Not a big thing , but still interesting...

[Bob T Dwarf]

It makes no sense for him to say that. He is taking part by providing the stairway to where Baalzy is.

 

All we truly know, is that the DO is the only one we've seen who speaks in ALL CAPS.

 

We have no information whatsoever that the Creator is either aware, or cares what happens on one piddly planet.

 

We also have no info that he doesn't. It could be either the Creator or the Dark One who is speaking. We simply can't tell. Neither from what's said nor from subsequent events.

[Siswaiaman]

But the creator HAS to be aware. I can't remember who explained it (DARN THE EXPANSIVE SERIES!) But someone said that the creator is good, the Dark one is bad, but the pattern is neutral. Ishmael has it in his head that the dark one will come out again and remake the world in the shadow, but the creator MADE the world, and also made the dark one, locking him up. At this magnitude of power, we can assume that he can intervene. That he will is decided only by RJ, but if the dark one is bad, then whp is there to be good.

 

All im saying is that the Creator has to show his hand at some point, and wherever that is is bound to be against the shadow.

 

Another point. If Rand really did cross balefire with Ishmael's resurrected form, why/how did they link? Since they did, he linked with someone using the TP, stemming from the dark one. Any link with the DO?

 

Last point, i promise; the linking ter'angreal, or as refered to in the Assult at Shayoh Ghul (major sp) as the control ter'angreal. With that at his side, and a circle of aes sedai and ashaman, what could stop him from doing what he wished at shayoh ghul(sp again). Remeber that the final strike was being held off until the ter'angreal and sa'angreal could be completed, and the one hundred companions was a last ditch effort, since the control ter'angreal were lost under Demandred's strike(?). Now that one is present, even all of the forsaken linked could not stop rand's circle.

 

Im done (almost)

Whoever said that Lews hein caused the taint because he was playing with things only the creator should meddle in, please re-read the series. The taint was a counter-attack when the DO was being sealed, and if memory serves me correctly, it was launched at saidir because the hundred companions were all men. For sure they all went insane when they selad the prison.

 

P.S. Im really sorry on the sketch facts, i didn't have time to double check from the books.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good recall.

 

Yes, the taint was the DO's counterstrike AS the Bore was being sealed.

 

I agree, the taint wasn't caused by anything LTT did. It was just the DO being the DO.

 

We can hope the Creator is aware, but there's no guarantee that Jordan's Creator bears any resemblance to Christian concepts of God.

 

Rand certainly seems to be the Creator's Champion. That argues that the Creator is biased in favor of mankind, but... things seem to be set up so that mankind lives or dies according to the outcome of its own efforts. If mankind makes good decisions it will continue. If not, then, after the DO kills everyone off the Creator might step in, slap the DO down and start over.

 

Or not. Depending on how strong the DO has become.

[Slayer]

I somewhat believe that the Creator-DO relationship is like yin-yang, except that the Creator has to be somehow more powerful, b/c he imprisoned the DO.And the Creator made the Wheel (I think) so that the world could preserve itself against the DO. And now that the Wheel's defense mechanisms aren't self-sufficient this time, the Creator may take a part in saving the world. But it does make sense that the Creator said "I WILL TAKE NO PART..." He didn't take a part by giving Rand a doorway to Baalzamon. He just showed him the way.

 

It had to have been the DO or the Creator, one or the other, because Rand was just standing there and all of the sudden he is whisked to Tarwin's Gap. That doesn't fit the description of a OP gateway, but it sounds more like a TP gateway, as in EotW prologue. And it could have been the Creator also, since he is likely to have some time of Power like the DO.

[Luckers]

I have my suspicions that the creator made the wheel of time solely to keep the Dark One from bothering him, but meh.

[Shai-tan]

What if the bore to the DO's prison was planted on earth by the creator because humans are what the creator made as its guardians (cause there are other planets why werent one of them chosen?). Then if the humans fail the Creator will find a new species/planet to protect it. The creator then made a chosen one (the dragon) to help lead the guards..... What if Humans aren't the only species who have protected the bore and the Dragon has spawned in many species.... Opps a bit too deep maybe even for RJ. But what if like the Dinosaurs once protected it and Dragon (name) originally stemmed from there. Cause RJ does make references to the moon landing and things, what if the hole of earth's evolution was stemmed around protecting the bore... Ok now Im blabbering.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Only the Dark One's prison was put in the world by the Creator. The Bore was created by Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends as a way to tap a newly discovered source of Power that could be used by male and female alike.

 

An interesting note is that, while the Foresaken had to go to the Shayol Ghul to talk to the Dark One, there is some mention that they really weren't any closer to the "Bore" and the Dark One's prison than anywhere else in the world.

[Jellybelly]

Nonono, the Dark One's prison is not "in" the world. It is not a physical cage that can fit in the world. It is everywhere at the same time, and it is outside of time and creation. Only a thinness in the Pattern (as in Reality) located at Shayol Ghul allows him to be sensed there.

[Wedge6173]

The man in Shadar Logoth was Moridin' date=' but the voice at tarwin's gap was not 'decided' to be the Dark One. Firstly, any decision made by the fans is not indictive of RJ's place on the matter. Secondly at that stage the Dark One could not speak to anyone outside of Shayol Ghoul, and even there only in the bore itself. We have evidence of this up to the end of the sixth book, and without any evidence that its changed since then we must conclude that it is still the case. There is some possibility that it was Ishamael, but we have no evidence before or after of any human character being able to speak directly into the mind of an awake person.

 

Since it couldn't be the dark one, and its unlikely that it was ishamael it seems plausible that it was the Creator. Alternatively it could be the very first appearence of LTT, though that seems implausible. Myself, i believe that the Eye of the World was written to be a stand alone novel, and that it was altered slightly in editing when the idea of a series occured to RJ. In that light it makes sense for it to be the creator, though in the view of it as a series, it makes no sense that the creator would so involve himself at that point. the same argument could be made for LTT involving himself at that point.

 

Another possibility that just occured to me is that it had something to do with the Eye of the World itself. Perhaps that source retained some imprint of the channelers that made it, and it was they that spoke to Rand... we know such imprinting is possible (i.e. mordeth in SL, the ghosts in the towers etc) and we know that a hundred Aes Sedai died to make it... that would imprint something, if anything would.[/size']

 

I find the latter possibility more and more interesting, one hundred Aes Sedai, of Age of Legend power and skill, died to make the Eye, for me, it would make sense that not only would it be a pool of clean Sadin, but it would guide whoever is supposed to use it to serve ends that those Aes Sedai would support.

[ronoc/booms]

I have a theory which i think might explain a few things. Please keep in mind, its just a theory.

 

In the earlier books, we learn that one of the main beliefs of Randland is "The Dark One and all the Forsaken were all bound in Shayol Ghul, at the moment of creation, by the Creator." We now know that most of this is incorrect. The Forsaken weren't bound at the moment of creation, but in the Age of Legends, at the end of the War of Power. We know that the Creator didn't seal them, it was Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions. Knowing the majority of this "creed" is false, I personaly believe it is logical to presume the rest of it is also incorrect. After all, why would the Creator create the Dark One only to seal him in a prison straight away. My belief is that he did not create the Dark One, and that the Dark One is infact a currupt human. and i think there is evidence that supports my believe.

 

Ishamael tells us that the Dark One has battled the Creators champion (for convieniance sake we'll call him the Dragon) thousands of times before. It is not nessisary to believe this, but Herid Fel also seemed to agree with this theory. This would then suggest that the Creator isn't in fact the one who sealed the Dark One in the way we found him bound in the Age of Ledgends. Thus disproving (if you belief Ishamael and Master Fel) the last part of the "Creed".

 

Many theories suggest that the Creator made the Dark One as a balance,in order to keep the world in a balance. So, that like Saidin and Saidar, the Dark One and the Creator would work against eack other, keeping the Wheel spinning. If this is so, then why would the Dark One only fight the Creators champion rather than the Creator himself. It seems as though the Creator is much more powerful if only his champion has to keep Shai'tan in toe, rather than him, himself. Look at it on a scale, imagine the Dark One on oneside and the Dragon on the other. They fight, and ity is suggested to us, that they beat each other a equal number of times. But on the Dragons side of the scale sit the Creator. He would tilt the balance. Now imagine the Creator looking at the scale, not sitting on it. It is balanced. So the Creator himself doesn't fight the Dark One, he lets his champion. To me this implies that the Creator is a much more powerful being than the Dark One.

 

Many theories also say that the Creator is "good". This would seem to make sence as, the Dark One is definatly evil and the pattern is neutral. That would be a balance. Unless he include another element. If the Dragon is on the same scale as the Dark One as i've suggested he is, and he is good, then it is not balance. We have two positive (The Creator and the Dragon), one negative (the Dark One) and one neutral (the Pattern). Now if we made the Creator neutral, then we would have a balance. Two neutrals,a positive and a negative. This would made sence as if the Creator is Good and he made the Pattern, why would he make it neutral?

 

That was a bit off topic, I apologis but it seems to fit in. And that the Wheel most be balanced is all my theory has to go on. (I'm almost done I promsie)

 

Now i see the Dark One as a human, but a human who has risen above the bounds of mortality as it is known. Look at Padan Fain. He can do things no normal human can, but his power doesn't come from the Creator, or the Dark One. Imagine if Shai'tan was similer to Padan Fain in his Age. That at the Last Battle in his Age he was there, and when the Dark One of his Age was defeated, he was accidently sealed away from the Pattern. Imagine if he had thousands of years to develope those unusual skills. When he was released, wouldn't his powers equal that of the previous Dark One?

 

i believe this is how the current Dark One came to being. It would answer amny questions, such as why the Creator never takes a direct hand in events. How could he chose one human over another.

 

I'm sure there are many hole is this theory, and i kow it was long and blown out, but i want to try and cover every point.

[Red States Rule!]

Kidding me, Dude?

 

I could see Belgarion giving Sparhawk the People's Elbow and Hogan's leg drop.

[Hotspur]

I would argue that the voice at Tarwin's Gap is more than likely the Creator, because:

 

1) as many people have noted previously, the nature of the comments this voice makes are in keeping with sentiments the creator is likely to express

 

2) the nature of the moment. Rand has just started to channel in a major way. He is, for the first time, actively choosing to oppose the FS and DO in a major and useful fashion. Though he spends the next book trying to avoid it, this is pretty much the first time he has to make a major choice, and when his destiny is kind of revealed. If he is, as has been argued, the Creator's champion, and the Creator is, as has been argued, a non-interventionist for the most part, this would kind of make sense. He speaks to him at this most crucial moment, launching him along the path he now follows. Notice also, the voice is kind of abstract. "Only the Chosen One... if he will..." etc. Not "only YOU, the Chosen one..." I mean, obviously, he's not going to spell it out for Rand, but it's an odd way of putting it. Kind of like he's aware of Rand's presence and the fact that he's listening, but he's talking more to himself, or someone else.