Rand and Lews Therin...

[Mr Ares]

I've made my position excessively clear in my previous posts.

Indeed, and done nothing to address anything I've written, nor cleared up the contradictions in your position.

[mikedh]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

You and I are dissimilar insomuch that neither our souls nor bodies nor personalities coincide... Rand is LTT reborn, which means the soul is the same, yet the body and personality are different.

 

Rand's connection to LTT is INFINITELY larger than your connection to me.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ahem. Then Moridin is not Ishamael because it is a reincarnation of the soul, not the person.

 

Improper terminology leads to improper conclusions.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated not reincarnated. Same person. Same personality. Just a different body.

 

Transmigration is the unchanged soul moving into a new body. If you were an adult you remain the same adult only with a different body.

Resurrection is the rejuvenation of both soul and body to a state of health and vigor. Same person. Only change is being returned to life in the same body.

Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul into a new body. If you were an adult you start over as a baby. In the course of maturing you acquire a new and different personality shaped by a different set of circumstances, becoming a different person in the process.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated. An unnatural process.

 

Birgitte is Birgitte artificially resurrected. A different unnatural process.

 

Rand is Lews Therin reincarnated. A totally natural process.

[OptimusPrime]

Ahem. Then Moridin is not Ishamael because it is a reincarnation of the soul, not the person.

 

Improper terminology leads to improper conclusions.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated not reincarnated. Same person. Same personality. Just a different body.

 

Transmigration is the unchanged soul moving into a new body. If you were an adult you remain the same adult only with a different body.

Resurrection is the rejuvenation of both soul and body to a state of health and vigor. Same person. Only change is being returned to life in the same body.

Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul into a new body. If you were an adult you start over as a baby. In the course of maturing you acquire a new and different personality shaped by a different set of circumstances, becoming a different person in the process.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated. An unnatural process.

 

Birgitte is Birgitte artificially resurrected. A different unnatural process.

 

Rand is Lews Therin reincarnated. A totally natural process.

 

Exactly, but to me Ishsmael and Rand resemble the same thing achieved by different methods. Rand and Lews Therin are the same character jusr as Ishamael and Moridin are, but the circumstances of their cases are different. How else can we explain that all of Lews Therins memories feel like Rands own, AND factor in that that revolution made by Rand himself seems to have fixed him?

[Duskfire]

Yeah I sort of agree with Drekka here; as far as we know of reincarnation, Rand and Lews Therin being the same person suggests to me that its a transmigration. Sure they have different personalities, but there is a link between Rand and his previous persona that simply does not happen anywhere else except with the Forsaken (and Birgitte.) Or if anything, the Lews Therin/Rand situation is yet another fourth example, one that applies solely to the Dragon Reborn. Its more then just a reincarnation though. Maybe its the naturally occuring transmigration, while the Forsaken is the unnatural, thus the differences.

[Mik]

Yeah I sort of agree with Drekka here; as far as we know of reincarnation, Rand and Lews Therin being the same person suggests to me that its a transmigration. Sure they have different personalities, but there is a link between Rand and his previous persona that simply does not happen anywhere else except with the Forsaken (and Birgitte.) Or if anything, the Lews Therin/Rand situation is yet another fourth example, one that applies solely to the Dragon Reborn. Its more then just a reincarnation though. Maybe its the naturally occuring transmigration, while the Forsaken is the unnatural, thus the differences.

Oh dear. Over these past years, I don't think I'd ever say this, but I agree completely with what Mr Ares is saying. (If that's not a sign Armagedon is close, I don't know what is)

And while I feel slightly akward for reading my own thoughts written down by Mr Ares (of allll people), I feel comforted by the fact that he'll probably laugh at what I'm going to write next! (else this is really Armagedon. And if it is, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for all the fun reads!)

So this one's for Mr Ares!

 

Lews Therin and Rand are not the same person, nor were they ever seperate men.

How?

 

Well, why is it that the Dragon is always there to confront the Dark One? I think it's because the Dragon's comming (the spinning of his Thread into the fabric of Reality -the Pattern-) brings the Dark One. When the Dragon Soul is spun into the Pattern, so is the Shadowed Soul of the Dark One, because the Dragon Soul binds the Darks One's to it's own. It's the "weak spot" in the Pattern. It's where the Thread of the Shadow -bound to the Dragon's Thread- is positioned (for lack of a better word).

Yes, it's a 'weak spot', but it's also the strongest immaginable spot, because the Creator tied it to all other living threads, giving the Dragon's Thread -literally- the strenght of the whole Pattern to support it. I think that there were people in the AoL who realised this, because Lews Therin's third name was "Telamon" wich I think literally translates to "World's Heart" (as Ba'alzamon literally translates to "Heart of the Dark" and Tel means World from Tel'aran'rhiod). Lews Therin his mind is tied to all of life. That's why he's their champion.

 

Now what happened is that Lews Therin put a patch over that place (where the Bore is), to keep the Dark One out of Creation. By doing so, he also accidentely trapped his own Thread in the woven Pattern as he locked out the "Dark One's Thread" that's in the same spot as his own. When Lews Therin killed himself, part of his Thread never did die, because it was trapped -by himself and his (near-)hundred channeling buddies-. In essence, I think he Mind-trapped himself. I think this is why we actually -see- Mind-traps used in the story. The difference being that Shai'tan traps others, where Lews Therin in his Pride 'spun a trap that trapped himself'.

 

And Lews Therin needed himself-Reborn, to escape his own trap!

Does that make that reborn person the exact same man? Hell no!

Does that make them seperate men? Hell no!

 

As we can see all throughout the books, there's not just memories 'seeping through', but that Lews Therin interacts with his direct surroundings, when Rand is open to it. Lews Therin interacts with Rand. They discus things. We also saw that Lews Therin took control of Saidin. And as RJ had Moiraine say as far back as TEotW, that "only a living mind can wield the one power"

 

That's why I think Lews Therin is a self-trapped living mind. And that Mind found it's way back to the same Soul and the Body of the current 'owner' of that Soul (Rand), because -for instance- Rand was born on Dragonmount. Because Rand proclaimed to the world he was the Dragon (Reborn). Because Rand drew Callandor that was linked to Lews Therin (by the Aes Sedai who had the Foretelling during the Breaking) and that pulsed as if something inside it was being uncovered. Callandor flared as if with a light (a Mind?) of it's own when Rand was close.

 

So, Lews Therin -the Heart and Mind of the World- ends up Mind-trapped inside the Dragon Reborn. A blinded Dragon.

Only when Rand finally, truly accepts Lews as being a part of their shared Soul, is Lews freed of the self-spun trap. It's when Rand truly sees for the first time with his Minds Eye. And he witnesses all living threads tied to him. He 'sees' all life. It's how Lews Therin knew there was noone around when he created Dragonmount as his tomb.

 

 

Wow. Rant over.

*hands Mr Ares his bludgeon*

Have fun, Mr Ares. I was quite surprised by your posts. +1!

[OptimusPrime]

Also, in an interview RJ said that a Nyms soul was "borrowed" by the pool of souls waiting to be reborn. So there are still other examples of rebirth and transmigration and whatnot that we havent looked into much. As you said Duskfire, I think every example of someone returning after death, whether by reincarnation or rebirth or transmigration or resurrection, whatever the conditions of it, they represent the same process of rebirth being manipulated at different stages in my oppinion.

 

The Forsaken return before they were wiped clean. The Heros are never wiped clean, but a canvas might be put over the memories when access to them isnt deemed necessary by the Wheel. Of those souls that are not Heroes, memories are wiped clean before rebirth, and a Nyms soul is taken from that cache of souls that have been wiped. The Dragon Reborn, as Senior Hero, is granted access to his previous incarnations memories because they will inevitably remind him why he fights-we know that a Hero becomes bound to the Horn through acts of sacrifice-bound Heroes remember the lives where they made those sacrifices. The wall between current and past lives can clearly be breached and I see no reason whatsoever to think the Wheel cant do the same. I also see no reason for the Wheel to hold back on its tricks in this situation; it must have predicted that Rand would be reborn in a time when the Chosen are the only ones capable of teaching him. If there are visions and Foretellings and Dreams and everything, the Wheel must be able to see those images itself and thats how it prepares in advance. So this time, I think the Wheel simply removed the barrier between past lives for Rand so that a) he could stand a chance against the immortals, by technically becoming one himself, and b) to remind him why he has to fight. Lews Therin sacrificed his own sanity for the salvation of the Pattern, and that sacrifice cost him not only his loved ones, but also marked him as a destroyer in years to come, a destroyer that he clearly wasnt when he was sane. Those memories are bound to be painful, of course, and well worthy of splitting your own mind to avoid. Unless of course, you are Rand, and you are wrong about practically everything because you grew up in a very mundane life and now are expected to understand everything without any true guidance.

 

How much reason we have to think the memories are there deliberately to help Rand is, of course, questionable. Not once in the entire series have those memories been a hindrance though. The way Rand deals with them has. He tries to avoid them AND use them at the same time, and he begins to be confused as to why they begin to matter to him personally. Again, that isnt insanity. Anyone changes according to the experiences they are exposed to. The fact that Rand changes as if the memories are his own is not a madness. The fact that he tries so hard to supress these memories makes him develop the madness, that madness being an identity crisis. He is Lews Therin reborn, which means he is the same base person that Lews Therin, THE SAME MAN COME AGAIN, but shaped by different experiences... experiences that are so different to what he knows that when he IS exposed to his older memories from a past life, he thinks he is branded with the failure of those old memories.

 

But then Rand thinks to himself: "If Ive reborn, then I have a second chance. Maybe shes been reborn as well. Ah, its all right, all that was a previous life, I should forget about the pain of those memories and move on, because chances are Ilyena has been reborn somewhere but doesnt remember. I remember love changes things many times, cool, yeah love is what I fight for, wait did Lews Therin tell me that or did I tell myself, oh no it was me coz I AM Lews Therin. I mean I was. Ah, that feels better."

[Mr Ares]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

You and I are dissimilar insomuch that neither our souls nor bodies nor personalities coincide... Rand is LTT reborn, which means the soul is the same, yet the body and personality are different.

 

Rand's connection to LTT is INFINITELY larger than your connection to me.

Hardly an infinitely large difference. As to whether our souls coinicide, there are many philosophical views on such things. But your post doesn't really answer the main question posed by the thread: are Rand and (the historical) Lews Therin the same man?

 

 

Ahem. Then Moridin is not Ishamael because it is a reincarnation of the soul, not the person.

 

Improper terminology leads to improper conclusions.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated not reincarnated. Same person. Same personality. Just a different body.

 

Transmigration is the unchanged soul moving into a new body. If you were an adult you remain the same adult only with a different body.

Resurrection is the rejuvenation of both soul and body to a state of health and vigor. Same person. Only change is being returned to life in the same body.

Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul into a new body. If you were an adult you start over as a baby. In the course of maturing you acquire a new and different personality shaped by a different set of circumstances, becoming a different person in the process.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated. An unnatural process.

 

Birgitte is Birgitte artificially resurrected. A different unnatural process.

 

Rand is Lews Therin reincarnated. A totally natural process.

Good Gods, I find myself in agreement with Bob T Dwarf. This is almost enough to make me want to reconsider my position.

 

 

Ahem. Then Moridin is not Ishamael because it is a reincarnation of the soul, not the person.

 

Improper terminology leads to improper conclusions.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated not reincarnated. Same person. Same personality. Just a different body.

 

Transmigration is the unchanged soul moving into a new body. If you were an adult you remain the same adult only with a different body.

Resurrection is the rejuvenation of both soul and body to a state of health and vigor. Same person. Only change is being returned to life in the same body.

Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul into a new body. If you were an adult you start over as a baby. In the course of maturing you acquire a new and different personality shaped by a different set of circumstances, becoming a different person in the process.

 

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated. An unnatural process.

 

Birgitte is Birgitte artificially resurrected. A different unnatural process.

 

Rand is Lews Therin reincarnated. A totally natural process.

 

Exactly, but to me Ishsmael and Rand resemble the same thing achieved by different methods. Rand and Lews Therin are the same character jusr as Ishamael and Moridin are, but the circumstances of their cases are different. How else can we explain that all of Lews Therins memories feel like Rands own, AND factor in that that revolution made by Rand himself seems to have fixed him?

To me, Rand and Moridin feel like quite different things, achieved by different methods. Ishamael and LTT were both born, lived, and then one of them died. Years later, his soul is reborn. Then the other one dies, but when he comes back it is not after being reborn, as a child, learning to walk, talk, channel, all from scratch, as Rand did. His memories and personality are transplanted into a new body, and the person who held that body before is stripped away completely. When LTT's memories awaken in Rand, Rand is not stripped away completely (not so far, at least, and I suspect a lot of people would be disappointed if ToM essentially replaced the main character of the books with a new one). Moridin has one man's memories in his head, one personality. Rand has memories of being Rand, and of being LTT - two people. He has a voice. Moridin doesn't. In effect, Moridin and Rand are faced with very different circumstances. They are not the same thing at all. And let us not forget that Mat's new memories fit seamlessly into the holes where the old ones were before, despite Mat being a different person to those others who now fill his head - the memories would appear to be accepted as his own, or as good as. So Mat can have other memories, yet be a different person to the former owners of those memories, Moridin has his and only his memories, and Rand has other memories, yet is the same as the former owner of his memories. Does that seem right to you? Because it doesn't to me. Rand should be considered separate, a different person to LTT.

 

Yeah I sort of agree with Drekka here; as far as we know of reincarnation, Rand and Lews Therin being the same person suggests to me that its a transmigration. Sure they have different personalities, but there is a link between Rand and his previous persona that simply does not happen anywhere else except with the Forsaken (and Birgitte.)

But it didn't happen in the case of the Chosen. That is why transmigration is completely the wrong term for what happened to Rand. If Rand was LTT transmigrated, he should not have been born again. The body he is using should have been leaned out, and a new soul shoved in. He should not have had Rand's childhood, any memories of being someone other than LTT. The first couple of decades of that body's life should not have been lived by the person nowe inabiting it for it to count as transmigration. That is not the case at all. The cases of Rand and the Chosen are very dissimilar.

Or if anything, the Lews Therin/Rand situation is yet another fourth example, one that applies solely to the Dragon Reborn.

But we have evidence that it isn't something that is unique to the Dragon Reborn - statements that this is a form of madness, one known in the AoL. An ordinary rebirth, tainted by an unusual madness, but not a unique case.

Its more then just a reincarnation though. Maybe its the naturally occuring transmigration, while the Forsaken is the unnatural, thus the differences.

Rand was just a naturally occuring, perfectly normal reincarnation (of an extraordinary soul, but the reincarnation itself was normal), up until his madness.

 

Oh dear. Over these past years, I don't think I'd ever say this, but I agree completely with what Mr Ares is saying.

I'm sure it won't last.

 

Lews Therin and Rand are not the same person, nor were they ever seperate men.

How?

 

Well, why is it that the Dragon is always there to confront the Dark One? I think it's because the Dragon's comming (the spinning of his Thread into the fabric of Reality -the Pattern-) brings the Dark One.

It didn't last.

[Dream]

To me, Rand and Moridin feel like quite different things, achieved by different methods. Ishamael and LTT were both born, lived, and then one of them died. Years later, his soul is reborn. Then the other one dies, but when he comes back it is not after being reborn, as a child, learning to walk, talk, channel, all from scratch, as Rand did. His memories and personality are transplanted into a new body, and the person who held that body before is stripped away completely. When LTT's memories awaken in Rand, Rand is not stripped away completely (not so far, at least, and I suspect a lot of people would be disappointed if ToM essentially replaced the main character of the books with a new one).

To me, Rand and Moridin feel like slightly different things, achieved by completely different methods. The DO’s method is immediate and exact. The Wheel’s method is gradual and more of a maturation process. Similar to Rand’s Ta’verenism. He was not born a Ta’veren, but matured into one. Similarly, he wasn’t born the Dragon, but is maturing to it.

 

And Rand is not being replaced. He is, was and always will be Rand; just as he is, was and always will be LTT. They are not two people.

 

Moridin has one man's memories in his head, one personality. Rand has memories of being Rand, and of being LTT - two people. He has a voice. Moridin doesn't. In effect, Moridin and Rand are faced with very different circumstances. They are not the same thing at all. And let us not forget that Mat's new memories fit seamlessly into the holes where the old ones were before, despite Mat being a different person to those others who now fill his head - the memories would appear to be accepted as his own, or as good as. So Mat can have other memories, yet be a different person to the former owners of those memories, Moridin has his and only his memories, and Rand has other memories, yet is the same as the former owner of his memories. Does that seem right to you? Because it doesn't to me. Rand should be considered separate, a different person to LTT.

Or you could say: Moridin has Ishamael’s memories plus his own, just like Rand has LTT’s memories plus his own. In both cases, they are the same person. Moridin is Ishamael just as Rand is LTT. The difference between the two is Rand has memories of growing up while not knowing who he is/was.

 

Concerning Mat, yes he is evidence it is possible to have to have other memories from a different person. Just as Birgitte and all the transmigrated Forsaken are evidence that it is possible to have memories of a past life and be the same person.

 

Rand was just a naturally occuring, perfectly normal reincarnation (of an extraordinary soul, but the reincarnation itself was normal), up until his madness.

We don’t know for sure whether madness sometimes leads to memory leakage or whether memory leakage sometimes leads to madness. Rand was an ordinary farmer until suddenly everything happens to him at pretty much the same time. Heck even Mat has some memory leakage, and this is before he's even hear of the 'Finns.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nope.

 

Moridin is Ishamael and nobody but Ishamael. We have no evidence that he incorporates anyone but Elan Morin Tedronai.

 

The Dragon Reborn is both Rand and LTT. At this point an integrated personality distinct from both Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon, incorporating all of both of them ( and maybe all of the other Dragon personas, as well ).

[Dream]

I didn't say Moridin incorporated anyone else. Fact is, Ishamael died. Now he's alive again as Moridin. Similarly, LTT died and now he's alive again as Rand. Rand is the Dragon, though, so he's extra special.

[WhiskyJack]

I didn't say Moridin incorporated anyone else. Fact is, Ishamael died. Now he's alive again as Moridin. Similarly, LTT died and now he's alive again as Rand. Rand is the Dragon, though, so he's extra special.

 

 

It's safe to say that Rand remembers more than LTT's memory. So Rand is DR, man who is and was and will be. Moridin is just Ishamael. LTT is just one life of DR.

[didymos]

I didn't say Moridin incorporated anyone else. Fact is, Ishamael died. Now he's alive again as Moridin. Similarly, LTT died and now he's alive again as Rand. Rand is the Dragon, though, so he's extra special.

 

No, not similarly:

 

Ishamael dies. Gets a new, fully adult body due to DO interfering with the normal workings of the Wheel. He still has his memories, skills, sense of identity as the man he's been since the Age Of Legends, etc.

 

LTT dies. The Dragon soul is reincarnated. An infant is found, without any of LTT's memories or skills, grows up in the Two Rivers and has no clue he's anyone other than Rand Al'Thor, son of Tam and Kari Al'Thor. Even once he learns he is LTT reborn, he still spends most of the series with only the occasional fragment of that previous life surfacing. Often, when they do surface, he finds them alien and disturbing.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's differentiate them this way...

 

The Dragon has the childhood memories of ( at least ) Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon.

 

Moridin only has the childhood memories of Elan Morin Tedronai.

[WhiskyJack]

I didn't say Moridin incorporated anyone else. Fact is, Ishamael died. Now he's alive again as Moridin. Similarly, LTT died and now he's alive again as Rand. Rand is the Dragon, though, so he's extra special.

 

No, not similarly:

 

Ishamael dies. Gets a new, fully adult body due to DO interfering with the normal workings of the Wheel. He still has his memories, skills, sense of identity as the man he's been since the Age Of Legends, etc.

 

LTT dies. The Dragon soul is reincarnated. An infant is found, without any of LTT's memories or skills, grows up in the Two Rivers and has no clue he's anyone other than Rand Al'Thor, son of Tam and Kari Al'Thor. Even once he learns he is LTT reborn, he still spends most of the series with only the occasional fragment of that previous life surfacing. Often, when they do surface, he finds them alien and disturbing.

 

 

It's like revising third or fourth post in this thread. How is that for WOT saga.

[Dream]

Let's differentiate them this way...

 

The Dragon has the childhood memories of ( at least ) Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon.

 

Moridin only has the childhood memories of Elan Morin Tedronai.

Sounds good to me.

[NetSlider]

I didn't say Moridin incorporated anyone else. Fact is, Ishamael died. Now he's alive again as Moridin. Similarly, LTT died and now he's alive again as Rand. Rand is the Dragon, though, so he's extra special.

 

 

It's safe to say that Rand remembers more than LTT's memory. So Rand is DR, man who is and was and will be. Moridin is just Ishamael. LTT is just one life of DR.

 

Figured to join the conversation here (though on limited basis as I'm enjoying simply observing).

 

Just wanted to point out that we really don't know that about Moridin. Most likely it is true - but than again he said that he fought Rand many, many time before. On the other hand, Ishy is a lier so who knows.

 

What I would like to know is how much LTT remembered from his past lives or did he remember at all. Maybe that's the difference between this cycle and the rest - Rand remembers everything and thus is a TRUE CHAMPION OF THE CREATOR. Which brings me to another point - is Rand the only TRUE DRAGON UP UNTIL NOW and all his past lives were there simply to prepare him? We know the Dragon is only a title that LTT shied from but Rand seems to embrace it more and more. In tEotW all caps says that only the chosen one must do what needs to be done if he chooses to do it. So does that mean that all previous "pre-Rand" dragons were chosen ones but did not choose to do what had to be done?

 

Which bring me back to Moridin. He said that DO needs to win only once but I think that it is completely in reverse - the light only needs to win once. In tGH we saw possibilities of when DO wins which considering the mirror worlds seems to have happened (in a very theoretical sense of a word). So, as long as the light wins ones the DO can never be free because that means Wheel arranged everything correctly. RJ said I believe that if Dragon goes to DO it's a draw but what is the definition of a draw in this case? A mirror world? Anyways, there's more to it, but just wanted to touch on the implications that all.

[FarShainMael]

Nope.

 

Moridin is Ishamael and nobody but Ishamael. We have no evidence that he incorporates anyone but Elan Morin Tedronai.

 

The Dragon Reborn is both Rand and LTT. At this point an integrated personality distinct from both Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon, incorporating all of both of them ( and maybe all of the other Dragon personas, as well ).

 

Rex quondam, Rexque Futurus

 

http://everything2.com/title/Rex+quondam%252C+Rexque+Futurus

[Bob T Dwarf]

NetSlider -

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope.

 

So Rand remembers it all.

 

FarShainMael -

 

Yes, the idea of a messiah is attractive enough that some form of it likely exists in every culture. After all, a messiah absolves me from the necessity of fixing the mess I've made of the world, somebody else is "destined" to do it. I can go on being a thoughtless, uncaring fool. Why wouldn't every one in every culture yearn for that?

 

We already know that Perrin is Thor ( among other archetypes ), and Mat is some amalgam of Odin and Loki and that Rand is Tyr. But, is Rand also Baldr?

[capuga]

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope.

 

So Rand remembers it all.

 

The impression I got from that scene was that he was aware of all those past lives at that moment. However, I think going forward the only one he will have memories from is LTT

[NetSlider]

NetSlider -

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope.

 

So Rand remembers it all.

 

FarShainMael -

 

Yes, the idea of a messiah is attractive enough that some form of it likely exists in every culture. After all, a messiah absolves me from the necessity of fixing the mess I've made of the world, somebody else is "destined" to do it. I can go on being a thoughtless, uncaring fool. Why wouldn't every one in every culture yearn for that?

 

We already know that Perrin is Thor ( among other archetypes ), and Mat is some amalgam of Odin and Loki and that Rand is Tyr. But, is Rand also Baldr?

 

I know he does. That's not what I was talking about at all.

[didymos]

Yes, the idea of a messiah is attractive enough that some form of it likely exists in every culture. After all, a messiah absolves me from the necessity of fixing the mess I've made of the world, somebody else is "destined" to do it. I can go on being a thoughtless, uncaring fool. Why wouldn't every one in every culture yearn for that?

 

I hardly think you can make such a sweeping generalisation and somehow capture what messianic figures mean in often vastly disparate cultures and religions. It may be that some actually think of a messiah as some sort of cosmic-yet-personal get-out-of-jail-free card, but it's not really borne out in the majority of actual religious texts/traditions. A more accurate, but still inadequate, generalisation is that a messiah is a person who can fix what is beyond the control and the ability of any one person, or even every person. I think you're getting too caught up in some specifically Christian attitudes about personal salvation and the powerlessness of individuals to be anything other than corrupt and fallen without Christ (especially the more extreme Calvinist-style predestination/election beliefs). Even then, few would actually conceptualize it in the terms you've chosen, and fewer still see it as some sort of license to continue f@#%ing-up with abandon. That's usually taken as a sign that you're still "in sin" or have returned to it. Certainly, you ain't gonna get approbation or even necessarily the supposedly obligatory forgiveness for that sort of thing (cf. Ted Haggard).

[OptimusPrime]

NetSlider -

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope.

 

So Rand remembers it all.

 

Exactly. I like to think of it this way; when Rand proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn he accepted what he was, despite the parts that he doesnt understand. But in VoG he figured out exactly what he is. He is one man that comes time and again to save humanity. But he is never born with that knowledge, because it is essentially a quality given to him by the Wheel in a time when it is necessary for him to remember. The memories do not come like wham bam thank you ma'am for two reasons I think. First off, they are like any old memory that must be thought of in a normal chain of thought kind of way. If something reminds you of something else, thats where the new memories kick in. Lanfear talking to Rand the way she talked to Lews Therin brought the previous personality out for a short time. The second reason the memories are gradual is that Rands will affects the Pattern and he doesnt want the memories. The Wheel put them there, but he resists it, and ends up with the voice for all his efforts, its like a stalemate.

 

Wheel: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR OLD MEMORIIIIIIEEEEEES!

Rand: NOOOO I dont want them but hey they are useful, NO they are horrible, wait I remembered something cool-NAAAAW STOP THEM IM GOING MAD!!

Lews Therin: Hi how ya doin

Rand: Ah man those old memories make me such a jackass and I want to do good but everyone hates me whats the point

Lews Therin: We've been reborn so she might have

Rand: Cool, so what happened with the Breaking isnt important anymore so Ive no point resisting because I understand, the AoL memories are painful because that was me, when I was spun out last time to do all this OH MY CREATOR LOOK I have more memories and suddenly got rid of the voice because I stopped resisting with my Pattern-affecting will. Cool. I am so badass, Im older than everyone and Im only twenty two, twenty four tops.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, the idea of a messiah is attractive enough that some form of it likely exists in every culture. After all, a messiah absolves me from the necessity of fixing the mess I've made of the world, somebody else is "destined" to do it. I can go on being a thoughtless, uncaring fool. Why wouldn't every one in every culture yearn for that?

 

I hardly think you can make such a sweeping generalisation and somehow capture what messianic figures mean in often vastly disparate cultures and religions. It may be that some actually think of a messiah as some sort of cosmic-yet-personal get-out-of-jail-free card, but it's not really borne out in the majority of actual religious texts/traditions. .......

 

I'm not talking about any particular dogma, creed, or text. I'm talking about how Joe Average thinks about it, not how some wonk who has made a 20 year study of obscure references comes to understand things.

 

The messiah mythos exists because it's very easy to sell. It's easy to sell because it absolves the believer from ultimate responsibility for his acts.

 

Given a choice between cleaning his/her room and having a maid do it, even the terminally dain bramaged will choose the maid every time.

[OptimusPrime]

Yes, the idea of a messiah is attractive enough that some form of it likely exists in every culture. After all, a messiah absolves me from the necessity of fixing the mess I've made of the world, somebody else is "destined" to do it. I can go on being a thoughtless, uncaring fool. Why wouldn't every one in every culture yearn for that?

 

I hardly think you can make such a sweeping generalisation and somehow capture what messianic figures mean in often vastly disparate cultures and religions. It may be that some actually think of a messiah as some sort of cosmic-yet-personal get-out-of-jail-free card, but it's not really borne out in the majority of actual religious texts/traditions. .......

 

I'm not talking about any particular dogma, creed, or text. I'm talking about how Joe Average thinks about it, not how some wonk who has made a 20 year study of obscure references comes to understand things.

 

The messiah mythos exists because it's very easy to sell. It's easy to sell because it absolves the believer from ultimate responsibility for his acts.

 

Given a choice between cleaning his/her room and having a maid do it, even the terminally dain bramaged will choose the maid every time.

 

I cant believe you are making comparisons between interpretations of what a messiah is and how a child behaves about tidying their room