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but everyone seems to be so obsessed with how he will re-seal the DO's prison....

 

Why? That's never worked before. If it had, he would be sealed... wasn't the whole reason they had to re-seal him in the AoL because some bloody idiot tried to find all of his tasty power? I always assumed Rand would face off against the dark one in one final battle of sexy, sexy literature and then be whisked off to the epilogues where he would bleed a little or something... I hadn't really worked that much out actually. Anyway, the only real hole there is if time is a wheel and needs to be repeated, then the Creator would have to make a new DO or something...

 

Again, I could just be really dimwitted...

[sdelu]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but everyone seems to be so obsessed with how he will re-seal the DO's prison....

 

Why? That's never worked before. If it had, he would be sealed... wasn't the whole reason they had to re-seal him in the AoL because some bloody idiot tried to find all of his tasty power? I always assumed Rand would face off against the dark one in one final battle of sexy, sexy literature and then be whisked off to the epilogues where he would bleed a little or something... I hadn't really worked that much out actually. Anyway, the only real hole there is if time is a wheel and needs to be repeated, then the Creator would have to make a new DO or something...

 

Again, I could just be really dimwitted...

 

 

I think the DO will just be simply sealed again, though perhaps in a more permanent fashion. Really, I feel that destroying the DO would kind of go against the entire series. So, you're right, if time is a Wheel there would either need to be a new DO or the DO would only be sealed.... Personally, I never got the idea that the wheel would be broken and time would become linear; the whole idea is to preserve the wheel and the pattern. Destroying the DO might break what they're trying to preserve, just as freeing him might.

[Alkazor]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but everyone seems to be so obsessed with how he will re-seal the DO's prison....

 

Why? That's never worked before. If it had, he would be sealed... wasn't the whole reason they had to re-seal him in the AoL because some bloody idiot tried to find all of his tasty power? I always assumed Rand would face off against the dark one in one final battle of sexy, sexy literature and then be whisked off to the epilogues where he would bleed a little or something... I hadn't really worked that much out actually. Anyway, the only real hole there is if time is a wheel and needs to be repeated, then the Creator would have to make a new DO or something...

 

Again, I could just be really dimwitted...

 

 

I think the DO will just be simply sealed again, though perhaps in a more permanent fashion. Really, I feel that destroying the DO would kind of go against the entire series. So, you're right, if time is a Wheel there would either need to be a new DO or the DO would only be sealed.... Personally, I never got the idea that the wheel would be broken and time would become linear; the whole idea is to preserve the wheel and the pattern. Destroying the DO might break what they're trying to preserve, just as freeing him might.

 

Couldn't there be a balance? Like the heroes of the light who are continually reborn into the pattern? Rand and Moridin both seem to have had issues in the past with time repeating itself. If that were the case, then we could just read the 14 book epic over again and consider it the next 14 books. Which I fully intend to do btw.

 

EDIT: I also sort of forgot to mention my issue with time repeating itself if Balefire is ever involved... I mean, if you balefire the forsaken, how could time repeat itself? Would they just be born exactly as they were and have to be balefired again? What aout Hopper who was eradicated from the wolf dream, does that mean he would be reborn as well, despite having been utterly obliterated? It would seem after an important character gets Balefired, there would be no way to recreate everything exactly, eliminating the possibility of a wheel. Again, just random speculation.

[sdelu]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but everyone seems to be so obsessed with how he will re-seal the DO's prison....

 

Why? That's never worked before. If it had, he would be sealed... wasn't the whole reason they had to re-seal him in the AoL because some bloody idiot tried to find all of his tasty power? I always assumed Rand would face off against the dark one in one final battle of sexy, sexy literature and then be whisked off to the epilogues where he would bleed a little or something... I hadn't really worked that much out actually. Anyway, the only real hole there is if time is a wheel and needs to be repeated, then the Creator would have to make a new DO or something...

 

Again, I could just be really dimwitted...

 

 

I think the DO will just be simply sealed again, though perhaps in a more permanent fashion. Really, I feel that destroying the DO would kind of go against the entire series. So, you're right, if time is a Wheel there would either need to be a new DO or the DO would only be sealed.... Personally, I never got the idea that the wheel would be broken and time would become linear; the whole idea is to preserve the wheel and the pattern. Destroying the DO might break what they're trying to preserve, just as freeing him might.

 

Couldn't there be a balance? Like the heroes of the light who are continually reborn into the pattern? Rand and Moridin both seem to have had issues in the past with time repeating itself. If that were the case, then we could just read the 14 book epic over again and consider it the next 14 books. Which I fully intend to do btw.

 

EDIT: I also sort of forgot to mention my issue with time repeating itself if Balefire is ever involved... I mean, if you balefire the forsaken, how could time repeat itself? Would they just be born exactly as they were and have to be balefired again? What aout Hopper who was eradicated from the wolf dream, does that mean he would be reborn as well, despite having been utterly obliterated? It would seem after an important character gets Balefired, there would be no way to recreate everything exactly, eliminating the possibility of a wheel. Again, just random speculation.

 

 

I don't think the wheel is exact. I don't think there's a Seanchan every third age, or the CK in every AoL, or that it is Rand and LTT every second and third age. I do think that the major events of the wheel are similar (or perhaps the Ages) -- ie, there is an AoL, and they rediscover the DO... but the people themselves aren't necessarily always the same. That's what I always figured anyway. And there's Rand's epiphany at the end of tGS. I think he'd find it remarkably odd to have memories of being Rand in the past, even if it was just a brief glimpse ;p

 

As for balefire, they are not balefired out of existence; they're just killed in the past so to speak. So they can be reborn no problem.

[1eejit]

And this Age there is a true wildcard in the mix. Things could get interesting ;)

[Alkazor]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but everyone seems to be so obsessed with how he will re-seal the DO's prison....

 

Why? That's never worked before. If it had, he would be sealed... wasn't the whole reason they had to re-seal him in the AoL because some bloody idiot tried to find all of his tasty power? I always assumed Rand would face off against the dark one in one final battle of sexy, sexy literature and then be whisked off to the epilogues where he would bleed a little or something... I hadn't really worked that much out actually. Anyway, the only real hole there is if time is a wheel and needs to be repeated, then the Creator would have to make a new DO or something...

 

Again, I could just be really dimwitted...

 

 

I think the DO will just be simply sealed again, though perhaps in a more permanent fashion. Really, I feel that destroying the DO would kind of go against the entire series. So, you're right, if time is a Wheel there would either need to be a new DO or the DO would only be sealed.... Personally, I never got the idea that the wheel would be broken and time would become linear; the whole idea is to preserve the wheel and the pattern. Destroying the DO might break what they're trying to preserve, just as freeing him might.

 

Couldn't there be a balance? Like the heroes of the light who are continually reborn into the pattern? Rand and Moridin both seem to have had issues in the past with time repeating itself. If that were the case, then we could just read the 14 book epic over again and consider it the next 14 books. Which I fully intend to do btw.

 

EDIT: I also sort of forgot to mention my issue with time repeating itself if Balefire is ever involved... I mean, if you balefire the forsaken, how could time repeat itself? Would they just be born exactly as they were and have to be balefired again? What aout Hopper who was eradicated from the wolf dream, does that mean he would be reborn as well, despite having been utterly obliterated? It would seem after an important character gets Balefired, there would be no way to recreate everything exactly, eliminating the possibility of a wheel. Again, just random speculation.

 

 

I don't think the wheel is exact. I don't think there's a Seanchan every third age, or the CK in every AoL, or that it is Rand and LTT every second and third age. I do think that the major events of the wheel are similar (or perhaps the Ages) -- ie, there is an AoL, and they rediscover the DO... but the people themselves aren't necessarily always the same. That's what I always figured anyway. And there's Rand's epiphany at the end of tGS. I think he'd find it remarkably odd to have memories of being Rand in the past, even if it was just a brief glimpse ;p

 

As for balefire, they are not balefired out of existence; they're just killed in the past so to speak. So they can be reborn no problem.

 

Never mind, this is what confused me."Balefire is an extremely dangerous weapon of the One Power. It actually destroys the thread of existence back into time, the time being proportional to the strength of the beam. Balefire was used in the War of Power destroying entire cities until it was learned that excessive use of balefire could threaten the existence of the entire Pattern. "

 

Anyway...