What has Moiraine been up to in Finnland?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Moiraine's three wishes were:

 

1. I want Lanfear's strength in the OP

 

2. I want Lanfear's knowledge of the OP

 

3. I want to live.

 

The Price was she couldn't leave.

 

 

I think it was more likley:

 

1. I want to help the Dragon win the last Battle

2. I want to ensure the Dragon lives to fight the last battle

3. I want to ensure that the Dragon is not turned against the Light before the last battle.

 

The price was her freedom, traded willingly

 

Once she makes these wishes -POOF- Asmodean gets killed. It is intuitively obvious...

 

Personally, I dont think Moiraine got any "wishes".

 

The Finns act under the "bargain" made with humans some time ago. They arent like genies who "have" to grant anything.

 

Seeing as Moiraine and Lanfear stumbled through and burned down their door, the major source of "trade", I dont think they would be that excited to honor the bargain.

 

However, I will admit, they do it for the "savour", it may be they are greedy bastards and are willing to give the three wishes just so they can eat up some memories.

 

Anyway, to the point. I agree with Tenesmus. If she did get 3 wishes, there is no way in hell she would ask for lanfear's knowledge and power. She doesnt really care about herself. She cares only about the Dragon Reborn. She would wish for anything to help Rand win the Last Battle. Not for Lanfear's anything, it is stupid, and Moiraine is anything but.

 

If she wanted "knowledge" or "power" she wouldnt ask for Lanfears. She would as for the power to help the DR win the last battle/ the knowledge for the DR to win the last battle.

[FarShainMael]

I think Moiraine's three wishes were:

 

1. I want Lanfear's strength in the OP

 

2. I want Lanfear's knowledge of the OP

 

3. I want to live.

 

The Price was she couldn't leave.

 

 

I think it was more likley:

 

1. I want to help the Dragon win the last Battle

2. I want to ensure the Dragon lives to fight the last battle

3. I want to ensure that the Dragon is not turned against the Light before the last battle.

 

The price was her freedom, traded willingly

What happens if she gets rescued? Do the 'finns take their gifts back?

[soccerscott]

I think Moiraine's three wishes were:

 

1. I want Lanfear's strength in the OP

 

2. I want Lanfear's knowledge of the OP

 

3. I want to live.

 

The Price was she couldn't leave.

 

 

I think it was more likley:

 

1. I want to help the Dragon win the last Battle

2. I want to ensure the Dragon lives to fight the last battle

3. I want to ensure that the Dragon is not turned against the Light before the last battle.

 

The price was her freedom, traded willingly

What happens if she gets rescued? Do the 'finns take their gifts back?

I don't think so... I mean, that wasn't part of the bargain. It's a possibility, but we don't know if they put stipulations. Mat asked to leave...ok see ya, oh yea have some of this rope on the way out. Leaving was never part of the deal (as far as we know) but neither was NOT leaving...

 

Is this oxymoron to anyone else? My post is almost like a "i know that you know that I know that you know."

[Tenesmus]

Doesn't Moiraine think that Cadsuane is Black Ajah? Thought she may have had those thoughts in New Spring... What will Moiraine do when she learns that Cads is/was Rand's advisor? Didn't she specifically say that Rand should trust no woman who wore the shawl on the day she died? hmmm... me thinks the Moiraine/Cadsuane reunion could be interesting...

[Jillain Sanche]

I agree with the last bit.

 

For sure we will RAFO. But meanwhile, my guesses are: 1) Moiraine waves her metal Great Serpent ring around and sings to ward off snake and foxes attacks; and 2) Lanfear did something whereby the snakes or the foxes killed her, skinned and maybe ate her.

 

Further, if she was stilled of which I am not convinced, I predict she will certainly accept healing. Maybe by an Asha'Man so she gets back her highest levels of power.

[soccerscott]

I haven't read new spring yet, but now with that interesting tidbit of info...I'm very much looking forward to that encounter :)

[FarShainMael]

Doesn't Moiraine think that Cadsuane is Black Ajah? Thought she may have had those thoughts in New Spring... What will Moiraine do when she learns that Cads is/was Rand's advisor? Didn't she specifically say that Rand should trust no woman who wore the shawl on the day she died? hmmm... me thinks the Moiraine/Cadsuane reunion could be interesting...

 

What Moiraine actually said was this (tFoH53):

 

'Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin.'

[Kestrel]

After all this time in Finnland, I am thinking Moraine is either a prisoner in a box or has formed some sort of alliance with the Finns to keep them from killing her.

 

Where do the Finns come from anyway? Maybe new Finns are harvested from the people who fall through the doorways. Since the doorway was destroyed when Moraine fell through it, the Finns would certainly want to hang onto her and make her one of them.

 

What Moiraine actually said was this (tFoH53):

 

'Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin.'

And it's that quote - a classic RJ misdirection - that kept me believing Verin was not Black Ajah, even though Verin was using Compulsion against the sisters in the Aiel camp. RJ drew a circle encompassing sisters on both sides; Alvairin was BA, so I believed Verin was not.

[Shard]

Doesn't Moiraine think that Cadsuane is Black Ajah? Thought she may have had those thoughts in New Spring... What will Moiraine do when she learns that Cads is/was Rand's advisor? Didn't she specifically say that Rand should trust no woman who wore the shawl on the day she died? hmmm... me thinks the Moiraine/Cadsuane reunion could be interesting...

 

What Moiraine actually said was this (tFoH53):

 

'Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin.'

 

How amusing is it that the two Aes Sedai she refers to ARE BA?

[restausn]

FIrst, I have to express how excited I am that there is finally going to be an attempt to rescue Moiraine from Finnland.. I should have realized when she disappeared through the redstone doorway so LOOOONNNNGGGG ago, that she might not have a chance until near the end. I cried openly when I saw that incredible book trailer, i was so moved by the prospect of Moiraine's return.

I originally thought that she would be the only person who could soften Rand's stone, then steel then cuendillar hardness and stifle the growing darkness about him... Rand (and LTT) did that himself (thierselves?)..

Now I think that Moiraine is the only one that will be able to deal with Cadsuane and Egwene (hasn't she come far?, Blood and Ashes!, I love her character!)... Cadsuane and Moiraine's first meeting should be epic...I wonder how Moiraine will be received by Suian and the rest of the Aes Sedai?, and by the new Amerlyn? That should be very interesting as well, don't you think?

I can't wait for ToM!!! a little more than a week now....

Regards to all!

 

 

 

[restausn]

No offense, to anyone, but I don't think Moiraine would have asked for Lanfear's power or knowledge.. remember Moiraine used balefire for the 1st time in TDR against the Darkhounds when escaping from Illian, she was a very talented channeler, and powerful. I'm sure she knew much more born with the spark like Elayne and Aviendha and Egwene.. I wonder if Moiraine will be surprised to find out about Verrin?

I can't even begin to guess what she asked them on the other side of the doorway..

such cool stuff, huh?

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

My speculation is that when Lanfear and Moiraine went tumbling through the ter'angreal, channeling, they both burned themselves out. Knowing full well she's got a free ride from the DO, Lanfear offed herself. Moiraine's stuck for the long haul. Given how much she knows about the future (letters to Thom and Rand both), I suspect her wish involved some sort of omni-awareness of paths leading from a certain action (the meeting at the bridge?)

 

I have a feeling that by the time they get to her, Moiraine like Thom, will be very old and ready to settle down for the remainder of her years. Of course, not before she imparts some key bit of information.

 

I'm also guessing that the DOs origin stems from Finnland and this will be the key information that Moiraine shares.

[Sharaman]

My speculation is that when Lanfear and Moiraine went tumbling through the ter'angreal, channeling, they both burned themselves out. Knowing full well she's got a free ride from the DO, Lanfear offed herself. Moiraine's stuck for the long haul. Given how much she knows about the future (letters to Thom and Rand both), I suspect her wish involved some sort of omni-awareness of paths leading from a certain action (the meeting at the bridge?)

 

You mean the questions she asked inside the Stone of Tear doorway?

She left the letters before she entered the Rhuidean door. The wishes if any, would come after that.

I don't think personally that the Finns would give either of them bargains -- they'd together broken the injunction against bringing fire for one thing.

 

About the burning out, it appears likely. Lanfear was using an angreal when Moiraine snatched it - that is cause enough.

Lan can no longer feel Moiraine; that has three possible explanations. Either she's dead (which we believe is not true), or she's burnt out/ still or the inter-dimensional connection is broken (unlikely because the ToG is still open and warder-AS can feel bonds at great distances)./

 

I have a feeling that by the time they get to her, Moiraine like Thom, will be very old and ready to settle down for the remainder of her years. Of course, not before she imparts some key bit of information.

 

I'm also guessing that the DOs origin stems from Finnland and this will be the key information that Moiraine shares.

 

The GLoD seems to have come from outside the Pattern along with the Creator. So this seems unlikely.

[restausn]

I agree with sharaman RE the DO and the Finns..but I disagree that Moiraine and Lanfear brought fire... Do you think maybe Lanfear or Moiraine tried Balefire as they enterered the doorway? I ust listened to that part in the audiobook again, and there was blinding white that filled the doorway as they went through... balefire maybe? the only reference we have to the Finns is Mat's experience with them.. he can't channel, obviously. Moiraine and Lanfear both channel strongly..

[Sharaman]

I agree with sharaman RE the DO and the Finns..but I disagree that Moiraine and Lanfear brought fire... Do you think maybe Lanfear or Moiraine tried Balefire as they enterered the doorway? I ust listened to that part in the audiobook again, and there was blinding white that filled the doorway as they went through... balefire maybe? the only reference we have to the Finns is Mat's experience with them.. he can't channel, obviously. Moiraine and Lanfear both channel strongly..

The blinding light is normal - Mat experiences it going in through both doors.

But the door exploded with heat when Moiraine -Lanfear fell through it - since Lanfear was setting fire to everything on the docks, it's likely she set fire to it as well. No they didn't try balefire - nothing disappeared, the door just melted and fused with heat.

[restausn]

Mat experienced blinding light, nothing was said about that light being seen outside the doorway.. Seems to me that since the doorway is a ter'angreal that doesn't require channeling to work, (in Mat's case) might the doorway react violently to channelling women going through it and an angreal (Lanfear's bracelet) within spitting distance? Lanfear wouldn't balk at balefire.... just another thought...

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with sharaman RE the DO and the Finns..but I disagree that Moiraine and Lanfear brought fire... Do you think maybe Lanfear or Moiraine tried Balefire as they enterered the doorway? I ust listened to that part in the audiobook again, and there was blinding white that filled the doorway as they went through... balefire maybe? the only reference we have to the Finns is Mat's experience with them.. he can't channel, obviously. Moiraine and Lanfear both channel strongly..

The blinding light is normal - Mat experiences it going in through both doors.

But the door exploded with heat when Moiraine -Lanfear fell through it - since Lanfear was setting fire to everything on the docks, it's likely she set fire to it as well. No they didn't try balefire - nothing disappeared, the door just melted and fused with heat.

 

Sharaman is partly right. It was not balefire. However, it was not burning the doorway either.

 

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

 

RJ: "When Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal, it burned in part because both were channeling, and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws. The odd optical effects witnessed in that other world are not artificially produced artifacts."

 

Theoryland database.

 

So yeah. It wasnt actually balefire, just the act of channeling, or holding saidar.

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

The GLoD seems to have come from outside the Pattern along with the Creator. So this seems unlikely.

 

It seems more than strongly implied, to me at least, that the home of the Finns lies outside the Pattern as well. Here is a place where the laws of nature are radically different, where saidin and saidar the the potential to cause some sort of severe disruption, where its resident creatures have the ability to observe all facets of the pattern and influence pieces of it if Questioners or Wishers give them the power to do so.

 

Sounds an awful lot like the Dark One, the True Power and his connection to the Forsaken to me.

[Sharaman]

 

The GLoD seems to have come from outside the Pattern along with the Creator. So this seems unlikely.

 

It seems more than strongly implied, to me at least, that the home of the Finns lies outside the Pattern as well. Here is a place where the laws of nature are radically different, where saidin and saidar the the potential to cause some sort of severe disruption, where its resident creatures have the ability to observe all facets of the pattern and influence pieces of it if Questioners or Wishers give them the power to do so.

 

Sounds an awful lot like the Dark One, the True Power and his connection to the Forsaken to me.

We've also heard the Finns have no influence on normal WoTland - that's not true for the GLoD.

[Diederichos]

If the Finns can dig through someone's memories, isn't it possible that they know what Moirane's plan is and there is a double-trap(along with his own link with them) waiting for Mat? It's unlikely given that it would make redundant Mat's 'they might even know that I read this letter' concern, but I have some suspicion that there is a strong trap element to this plot.

[FarShainMael]

I'm inclined to agree. Moiraine's letter wasn't a straightforward 'help-I'm-being-held-prisoner-in-a-games-factory' appeal; it was complicated and ambiguous. Perhaps she knew Mat would walk into a trap - but she felt the end result, whatever that might be, made it a necessary risk.

[restausn]

Ok, you've convinced me there wasn't balefire..

Isn't this fun?

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

We've also heard the Finns have no influence on normal WoTland - that's not true for the GLoD.

 

That's because the Finns can't or won't come to normal WoTland. They can't influence it from where they are now except by proxy, through their willing victims... and more importantly: neither can the GLoD. The GLoD has to act through his agents such as the Forsaken, the Black Ajah and darkfriends. Increasing power and freedom from his prison changes that.

[Beren]

Well, the question is whether she is even still IN Finnland.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

We've also heard the Finns have no influence on normal WoTland - that's not true for the GLoD.

 

That's because the Finns can't or won't come to normal WoTland. They can't influence it from where they are now except by proxy, through their willing victims... and more importantly: neither can the GLoD. The GLoD has to act through his agents such as the Forsaken, the Black Ajah and darkfriends. Increasing power and freedom from his prison changes that.

 

The DO is not a Finn nor does he come from the Finns power, its just not happening. Forget it.

 

Only the DO and the Creator are outside the pattern, no-one or nothing else.

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the Power? I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

RJ: No. No to both.2

 

WinespringBrother reporting:

 

WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of 'Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?

Jordan: No.

WinespringBrother: Have the 'Finns existed as long as the Wheel?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Are the 'Finns from human stock?

Jordan: No.

WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?

Jordan: Yes.

 

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

 

All quotes from theoryland database.

 

The Finns are like Ogier. Ogier originated from Paralell worlds aswell.

 

They have nothing in common with the DO.

 

The DO was sealed outside the Pattern at the Moment of Creation by the Creator. Nothing existed before then bar the DO and the Creator. The Finns are a part of the pattern. There is no way in hell the DO is similar to the Finns.