Chapter 1 "Apples First"

[dwn]

Moridin could decide his previous logic was wrong and initiate the swap intentionally in an effort to help Rand. Farfetched, perhaps, but his motivations are quite different than the simple evil that drives the other Forsaken and Darkfriends. Who knows what impact Veins of Gold will have on him?

 

Wouldn't it be fun if a little bubble of sunshine started following Moridin around?

 

-- dwn

[maradon]

Well in Terez' review it says;

think we have a clear answer by the end of the book over whether or not a certain person was turned to the Shadow, or came by free will.

I thought that this would refer to Moridin, as I doubt one of the smartest minds of the AoL would turn to the shadow because of inevitability.

[GB]

Well in Terez' review it says;

think we have a clear answer by the end of the book over whether or not a certain person was turned to the Shadow, or came by free will.

I thought that this would refer to Moridin, as I doubt one of the smartest minds of the AoL would turn to the shadow because of inevitability.

how about taim?

[maradon]

Graendal and Demandred are both possibilities as well. RJ said that being turned just heightened a persons evil qualities and suppressed good qualities. Not sure I can think of other evil channelers that might fit the effects of being turned, but in the context of the quote your probably right that it refers to Taim.

[DocBean]

Slayer seems to have been turned.

At least half of him was.

 

However, we don't know of a way to turn a non-channeler yet.

[algspkr]

Moridin and Graendal both turned before there were myrddraal and so had to have turned willingly.

[Cyf]

Just an odd thought, but I'm doing a re-read, and Mesaana seems ... odd in her POV in LoC. It's out there, but I'm wondering if she was Turned. Just a weird thought becausae of how she was reacting to Demandred talking about the Dragon and how much she disliked Semi and didn't know why. Perhaps Semi had her turned, and her subconscious knows it.

[maradon]

I think as said above most of the forsaken were already aligned to the shadow before the myrddraal were created, the only exception would be demandred but i'm going to have to do some research on it. I would say Taim is the best bet at the moment.

[unlabled]

Well in Terez' review it says;

think we have a clear answer by the end of the book over whether or not a certain person was turned to the Shadow, or came by free will.

I thought that this would refer to Moridin, as I doubt one of the smartest minds of the AoL would turn to the shadow because of inevitability.

 

Pretty sure this is Taim.

[Rcurran]

Hey I found an interesting quote from LoC Chapter 1

 

 

"It had come on him slowly, but the more Rand learned of the One Power, the stronger he became with saidin, the stronger Lews Therin’s voice became, and the harder Rand had to fight to keep a dead man’s thoughts from taking him over. "

 

 

Could Rand's insanity combined with being full of saidin through the choden kal have caused his enlightenment/join with "Lews-Therin" in VoG?

 

Yep. A lot of people have thought that since reading TGS; pretty sure its fairly explicit.

[Abutt]

Yeah I agree with everything Terez just said. The progression of Lews Therin's growth and saidin are related, in the sense that Rand's progression with saidin is related to his exposure to the Taint. Rand and Lews Therin remained apart because Rand forced them apart by refusing to accept that they weren't two different men, but rather the same soul. When he finally accepted that in tGS he and Lews Therin finally intergrated, as per Semirhages comments.

I agree but there is one thing that is bothering me: In tGS when Rand is in TAR he feels more complete, more together or something along those lines and he also cant hear the voice so..... what does that mean exactly....

[ajfurst]

Yeah I agree with everything Terez just said. The progression of Lews Therin's growth and saidin are related, in the sense that Rand's progression with saidin is related to his exposure to the Taint. Rand and Lews Therin remained apart because Rand forced them apart by refusing to accept that they weren't two different men, but rather the same soul. When he finally accepted that in tGS he and Lews Therin finally intergrated, as per Semirhages comments.

I agree but there is one thing that is bothering me: In tGS when Rand is in TAR he feels more complete, more together or something along those lines and he also cant hear the voice so..... what does that mean exactly....

There is no voice. Or at least no other person. It was a mental illness of Rand to have Lews Therin's memories and knowledge 'given' to him via the voice, because he couldn't/wouldn't accept what being Lews Therin reborn truly meant. Rand feared being taken over by another person, but there never was another, he was always Lews Therin or at least his soul, the same soul down the ages as seen in Veins of Gold. It never meant Rand was suddenly going to disappear. Now he's accepted that and has access to his memories when the soul was in the body of Lews Therins (assuming from the pre-release and VOG info.). Now in TOM we finally for the first time in the series see a true Aes Sedai not turned to the Shadow. :)

[maradon]

There is no voice. Or at least no other person. It was a mental illness of Rand to have Lews Therin's memories and knowledge 'given' to him via the voice, because he couldn't/wouldn't accept what being Lews Therin reborn truly meant. Rand feared being taken over by another person, but there never was another, he was always Lews Therin or at least his soul, the same soul down the ages as seen in Veins of Gold. It never meant Rand was suddenly going to disappear. Now he's accepted that and has access to his memories when the soul was in the body of Lews Therins (assuming from the pre-release and VOG info.). Now in TOM we finally for the first time in the series see a true Aes Sedai not turned to the Shadow. :)

But how did LTT seize the power when fighting the trollocs if he did not exist? Also didnt Semi actually say that the voice can be a real incarnation?

[tneva82]

But how did LTT seize the power when fighting the trollocs if he did not exist? Also didnt Semi actually say that the voice can be a real incarnation?

 

It was real in the sense voice had real LTT's personality. Afterall Rand has LTT's memories and this includes his personality...Afterall what personality is but sum of persons experience? Aka memory.

 

Rand doesn't accept him being same person and taint causes insanity->Rand creates this voice as his self-defence mechanism for these new memories. Voice that happens to base itself on memories of LTT->LTT's personality.

[Cyf]

Basically, the LTT in Rand's head was a secondary personality that Rand himself created due to both the taint and being unwilling to accept who he is. The personality was shaped from the memories of LTT that kept coming up in Rand due to him being the Dragon and due to the Taint, as other men have had similar things according to Cadsuane.

 

But LTT was not the 'real LTT'. It wasn't a spirit or full mind. It was a construct created in Rand's mind due to insanity, shaped by the memories.

[Guest Nynaeve_alMeara]

Am I seriously the only person who thinks that Demandred is Taim? I mean, it would make such PERFECT sense. I've been thinking that for the last 7 books though, so....I guess we'll have to wait to find out.