Did the Wheel intend Artur Hawkwing to fail?

[Agitel]

This is something I'm curious about. Was Artur Hawkwing spun out to unite the world or to shatter it once more? One thousand years after the breaking civilization was on its feet and Randland stood united under an agreement. Then came the Trolloc wars and Aridhol's betrayal of Manetheren (the result of Mordeth's taint and his delving into dark powers). The Trolloc Wars were supposedly strongly brought about by Ishy. Artur Hawkwing is then spun out one thousand years later, an incredibly powerful ta'veren with the goal of uniting the world. Randland was nearly united, armies were sent to conquer Seanchan and Shara, and then he dies because he refused Healing from an Aes Sedai, supposedly because his mind was poisioned by Ishy.

 

Basically, it looks like the Wheel was 'trying' to unite the world, but interference from the Shadow kept interfering, and civilization kept rising and falling, becoming weaker and weaker with each collapse. Jordan has said that this Third Age is not special and 'no different', but was that in reference to whether or not this is going to be the final defeat of the Dark One or if events were different? After all, small things can change from Age to Age, and I wonder if Ishy being not fully bound was a bit of a fluke from past turnings (in which no servants of the Dark may have been left free and immortal).

 

So, did the Wheel intend for a united world to be ready to confront the Shadow? Or did it intend for a broken one to? Is it controlling Ishy and the trollocs? Or does Ishy's ties to the DO help loosen the Wheel's hold on him?

 

I don't know. Any thoughts or relevant quotes?

[Kelven]

Well, if you believe Prophecy, Hawkwing HAD to have been defeated to give the Seanchan reason to come back to Randland to attempt to re-conqour it, thus giving our heroes the chance to fullfill the "bind nine moons" and "south and west must be as one" prophecies (among others I may be forgetting). If the world united under Hawkwing, and stayed united until the Last Battle, alot of these prophecies would be moot. Would the Aiel made it to Dragonmount to give birth to Rand if the Hawkwing Empire still controlled Randland? Would Lamen(sp?) even have cut down the tree of life to make his throne in the first place if Cairhien was part of the Hawkwing Empire?

 

Since the prophecies existed BEFORE Hawkwing, you'd have to assume that everything up to this point has been more or less "just as planned" (barring any minor alterations by the Shadow that the Pattern would then attempt to correct via Ta'veren and whatnot).

 

Not too sure if any of that makes sense, I'm kinda lacking sleep atm so my thoughts are somewhat scattered.

[Corlock]

Well the Dark One is not of the Pattern, and Ishy is a servant of the Dark One. Therefore, his actions can genearlly be seen as being actions against the Pattern, as they are actions in the interest of an entity that is not of the Pattern. So, the Pattern did not intend for Artur Hawkwing to fail, but outside influences resulted in that. This did not destroy the Pattern however, and one must also note that there are some nations, that while separate do provide a united front against the Shadow, namely the Borderlands. So even without a fully united world to face the Shadow, the Pattern managed to at least have some of the world united, which was enough to allow for the birth of the Dragon. Then again, without the separate nations, I'm not sure Laman would have been a king in a position to cut down the sapling of the Tree of Life. This would have resulted in no Aiel War, which would mean no Maiden wed to no man would have given birth on the slopes of Dragonmount. So, the weaving of an age is very complex, and perhaps the Pattern did in fact allow for Hawkwing's failure. I really don't know.

[Sid]

I agree that the Wheel seems to be trying to get things together to face the time when the DO will break free again. It could be that Ishy's influence caused setbacks that the correcting mechanism needed to account for. I believe that his influence in the past is partially responsible for the Wheel's 'three ta'veren at once' solution. Perhaps in some turnings a Dragon Reborn is enough to counter the shadow's influence, but with the interference there's just too darn much to take care of for one person (the last few years of this age certainly qualify) and Mat and Perrin were called on to rope in the Seanchan/wolves/Two Rivers/Rescue of Moiraine/Leading the actual fighting forces of the Light, etc. I think the Wheel gives people 'just enough to get by', and it's up to them to live up to their potential.

 

I guess Ishy's ties to the DO loosens the Wheel's hold on him, but not completely (everything has threads in the pattern). But I also think the Wheel is aware of his anomaly and weaves accordingly to make it possible for its existence to continue.

[Kaznen]

Who says Hawkwing's empire would have endured if he hadn't died from poison? He would have died anyway, he was close to 80 when he died. How his empire failed was everyone wanted a piece of the power when he wasn't there anymore. He did have kids and grand kids living in Randland but they were the first to be taken out.

 

And what if his plans did come to fruition. Then his seige on TV would have suceeded and the AS would have been wiped out. Now, love or hate them the AS were very important to Randland. Yes there are (many) things they could (should) have done differently but they are needed in the days ahead. And they played a role in bringing Rand and TG about.

 

And think how awful the War of a Hundred Years would have been without AS.

[OptimusPrime]

This is something I'm curious about. Was Artur Hawkwing spun out to unite the world or to shatter it once more? One thousand years after the breaking civilization was on its feet and Randland stood united under an agreement. Then came the Trolloc wars and Aridhol's betrayal of Manetheren (the result of Mordeth's taint and his delving into dark powers). The Trolloc Wars were supposedly strongly brought about by Ishy. Artur Hawkwing is then spun out one thousand years later, an incredibly powerful ta'veren with the goal of uniting the world. Randland was nearly united, armies were sent to conquer Seanchan and Shara, and then he dies because he refused Healing from an Aes Sedai, supposedly because his mind was poisioned by Ishy.

 

Basically, it looks like the Wheel was 'trying' to unite the world, but interference from the Shadow kept interfering, and civilization kept rising and falling, becoming weaker and weaker with each collapse. Jordan has said that this Third Age is not special and 'no different', but was that in reference to whether or not this is going to be the final defeat of the Dark One or if events were different? After all, small things can change from Age to Age, and I wonder if Ishy being not fully bound was a bit of a fluke from past turnings (in which no servants of the Dark may have been left free and immortal).

 

So, did the Wheel intend for a united world to be ready to confront the Shadow? Or did it intend for a broken one to? Is it controlling Ishy and the trollocs? Or does Ishy's ties to the DO help loosen the Wheel's hold on him?

 

I don't know. Any thoughts or relevant quotes?

 

I like to think this was the case to some degree, Ishamaels humanity being corrupted by the True Power to such a degree that the Wheel could no longer direct or predict him to the same degree much in the same way as Fain. I also wonder if Ishamaels humanity was partially regenerated by his return in someone elses body, which might have made him more vulnerable to the Wheels will again.

[Duskfire]

I like to think this was the case to some degree, Ishamaels humanity being corrupted by the True Power to such a degree that the Wheel could no longer direct or predict him to the same degree much in the same way as Fain. I also wonder if Ishamaels humanity was partially regenerated by his return in someone elses body, which might have made him more vulnerable to the Wheels will again.

 

I completely disagree. It was prophecied that Rand would recieve his marks; the Pattern is doing a good job of predicting that if Ishamael is outside the Pattern.

 

People die all the time; hawkwing dying and being allowed to die isnt all that over the top. He had done his job. Ishamael also manipulated him sending off an army to the Seanchan, but the Seanchan have been and will be extremely helpful to Rand and the others in more ways then one. Definetly seems to me that everything that has lead from hawkwing and his death was meant to be. And its not just that either; Ishamael orchestrated the Trolloc Wars which lead to Shadar Logoth, another thing that has been extremely important (Mats dagger which lead to his memories, and Rand clensing saidin.) All evidence points to Ishamael being as biog a part of the Pattern as everyone else.

 

Ishamael is a cool character, but I cant help but feel people make him out to be alot more awesome then he actually is.

[Neeros]

I like to think this was the case to some degree, Ishamaels humanity being corrupted by the True Power to such a degree that the Wheel could no longer direct or predict him to the same degree much in the same way as Fain. I also wonder if Ishamaels humanity was partially regenerated by his return in someone elses body, which might have made him more vulnerable to the Wheels will again.

 

I completely disagree. It was prophecied that Rand would recieve his marks; the Pattern is doing a good job of predicting that if Ishamael is outside the Pattern.

 

People die all the time; hawkwing dying and being allowed to die isnt all that over the top. He had done his job. Ishamael also manipulated him sending off an army to the Seanchan, but the Seanchan have been and will be extremely helpful to Rand and the others in more ways then one. Definetly seems to me that everything that has lead from hawkwing and his death was meant to be. And its not just that either; Ishamael orchestrated the Trolloc Wars which lead to Shadar Logoth, another thing that has been extremely important (Mats dagger which lead to his memories, and Rand clensing saidin.) All evidence points to Ishamael being as biog a part of the Pattern as everyone else.

 

Ishamael is a cool character, but I cant help but feel people make him out to be alot more awesome then he actually is.

 

"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills."

 

/endthread

[Atropos]

I think that the purpose of Hawkwing was to send his son to Seanchan to unite that continent. That was his only purpose in the pattern, and in that he succeeded.

[yoniy0]

The whole thing is very difficult to understand (it is to me, at least. Some of you guys may be more talented than I am with such things).

 

How do you reconcile prophecy with free will? Clearly, each principle, in its pure form, negates the other. Therefore I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. Randlanders have SOME freedom to lead their lives as they choose, but when their actions touch an important aspect of the Age Lace, the Wheel dictates their choices. It's not like Compulsion, where one's helpless to resist. It's like what happened to Mat during the battle of Cairhien. They get into circumstances in which their choice is already made. Mat wouldn't have been Mat if he didn't rush to those soldier's aid.

 

Ishamael must also be constrained in that way. How else could we explain how he seems to change his mind every two books as to whether Rand should be killed or not? After all, if he wanted to, he could've killed Rand the night before the superkids left the TR, in his dreams. Or above Falme, for that matter. Why not consume Rand in flame if you decide to kill him? Stabbing, really? What are you, three?

[Bonzo4288]

We have heard/read before that if the Shadow gets too powerful that the Pattern spins out a person(s) to bring it back toward the light (ex. Yurian Stonebow, Rogash Eagle-eye, Artur Hawkwing etc.). So, Hawkwing tries to unite the world and sends children across the sea. Yet, Artur Hawkwing is not The Dragon Reborn so, before he is completely done, Ishamel gets to him and the Shadow starts to bring the Pattern back to the middle again.

[Duskfire]

The whole thing is very difficult to understand (it is to me, at least. Some of you guys may be more talented than I am with such things).

 

How do you reconcile prophecy with free will? Clearly, each principle, in its pure form, negates the other. Therefore I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. Randlanders have SOME freedom to lead their lives as they choose, but when their actions touch an important aspect of the Age Lace, the Wheel dictates their choices. It's not like Compulsion, where one's helpless to resist. It's like what happened to Mat during the battle of Cairhien. They get into circumstances in which their choice is already made. Mat wouldn't have been Mat if he didn't rush to those soldier's aid.

 

Ishamael must also be constrained in that way. How else could we explain how he seems to change his mind every two books as to whether Rand should be killed or not? After all, if he wanted to, he could've killed Rand the night before the superkids left the TR, in his dreams. Or above Falme, for that matter. Why not consume Rand in flame if you decide to kill him? Stabbing, really? What are you, three?

 

Yeah Ive always pondered this. Especially the whole Ishamael thing - what the heck? Apart from his fights with Rand, when has he ever even thought of using a sword? It is sort of weird :P

 

I am not sure if people do have that much free will, or rather, the Pattern just weaves in a way so its only natural for that person to accept. Rand may not have been born ta`veren, but even he was staggered by the small and large events that had to happen in order for him to be born on Dragonmount. That sort of implies to me that the Pattern was already forcing people to follow a certain path, such as Laman and so forth. It would never seem that way to them; it more like guides them along a path they may have taken.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ok, so to the original post. The DO is outside of the pattern, any orders he gives Ishamael are effectively outside the Pattern, and thus Ishamael is acting outside the pattern so to speak. If it was possible for the Pattern to control life to such an extent, it would have struck Lanfear down before she could open the Bore and destroy darkfriends. THe fact that the DO is outside of the pattern means that all of the Pattern's "plan's" so to speak do not include the DO's meddling. The Pattern cant anticipate the DO's plans, and it isnt a sentient thing, so it cannot directly affect things. But when the DO acts, it spins out Taveren to correct itself. So in that respect, the action of DF's are not in the pattern's control.

 

TO the Prophecy thing, I do not think that the Prophecy made it happen. It is more like they were seeing into the future, and it was going to happen anyway, they just predicted it. Hard to explain, but i dont think it was a concious act by anyone. It was just looking into the future and seeing what had already happened. So it wasnt a "I had a prophecy, so this is how its going to happen." It was more like a "I have seen a glimpse of what has happened in the future." it is a slight difference, and really doesnt matter when it comes down to the effects, but I wouldnt say "it was bound to happen beacuse it was in prophecy" I would say "the prophet saw a glimpse of what is to come".

 

To yoniy0, I also sometimes get confused with the free will thing. however, this is how I see it. The Pattern isnt like that game "The Sims" where you control your character's every move. Or else, as I said above, the Pattern would just kill Lanfear before she could open the Bore. I see the Pattern as being able to create tools to do a job, but the people have to carry it out. Ie, It spins out Taveren, but it doesnt mean complete control. Theoretically, Rand could kill himself if he wished and end everything. Also, he can compromise the Pattern through Balefire, thus disrupting the Pattern's will.

 

The common person has free will. They can do whatever the wish. Ie- they can become Darkfriends and do all sorts of things. Taveren warp the threads of pattern, true, and people's free will is affected, but that is not total control. People (albiet very few) can resist Taveren with their own will. (See Tuon.) The Pattern isnt a sentient thing, it cant conciously act and control. So for me, the Pattern shapes things, yes, but on a broad scale, like starting the Aiel War etc... But not every single detail of life. Like controlling a farmer's every step.

 

So The Pattern leaves people to do what they want in general, until it needs to correct itself, then it spins out Taveren and suchlike.

[Duskfire]

Ok, so to the original post. The DO is outside of the pattern, any orders he gives Ishamael are effectively outside the Pattern, and thus Ishamael is acting outside the pattern so to speak. If it was possible for the Pattern to control life to such an extent, it would have struck Lanfear down before she could open the Bore and destroy darkfriends. THe fact that the DO is outside of the pattern means that all of the Pattern's "plan's" so to speak do not include the DO's meddling. The Pattern cant anticipate the DO's plans, and it isnt a sentient thing, so it cannot directly affect things. But when the DO acts, it spins out Taveren to correct itself. So in that respect, the action of DF's are not in the pattern's control.

 

I disagree with this. To me at least it seems as if the drilling of the Bore was meant to happen. After all, if they didnt attempt to get into the Bore, how would the Final battle happen in the third age in every turning? The Pattern is neutral; all these people dying is just a matter of course. There is no reason for it to just strike down darkfriends. Not to mention as I posted earlier in this thread, too much happens of Ishamael actions for him to not be part of the pattern as well. It was prophecied that Rand would recieve the mark he got from Ishamael, and thats exactly what happened. It was also prophecied that Rahvin would kill Mat, which is what happened. I would say that the only thing outside the Pattern at all is Shaidar Haran, and thats simply because he is basically an extention of the Dark One. And maybe not even then.