Rand 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'

[yoniy0]

What if he kneels down to get her to drop her defenses and trust him so that he can blast her mind out with a Compulsion?

Then he wouldn't be the Rand I know...

[Tom Sawyer]

You're right. Rand wouldn't need her to drop her defenses first.

 

I'm still just kind of pissed off that he didn't balefire the annoying twit so that Mat can find a decent woman and want something bad to happen to her.

[BrandonXRoss]

It definitely seems likely that the Seanchan Prophecies were tampered with. Consider that at least one forsaken had a high position in Seanchan as tDotNM's Truth Speaker. Also, who knows what Ishamael was able to do to their culture indirectly? IIRC, he was Arthur Hawkwing's counselor and convinced him to send many of his followers to the Western Lands where they become the Seanchan. The Seanchan homeland also quite rapidly fell into social disorder despite their organization. There seems to have been a great deal of attention on them from the Shadow.

 

Also, consider the position of Damane in Seanchan society. Such a negative foretelling as "He will bind the Nine Moons..." would horrify the sul'dam. It's likely that any foretelling that would contradict the imperial society of Seanchan would be rationalized as false, covered up altogether, or twisted to become something flattering. Consider Tuon's reaction to the foretelling she received from her AS Damane during her travel to Randland. Tuon is probably one of the more reasonable imperial minds of Seanchan and she still lashed out in a fury because she didn't hear what she wanted to.

 

Given this, I don't think we can necessarily trust any Seanchan prophecy until it's proven true. It's true that Randland prophecies could still be tampered with by BA and forsaken, but much more difficult due to the three oaths. It's most likely that a prophecy would just be covered up by the BA, rather than twisted around, since such a contradiction could potentially expose the existence of the BA if found out.

 

[navahgar]

I think there is some debate here over Tuon becoming Fortuona and somehow that meaning that the 'nine moons' affectation doesn't apply to her anymore. My understanding is that, as the heir to the throne she was the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and therefore as the throne itself, she is now effectively the Nine Moons.

 

I'd also like to clarify that I think talking about this prophecy metaphorically is the 'mistake' that I was thinking people made. As sophisticated fantasy book readers we all are quick to read meaning into prophecies and that's what we'd been doing with this prophecy. My suggestion is that Robert Jordan knew that, and therefore made the quote literal, thereby tricking us.

 

Here's another thought. Is it possible that Rand was supposed to have 'bound the nine moons to him' in the Falme meeting. Maybe the 'halo of darkness' that resulted from his connection to the True Power caused this prophecy to fail. Tuon basically admits in that scene to not being willing to join a force as dark as Rand seemed. Could this be a success by the Dark Lord? If so, what implications might it have.

[Lisa Campbell]

Wasn't it Ishy who "whispered in Hawkwing's ear" and that was why Hawkwing went to Seanchan and created damane and doctored the prophecy? This could easily have meant Luthair? and not Artur.

[yoniy0]

Is it possible that Rand was supposed to have 'bound the nine moons to him' in the Falme meeting. Maybe the 'halo of darkness' that resulted from his connection to the True Power caused this prophecy to fail. Tuon basically admits in that scene to not being willing to join a force as dark as Rand seemed. Could this be a success by the Dark Lord? If so, what implications might it have.

By your own logic (which I subscribe to as well) Tuon needs to become Fortuona before she's the Nine Moons herself, therefore Rand couldn't have fulfilled the prophecy on that meeting.

[navahgar]

Is it possible that Rand was supposed to have 'bound the nine moons to him' in the Falme meeting. Maybe the 'halo of darkness' that resulted from his connection to the True Power caused this prophecy to fail. Tuon basically admits in that scene to not being willing to join a force as dark as Rand seemed. Could this be a success by the Dark Lord? If so, what implications might it have.

By your own logic (which I subscribe to as well) Tuon needs to become Fortuona before she's the Nine Moons herself, therefore Rand couldn't have fulfilled the prophecy on that meeting.

 

Fair enough. I know that those two thoughts are somewhat contradictory. But I like the idea of one of the prophecies not being true, and there being real consequences to Rand's use of True Power. Acknowledging that what you said is probably true, The Empress was dead at the point of the Falme meeting, so maybe it could be argued that Tuon became the Nine Moons automatically.

[yoniy0]

Acknowledging that what you said is probably true, The Empress was dead at the point of the Falme meeting, so maybe it could be argued that Tuon became the Nine Moons automatically.

Only we know that's not ture. She has to declare herself Empress. Until then, she's just the DotNM, as we see in TGS.

[The Dirty Landry]

I definitely agree with Luckers. The raid on the White Tower will ultimately be a defeat for the Seanchan.

 

This was the result of the raid:

 

-Egwene, a competent Amyrlin, replaces the much more incompetent Elaida. In fact it could be argued that without the raid, Egwene might never have gained the Amyrlin Seat. The AS weren't in any hurry to depose Elaida.

-The AS are now VERY MUCH aware of the threat that the Seanchan pose. They will take measures to ensure that nothing like this happens again, especially with Egwene in charge.

-The Seanchan gain the ability to Travel. This is really not that great of an addition to their side as might be believed. They will really only be able to use Traveling for small raids. They have no angreal and no ability to link, so the size of their gateways will not be enough to let a large number of soldiers through. Also Rand and possibly AS will be able to learn how to set wards so that if anyone travels near an army, palace, or city they will be attacked.

-They lost a few dozen damane who are able to use killing weaves and gained 40 AS who cannot channel to kill unless they are about to be killed. Granted some of those might be black, but its still a loss for the Seanchan.

 

The way I see that the Seanchan will make a treaty with Rand will be because:

 

-The knowledge that sul'dam can channel will become widespread throughout the Seanchan. They have been going on about this for so long, that I sure hope something comes of this knowledge.

-The Seanchan will experience massive raids of Shadowspawn attacking from the waygates into their lands.

[ghoullio]

Removed. Spoilers.

 

Ghoullio, this is the second time I've removed spoilers from your posts. Don't let it happen a third.

[Byzantine279]

ghoullio, isn't "Apples" a chapter in ToM, and thus that first part a spoiler? (not a big one, but still).

[ghoullio]

Removed. Spoilers.

 

Ghoullio, this is the second time I've removed spoilers from your posts. Don't let it happen a third.

 

Whatever dude, I cant keep up with all the different stupid spoiler non spoiler discussions. Screw this, I'm outta here.

[Loophole]

Your right Ghoullio, only a master could handle the subtlety and discipline required to keep spoilers on the spoiler board.

 

As for the kneeling, I always found the fact that rand wouldn't do this as a sign of his growing sense of importance, clearly he is important but still... As much as I hate the girls for saying he is getting a big head. Do you think the original rand would of had a problem kneeling to the Nine Moons. It doesn't have to mean he is giving in to her, but just a sign of respect, then they can move on to other matters.

[Azral]

Rand can be polite when he wants to. Consider back in TGH when he knelt to Suian and called her 'Mother' since she was the Amyrlin.

 

 

Even though I agree that the Seanchan prophecy about Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne is false, I do think Rand may very well curtsy or kneel slightly and adopt some kind of protocol when he next meets Tuon. The Seanchan will take it to mean Rand serves the Empress and that will be the first mistake. Even in their own version no where does it say 'the Dragon Reborn kneels to the Crystal Throne and serves it' - details like these may be lost to the Seanchan who assume anyone who kneels to the CT automatically serve due to manifest destiny, not knowing it is a ter'angrael.

Somehow or other though I see Rand will fulfill 'the binding of the Nine Moons and serve him' and we may see the seeds of revolutionary ideas in the Seanchan empire, especially concerning the a'dam.

 

It's time for the Seanchan to experience their own existential crisis, something which Rand brought to Randland, The Aes Sedai, the Aiel and the Sea Folk (to say nothing of the Amayar).

[ragnhild]

I agree that the Rand we have seen in the last few books would never kneel to the Crystal trowne. He was extremly arrogant and way too proud. But maybe he has changed after what happened on dragonmount.

[Zyntras]

actualy, from a military point of view the seanchan are now able to destroy the white tower:

 

- they learned the ground of the WT in the raid (structer etc)

- they now can have traveling

- they can lounge a full assault with thousands of troops and hundreds damane/suldam

- they can raid on a small scale every night, always on a different level of the tower and kidnap/kill AS

 

The AS can't counter in the same way:

- 3 oaths

- they don't know where the SC keep their captured damane

- they don't have the military resources (no egis army is only large enough for raids, not an assault on the SC mainforces)

[The Dirty Landry]

actualy, from a military point of view the seanchan are now able to destroy the white tower:

 

- they learned the ground of the WT in the raid (structer etc)

- they now can have traveling

- they can lounge a full assault with thousands of troops and hundreds damane/suldam

- they can raid on a small scale every night, always on a different level of the tower and kidnap/kill AS

 

The AS can't counter in the same way:

- 3 oaths

- they don't know where the SC keep their captured damane

- they don't have the military resources (no egis army is only large enough for raids, not an assault on the SC mainforces)

You realize that there are ways of warding against Traveling right? The AS aren't so stupid that they won't figure a way to do that. Yeah they might be able to get away with something like that once or twice. But its not going to work for very long.

 

Besides, whether or not they can destroy the White Tower is going to be a moot point. Eventually you'd probably be right. In order for the books to accomplish whats suppose to happen, either the sul dam channeling will become widespread (which will cause chaos), or they will be too busy fighting Shadowspawn in their territories to worry about conquering Randland.

[Val Mickey]

Despite what Luckers argues, I still think the air raid was a good move. The only other way to get Traveling would be to kidnap Aes Sedai, but for that you'd need agents deep inside enemy territory, with an escape route, with the intelligence regarding where they are, and a fair amount of luck (they have to pick the right AS to kidnap).. it has too many variables. All these are solved by striking at the center. If the WT was united, they would've faced a bloodier fight - they would've had a better haul, too. As it is, they've destroyed morale, reduced their enemies' numbers, sent a message to the rest of the world(who will seek refuge elsewhere) and gained valuable tech.

 

The Seanchan are not afraid of confrontation - thus it doesn't matter if they've woken the sleeping dragon. (A battle with 400 damane on each side!) They have always been expecting an AS army (and of large numbers), and are now expecting an Asha'man army too.

 

But now they have the means to conquer every other nation (where there are no AS to draw wards, or even if there are, not enough to form an effective resistance) - within months, even weeks! - feed forkroot to everyone, collar the fainters, and ready 1000s of damane. They would attack Tar Valon after conquering the rest of the world, and before brute force, even the Shining Walls will kneel.

 

But these are not normal times, and the Empress, MSLF, might wait for TG before putting the other plan in action.

 

Egwene's only advantage is the power of circles. Which has its advantage in increasing power, and resistance to damane. On the other hand, it cuts down on her numbers, and fatigues the people involved. And if the Seanchan manage to make an angreal a'dam, then we can kiss Tar Valon goodbye. (Well, if AS can innovate...)

 

The only way out, that I can see, are the "sul'dam can channel" card combined with an Oath Rod card. There is another scenario, but it's too loony as it combines an omen of a turtle in a Top Hat with a ta'veren deus ex machina.

[shadow walker]

hmmmm seems like maybe everyone is over thinking this haha. i am pretty sure it has already happened. between mat and her being married and him being the "prince of ravens" and having pull with the seanchan army, and the fact that Perrin now has respect and connections with the seanchan army, it wont be to long before all the pieces come together. Rand and company will make an alliance (probably with mats help) that will require him to go to the crystal throne and bow to the emperess, which looks like he will probably not have a problem with giving his new attitude he has after the incident on dragonmount.

 

and if that is not dramatic enough for some people, remember we do not know a lot about the seanchan people and customs. who's to say that they don't have unusual marriage customs like the seafolk. maybe due to a loophole they each get to ask one request of the other one that can't be denied or something like that haha.