WS discussion

[Jaydena]

I have an Accepted interested in going green, i'm not sure if she got in touch with you Lor or Jade. The Accepted in question is Kathleen, I can't remember are we still denying the Accepted the first time and doing the run through the Ajah and the battle weaves? I can't remember if we changed that. I know there was a topic about it on DM 7 but I thought I would check. LOL

Yup I have spoken to her already about that fact that she was going Green. She will do the stuff you mentioned, she is not required to actually rp it out as she used to have to but it's always good to do it for character development. She also is required to get a WS of 5 and won't be able to be raised to Aes Sedai until she does so.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

I have an Accepted interested in going green, i'm not sure if she got in touch with you Lor or Jade. The Accepted in question is Kathleen, I can't remember are we still denying the Accepted the first time and doing the run through the Ajah and the battle weaves? I can't remember if we changed that. I know there was a topic about it on DM 7 but I thought I would check. LOL

Yup I have spoken to her already about that fact that she was going Green. She will do the stuff you mentioned, she is not required to actually rp it out as she used to have to but it's always good to do it for character development. She also is required to get a WS of 5 and won't be able to be raised to Aes Sedai until she does so.

 

Wait she's required to get a WS of five I thought we were buggering that off? Because of the WS discussion we were having, and the Greens were giong to do something like a self defense with weaves class.

 

And do you mean she needs the WS of Five before she is raised in the eyes of the GA or before she is allowed to RP her oaths? Because if its before the oaths that could be a problem because Accepted aren't allowed in the training yards. So just curious. LOL

Edited September 20, 2010 by Rasheta Ardashir

[U4ea]

I haven't heard a peep from her, so this is news to me.

 

I don't think we ever came to a final decision about the WS thing, though I do remember that the "except the Greens" clause was everywhere because of our whole "We Stand Ready" thing. I know when I was raised (yeah, let's not remind us how long ago that's been...), I had to have the WS BEFORE I could RP the Oath Ceremony. Accepted were allowed in the Yard, but only while training and only for the purpose of training.

 

Honestly, I say we stick with tradition and keep it that way, personally. Some things should just be a standard for us...

[Elgee]

I hope you guys don't mind, but I'd like to say something here.

 

Whilst I'm tempted to say let the Greens have the final say on what they want for the Green Ajah, I also have to make sure that decisions are in the best interest of the whole Tower. To me, that means not allowing rules that would discourage people from joining an Ajah because they differ too greatly from what they would expect. Most people sign up here because they like the Wheel of Time books. If they want to join the Greens, that would therefore be because they like the Book Greens.

 

I cannot agree with system that either forces those people to do something that isn't in their scope of interest, or join another (less desired by them) Ajah. I stand by the opinion that if you want to wield a weapon other than Saidar, become a Warder or some other kind of warrior type. However, should they voluntarily choose to learn a weapon, then we can allow them to do that, with provisions which we are discussing at the moment.

 

Another compromise (and this would be my preferred one) could be to change the WS system to be Battle Tactics, not Weapons Training, as we were discussing in another thread before Lor went on LoA and DM8 happened. I could quite agree with making Battle Tactics mandatory for Greens - that would be much more logical than actually training with weapons.

 

Let me just state again that those who have attained certain Weapons Scores before, will not be affected by this.

[Jaydena]

I hope you guys don't mind, but I'd like to say something here.

 

Whilst I'm tempted to say let the Greens have the final say on what they want for the Green Ajah, I also have to make sure that decisions are in the best interest of the whole Tower. To me, that means not allowing rules that would discourage people from joining an Ajah because they differ too greatly from what they would expect. Most people sign up here because they like the Wheel of Time books. If they want to join the Greens, that would therefore be because they like the Book Greens.

 

I cannot agree with system that either forces those people to do something that isn't in their scope of interest, or join another (less desired by them) Ajah. I stand by the opinion that if you want to wield a weapon other than Saidar, become a Warder or some other kind of warrior type. However, should they voluntarily choose to learn a weapon, then we can allow them to do that, with provisions which we are discussing at the moment.

 

Another compromise (and this would be my preferred one) could be to change the WS system to be Battle Tactics, not Weapons Training, as we were discussing in another thread before Lor went on LoA and DM8 happened. I could quite agree with making Battle Tactics mandatory for Greens - that would be much more logical than actually training with weapons.

 

Let me just state again that those who have attained certain Weapons Scores before, will not be affected by this.

 

Elgee, the WS choice was a decision that was implimented by the Admins and when I was DL I talked to Owen and he still wanted it in place. It's up to you to talk to him and see if he wants to change it but like I said he did when I talked to him. Sorry guys I haven't been getting topic replies for this and forgot to check it.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

Jade I checked both the Website and with Raeyn who was an Admin and with Elgee who is current DL and all of the above have that the WS is not a requirement, it is a suggestion but it says no where that its a requirement. And I checked the website too just to make sure. The current WS topic is still in debate but it looks like its turning into a only if you want and the Greens were asked to teach something like the battle weaves as a class.

 

That being said I agree with Elgee, I think requiring it is a bit on the overmuch side. We already have them being denied and doing a walk through as well as the battle weaves although I was told that we aren't requiring them to do the battle weaves in RP anymore or the walk through? Is that right?

 

 

Edit: I just posted in the Staff board about this issue just so that I could get a clarification from Owen or Tay. Probably will know by tomorrow.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Rasheta Ardashir

[Jaydena]

Jade I checked both the Website and with Raeyn who was an Admin and with Elgee who is current DL and all of the above have that the WS is not a requirement, it is a suggestion but it says no where that its a requirement. And I checked the website too just to make sure. The current WS topic is still in debate but it looks like its turning into a only if you want and the Greens were asked to teach something like the battle weaves as a class.

 

That being said I agree with Elgee, I think requiring it is a bit on the overmuch side. We already have them being denied and doing a walk through as well as the battle weaves although I was told that we aren't requiring them to do the battle weaves in RP anymore or the walk through? Is that right?

 

 

Edit: I just posted in the Staff board about this issue just so that I could get a clarification from Owen or Tay. Probably will know by tomorrow.

#1 Raeyn was not an admin when this rule was implemented and she wasn't privy to every single discussion that I had with Owen, he was the boss not her. #2 as Greens we should be able to decide if we want to have a extra requirement to enter our Ajah. I don't see why if both the rp ajah head and the ooc ajah and part of the membership, (not sure as they haven't posted) say that they agree with it, than why it wouldn't be allowed. It's not that hard to train up to WS of 5. Heck it wasn't required when I was raised, but when they made it and the other reqs required I went back and retroed it. It was fun and interesting, and it was a good way to get involved in the Warders Yard who are after all our main pool for bonding and for rping.

 

When the rule was dropped and this was back when I believe Tayline was WT DL, we were told that we no longer had any of the reqs except for the WS5, for they believed that there may be times a Aes Sedai is unable to channel, and her warder if she has one may be down and out. I agree with them on that point and many other Greens throughout history have. Also keep in mind that many Greens would like to train up the higher WS's, this just sets them on the path quicker to that goal. I do also if I remember correctly talked to Owen and was allowed to have it changed to not being able to bond unless you are a WS of 5. That could be wrong but he may or may not remember it. Anyway I do feel this should be our choice, we get alot taken away from us with the many rules. Yes I know why they are in place, I was DL for a long time, but still it's not asking that much to allow us to make a decision like this that has been a tradition of ours for longer than most people at this site have been here, to stay as is.

[Taymist]

It's very nice to allow individual Ajahs to make decisions for themselves and none of us like too many restrictions or rules. However, it's the RGL's responsibility to ensure nothing is detrimental to the WT as a whole or to any of its members. If a requirement is likely to be discouraging people from choosing a specific Ajah or progressing with their RPs (meaning possible inactivity), then Elgee is quite right to step in and override it. The fact that something has "always been this way" or "has been done this way for a long time" is hardly a good argument to keep doing it.

 

On a personal note, I don't think it's a very good idea and how it ever got put into practice is beyond me tbh. It has no support in the Books and even if a few Green Sisters did choose to learn basic weaponry, not ALL of them would and not all of those who did would be any good. They have multiple Warders for a reason. Added to which, being The Battle Ajah has nothing to do with weapons or physical fighting. The Ajah got that name during the Trolloc Wars when they countered the Dreadlords using the OP. (TDR,Ch23) Admittedly, we don't follow the Books 100% on everything in the PSW, but making this an actual "must do" requirement before someone can even RP their Oaths is a bit extreme. Battle tactics on the other hand would indeed make a great deal of sense. All emphasis in the Tower when it comes to testing/training N & A is placed on their inner strength, their willpower, their suitability for becoming a Sister and their ability with the OP. For the Greens, leadership ability would be of particular importance since their role will be to lead the other Sisters when the Last Battle comes.... but where ability with physical weapons comes in, I don't know.

Anyhoo, that's simply my own opinion. Owen's LOA for a few days but as I already told Rashie I would, I've emailed him this morning regarding this topic. I'll let you know once I've had a reply.

[Elgee]

... #2 as Greens we should be able to decide if we want to have a extra requirement to enter our Ajah.

 

we get alot taken away from us with the many rules.

 

You're the one insisting on the rule, so please don't try to turn this around into ME being the one making rules. I'm trying to make it a choice, not a rule.

 

I don't see why if both the rp ajah head and the ooc ajah and part of the membership, (not sure as they haven't posted) say that they agree with it, than why it wouldn't be allowed.

 

Maybe you missed parts of my first post. I'll quote them here for you again:

 

Whilst I'm tempted to say let the Greens have the final say on what they want for the Green Ajah, I also have to make sure that decisions are in the best interest of the whole Tower.

 

It's not that hard to train up to WS of 5. Heck it wasn't required when I was raised, but when they made it and the other reqs required I went back and retroed it. It was fun and interesting, and it was a good way to get involved in the Warders Yard who are after all our main pool for bonding and for rping.

 

Make up your minds. You're insisting on making weapons training mandatory for Greens because there aren't enough Warders. Now you're saying you're wanting it because it helps you find Warders? Which is it, then? Other AS seem to find Warders easily enough without training with them.

 

And again, let me quote myself:

 

To me, that means not allowing rules that would discourage people from joining an Ajah because they differ too greatly from what they would expect. Most people sign up here because they like the Wheel of Time books. If they want to join the Greens, that would therefore be because they like the Book Greens.

 

I cannot agree with system that either forces those people to do something that isn't in their scope of interest, or join another (less desired by them) Ajah.

 

From what I can recall discussing this with Admins, the rule was brought in years ago to stem the flow of people who wanted to join the Greens, as opposed to other Ajahs. Apparently there were too many Greens and not enough others. Making it mandatory for Greens to do Weapons Training, and have a certain WS before being allowed to Bond, did the job - people didn't want to do that, so more started to pick other Ajahs. From what I can see of your active numbers (now that they are accurate), that is no longer necessary.

 

Now as I said, I am tempted to let you carry on doing something that is detrimental to your Ajah because I really don't wish to interfere. But would that be the correct thing for me to do?

 

ps: the quote function seems to be broken again. Hopefully it will either fix itself, or I'll edit this when the function is back online.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

I don't really have anything to add to this discussion other then to say that I was not required to get the WS of Five. I was working on it because I was asked to but have stopped and no one has said anything to me, and i'm a Sitter IC. So if its a rule why are you insisting on it for Kat but not for everyone? I know Nephi's character hasn't got the high a Weapons Score either.

 

Really the walk through and the rest is enough in my rather humble view. If the person in question chooses to do Weapons training as Lor has, I think her WS is something insane. LOL That's fine but it shouldn't be required.

[Jaydena]

I am done arguing about this honestly, your the bosses so just let me know what you decide. We have an Assistant Admin, the DL and the ADL arguing with us here. In my experience that's a lose lose situation for those wanting whatever it is they want. So I will just watch this from the sidelines and wait to find out the decision so that I can rp whatever needs rped. I have enough crap and drama in my life with my family with purposely arguing about this. *goes back to her rp corner*

 

Rasheta, the reason I talked to Kat about this is because no matter what I did as Ajah Head I couldn't get you to do the rule. I brought it up and brought it up and I finally gave up, because you wouldn't do it and make sure it was done. It wasn't worth fighting with you or enforcing the rule and at the time you were raised I was DL and honestly because you were raised during the period where you could go straight to full rank and didn't have to do any of the reqs, it slipped my mind. You were after all the ONLY person during that time period that took advantage of the offer. So I am sure it just didn't occur to me.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Jaydena

[Rasheta Ardashir]

First off if you go and find my WS training I am the last one to have posted in it. Second you didn't bug me and bug me about it. I TOLD you that I couldn't continue it, because the person I was training with was super busy, and since it was being done in retro I needed it to be done by someone who had been in the tower long enough that it would have been plausible. Lastly you told me not to worry about it.

 

That being said i'll say this again. No requirement necessary and as far as i'm concerned maybe we need to talk it over and just grandfather Kat in and not make her do it. Although as Elgee and Tay already said it seems kind of silly. But i'm up for talking it out and reaching some kind of compromise. *nods*

[Jaydena]

Make up your minds. You're insisting on making weapons training mandatory for Greens because there aren't enough Warders. Now you're saying you're wanting it because it helps you find Warders? Which is it, then? Other AS seem to find Warders easily enough without training with them.

Elgee that is not what I said hun, I said that they believed that there are times where your Warder or Warders might be out of commission and you for whatever reason can't channel and I said I agree. By the way this actually happened to Jade in an rp, she had channeled so much that she couldn't channel anymore and two of her warders had been killed. She ended up standing back to back with the other one fighting for her life while he tried to protect her. So it is possible in a battle situation and by the way this was before that rule was enforced. I never said that there weren't enough Warders, that was not implied in my post period. There are lots of Warder characters and since I am bonded several times I would be the last person to say that.

 

Rasheta well I actually have several PM's with me asking you how the WS was going inside my PM box and maybe my opinion and your opinion of bugging differ slightly. Doesn't matter as it's done with now. Do any of you have any idea what it looks like or how you make me look as one of the Ajah Heads when I answer an Accepteds Pm about something and than you all go around and decide that what I said doesn't count and that we are changing things.

 

You take away any authority I have and make me look like a total ninny to that Accepted, and honestly that miffs me quite a bit. I am the one that is going to have to go eat crow with Kat, not any of you. Let's not just talk about that, let's talk about how it makes me feel as a person, a person behind the screenname. I have already dealt with enough stuff at this site that totally knocked my confidence down to nothing, and this just feels like another nail in the coffin. Maybe I am being overly dramatic but that's kind of how it feels.

 

Anyway I will let Lor deal with this as all I handle is the rp stuff anyway. Though I guess as Sitter I should be posting here. I am fine with whatever she wants to do about this. I would rather this issue had been resolved before we got an Aspie and I had told her something when she contacted me, but obviously that can't be changed now. I will say that if it's a huge issue I am fine with it being a choice and that Battle Tactics isn't a bad idea. Though I personally don't have the energy to write a new class or anything like that when I worked so hard on Battles Weaves and all the other stuff.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Jaydena

[Rasheta Ardashir]

Jade~

 

I don't remember receiving Pms from you about the WS. I remember exactly what I told you before. You asked me on Skype and I told you there what I just said again. Go check the WS thread and you'll see I was the last one to post there. If you want to show me proof of the PM's sent you can send them to me again and say "here you are I sent them." Did I reply? I don't remember its been so long ago now. That being said, its all done now and I will say it wasn't ever told me to that it was a rule. I did it again because you asked me too.

 

Also I looked all over the place and I can't find the rule posted anywhere. If it was such a big rule why isn't in any of the stickies here or on the WT website? We didn't make you look stupid Jade, we simply tried to clear something up. If you knew something was not right wouldn't you try and clear it up? Of course you would. I only told Kat to wait on the WS threads till we cleared up weather she had to do them or not. To me that's not undermining you at all. But we could have a different view of that.

 

Let me just stress here also that there is a topic about the Weapons score in the Hall of the Tower and it has been under discussion for weeks now.

 

For easy access to the thread here is the link. Weapons score thread

[Taymist]

I am done arguing about this honestly, your the bosses so just let me know what you decide. We have an Assistant Admin, the DL and the ADL arguing with us here. In my experience that's a lose lose situation for those wanting whatever it is they want. So I will just watch this from the sidelines and wait to find out the decision so that I can rp whatever needs rped. I have enough crap and drama in my life with my family with purposely arguing about this. *goes back to her rp corner*

 

I stated quite clearly that I was expressing a personal opinion on the WS issue, Jade. It was a simple matter of "this is how I see it." not a "this is what I expect you to do." Given that both Rashie and Elgee had queried this with me, it seemed reasonable to share my thoughts and to give input. As Rashie commented, there's no record of this "rule" to be found anywhere, not even on the PSW Staff board where the only thread was one you had posted on the topic of New WS Limits in the WT. That thread made no mention of a "must do" WS requirement for Green Sisters either.

 

Now, I appreciate that some things can easily become a matter of tradition and not necessarily be officially written down; that they become standard practice through useage. However, that also means that when someone queries them or the "rule" becomes a possible problem, they simply must be open to discussion and review as there's no black and white reference point. That's all that's happening here. A query was raised, clarification was asked for and a discussion was started.

 

To categorise this as an "argument", "drama" and/or "crap" because people are expressing opposing views is not helpful, in fact it's rather disrespectful to everyone involved, intentional or not. We all have a lot invested in the PSW and we all want to do what we think is best for our members, Groups, Ajahs etc. If you feel very strongly that this requirement is needed, then convince us. Present solid reasons why it should be so and try to change our minds. I think I'm safe in saying that Elgee will have the same view I do, which is that I'm open to having my mind changed and to considering all options when something like this comes up. There's never a foregone conclusion... there's no conspiracy of them and us. We're all Staff, we're on the same side and we're a team. That doesn't mean we always see eye to eye nor that we'll blindly agree with everything the other people say, but it does mean that we'll listen and consider before reaching a decision and that where possible we'll compromise. Removing yourself from such a discussion doesn't really help to represent your Ajah or your members views, does it? Less defensiveness, more communication.

 

You know as well as most of us that being Staff sometimes means taking decisions that some people won't like or agree with. But you should also know that when you've had to do that, it wasn't because you hadn't listened or because you'd made up your mind beforehand. Rather it's because, in the end, you did what you felt was best for the whole Group/Div/Org/Ajah whatever it happened to be as the buck ultimately stopped with you. The same is true for Elgee.

 

We have an Assistant Admin, the DL and the ADL arguing with us here. In my experience that's a lose lose situation for those wanting whatever it is they want.

 

That's the kind of "conspiracy theory" comment I'd expect from Andrea. It's not worthy of you.

 

As to the whole "undermining you" and "eating crow" stuff... no need for that at all. If the decision is taken to change the requirement, it's a simple matter of saying to Kat that the rules were changed following a Staff discussion and she'll no longer have to do that. Absolutely no need to turn it into anything else. It wouldn't be the first time I'd given someone advice on something that promptly got changed. It happens. I don't feel any need to apologise for it and neither should you. The discussions that lead up to these decisions are nobody else's business.

 

 

Now, Owen replied to my email this evening and here's what he had to say:

 

"As far as I recall, the WS5 was the WS that the GA only, were allowed to attain. The rest of the WT was only allowed WS3. This was obviously before all the ruckus with Andrea.

 

I think Jade may be mistaking that as I do not ever recall saying someone had to have a WS5 before they could join the GA. The only restriction that I recall on joining the GA was that you had to apply twice, other than that I do not know what is being referred to here.

 

However, if Jade has evidence to back up her claim, I will obviously look it over and respond, but as far as I can recall there never was a requirement of WS5 before you could join the GA."

[Jaydena]

I am done arguing about this honestly, your the bosses so just let me know what you decide. We have an Assistant Admin, the DL and the ADL arguing with us here. In my experience that's a lose lose situation for those wanting whatever it is they want. So I will just watch this from the sidelines and wait to find out the decision so that I can rp whatever needs rped. I have enough crap and drama in my life with my family with purposely arguing about this. *goes back to her rp corner*

 

I stated quite clearly that I was expressing a personal opinion on the WS issue, Jade. It was a simple matter of "this is how I see it." not a "this is what I expect you to do." Given that both Rashie and Elgee had queried this with me, it seemed reasonable to share my thoughts and to give input. As Rashie commented, there's no record of this "rule" to be found anywhere, not even on the PSW Staff board where the only thread was one you had posted on the topic of New WS Limits in the WT. That thread made no mention of a "must do" WS requirement for Green Sisters either.

 

Now, I appreciate that some things can easily become a matter of tradition and not necessarily be officially written down; that they become standard practice through useage. However, that also means that when someone queries them or the "rule" becomes a possible problem, they simply must be open to discussion and review as there's no black and white reference point. That's all that's happening here. A query was raised, clarification was asked for and a discussion was started.

 

To categorise this as an "argument", "drama" and/or "crap" because people are expressing opposing views is not helpful, in fact it's rather disrespectful to everyone involved, intentional or not. We all have a lot invested in the PSW and we all want to do what we think is best for our members, Groups, Ajahs etc. If you feel very strongly that this requirement is needed, then convince us. Present solid reasons why it should be so and try to change our minds. I think I'm safe in saying that Elgee will have the same view I do, which is that I'm open to having my mind changed and to considering all options when something like this comes up. There's never a foregone conclusion... there's no conspiracy of them and us. We're all Staff, we're on the same side and we're a team. That doesn't mean we always see eye to eye nor that we'll blindly agree with everything the other people say, but it does mean that we'll listen and consider before reaching a decision and that where possible we'll compromise. Removing yourself from such a discussion doesn't really help to represent your Ajah or your members views, does it? Less defensiveness, more communication.

 

You know as well as most of us that being Staff sometimes means taking decisions that some people won't like or agree with. But you should also know that when you've had to do that, it wasn't because you hadn't listened or because you'd made up your mind beforehand. Rather it's because, in the end, you did what you felt was best for the whole Group/Div/Org/Ajah whatever it happened to be as the buck ultimately stopped with you. The same is true for Elgee.

 

We have an Assistant Admin, the DL and the ADL arguing with us here. In my experience that's a lose lose situation for those wanting whatever it is they want.

 

That's the kind of "conspiracy theory" comment I'd expect from Andrea. It's not worthy of you.

 

As to the whole "undermining you" and "eating crow" stuff... no need for that at all. If the decision is taken to change the requirement, it's a simple matter of saying to Kat that the rules were changed following a Staff discussion and she'll no longer have to do that. Absolutely no need to turn it into anything else. It wouldn't be the first time I'd given someone advice on something that promptly got changed. It happens. I don't feel any need to apologise for it and neither should you. The discussions that lead up to these decisions are nobody else's business.

 

 

Now, Owen replied to my email this evening and here's what he had to say:

 

"As far as I recall, the WS5 was the WS that the GA only, were allowed to attain. The rest of the WT was only allowed WS3. This was obviously before all the ruckus with Andrea.

 

I think Jade may be mistaking that as I do not ever recall saying someone had to have a WS5 before they could join the GA. The only restriction that I recall on joining the GA was that you had to apply twice, other than that I do not know what is being referred to here.

 

However, if Jade has evidence to back up her claim, I will obviously look it over and respond, but as far as I can recall there never was a requirement of WS5 before you could join the GA."

All this important information was up on the old website that Andrea took down when she was fired. I have none of it, as she never gave it over, and that was what we always sent people too. If you look in our stickies you can see that the website is down and you can't access it. I will do some research when I can to find out if the old website, the old old one that Sirayn did is still up. Like I said I know it was on there and it was linked into the WT division site as some point. Either way I have no intention of spending tons of time defending something I am 100 percent sure happened, that's a waste of my time and everyone else's. Tay hun I love you but step back, you've been staff a long time now. When was the last time you saw someone defending something and having several members appear to be opposed and them get what they were asking for? I was staff for years and I can't remember it, that's not saying it didn't happen, I just can't remember any. That's not a conspiracy theory, that's simple fact from someone that was DL of the biggest division for 2 years. LOL honestly guys I am sick, I have been sick for two days, my two year old is sick and if I say crap etc, it's because that's about how I feel right now. Like I already said Lor can come in and post on this with her feelings but I am done arguing about it. My apologizes if I offended either you or Elgee with that stuff, it wasn't my intention at all as I love both of you dearly and you both have stood up for me when others didn't. *snuggles carefully and runs off coughing*

[U4ea]

My personal opinion is that there SHOULD be things that should remain a tradition, simply because they've been done in the past. When I was raised, I had to have a WS of 5 before I could even post my Oath Ceremony. I was denied, had to RP the Battle Weaves, the Longest Night AND the 2nd Petition. Now, all of that is optional because it's suddenly a detriment to becoming a Green. Not to sound too petty here, but... how would you feel in my shoes? Are the newer Greens better than I am, that I had to RP all of that before I could call myself a Green but they don't? And to answer your next question, yes, I really do feel that the result of not doing some of these things has resulted in folks who are not connected to the Ajah, but are still a part of it. My personal crap aside, though...

 

My issues are:

 

1- If we're afraid that asking people to RP is going to keep them from joining our Ajah... aren't they on the wrong end of the boards? Isn't RP'ing the whole purpose of joining RP side of DM? When you get right down to it, what you just said what was you're afraid that asking them to RP some more and be active is going to put someone off of being Green. If that's the case, then I don't want them. I'm not in the habit of chasing people and begging them to play and if just asking them to RP to a WS of 5 is enough to make them reconsider Ajahs, then they weren't that sure of their decision to begin with. Think about it this way, those of us who've done the extra requirements have not only become Greens in spite of the extra requirements, but have stuck around for YEARS (Almost seven for me, if you want to start talking numbers).

 

2- What's wrong with having a tradition and keeping it? You say that "because it's always been done" isn't a good enough reason, and I quite disagree with that. The Greens in the books have remained exactly the same since the Ajahs were created and I'd be willing to bet they would've had some level of traditional "greenishness classes" that had to be taken in order to properly join the Ajah. It's a tradition to put up a Christmas Tree, giving Christmas gifts and hunting Easter Eggs. Are you suddenly going to deprive your child of doing those things simply because you can't find a good reason to? Yes, I am a traditionalist. I think some things SHOULD REMAIN THE SAME regardless of the circumstances surrounding them. And I firmly believe that, after almost 7 years of RP'ing something, it should remain in place as a tradition of our Ajah.

 

3- After all, these ladies are SOLDIERS first. The argument I keep hearing is that the Greens would never have had a WS because they were too snobbish to ever imagine not being able to channel. However, I want to point out that one of the oaths is that you can't make a weapon OR KILL with the OP unless you or your warder are in mortal danger. Which would pretty much make a Green useless in a battle against trollocs or shadowspawn unless her warder threw himself in front of a sword somewhere. I think any good soldier would be trained in more than one area, as I've said before in the staff forums. Can you imagine sending a solider to Iraq only being trained on how to shoot a gun? Hell no! They're trained in hand to hand combat, daggers and heaven only knows what else before they step off the training field. And that's JUST the infantry guys! I fail to see how a Green, regardless of how kick butt she is with the OP, would consider walking into a battle with only one weapon in her arsenal. She'd make a crappy soldier that way.

 

 

 

 

All of that aside, my biggest problem is that, instead of discussing this, we're starting to quote each other and throw words around. I've read through this thread and, honestly, I'm just ticked off that some of the posts sound more like "I didn't say that," and "yeah, you not only said it, you did blah,blah,blah." I don't know about you, but I don't see where this is getting us anywhere and is, instead, only creating hostility. If we're going to start throwing titles around as reasons why things are being done a certain way, then I think the conversation is over. If it's not a decision we have control of, then please make the decision and tell us what we're supposed to do. And please, God, don't quote me and start picking apart anything I've said here. It's counterproductive and we need to have this issue ironed out before Kathleen goes nuts waiting on us.

[Jaydena]

My personal opinion is that there SHOULD be things that should remain a tradition, simply because they've been done in the past. When I was raised, I had to have a WS of 5 before I could even post my Oath Ceremony. I was denied, had to RP the Battle Weaves, the Longest Night AND the 2nd Petition. Now, all of that is optional because it's suddenly a detriment to becoming a Green. Not to sound too petty here, but... how would you feel in my shoes? Are the newer Greens better than I am, that I had to RP all of that before I could call myself a Green but they don't? And to answer your next question, yes, I really do feel that the result of not doing some of these things has resulted in folks who are not connected to the Ajah, but are still a part of it. My personal crap aside, though...

 

My issues are:

 

1- If we're afraid that asking people to RP is going to keep them from joining our Ajah... aren't they on the wrong end of the boards? Isn't RP'ing the whole purpose of joining RP side of DM? When you get right down to it, what you just said what was you're afraid that asking them to RP some more and be active is going to put someone off of being Green. If that's the case, then I don't want them. I'm not in the habit of chasing people and begging them to play and if just asking them to RP to a WS of 5 is enough to make them reconsider Ajahs, then they weren't that sure of their decision to begin with. Think about it this way, those of us who've done the extra requirements have not only become Greens in spite of the extra requirements, but have stuck around for YEARS (Almost seven for me, if you want to start talking numbers).

 

2- What's wrong with having a tradition and keeping it? You say that "because it's always been done" isn't a good enough reason, and I quite disagree with that. The Greens in the books have remained exactly the same since the Ajahs were created and I'd be willing to bet they would've had some level of traditional "greenishness classes" that had to be taken in order to properly join the Ajah. It's a tradition to put up a Christmas Tree, giving Christmas gifts and hunting Easter Eggs. Are you suddenly going to deprive your child of doing those things simply because you can't find a good reason to? Yes, I am a traditionalist. I think some things SHOULD REMAIN THE SAME regardless of the circumstances surrounding them. And I firmly believe that, after almost 7 years of RP'ing something, it should remain in place as a tradition of our Ajah.

 

3- After all, these ladies are SOLDIERS first. The argument I keep hearing is that the Greens would never have had a WS because they were too snobbish to ever imagine not being able to channel. However, I want to point out that one of the oaths is that you can't make a weapon OR KILL with the OP unless you or your warder are in mortal danger. Which would pretty much make a Green useless in a battle against trollocs or shadowspawn unless her warder threw himself in front of a sword somewhere. I think any good soldier would be trained in more than one area, as I've said before in the staff forums. Can you imagine sending a solider to Iraq only being trained on how to shoot a gun? Hell no! They're trained in hand to hand combat, daggers and heaven only knows what else before they step off the training field. And that's JUST the infantry guys! I fail to see how a Green, regardless of how kick butt she is with the OP, would consider walking into a battle with only one weapon in her arsenal. She'd make a crappy soldier that way.

 

 

 

 

All of that aside, my biggest problem is that, instead of discussing this, we're starting to quote each other and throw words around. I've read through this thread and, honestly, I'm just ticked off that some of the posts sound more like "I didn't say that," and "yeah, you not only said it, you did blah,blah,blah." I don't know about you, but I don't see where this is getting us anywhere and is, instead, only creating hostility. If we're going to start throwing titles around as reasons why things are being done a certain way, then I think the conversation is over. If it's not a decision we have control of, then please make the decision and tell us what we're supposed to do. And please, God, don't quote me and start picking apart anything I've said here. It's counterproductive and we need to have this issue ironed out before Kathleen goes nuts waiting on us.

 

Thank you Loraine, you said for much better and gracefully what I was trying to get across. Now I am going to go back to coughing and all that.

[Jaydena]

OMG how do I make this board reply without quoting?? *kicks at it*

[Elgee]

OMG how do I make this board reply without quoting?? *kicks at it*

 

Click on the large reply button right at the bottom of the page, instead of the smaller one that's sort of IN the last person's post. I keep forgetting that too

[Elgee]

Lor, my tone might have become a bit sarcastic, because I'm getting seriously frustrated here. My apologies for that. Let me try again.

 

Firstly, I usually quote people so that I can reply to what they actually said, not what I vaguely remember they said. It also helps keep the discussion on topic and should assure the other person(s) that I bothered to read what they said and am responding to their points. To me it's a sign of good manners.

 

Secondly, I have absolutely nothing against tradition, and I don't like change for the sake of change. But that isn't even the issue here.

 

Anyway, here is where my frustration comes in - it seems to me that you are not reading what I've said on the matter of Weapons Training for Aes Sedai. I, and a few other people, have stated our reasons why several times, but I cannot recall you responding to that. Let me try again.

 

1) Most people want to RP a character at the PSW because they like what they are in the books.

2) They come to the PSW expecting those types of characters (be it AS, Aiel, Warders, Kin, whatever) to be basically the same as in the books.

3) That is what we want to provide them with.

 

Now, what you have described below (and pardon me for quoting - I don't know how else to refer to your words other than retyping most of them) might sound logical, but ... that is not how it is in the books!

 

Here is what you said:

 

3- After all, these ladies are SOLDIERS first. The argument I keep hearing is that the Greens would never have had a WS because they were too snobbish to ever imagine not being able to channel. However, I want to point out that one of the oaths is that you can't make a weapon OR KILL with the OP unless you or your warder are in mortal danger. Which would pretty much make a Green useless in a battle against trollocs or shadowspawn unless her warder threw himself in front of a sword somewhere. I think any good soldier would be trained in more than one area, as I've said before in the staff forums. Can you imagine sending a solider to Iraq only being trained on how to shoot a gun? Hell no! They're trained in hand to hand combat, daggers and heaven only knows what else before they step off the training field. And that's JUST the infantry guys! I fail to see how a Green, regardless of how kick butt she is with the OP, would consider walking into a battle with only one weapon in her arsenal. She'd make a crappy soldier that way.

 

What soldiers who are sent to Iraq do has got NOTHING to do with how Greens in the WoT operate. We are talking about what IS, not what SHOULD be. We might as well say that Aes Sedai are stupid for taking the 3 Oaths - let's pretend they don't. Or most Queens/Lords were idiots for not immediately bowing down to the Dragon Reborn, so here at the PSW we change that - everyone falls down to worships him and live happily ever after.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

NOWHERE in the Books is it ever mentioned that Greens train with hand held weapons. We do see quite a few Greens (and other AS) in battle (Dumai Wells, for one) - they use the OP. Sure, maybe it would be smarter for them of all people to have that back-up available to them (which is why the Dragon insisted that the Asha'man train with weapons other than the OP) ... but they don't!

Somehow they manage to muddle through without that. And some die, or get captured, or injured.

 

Now, if some characters were smarter than others and thought "hey, let me try this thing that no-one else has yet" that is acceptable, as long as it doesn't cross the line into god-modding. But to change the modus operandi of a whole group and making it completely different from the Books? That to me is wrong.

 

I wanted to reply to another point you made, but I idiotically wiped that from the quoted bit and I've run out of time. I'll try to respond to that later.

 

Lor, I would appreciate if you would let me know if you understand the point I'm trying to make.

[Taymist]

Sorry to hear you're sick Jade, feel better soon. There's no need to defend anything. I'm quite prepared to take your word for it that the rule existed, we're simply pointing out that there's no available proof of it that can be quoted in a situation like this, which there really should be, and that none of us were aware of it. Obviously with boards/sites going down/vanishing, there was an oversight and transferring the information was missed... it happens. Not something to fret over. It just means that it needs dealt with now and as such, it's a good time to discuss it.

 

 

Lor, nothing I've said so far has been intended as "picking apart" and I haven't seen anyone throwing any titles around? Quotes simply make it easier to respond to specific points and express thoughts in an orderly fashion. So take this in the spirit in which it was intended...as a reply to the points raised.

 

 

1. Extra requirements for entry to an Ajah are totally fine. The issue is what those requirements should reasonably be. Nobody's afraid to ask members to RP more and stay active. That's something all of the Staff do constantly. There's a very distinct difference between that and forcing people to do a particular type of RP that may not interest them or they may not see as relevant. Personally, I'd at least give people an either/or choice. I wouldn't play a Green the way you see them for example. Not that there's anything wrong with different perspectives, but surely you can see that having no choice at all in which path you follow is excluding people and/or is off-putting and/or is restrictive on an individual's view of their character? It makes for a rather one dimensional Ajah. The PSW is restrictive enough in its rules so it's important to be as flexible as possible when it comes to what we impose on someone's character.

 

I quite agree that some people will do the requirement and remain active with the Ajah for a long time... but how many other members has the Ajah missed out on because of it?

 

 

2. There's nothing wrong with having traditions and keeping them.... when they work. Having always done something is still not a good enough reason in and of itself to keep doing it if there's an even better way to do it. If we all kept doing what's been done before, we'd never have any progress. Countering your examples of Christmas and Easter...it's akin to saying we've always hunted *insert any animal of choice* in this country for our medicines/for fun, never mind that they're endangered or that it's wiping out various species and effecting the ecosystem or that it may be cruel, let's just keep doing it because it's traditional. Umm... no. One set of traditions works and isn't harming anyone... the other is most definitely not working and is equally definitely harmful. Nobody can say that all traditions are good or that they're all bad.

 

3. Now this is where I'd disagree.

 

These ladies are not soldiers first in the Books. They, along with every woman who attains the shawl, are AES SEDAI first. They work, very hard, for many long years to get to that position. They don't join the Tower to become soldiers and learn how to fight with swords/knives etc., they join to learn how to wield the OP... regardless of their motivations for wanting to learn it and they are extremely single minded about it.

 

I don't think a Green would be too snobbish to imagine not being able to channel. On the contrary, I think all Sisters are super sensitive to the possibility of Stilling/Burning Out/being dosed with Forkroot/being Collared etc. etc. It's absolutely their worst nightmare.

 

There's also a reasonable possibility, even likelihood, that any Sister would walk into battle with a back up weapon although, I'd think that if she's IN a battle with trollocs and shadowspawn that immediately qualifies as mortal danger without any need of Warders throwing themselves anywhere. They're not going to sit down and have a cup of tea together after all. Dumai's Wells illustrated that perfectly. The Sisters had to be involved in the battle in order to channel against the enemy... standing at the sidelines just didn't work because they didn't feel threatened... but once they were involved, they channeled up a storm no bother, not a one of them used a weapon as I recall. Considering the Greens are "standing ready" for the Last Battle, they'll be in the thick of things, leading the Ajahs, not standing on the sidelines (if that were even a possible option) and should be able to channel without a problem.

 

Nobody's denying that an Aes Sedai can as easily be killed by a knife in the back as any normal person. As Jade mentioned, there will always be the chance that a Sister's Warders are disabled/killed and she will need to be able to defend herself. The problem with that point is this: if her Warders are killed or injured... she's already IN mortal danger and therefore, CAN use the OP.

 

The one situation where I'd absolutely agree with the point you make is if the Sister has no able bodied Warder available AND is physically unable to channel for some reason (as in Jade's case). However, that applies to any Sister of any Ajah... hence the WS limit of 5 which is the same for everyone. It gives them the option to defend themselves adequately without using the OP. But it's an individual choice... and whilst I'd expect it to be more commonly used amongst Green Sisters, I'm not hearing any good reasons why having WS 5 should be compulsory for ALL Greens. Each Sister serves in her own way, each has her strengths and weaknesses, and I very much doubt that every single Green is a natural born fighter with an inborn love of weapons considering how they almost all went to pieces when the Seanchan attacked the Tower....and how many of those were actually cited as reaching for a weapon?

 

 

 

I do think this topic is worth thrashing out as it prevents a similar confusion arising in future. Whatever we each believe about the Greens, this thread demonstrates that we don't all see them the same way, we each have our own interpretations and THAT is what RPing is all about... individuality and creativity... not coercing people down pre-selected paths.

 

 

Having said all that, none of it is immediately relevant to the situation with Kathleen which needs to be resolved and that's up to the WT Staff.

 

On a final note, I'm pretty sure we all understand what it's like having things changed when we don't agree with it. It happens constantly at DM with rank structures, requirements, off sites and so on. No matter how much of a tradition people see something as. The WT SG's requirements for N & A and the WK SG's requirements for gaining a wolf name are two instances that spring to my mind. The changes worked out fine in both cases, whether I liked them or not.

 

Anyway, I've said all I have to for the moment. Time I got some sleep.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

I don't have too much to add here because Tay and Elgee pretty much said it all.

 

My two cents on the WS, this is me as a Green not as an AGL, is that its too much. There are already five threads that they have to do. First petition, the walk through, the battle weaves, midnight vigil, and second petition. Adding in at least five more threads to do the WS maybe more is WAY to much. Its hard to get an active warder to help you and potentially you could be doing the WS for years, speaks from experience. Having them wait at Accepted level till they are done is just not fair as far as I see it. Which is why I keep saying it should be a suggestion.

[Jaydena]

I don't have too much to add here because Tay and Elgee pretty much said it all.

 

My two cents on the WS, this is me as a Green not as an AGL, is that its too much. There are already five threads that they have to do. First petition, the walk through, the battle weaves, midnight vigil, and second petition. Adding in at least five more threads to do the WS maybe more is WAY to much. Its hard to get an active warder to help you and potentially you could be doing the WS for years, speaks from experience. Having them wait at Accepted level till they are done is just not fair as far as I see it. Which is why I keep saying it should be a suggestion.

I don't feel hot enough to respond to everything that was said but I did want to hit this one point. Rasheta none of that is required. The only thing the Greens have that is required is the WS of 5 before raising. That's it. The other ones are not required, you just have to know IC that they were done. Do most people decide to for character development? Yes! Do they have to? No! It's totally up to the person, just as you decided not to rp through your Novicehood, and Acceptedhood, there are people that enjoy doing those very things you didn't want to. It all gets back to what Tay was saying earlier. Personal choice. Anyway personally I am fine with it being a choice because frankly I am done arguing and I can see where your all coming from even if I don't agree.

[U4ea]

Elgee, I understand. I just don't agree. I've responded many times until I just get tired of saying the same things over and over.

 

The long and short of it is very simple... you're making the decision. I'm not arguing about it. You want to drop it, so it's gone. *shrugs* Just don't expect me to be happy about it.