Asmodean

[didymos]

What about the fact that they had met a long time ago?

 

What are you talking about? Who met who and how long a time ago?

[yoniy0]

just as there are plenty of modern female channelers who can compete with the female Forsaken.

Actually, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with more than 5 (i.e. Talaan, Sharina, Nynaeve, Alivia, Someryn).

 

Yeah, the only one who actually took up a top-level job was Be'lal, which worked because Tear just had the High Lords.

What Sammael did is just a small step shy of it (the King of Ilian isn't an absolute ruler), and Rahvin went beyond them both, I think.

 

What about the fact that they had met a long time ago?

What are you talking about? Who met who and how long a time ago?

He asked about when LTT's voice said that he should've killed Taim long ago. I haven't read TFoH in quite some time now, so I don't remember what that was all about, myself.

[Manetheren Lord]

Graendel killed him, it's quite obvious to the most casual reader at the end of TFoH... just like Robert Jordan said. You have to look at it pre LoC, because that's where you get all of these absurd theories like Moiraine or Taim.

 

Four Forsaken were working together and held Caemlyn as their staging ground for meetings. They brought the trollocs and fades into the city and had planned to take down Rand. I believe Rand surprised them with the gateways but nonetheless. These for forsaken were Rahvin, Sammael, Graendel and Moghedian. Rahvin was dead at the time, Moghedian had an a'dam around her neck, and Sammael didn't know he was dead in LoC (Yes pulling something out of LoC but it's fact that he was not the killer). Graendel was the one that killed him, either she was snooping around Caemlyn and he opened the door to her. Or (and I think this is more likely) she opened a gateway behind the door he was going to enter and made the weaves for insta death.

 

Other theories like Taim, Moiraine, Aviendha just don't make any sense. You have to go with what is obvious and there, what makes sense at the time. These abstract theories will just lead you astray and confuse you.

[Oliver]

None of us actually know yet because the last book is not out but if 99% of the foresaken have been someone else at some time then the idea that Taim is Asmodean is a possibility. Also another example of one of the forsaken taking on a form of a ruler Semirhage as Tuon. The forsaken are trying to stop Rand as always or at least capture him. Taim is building an army to his own advantage something Asmodean definitely would do. He has also been cast aside by the dark one. So was Lanfear in a way and now she is Cyndane. Could it not be possible for Asmodean to be dead like RJ said but Taim to be him also like Lanfear is Cyndane.

[jdbond]

Taim is stronger in OP. Asomedean was weakest male forsaken.

 

P.S: DO tells Demandred in LoC that Asmo is going to get served or already is. So Taim cannot be Asmo.

[GYLD]

Could it not be possible for Asmodean to be dead like RJ said but Taim to be him also like Lanfear is Cyndane.

 

No, it is not possible. Lanfear was dead and brought back by the GloD in a new body. As a quote by Robert Jordan already provided in this topic says, Asmodean could not be brought back, most likely implying death by balefire.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Could it not be possible for Asmodean to be dead like RJ said but Taim to be him also like Lanfear is Cyndane.

 

No, it is not possible. Lanfear was dead and brought back by the GloD in a new body. As a quote by Robert Jordan already provided in this topic says, Asmodean could not be brought back, most likely implying death by balefire.

 

Or even death in TAR since death there is absolute as far as i'm aware?

[Luckers]

Taim is stronger in OP. Asomedean was weakest male forsaken.

 

This is actually an assumption everyone makes based on his weak personality. We don't actually know where Asmodean stood prior to Lanfear's shielding.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Taim is stronger in OP. Asomedean was weakest male forsaken.

 

This is actually an assumption everyone makes based on his weak personality. We don't actually know where Asmodean stood prior to Lanfear's shielding.

 

Yeah, I actually am leaning towards Balthamael being the weakest. Asmodean put up a pretty damn good fight. Of course, Rand wasnt trained, and probably not reached his full potential, but still. Read up on Balthamael and you will find he didnt do much really. From what we know of the Forsaken and from their actions, Asmodean looks to be stronger.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

.. Here's a very very crazy thought. It was said that the GloD couldn't bring him back.. I wonder, What if the PATTERN could? what if for some crazy ass reason the pattern bound him to the wheel potentially preventing the dark one to bring him back?( not that he would anyway considering he figured him a traitor). What if good old Asmo is lurking in TAR?

[didymos]

just as there are plenty of modern female channelers who can compete with the female Forsaken.

Actually, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with more than 5 (i.e. Talaan, Sharina, Nynaeve, Alivia, Someryn).

 

Given that there were (pre-Semirhage balefiring) only 5 female Forsaken, I'm gonna say that counts as "plenty". Given the sheer number of other channelers we now know of, it's also unlikely those are the only five "Forsaken class" around.

 

Yeah, the only one who actually took up a top-level job was Be'lal, which worked because Tear just had the High Lords.

What Sammael did is just a small step shy of it (the King of Ilian isn't an absolute ruler), and Rahvin went beyond them both, I think.

 

Neither held the official top-level job, which is all I was referring to. I suppose you could say Rahvin briefly became "King Of Andor", but it was never officially declared, and that was not something he was actually responsible for, even if he had considered it. Similar reasoning applies to Semi briefly masquerading as Tuon due to the latter's running off with Mat. Point being, the standard Forsaken MO (for those who went after political power anyway) was to find a high-but-not-top-level position and then unofficially assume control. Be'lal, the exception, didn't really have a choice: he either became a High Lord of Tear or not. The way their government worked, it would have been a real pain for him to take over otherwise.

 

He asked about when LTT's voice said that he should've killed Taim long ago. I haven't read TFoH in quite some time now, so I don't remember what that was all about, myself.

 

Oh, that. That was in LoC when Rand first meets Taim, and was just the start of LTT ranting about killing any male channelers in his general vicinity. And yeah, Demandred is named in that inaugural rant, but since RJ said he's not Taim, that's obviously just a red herring.

[didymos]

.. Here's a very very crazy thought. It was said that the GloD couldn't bring him back.. I wonder, What if the PATTERN could? what if for some crazy ass reason the pattern bound him to the wheel potentially preventing the dark one to bring him back?( not that he would anyway considering he figured him a traitor). What if good old Asmo is lurking in TAR?

 

Well, RJ said that even the balefired can be reborn like any normal person, so he doesn't need to be in T'A'R. Of course, he'd just be reborn as some guy, and not even necessarily become a DF or even be a channeler. Also, given that the Heroes are pretty much good guys, it's highly doubtful Asmodean would have somehow earned a spot in their ranks. Still, is it possible? I suppose, but short of an answer from Team Jordan, we have no way to know.

[didymos]

Could it not be possible for Asmodean to be dead like RJ said but Taim to be him also like Lanfear is Cyndane.

 

No, it is not possible. Lanfear was dead and brought back by the GloD in a new body. As a quote by Robert Jordan already provided in this topic says, Asmodean could not be brought back, most likely implying death by balefire.

 

Or even death in TAR since death there is absolute as far as i'm aware?

 

Only if you're already dead and also in T'A'R. Recall that Rahvin died in T'A'R in the flesh, and the DO only complained about the balefire part. If you die in T'A'R while Dreaming, you just die in the real world, and go wherever it is normal folk do (unless you're a Hero, I suppose).

[yoniy0]

Given that there were (pre-Semirhage balefiring) only 5 female Forsaken, I'm gonna say that counts as "plenty".

Go right ahead, then

 

Given the sheer number of other channelers we now know of, it's also unlikely those are the only five "Forsaken class" around.

This is where I disagree. The five I've mentioned are the strongest of the strong among all major channeling groups (AS, WO, WF, damane). There aren't multitudes of 'as-strong' women laying around. In fact, I daresay there aren't any women already channeling that are as strong (unless I forgot someone?).

 

Be'lal, the exception, didn't really have a choice: he either became a High Lord of Tear or not. The way their government worked, it would have been a real pain for him to take over otherwise.

What I said is that Be'lal was no exception. Tear has High Lords. Plural. He was just one of them, officially, though he did pull the strings from behind the curtain. In that sense, Rahvin surpassed him even before Morgase disappeared. He was 'prince-consort' for all intents and purposes.

[Luckers]

This is where I disagree. The five I've mentioned are the strongest of the strong among all major channeling groups (AS, WO, WF, damane). There aren't multitudes of 'as-strong' women laying around. In fact, I daresay there aren't any women already channeling that are as strong (unless I forgot someone?).

 

With Alivia, not so. The only time anyone makes a statement about a damanes relative strength is Tuon, who described one of her damane as 'the strongest of her damane'. No statements about the frequency of strength amongst the damane--there could be no others of that strength amongst the damane, or there could be a dozen or more.

 

With the Wise Ones--Tamela and Viendre are both stronger than Elayne, and could be Forsaken-level. And yes, whilst Someryn has never met a Wise One as strong as she--there are over 6,000 Wise Ones who can channel. I doubt Someryn has even come close to meeting them all.

[yoniy0]

With Alivia, not so. The only time anyone makes a statement about a damanes relative strength is Tuon, who described one of her damane as 'the strongest of her damane'. No statements about the frequency of strength amongst the damane--there could be no others of that strength amongst the damane, or there could be a dozen or more.

You just couldn't let me have this one, could you? Yeah, I tried to sneak that one by

 

With the Wise Ones--Tamela and Viendre are both stronger than Elayne, and could be Forsaken-level. And yes, whilst Someryn has never met a Wise One as strong as she--there are over 6,000 Wise Ones who can channel. I doubt Someryn has even come close to meeting them all.

Hmm, perhaps Tamela and Viendre are close. I'm not sure, but I tend to think of Moghedien as one of the weak female Forsaken, and in that case, they don't make the cut. Either way, it's close enough to let pass.

But I disagree that Someryn wouldn't have made it her business to track down any WO who's reportedly very strong, just to feed her insecurity.

[Luckers]

You just couldn't let me have this one, could you?

 

I think that would be against the law. :)

[FarShainMael]

You just couldn't let me have this one, could you?

 

I think that would be against the law. :)

Shouldn't that be 'against the lore'...

[Sharaman]

This is where I disagree. The five I've mentioned are the strongest of the strong among all major channeling groups (AS, WO, WF, damane). There aren't multitudes of 'as-strong' women laying around. In fact, I daresay there aren't any women already channeling that are as strong (unless I forgot someone?).

 

With Alivia, not so. The only time anyone makes a statement about a damanes relative strength is Tuon, who described one of her damane as 'the strongest of her damane'. No statements about the frequency of strength amongst the damane--there could be no others of that strength amongst the damane, or there could be a dozen or more.

 

With the Wise Ones--Tamela and Viendre are both stronger than Elayne, and could be Forsaken-level. And yes, whilst Someryn has never met a Wise One as strong as she--there are over 6,000 Wise Ones who can channel. I doubt Someryn has even come close to meeting them all.

The Seanchan actually have the largest and most organised bunch of sparkers, due to their continental population and the systematic testing of the whole population with a'dam. It may be cruel but no sparker dies in Seanchan, unlike in Western Randland.

I'm sure somewhere in the Seanchan bureaucracy, a dossier exists on every recorded damane, with gradings for strength, fondness for sweets, special ability with Earth, etc. Again due to sheer size of the sample, it's somewhat more likely that there will be other damane who are very strong.

Someryn was "not negligible" according to Graendal, and Someryn seems to think (ACoS) "Maisia" is stronger, if Sevanna reads the situation right.

So she's somewhere near forsaken-level.

[Luckers]

You just couldn't let me have this one, could you?

 

I think that would be against the law. :)

Shouldn't that be 'against the lore'...

 

That was beautiful.

[FarShainMael]

*bows*

[Jblaylock]

... RJ said he could not because of both WHEN and WHERE Asmodean was killed...

 

RJ is an Aes Sedai, and the truth he tells is not always the truth you think it is. Perhaps the "when and where" of Asmodean's death has yet to actualy happen, which is why the DO cannot bring him back, because it has not happened yet. The "when" of his death: TBD (to be determined). The "where" of his death: TBD.

 

I have yet to read any quote from RJ that was straight forward, as in: Asmo is dead; he died in (whichever book), and is not comming back; Asmo was killed.

 

Instead, his answers are highly deceptive and leave great room for interpretation.

 

I would not be shocked if Taim was Asmo.

[didymos]

I have yet to read any quote from RJ that was straight forward, as in: Asmo is dead; he died in (whichever book), and is not comming back; Asmo was killed.

 

Uh, well, there's the books saying he died: once, in the book in which it happened, and again in the next one when the DO says so. As far as RJ speaking as RJ, you haven't been looking very hard. Dude's dead. Srsly.

 

Also, it ain't where and when that matters:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

[Jblaylock]

I have yet to read any quote from RJ that was straight forward, as in: Asmo is dead; he died in (whichever book), and is not comming back; Asmo was killed.

 

Uh, well, there's the books saying he died: once, in the book in which it happened, and again in the next one when the DO says so. As far as RJ speaking as RJ, you haven't been looking very hard. Dude's dead. Srsly.

 

Also, it ain't where and when that matters:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

Nowhere in there does Brandon even admit that Asmo is dead. He agrees, after being fed the question, that he was surprised when he found out who killed Asmo. But, if you were trying to answer the question "who killed Asmo" and you found out that "nobody" killed Asmo, would you not be surprised? And, again, if "how he died and when he died" have yet to happen, then it would make sense that the DO could not bring him back. This is the Wheel of Time, remember, so Time works in funny ways. Future is a point that can be reffered to just like past.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have yet to read any quote from RJ that was straight forward, as in: Asmo is dead; he died in (whichever book), and is not comming back; Asmo was killed.

 

Uh, well, there's the books saying he died: once, in the book in which it happened, and again in the next one when the DO says so. As far as RJ speaking as RJ, you haven't been looking very hard. Dude's dead. Srsly.

 

Also, it ain't where and when that matters:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

Nowhere in there does Brandon even admit that Asmo is dead. He agrees, after being fed the question, that he was surprised when he found out who killed Asmo. But, if you were trying to answer the question "who killed Asmo" and you found out that "nobody" killed Asmo, would you not be surprised? And, again, if "how he died and when he died" have yet to happen, then it would make sense that the DO could not bring him back. This is the Wheel of Time, remember, so Time works in funny ways. Future is a point that can be reffered to just like past.

 

For god's sake. This is ridiculous.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting

 

 

Asmodean is, and I quote, roadkill. And he still claims there are many indirect clues from The Fires of Heaven on about who killed him. He also claims that very, very few of the fan letters he gets are correct about it.

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997

 

 

Sam from Sacramento: When it says at the end of The Fires of Heaven, "death took him," in Asmodean's last scene, do you mean that he died? There has been much speculation as to whether or not "death" refers to Moridin, whose name in the Old Tongue means "death." Many think that Moridin's second mindtrap is for Asmodean, but "death" was not capitalized in the scene where Asmodean made his last appearance. Can you tell me whether or not he was taken by Moridin?

RJ: Asmodean went for the long jump in that scene.