Not a big thing , but still interesting...

[Artemis]

Im rerereading the series and when Rand has captured Asmo and is forcing him to be his teacher he asks him : What are the chances of me winning TG?

And Asmo says that without the TWO ter´angreal that allow acces to the Choeden Kal (or however ya fecking spell it)he has no chance whatsoever...

We know that Matty boy is gonna get Moiraine out of Finnworld but since she went through the doorway doesnt she have the chance to have 3 things she wants? My guess is that one of those things is an acces ter´angreal (although i dont think this has to do with saving the world its just something on the sideline).

But this theory has 2 faults :

1-Moiraine (as far as we know) doesnt know the Choeden Kal exist.

2-Can the Finns make anything you want or does it have to exist before hand?

Please someone give me proof that im wrong... i cant stop turning this thing around in my head...

*whimpers*

[Bob T Dwarf]

From what is said in the BWB - Strike at Shayol Ghul - the implication is that there were more than just two access keys. We've already seen a second broken female key in Tanchico.

 

Having an intact feminine access key won't matter much anyway. Cleansing saidin melted both the key Nynaeve was using and the actual sa'angreal on Tremelking. There is nothing there anymore but a hole in the ground.

[Artemis]

shit, how could i have forgotten the melting of the one in Tremalking! lol

[fixedMind]

rand will only need the one

[Jbw]

I thought we all agreed (...well I decided) that Richard was going to win TG...

[the dude]

there is to consider that asmodean was not the be all and end all authority on the matter. he was thinking in terms of sheer power, but that's not how it's going to be won, i'm sure. my vote is, and remains, for a brilliant plan concocted by the late Herid Fel. No, no, he won't be a ghost, but he will have given Rand the idea of how to win.

 

And Jbw, Richard Rahl will be too busy getting his butt whipped by Sparhawk to be doing anything about the Dark One. SPARHAWK SUPLEX!!!!!

[Artemis]

I reckon the to utterly defeat the DO the Creator has to intervine(although maybe not directly): During the books it has been repeated too many times that the taint on saidin was caused by "Lews Therin´s pride in trying to do that wich only the Creator could have achieved.

Although maybe the DO wont be defeated only imprisoned again outside the pattern...

Also it is my opinion that we will find out something shocking about the DO because up to now we dont know ANYTHING of him (her/it) its not like Lord of the Rings were half way during the book we start to learn where Suron came from etc...

[Jellybelly]

Well, you seem to be equating the Dark One and Sauron, which I think cannot really be done. They are similar only in that they are the main antagonists in their respective series, and that they play a sort of "sleeping God"-role.

 

Other than that, I do not think we need to know more about the Dark One. We know enough. He is not a mean sorcerer or spirit turned to evil, he is an eternal being, the adversary of the Creator. He is not the Fallen Angel of the Bible and LotR (or the spirit servant of the Fallen Angel), he is a like a god. There is no backstory worth mentioning.

[joeybsmash]

does anyone remember the logic of harid fel? remeber that in order for the creator to seal the DO away at the moment of creation the DO must be freed in a previous age? maybe the DO breaks free, maybe rand lets him loose, or maybe he is sealed away as the creator intended to be freed in a future age.

[TaeaDawn]

Has anyone thought that the Do CAN'T be defeated? Not as in, he's all powerful and can't be stopped.. but as in... if he doesn't exist.. what can? As in there is no good without evil and no evil without good. You can't have the creator without the DO, which is why the creator simply bound him and hasn't intervened since. He can't be destroyed or everything esle will be to.

 

My other thought, was that if the DO is released, it changes the wheel of time and therefore it is no longer spinning, which seems like a bad thing to me. No repeating, no spinning.

 

So... I think he's gonna get sealed up again and in another spinning of the wheel another Dragon will be reborn. Only this time Rand AND LTT will be talking in his head! Hey.. at least they can argue with each other instead of him :P

 

**giggles, pictuing Rand & LTT wrestling in the Dragon's head**

[Artemis]

No, i still think we are gonna find out something new about the DO theres just not enough information about him...

Maybe we will find out that the Creator and the DO are one and the same just that with different "sides" to them.Heck we even know less of the Creator... we dont even know if hes actually good!

I read a theory way back in the old DM where someone said that the DO was actually the concept of evil when the Creator sealed him away but in the moment when the DO came to our Universe he had to assume a "form" and stop being an abstract thing, i really liked this theory!

[Luckers]

That thing about LTT's pride resulting in the taint and all that may just be propaganda thats grown around Aes Sedai femininity--like, the unplesentness of having to gentle men resulted in this 'well, its all there fault' type of thing. It would indeed make sense after three thousand years of this for a superiority complex to develop.

[Slayer]

My other thought' date=' was that if the DO is released, it changes the wheel of time and therefore it is no longer spinning, which seems like a bad thing to me. No repeating, no spinning. [/quote']

The goal of the Dark One is to destroy the Wheel. If he was an integral part of the Wheel's balance, he could simply go 7 ages or so without interacting with humans just so the Wheel would be destroyed and he would be freed. Obviously, since he is taking a part in the Wheel, he knows that he can't get free otherwise. Also, if the DO had to play a part in the Wheel to keep it balanced, there would be no need for ta'veren (the wheel's defense mechanism). Ta'veren are used as a counterbalance to the DO's influence on the world.

 

My personal theory is that the DO is bulding Shaidar Haran as his avatar in the LB. Now I like to think that to do this, he makes himself mortal in order to take a direct hand in events. If Rand kills Shaidar Haran, maybe, just maybe, the DO is defeated forever. The DO himself has knowledge of all past battles with the Dragon (obviously), since he exists outside the Wheel. I think that he has been planning more and more daring plans every turning to defeat the Dragon, and that every time he gets defeated. He has finally realized that he must risk utter defeat to win complete victory, so he is going to make himself mortal in SH. Since he has done this, the Creator has also decided to take a direct hand (inspiring Herid Fel possibly, and speaking to Rand in EotW at Tarwin's Gap).

[Bob T Dwarf]

Was it the Creator, or was it the DO that spoke to him at Tarwin's Gap?

 

If it was the Creator, then why is everyone so sure it was Moridin who rescued him in Shadar Logoth?

[SinisterDeath]

The whole debate about tarwin's gap was actually decided awhile ago to be the darkone.

 

As for shadar logoth. If you actually READ that book, and not look at scrib notes, you will notice that not only does that guy rand met, fit every description of Moridin, he acts like him, and also makes a comment along the lines. "I don't want you dead now, but the next time I see you, we will be rivals"

Morridin basically wanted samuel out of the way, and didn't see any need to kill rand. He intends to face rand another time.

ALSO if you notice they both used BALEFIRE, and crossed there beams of balefire together, causing a very insane reaction. Which you find out in KOD also effects Moridin, as well as Rand. *remember how when rand gets that weird effect, he sometimes see's that "mans face", well When moridin channels to, he also see's rands face.

 

Also, if it Were the creator there saving rand, he wouldnt be channeling the TP, he'd be using pure OP....

[Luckers]

The man in Shadar Logoth was Moridin, but the voice at tarwin's gap was not 'decided' to be the Dark One. Firstly, any decision made by the fans is not indictive of RJ's place on the matter. Secondly at that stage the Dark One could not speak to anyone outside of Shayol Ghoul, and even there only in the bore itself. We have evidence of this up to the end of the sixth book, and without any evidence that its changed since then we must conclude that it is still the case. There is some possibility that it was Ishamael, but we have no evidence before or after of any human character being able to speak directly into the mind of an awake person.

 

Since it couldn't be the dark one, and its unlikely that it was ishamael it seems plausible that it was the Creator. Alternatively it could be the very first appearence of LTT, though that seems implausible. Myself, i believe that the Eye of the World was written to be a stand alone novel, and that it was altered slightly in editing when the idea of a series occured to RJ. In that light it makes sense for it to be the creator, though in the view of it as a series, it makes no sense that the creator would so involve himself at that point. the same argument could be made for LTT involving himself at that point.

 

Another possibility that just occured to me is that it had something to do with the Eye of the World itself. Perhaps that source retained some imprint of the channelers that made it, and it was they that spoke to Rand... we know such imprinting is possible (i.e. mordeth in SL, the ghosts in the towers etc) and we know that a hundred Aes Sedai died to make it... that would imprint something, if anything would.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As for shadar logoth. If you actually READ that book' date=' and not look at scrib notes, you will notice that not only does that guy rand met, fit every description of Moridin, he acts like him, and also makes a comment along the lines. "I don't want you dead now, but the next time I see you, we will be rivals"

Morridin basically wanted samuel out of the way, and didn't see any need to kill rand. He intends to face rand another time.

ALSO if you notice they both used BALEFIRE, and crossed there beams of balefire together, causing a very insane reaction. Which you find out in KOD also effects Moridin, as well as Rand. *remember how when rand gets that weird effect, he sometimes see's that "mans face", well When moridin channels to, he also see's rands face.

 

Also, if it Were the creator there saving rand, he wouldnt be channeling the TP, he'd be using pure OP....[/quote']

 

Well, if YOU actually read the book you'd know that's it's Sammael not Samuel, and you'd know that what he said is, "Count yourself lucky that I do not care to see you die today." Later he says, "Try not to stumble. A great many plans will have to be relaid if you allow yourself to be killed now."

 

OP is what the Creator made to drive the Wheel, not necessarily the only Power available to him. It's a big assumption to assert that the only possible source for an undetectable Power is the DO.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The man in Shadar Logoth was Moridin' date=' but the voice at tarwin's gap was not 'decided' to be the Dark One. Firstly, any decision made by the fans is not indictive of RJ's place on the matter. Secondly at that stage the Dark One could not speak to anyone outside of Shayol Ghoul, and even there only in the bore itself. [/quote']

 

All we really know about the man at Shadar Logoth is that he is the one Rand keeps seeing in his head. Yes, his description sounds like Moridin, but that really doesn't mean much. Lots of people in the world are tall and dark. The balefire touching affected him as much as it did Rand. I wouldn't expect him to be pleased about being knocked off his feet.

 

We have never learned the real limits of the DO's power. Tarwin's Gap was in the Blight. The DO may have been able to speak to Rand anywhere in the Blight. The Creator taking a hand at that point and then disappearing ever since seems pretty suspicious.

 

For the record, I do think it was Moridin, and I don't believe it was the Creator. But, those are only my personal impressions. I simply don't think we have enough evidence yet to say for sure in either case.

[SinisterDeath]

Okay, so I make a small typo on a character spelling no one cares about, and you tell me to read the books? When you are the one who makes a massive plot mistake? Had you actually read Kod, and not those scrib notes, you would have found that moridin also has the same "side effects" as Rand, completely pointing all suspicion on him...

Did I also forget to mention, that Moridin, also made SEVERAL appearences in crown of swords?

I think he made about 5 of them, And each of the descriptions, as well as all the "povs" of that character are consistantly the same through out the book.

 

As for eye of the world. The only reason we have evidence it "was" the darkone, is the way in which he speaks to people. That massive ringing sound and the CAP LOCKED LETTERS LIKE THIS. It was early in the book, and RJ probably only knew how it was going to end but not the journy there, So he said "hey if this is going to end in 3 books, why not just have it be the DO?" And you'll notice, as each book progressed, that "3 books idea" got a little bit less and less... I think you are seeing where I'm going with this...

 

The point is, the creator, wouldn't just interfere with events like that and not show up when people need him the most.

There is that possibility it was Ishmale, but how he did it... we wouldnt know.

[Luckers]

The thing is we DO know the dark ones limits in this. Lanfear tells Rand, and then we have many instances of people having to go to the pit to hear him speak, AND of the Dark One having to send subbordinates when he wanted someone to come and talk to him.

 

I admit though that it seems somewhat shifty for the Creator to involve himself... and indeed i said as much in my last post, and offered my reasons... still, the same reasons its unlikely its the Creator also suite the Dark One, only we know of other reasons that also fit the dark one, therefore deductively its much more likely to be the Creator.

 

Personally i think it was a mistake on RJ's part, made before he knew the true layout of the world much akin to the way that channeling (for example the way they travelled) in the early books changed later on. Nevertheless i prefer my idea that it was the imprints of the Aes Sedai that died at the Eye. Its a rationalization, but its the best one that fits what was probably an inherent mistake.

[Slayer]

The dialogue spoken does not match the DO and if it were the DO, why would RJ reply in an interview to RAFO? Why would the DO say "ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO IT, IF HE WILL."?

[Bob T Dwarf]

That whole passage is very strange.

 

"IT IS NOT HERE..."

 

And, then the stairs in midair to wherever Ba'alzamon is. Did the speaker create that stairway? Did Ba'alzamon? Does "IT" refer to where Baalzy is, or someplace/something else?

 

Very strange. Very mysterious. And, never adequately explained.

[Luckers]

The whole ending of the Eye of the World confuses the hell out of me. Why on earth would Moiraine drop the earth out from under Aginor and create fire when she is weak in weaving earth and fire? And why didn't they just try and shield each other? What was the importance of the pure saidin? Even with RJ's explanations that seemed a little weak to me. And how on earth did rand beat anyone--he knew nothing about channeling. All in all that confused the heck out of me.

[Slayer]

if it was the Creator, though, it could explain why he doesn't take a part in any other events, because he says

 

"I WILL TAKE NO PART..."

[Ilyena]

I agree with slayer, it makes sense the Creator says "I WILL TAKE NO PART.." and sasys nothing the rest of the books.