Rand's hands

[yoniy0]

In ACoS, Chapter 10: Unseen Eyes, Egwene dreamt:

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

Now, this didn't sound weird in and of itself. Not to me, at least. Egwene sees Rand as she knows him. Also, a point could be made that this isn't Rand at all - but a reference to his faking his own death or something. BUT (no, I don't mean The BUT), Austin Moore asks on Twitter:

@BrandonSandrson credit goes to Megan from facebook WoT page but is there any significance to Egwenes dream of Logain stepping over someone

@BrandonSandrson who looks exactly like Rand but the person had both hands and not just one? Mistake or is there a significance?

To which Brandon replied:

@Southpaw2014 It is rare that something like that is included without it being significant.

 

So. What do you think this means?

[Sagacious Lu]

I think it means RAFO :-p I'm sorry if that sounds glib, but I mean it. It could mean that Egwene's dream told her something important without picking up that he would lose a hand. He had both when she had the dream. Then again maybe it means that he'll get his hand back. Personally I'll be disappointed if he does, and even more so if he survives AMoL; RJ was always squeamish about killing off important good guys and I think it would be a cop out at this point for Rand to come through it all hale, hearty and healthy.

[didymos]

I'm gonna have to track it down, but during a conversation (or possibly in Nyn's thoughts) about what can and can't be Healed, there's a line about how something (I think it was stilling) can't be Healed anymore than a hand can be grown back. It stuck out like a sore thumb as I've been re-reading for ToM, and I meant to make a note about it, but it slipped my mind until just now. I think it's in Lord Of Chaos, though.

 

ETA:

It was The Shadow Rising (page 84, US Hardback). Nynaeve explains about stilling to Aviendha:

"It is generally accepted to be irreversible. What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

 

Given what Nyn does later, the fact that she specifically chose a missing hand as an example of "stuff you can't Heal" struck me as...odd.

[MatsLuck]

I like to think this is a foreshadow of Logain taking credit for winning TG and/or becoming the most prominent male channeler of the next age since Rand will be dead (and alive) as far as most of the world knows. I've always thought that Rand post TG (whatever that means heh) would want to return to anonymity.

[Barid Bel Medar]

In ACoS, Chapter 10: Unseen Eyes, Egwene dreamt:

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

Now, this didn't sound weird in and of itself. Not to me, at least. Egwene sees Rand as she knows him. Also, a point could be made that this isn't Rand at all - but a reference to his faking his own death or something. BUT (no, I don't mean The BUT), Austin Moore asks on Twitter:

@BrandonSandrson credit goes to Megan from facebook WoT page but is there any significance to Egwenes dream of Logain stepping over someone

@BrandonSandrson who looks exactly like Rand but the person had both hands and not just one? Mistake or is there a significance?

To which Brandon replied:

@Southpaw2014 It is rare that something like that is included without it being significant.

 

So. What do you think this means?

 

 

As you may already know yoniy0 I have a theory regarding this

 

The man in Egwene's dream is Taim.

 

Reasons:

- First we have the BA plan for Taim. They wanted ot set him up as the DR and mess with everything. Whether or not that actually happend is moot, the point is that this was the plan.

 

- Taim was a false Dragon like Logain. Hence being a "puppet" like image of Rand. The "mask" breaks away.

 

- Look at how Taim acts. He has his little embroided Dragons on his sleeves, he is the M'Hael in charge of the BT and most probably a DF. He acts like he is still the DR.

 

- Logain and Taim look to be having a showdown. They both have their own "factions" in the BT, and it seems to tie in with Logain's "glory". So Logain stepping over Taim's dead body after defeating him, a man trying to impersonate the DR.

 

- Notice the BLACK STONE. ONe could take it as Shayol Ghul, but would it not be BLACK ROCK? The Black tower is made of Black Stone. Taim and Logain are fighting over the Black Tower.

 

-Taim has two hands.

[mlovelock]

The healing of the hand is a good theory but I also wonder if this could be a reference to one of the 3 rands that seems to be alluded to in the books. We all know LTT but there are also hints that there is another one, and Moridin seems to fit into this somehow as he is looking like Rand. So could the person Logain steps over be Moridin?

[FarShainMael]

The healing of the hand is a good theory but I also wonder if this could be a reference to one of the 3 rands that seems to be alluded to in the books. We all know LTT but there are also hints that there is another one, and Moridin seems to fit into this somehow as he is looking like Rand. So could the person Logain steps over be Moridin?

 

ll, have you read the last chapter of TGS yet? If not I'll say no more.

[yoniy0]

Or rather, would you go read it already so we could talk freely?

I do agree that the third man in Rand's head is Moridin. That much should be taken for granted post KoD-"News for the Dragon", I think.

 

As you may already know yoniy0 I have a theory regarding this

[...]

-Taim has two hands.

He does at that, but so do a lot of Randlanders. If the "hands" are "significant", can't we infer that the dream somehow relates to Rand's own hands? Of course, it could be seen as just another sign that the dead body isn't really Rand's, but I think the whole "paper puppet" thingy takes care of that angle on its own, wouldn't you say?

[mlovelock]

The healing of the hand is a good theory but I also wonder if this could be a reference to one of the 3 rands that seems to be alluded to in the books. We all know LTT but there are also hints that there is another one, and Moridin seems to fit into this somehow as he is looking like Rand. So could the person Logain steps over be Moridin?

 

ll, have you read the last chapter of TGS yet? If not I'll say no more.

 

Yes I have read it so feel free to talk :)

[Duskfire]

The fact that Rands face breaks apart like a puppet and he has both hands suggests to me that its not Rand at all. I.E its Moridin after the body swap :P

[FarShainMael]

The healing of the hand is a good theory but I also wonder if this could be a reference to one of the 3 rands that seems to be alluded to in the books. We all know LTT but there are also hints that there is another one, and Moridin seems to fit into this somehow as he is looking like Rand. So could the person Logain steps over be Moridin?

 

ll, have you read the last chapter of TGS yet? If not I'll say no more.

 

Yes I have read it so feel free to talk :)

I see that this particular discussion is proceeding on another thread, so I'll join you over there!

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/42287-blade-of-light-three-become-one-full-spoilers/page__st__480

[yoniy0]

Some discussion has been made over there about Rand and LTT, but the question of what Brandon meant still stands, IMHO. So, quit stealing my people, will you?

[FarShainMael]

Yes, I was talking about the Rand/LTT question, not about Rand's hands.. then I noticed that LL had joined in on that other thread. The topic was bifurcating a bit! Essentially, there are not three Rands, and never have been.

 

So, about Rand's hands.. I think I'm in Barid's camp. It's Taim.

 

As for what BS meant.. his comment to Southpaw2014 was AS-like in its ambiguity.. but I think he was confirming that Eg's dream of 'Rand' with two hands was indeed significant.

 

While we're on the subject of Rand's hands.. what to you think of the prophecy mentioned in TGS48 (top of page 742):

 

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.'

[yoniy0]

I think [brandon] was confirming that Eg's dream of 'Rand' with two hands was indeed significant.

I disagree. He was asked whether the "hands" were significant, and he said such things are rarely not. This means the mention of his hands, in plural, is in itself significant. If it were just another sign that the "puppet" wasn't Rand, then it's just one of several signs, redundant.

 

While we're on the subject of Rand's hands.. what to you think of the prophecy mentioned in TGS48 (top of page 742):

 

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.'

I think that either the three are Adley, the sky above him and the earth beneath him, or Terez was right. The two parts of the sentence don't seem to connect, unless Rand gets his left hand back.

[FarShainMael]

I think [brandon] was confirming that Eg's dream of 'Rand' with two hands was indeed significant.

I disagree. He was asked whether the "hands" were significant, and he said such things are rarely not. This means the mention of his hands, in plural, is in itself significant. If it were just another sign that the "puppet" wasn't Rand, then it's just one of several signs, redundant.

Right, I see what you mean. I'd certainly go with that.

 

While we're on the subject of Rand's hands.. what to you think of the prophecy mentioned in TGS48 (top of page 742):

 

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.'

I think that either the three are Adley, the sky above him and the earth beneath him.

Now there's an intriguing (and original) picture!

[Val Mickey]

Cyndane will pour SuperGlue on Callandor. Rand's hands will stick to the hilt. The three become one.

 

On a more serious note, isn't there an Irish myth (or was it Scottish?) myth of a King who lost his hand, and thus his kingship, and later had a silver hand refitted onto the stump, thus regaining his kingdom? Nida, nieda, nilla, something like that. And more recently Luke Skywalker lost a hand, and then went on to hold a blade of light in his hand. Okay, that wasn't so serious. But there's a 50% chance of Rand having his hand healed.

 

I've had problems with Rand losing his hand, in the sense that stuff that happens to Rand is supposed to reflect on the land - his madness vs. miasma, his rage vs. the summer, his indifference vs. winter's heart, his non-healing wound vs. Shayol Ghul, etc (his day with Elayne vs. Dragonmount erupting.. oops). So if he's lost a hand, what is that supposed to mean? That Shara/Land of Madmen/A Seanchan peninsula has been submerged? Hit by an asteroid? Or have they lost a part of the pattern?

[GB]

isnt there some part of the prophecy having to do with his hands ? the hand that shelters and the hand that destroys?

i dont know exactly where rand was thinking about this.

[nophone]

isnt there some part of the prophecy having to do with his hands ? the hand that shelters and the hand that destroys?

i dont know exactly where rand was thinking about this.

 

maybe it's the hand that is destroyed :P.

 

interesting question here: do you think that rand can continue to channel using hand gestures and finger intracasies that he used prior to losing his hand because he has "phantom hand syndrome"

[GB]

when he channels doesnt he say he think of his hand as still being here? in his mind? maybe he does the gesture "in a way" ?

[nophone]

when he channels doesnt he say he think of his hand as still being here? in his mind? maybe he does the gesture "in a way" ?

 

he refers to it when he's not channeling in the same way, i'm certain of that. they say that using gestures is a form of a block with the power. the wiseones say they train to use the power without gesturing, and nyneve battles mhogidian in such a way that RJ describes them as appearing to be having a staring match. never the less, there are references that say quite directly that for many sisters, the use of the gesture is so ingrained that many of them cannot channel certain weaves without them.

[TreeJoe]

Someone is gonna heal Rand's hand.

 

I haven't seen reference at all to Lanfear's (Cyndane's) healing ability, but she supposedly saved his life in tGH by somewhat healing his wound from Ishamael's staff, and I'm wondering if Moridin is going to order her to restore him or some such to stop his own pain.

 

I would think it would be Nynaeve....but seriously, every other injury throughout the series she would NOT drop from studying. But Rand's hand? Pfft.

 

Maybe that's because she realized there were much more significant things to worry over, though that never stopped her before. Maybe she'll impress me and care now that Rand is sane.

 

Otherwise, I'm thinking Moghedian or Cyndane are going to have an unexpected skill in healing and be able to re-grow his hand. Moghedien may be it, since she is so skilled with compulsion and that's supposed to be akin.

 

Joe

[yoniy0]

isnt there some part of the prophecy having to do with his hands ? the hand that shelters and the hand that destroys?

i dont know exactly where rand was thinking about this.

Why, yes. It's the Dark prophecy from tGH:

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

As far as I know, Rand isn't aware of it, though.

 

when he channels doesnt he say he think of his hand as still being here? in his mind? maybe he does the gesture "in a way" ?

he refers to it when he's not channeling in the same way, i'm certain of that.

I don't remember it that way. You are certainly right that some channelers come to depend on hand gestures, but Rand didn't think of his lost hand in that context. Weren't you referring to the following excerpt?

Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, stood, hands behind his back as he looked out the open manor window. He still thought of them that way, his "hands," though he now had only one. His left arm ended in a stump. He could feel the smooth, saidar-healed skin with the fingers of his good hand. Yet he felt as if his other hand should be there to touch.

 

Otherwise, I'm thinking Moghedian or Cyndane are going to have an unexpected skill in healing and be able to re-grow his hand.

It was stated earlier in the books that Semirhage alone remained who could remove Sammael's scar. If neither can do such a basic thing, how are they to Heal a severed hand?

[FarShainMael]

In TGS 47, after the failed meeting with the Borderlanders, Rand looks at himself, and thinks: 'Two hands.One to destroy, one to save. Which had he lost?'

[Durinax]

maybe egwene will use her metal abilities for somethign useful and fashion a hand or some such and rand can change his name to skywalker hahaha

[nophone]

In TGS 47, after the failed meeting with the Borderlanders, Rand looks at himself, and thinks: 'Two hands.One to destroy, one to save. Which had he lost?'

 

Well he has been kind of a balefire weilding d.bag for a while.