The Three Egwene Ruled Out

[Luckers]

Apparently Elci has thoughts upon this matter, but I figured I'd abuse my authority and post my general thoughts.

 

 

 

Ok, colour me confused here. Mehan, Teramina and Jamilila are the three Aes Sedai Egwene identifies as potential candidates for Mesaana-hood, as all three disapeared before the reswearing, were not in Verin's list, but were on Saerin consensus, and thus had not been taken by the Seanchan. Egwene thinks its unlikely they were Mesaana because all three had been in the Tower for years, and she'd doubted Mesaana would be able to fake them so well. Brandon implies she is right in this deduction.

 

2. Question: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

 

2. Answer: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.

 

[tGS Signing Tour; Q&A]

 

So, the bit that I'm confused about is this. Egwene decides that, Evaneillin, who was also not on Verin's list, escaped the Seanchan and disapeared before the re-swearing, was most probably Black--yet never considers her as a potential Mesaana. Inversely, Egwene for some reason never considers that Merhan, Teramina and Jailila were Blacks that Verin missed, and fled for the same reason as Evaneillin.

 

Why? All three are stated to be very weak in the Power, so was that it? Simply that they were too weak to Travel, and weren't on Verin's list, but disapeared anyway? That seems incredibly poor logic on Egwene's part. The vast majority of the Black in the Tower escaped. It's highly unlikely they were all strong enough to Travel--and besides, communication between Black sisters was obviously necessary for them all to escape, so what is to forestall the weak ones simply going with those strong enough to Travel? Or from linking. For that matter what is to have stopped them disapearing in a more normal manner. There were no guards on watch within the Tower, as with the Rebels.

 

Besides, where is the logic in dismissing Evaneillin's absense just because she is strong enough to Travel? (assuming she is. We do not know).

 

So yes, my question is twofold.

 

1. Why did Egwene differentiate between the absense of Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila and the absense of Evaneillin?

 

2. If there was some oddity to explain the differntiation, then Mehan Teramina and Jailila were not Black, and not Mesaana--so where did they go?

 

 

 

Elci, take it.

[PhoenixFlame]

Ah yes, I was also very confused by this. But to be honest I don't think any of them are Mesaana. I think she's still in the Tower.

The reswearing of the oaths would obviously catch out any who were BA, but Mesaana isn't Black. So her swearing on the oath rod saying she was neither a darkfriend or black would be completely true. She's not Aes Sedai (only posing as one) and I don't think she'd consider herself a darkfriend (but something more as she is Forsaken).

I think the epilogue was there to make us think she'd fled, but why would she if she could get round the oaths? Which could be to her advantage as Egwene will think her gone.

So I think there'll still be more Mesaana plotting in the tower.

 

Though looking at Brandon's answer there, I'm not so sure anymore. Hmm....

[yoniy0]

More interesting, to me, is that Elci chose to present his theory here. The only potential reference to Mesaana I can think of in the prologue and/or chapters 1+8 was that Rand has something to tell Egwene, something that she isn't going to like. And I personally highly doubt that he meant to educate her on the Forsaken.

So. What am I missing? C'mon Elci, don't make us wait for it.

[Aquarius]

1. Why did Egwene differentiate between the absense of Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila and the absense of Evaneillin?

 

2. If there was some oddity to explain the differntiation, then Mehan Teramina and Jailila were not Black, and not Mesaana--so where did they go?

It seems clear its the reference to the necessary strength to Travel. It IS weak, but it's her logic nonetheless.

When Brandon says that she's not incorrect, I would assume that she's not completely right either. She's probably right in the sense that the three ARE candidate, but there are probably dozens of BA sisters who fled and who are strong enough to channel.

[yoniy0]

I've said so before. I believe Brandon meant that she wasn't wrong in fearing that Mesaana's found a way to elude her Binder-test.

[TheAngryDruid]

I've said so before. I believe Brandon meant that she wasn't wrong in fearing that Mesaana's found a way to elude her Binder-test.

 

And we have a winner. Though the point about Egwene's logic still stands, it doesn't really matter. Neither of the 4 are Mesaana, and she is still in the Tower.

 

How do you think she'll (Mesaana) react if she sees Rand strolling about?

[NetSlider]

Ah yes, I was also very confused by this. But to be honest I don't think any of them are Mesaana. I think she's still in the Tower.

The reswearing of the oaths would obviously catch out any who were BA, but Mesaana isn't Black. So her swearing on the oath rod saying she was neither a darkfriend or black would be completely true. She's not Aes Sedai (only posing as one) and I don't think she'd consider herself a darkfriend (but something more as she is Forsaken).

I think the epilogue was there to make us think she'd fled, but why would she if she could get round the oaths? Which could be to her advantage as Egwene will think her gone.

So I think there'll still be more Mesaana plotting in the tower.

 

Though looking at Brandon's answer there, I'm not so sure anymore. Hmm....

 

Good point. Remember Lanfear also did not consider herself dark friend or AS (conversation she had with Mat in tDR). It might be just how she alluded the oaths (or the questions) and later she might remove the oaths again. I personally think that she's in the tower but not as AS.

[martianblues]

This debate is all under the assumption that Mesaana is under the guise of an Aes Sedai. Many of the other forsaken have disguised themselves in much more humble roles, to be hiding in plain site with their abilities masked...

[yoniy0]

How do you think she'll (Mesaana) react if she sees Rand strolling about?

She doesn't strike me as bold enough to attack him head-on. But perhaps losing the Tower has made her desperate enough. I wouldn't be surprised if SH paid her another visit after that.

 

I personally think that she's in the tower but not as AS.

Graendal has stated that she has Mesaana watched, and that she's posing as an AS. You can call Graendal many things, but ill-informed isn't one of them.

[TankSpill]

Graendal has stated that she has Mesaana watched, and that she's posing as an AS. You can call Graendal many things, but ill-informed isn't one of them.

 

Good point on that, I had forgotten that. I also think (as has been mentioned in this thread) that the logic Sanderson is referring about Egwene and Mesanna is more about her ability to evade the oathes, instead of it being about one of those four Aes Sedai in particular.

[Luckers]

I've said so before. I believe Brandon meant that she wasn't wrong in fearing that Mesaana's found a way to elude her Binder-test.

 

And we have a winner. Though the point about Egwene's logic still stands, it doesn't really matter. Neither of the 4 are Mesaana, and she is still in the Tower.

 

How do you think she'll (Mesaana) react if she sees Rand strolling about?

 

Those three are the topic of the thread. They may not matter in terms of who Mesaana is, but they are what we're talking about here.

[GB]

yeah i am leaning towards Mesaana posing an Aes Sedai and she beat the oath rod somehow and still is in the Tower.

 

i think somewhere one of the FS said something that there are many ways to beat the rod. can't recall exactly which book, it is one of the early books.

 

so likely she found a way around the oaths or as posted above doesnt believe she is a DF.

[NetSlider]

I've said so before. I believe Brandon meant that she wasn't wrong in fearing that Mesaana's found a way to elude her Binder-test.

 

And we have a winner. Though the point about Egwene's logic still stands, it doesn't really matter. Neither of the 4 are Mesaana, and she is still in the Tower.

 

How do you think she'll (Mesaana) react if she sees Rand strolling about?

 

Those three are the topic of the thread. They may not matter in terms of who Mesaana is, but they are what we're talking about here.

A very delicate way to get people back on track

[yoniy0]

Those three are the topic of the thread. They may not matter in terms of who Mesaana is, but they are what we're talking about here.

A very delicate way to get people back on track

Yeah, but we didn't get any new clues about them in the preview material, so if we're already discussing them here, is it really that wrong to hijack the concept farther?

[Sentinel78]

How do you think she'll (Mesaana) react if she sees Rand strolling about?

She doesn't strike me as bold enough to attack him head-on.

 

Bold enough to attack head-on? I would think attacking Rand would be the absolute last thing she would ever do. After Shaidar Haran's 'lesson' and Moridin's clear anger about Semirhage's own attack on Rand? I doubt she'd even fight back in the event she was recognized - she'd just run.

 

So, I don't think Rand is in any danger at all from Mesaana, although she may worry about being recognized despite her mild Illusion. In any case, whatever apprehension she has with regard to Rand probably won't make her behavior stand out much since all the Aes Sedai (Egwene included) will probably have similar reactions, i.e., fear, curiousity with some condescending-behavior thrown in.

[Vealdan]

Evanellein can be ruled out the same way as the other 3. She is a Sitter from before the Schism. Which means that she is probably at least 100 years old. She has been around quite much and on prominent position. It would be even more difficult for Mesaana to impersonate her.

[Lisa Campbell]

OK Hi everyone sorry to make you wait but it's only 5am downunder.

 

I think Netslider has locked on to where my theory comes from. I haven't been able to purchase the prologue so I'm a bit uninformed but here goes:

 

Mesaana has found a way to avoid the oath rod. She also has to have arrived at the tower in the last say 4-5 months. I started thinking which of the sisters she could be impersonating and first thought of Tsutama because she has come back from exile on a farm, one of the tower farms where a novice was serving penance was definately visited by a forsaken (in one of the prologues but I can't remember which one) and the novice and farm mistress killed, and Pevara described Tsutama as having nervous shifty eyes and a changed temperament.

 

Ok I had a suspect but could not think of any way for her to avoid the oaths by the power without it being noticed so...

 

Who else has come to the tower recently?

 

I know it's wild but I think that Mesaana could be disguising herself as Mattin Stepaneos. I don't think it would be too hard for Mesaana to pull this off even using a mask of mirrors. From what I recall she was described as being handsome not beautiful. Elaida kidnapped Mattin and had him brought to the tower, and it took longer than expected. Elaida commented that this was not such a bad thing in light of Alviarin's bungling and I think that that is how RJ threw us off the scent.

 

Also, Mattin was being shephereded by Red (or red/black) sisters which would give Mesaana plenty of opportunity to pass on instructions. We also haven't seen Mattin for quite a while, what's he been doing all this time?

 

From what I remember of the blogs from after tGS, there was a lot of speculation of how Mesaana had avoided the oaths and BS was very coy about answering. I think he is letting everyone believe their theories that Mesaana must have used the power to somehow evade the oaths. All he said was that she has found a way to evade the oath rod. What better way for Mesaana to avoid the testing than to pose as a man who would not be tested at all?

 

I also think that Nynaeve or Cadsuane will be the one to uncover her.

 

OK shoot me down or offer other suggestions please. And BTW, I know that this theory isn't about the prologue or chapter 1 but I couldn't find the old one from last year, sorry.

[NetSlider]

OK Hi everyone sorry to make you wait but it's only 5am downunder.

 

I think Netslider has locked on to where my theory comes from. I haven't been able to purchase the prologue so I'm a bit uninformed but here goes:

 

Mesaana has found a way to avoid the oath rod. She also has to have arrived at the tower in the last say 4-5 months. I started thinking which of the sisters she could be impersonating and first thought of Tsutama because she has come back from exile on a farm, one of the tower farms where a novice was serving penance was definately visited by a forsaken (in one of the prologues but I can't remember which one) and the novice and farm mistress killed, and Pevara described Tsutama as having nervous shifty eyes and a changed temperament.

 

Ok I had a suspect but could not think of any way for her to avoid the oaths by the power without it being noticed so...

 

Who else has come to the tower recently?

 

I know it's wild but I think that Mesaana could be disguising herself as Mattin Stepaneos. I don't think it would be too hard for Mesaana to pull this off even using a mask of mirrors. From what I recall she was described as being handsome not beautiful. Elaida kidnapped Mattin and had him brought to the tower, and it took longer than expected. Elaida commented that this was not such a bad thing in light of Alviarin's bungling and I think that that is how RJ threw us off the scent.

 

Also, Mattin was being shephereded by Red (or red/black) sisters which would give Mesaana plenty of opportunity to pass on instructions. We also haven't seen Mattin for quite a while, what's he been doing all this time?

 

From what I remember of the blogs from after tGS, there was a lot of speculation of how Mesaana had avoided the oaths and BS was very coy about answering. I think he is letting everyone believe their theories that Mesaana must have used the power to somehow evade the oaths. All he said was that she has found a way to evade the oath rod. What better way for Mesaana to avoid the testing than to pose as a man who would not be tested at all?

 

I also think that Nynaeve or Cadsuane will be the one to uncover her.

 

OK shoot me down or offer other suggestions please. And BTW, I know that this theory isn't about the prologue or chapter 1 but I couldn't find the old one from last year, sorry.

I think it's a long shot, but i agree on one thing - the most likely way she avoided the oath is by not taking it. i know that there are all kinds of theories out there as to how she pulled it of but the most logical way to avoid it is to not take it . Maybe she's some novice or accepted. or maybe she's that cook (whatever her name is) or maybe she's some servant, or maybe she even pretends to be a man - long story short, Arkhams Razor states that entities should not be multiplied needlessly; the simplest of two competing theories is to be preferred, and we should apply it here i think. Just because BA say she's pretends to be AS and other Chosen think so too, it does not make it true. If anything, she would be the most exposed forsaken we so (it seems that everyone knows where and who she is) which does not follow any logic.

[Sentinel78]

I know it's wild but I think that Mesaana could be disguising herself as Mattin Stepaneos. I don't think it would be too hard for Mesaana to pull this off even using a mask of mirrors. From what I recall she was described as being handsome not beautiful. Elaida kidnapped Mattin and had him brought to the tower, and it took longer than expected. Elaida commented that this was not such a bad thing in light of Alviarin's bungling and I think that that is how RJ threw us off the scent.

 

??? Mattin Stepaneos? I see a bunch of problems with that.

 

(1) That would be dramatically different than Mesaana's own appearance (not to mention height, etc.), and Illusion is more obvious with bigger changes,

(2) Does Illusion even work for voices?

(3) How could she wear clothes, unless the clothes were Illusion too? They would fall off of her, as Mattin takes up a lot more room than Mesaana would. (speaking of which, how the heck did Lanfear wear clothes when she was being big fat Keille? -- maybe clothes-Illusions aren't that hard)

(4) Graendal is convinced Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai

(5) Alviarin is convinced she should be able to recognize Mesaana, her face tugged at her memory or something in the 'Mark' Chapter.

 

I could go on, but I don't see this as possible.

 

Also, Brandon seemed to indicate that she DID take the Oaths on the Oath Rod, but that we should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.

 

The easiest way is obviously just don't take any Oaths.

 

Another way is to use Illusion to make it appear as if your hand is on the Rod when you are taking the Oaths, but in truth your hand is either not on the Rod when you are taking the Oaths, e.g., Mesaana is wearings gloves, uses Illusion to make it appear there is skin-contact to the Rod while she takes the Oaths, and then inverts all the weaves. Oath Rod defeated.

[Gor]

OK Hi everyone sorry to make you wait but it's only 5am downunder.

 

I think Netslider has locked on to where my theory comes from. I haven't been able to purchase the prologue so I'm a bit uninformed but here goes:

 

Mesaana has found a way to avoid the oath rod. She also has to have arrived at the tower in the last say 4-5 months. I started thinking which of the sisters she could be impersonating and first thought of Tsutama because she has come back from exile on a farm, one of the tower farms where a novice was serving penance was definately visited by a forsaken (in one of the prologues but I can't remember which one) and the novice and farm mistress killed, and Pevara described Tsutama as having nervous shifty eyes and a changed temperament.

 

Ok I had a suspect but could not think of any way for her to avoid the oaths by the power without it being noticed so...

 

I think Tsutama is an excellent suspect. Avoiding the Oath Rod is as simple as avoiding a lie while not telling the truth. She is not a Darkfriend. She is one of the Chosen. This series is rife with Aes Sedai elusiveness and half-truths. All evidence suggests that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai, would not the simple solution here be to accept that, rather than come up with a way for her not to be Aes Sedai and therefore avoid the oath rod entirely?

 

On the Tsutama notion, has anyone compared outfits she was seen in with those described by Alviarin while in the presence of Mesaana? Don't have access to the books at the moment or I would check.

[Sharaman]

Mesaana has been in the White Tower since TDR.

Verin met her twice - TGS A vist from Verin Sedai.

Those meetings had to take place before Verin left for the Two Rivers because she's only been back in the Tower once, for a single day, in that chapter.

So this entire line of logic is wrong.

If you're looking for Mesaana, look for somebody who has been in the Tower since TSR at the very least.

The post-Elaida exiles who come off the farm etc are out.

[Lisa Campbell]

@Sentinal

 

I think what BS said was that if she was posing as AS, then she would have to take the test.

 

Also, I don't remember Egwene describing Mattin as a large man but even if he was, Mesaana could probably manage it. Lanfear gallivanted around the Waste posing as Keille without the disguise failing. Moggy also commented in her POV in Salidar that she had managed to hold a few things back from Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene. There could be another method of disguising yourself that we don't know about.

[Sentinel78]

@Sentinal

 

I think what BS said was that if she was posing as AS, then she would have to take the test.

 

Also, I don't remember Egwene describing Mattin as a large man but even if he was, Mesaana could probably manage it. Lanfear gallivanted around the Waste posing as Keille without the disguise failing. Moggy also commented in her POV in Salidar that she had managed to hold a few things back from Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene. There could be another method of disguising yourself that we don't know about.

 

I guess it's theoretically possible, but just seems like it'd be a pretty tough balancing act for Mesaana. Plus, as a man, she wouldn't have access to much of the Tower.

[sumquy]

i've said all along that i thought mesaana was tsutama, but nobody ever wants to hear it. more than that though, i don't understand why everybody always assumes that she is one person. like once she assumes an identity she is locked into it come hell of high water. if i was her i'd be changing identities more often than elayne takes baths.

 

the other thing is the easiest way to defeat the oath rod is simply to not swear on it. honestly, i think brandon is throwing out a red herring with his way to defeat the oath rod statement. i am going to be somewhat unhappy if it turns out all you have to do is cross your fingers behind your back and the oaths aren't binding anymore.

[Sharaman]

Mattin doesn't work for the same reason that Tsutsama doesn't work. They both came to the Tower after Elaida's ascension. Mesaana was already ensconced well before that occurred. Verin left the Tower well before Siuan was deposed and she met Mesaana twice before she left.

So to postulate Mattin/ Tsutsama, you have to assume Mesaana has switched IDs at least once, which is unlikely for several reasons.