WS discussion

[Elgee]

Lor, what exactly do you disagree with?

 

And it's not GONE ... I'm thinking of making it a choice, not a mandatory thing.

[U4ea]

All of it? I think Greens SHOULD have an alternate way of protecting themselves. Mainly because I think they have a brain and wouldn't strap themselves to just one mode of doing that. Ducking their head in the sand doesn't seem to fit the creed of the Greens. Therefore, it makes sense for Greens to have a WS. I also think it should remain a requirement in order to join the Ajah. I don't see it as a detriment, especially considering that some of the most dedicated RP'ers this division has ever seen have been Green and completed them. I don't see where it's stopped anyone who really wanted to be Green. It shouldn't be a choice, but then I think the other three RP's that used to be requirements shouldn't be a choice, either. Most people decide to do it, but I've noticed that those that choose not to don't stick around very long. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

I respect that you disagree and I understand that, ultimately, it's your decision. I just am never going to be ok with it.

[Elgee]

Lor, saying you disagree with "all of it" isn't very helpful. Do you mean you don't like the way Robert Jordan wrote the Wheel of Time Series, or what? I've been stating that the Greens at the PSW should reflect a reasonable approximation of RJ's Greens, as he portrayed them in the WoT books, because that is what people expect when they join here - is that what you disagree with?

 

I really don't know how to reach some accommodation with you if you don't counter my arguments with something factual and logical.

 

Arguably the Greens could be better in battle if the OP wasn't their only available option. However in the books, that's how it is.

 

With regards to this comment of yours:

However, I want to point out that one of the oaths is that you can't make a weapon OR KILL with the OP unless you or your warder are in mortal danger. Which would pretty much make a Green useless in a battle against trollocs or shadowspawn unless her warder threw himself in front of a sword somewhere.

 

They oaths are:

"Under the Light, I vow not to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, the life of my Warder, or that of another Sister."

 

So firstly, an Aes Sedai can use the OP as a weapon at any form of Shadowspawn at any time.

Secondly, the mili-second an AS thinks that her life, that of her Warder or that of another Sister was in danger, she could "fire at will", so to speak. In a battle, only an idiot wouldn't think her life was in danger.

 

No group of characters in the books are perfect - they all have their negatives or limitations.

 

Anyway, all these facts have been mentioned before.

 

Now, you've all mentioned several conditions and RPs that Greens are supposed to do either before being raised to the Shawl, or shortly thereafter. What are they? Where can they be found? Jade mentioned that Arie had them on some site, but that it was deleted during the "breaking". That was almost 4 years ago now - has no one joined the Greens in that time, and done these "reqs"?

[U4ea]

I'm not being specific because I don't see the point in arguing about it. I'd like to take this to PM's before I say something you're going to misconstrue further, however. I realize the PM system is down, but once it isn't, I will be happy to have this conversation there. Part of my issue with this whole discussion is that most of this finger pointing should've been done in PM's and not on a public-enough forum like this. Again, I want to point out that there really isn't an accommodation you can reach about it, so trying to find one is pointless.

 

 

Now, as for the other req's that used to be required, they were as follows:

 

 

1- WS of 5, earned through cooperation and interaction with the WG.

2- Petition and denial (taking the oaths, petitioning the Greens, being denied in an ugly fit of temper)- which we still do.

3- Tour of the Green Halls (taking the newbie around and introducing her to the other Greens)- which we still do, but I believe is optional.

4- Battle Weaves (teaching the weaves Greens use in Battle)- which have become optional

5- the Longest Night (a night of reflection with a Green of your choice)- which has become optional

6- the 2nd Petition (which is accepted and comes after the battle weaves and Longest Night have been completed)- which has become optional

 

 

Since these have become optional, we've had 2 sisters raised to the Green Ajah.

1- Rasheta- I believe she finished the Battle Weaves and the Tour, but I don't believe there was ever a Longest Night or a Second Petition, and the WS score was never completed.

2- Kabria (Eqwina)- Who finished Battle Weaves and the Tour, but nothing else.

[Elgee]

I don't see what has to be discussed in private rather than in public, but since there's no sign of the PM system coming back up (and remaining up), you're welcome to email me at lg_curepipe@yahoo.com

[Jaydena]

Shall we take this to the Hall of Swords? All of us can see it and really it's not an Ajah wide thing since no one else is posting on it but the Sitters and Staff. Unless Kat wants to chip in now that she can see it?

[Rasheta Ardashir]

Jade I don't agree I think the choice to implement this should be and is an Ajah wide thing. Kat if you would like to post or not that choice is up to you. :)

 

Okay that being said staff have access to a backup of the old site, we looked through it and this is the only mention of any extra requirements, but it's not clear if it was ever implemented.

 

7th of August 2004: The extra Raising reqs for the Green Ajah

Message

Callie

Sister

 

 

 

Joined: 01 Jan 1970

Posts: 2210

Location: Jyväskylä, Finland

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:15 pm

I've had a read of the conversation. It's interested, and it's also reassuring to see that some ajahs are starting to catch up with the Greens.

 

My opinion on the extra requirements are mixed - while I can see the point of them having been imposed, I've always found felt the WS training part is decidedly un-Aes Sedai-like. I know that sounds a little hypocritical, coming from someone who's Aes Sedai has just reached a WS of 5, but when I started that training I only really wanted Sasra to learn to throw a knife, which I felt was a something that some women would know how to do, without having to be swordswomen.

 

Battle weaves, I think are an important part of being a battle sister, and should be mandatory for Greens, and optional for others. Although I've never had to do the Initiation thing, I think that too is a good idea, but I agree with several of those who have expressed an opinion that it should be kept as an IC thing, but optional as to whether a person RPs it or not. I think there'd be a very high proportion of people who do bother with it, just because it does look like a great RP opportunity.

 

Personally, I would like to see (when the ajahs have evened out even more) some kind of Ajah-specific RP for each ajah, that a character does at some point in their Acceptedhood, as a kind of "test" by the ajah that the Accepted is being "steered" towards the correct ajah - in the books, the Accepted didn't necessarily choose their ajah, they were pointed towards it subtly. If each Accepted had to RP something that was specific to their aspired Ajah, then it would reinforce their choice.

[Kathleen]

Honestly I was going to try to stay away from this, but because it is an important issue, not just for me but for the future Aspirants to the Ajah I feel I should say my thoughts.

 

I believe that they should not be mandatory to play out. I think they should be highly recommended like the other parts of being newly raised are. It has been said that it is not mandatory for you to play out your Initiation time, but your Character would have gone through it, and it is highly recommended that you play at least some of it, if for nothing else than the fun of it.

 

I can even see it being that in this Initiate time they are taken to the WY and are made to get a WS of 5. If this is possible to do without actually playing it out. I know that it is hard to know when other people are available, and it would be hard if the WY is as quiet as it is now or more so when others join to be able to find someone willing to play it out. Also I can see both sides of the arguments over 'would all Green AS train with weapons' and I can see where some would think the answer is no, not all. I do agree with this, but at the same time I understand if this gets changed so that it is assumed every green is made to get to a WS of 5 as an initiate, but doesn't necessarily have to play it out. I realize there is a whole set up of how to get your WS up so if this is not an option I understand that, but it was the only compromise I could think of.

 

No matter what the decision I will almost definitely RP it out, because I do like to RP and I like to RP this sort of character building sort of thing. I know not everyone does, and so I don't think we should hold people back too much if they don't want to do it. I like the idea of having the option to do it, and having it be something the character would have had to do, but not necessarily the person playing them.

[U4ea]

Just for the record, Rasheta, that post came AFTER I was raised to Aes Sedai and I'd already done all of those req's. So, they were implemented prior to 2004 (I remember them being in place when I joined Jan 1, 2004).

 

My vote is still for getting the WS to 5 and for it to be a requirement. However, I would like to discuss what the WS consists of. That's an argument for the Hall, I suppose.

[Jaydena]

Rasheta no one has backs up of the old site where this all happened at, when one of the old DL's got fired they all moved over there and rped there. We were not given any back ups off of that site and that board is the time period in which all these reqs went into place. Everything was lost and about a year ago they got rid of those boards so ya it's all gone now except for all the stuff that I archived from the greens board to our current archive boards. Assuming those are still active.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Jaydena

[Rasheta Ardashir]

So here's the problem. We have no evidence of a concrete nature that this was ever in place. We asked several of the older admins and they don't remember it having been in place, and the Green Ajah isn't really big enough to warrant these extra hoops that you are asking the new sisters to jump through.

 

 

My suggestion would be to start/keep a "traditions" thread so in the future you don't have staff in here like this again. We'll have the thread and what traditions are in place etc. That would be my suggestion for the future. For the present we are still going to check as many back up sites as we can in the hopes its mentioned somewhere. If not well Elgee and I will chat and go over your concerns and we'll then make an executive decision. We are really trying to get this sorted out.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Rasheta Ardashir

[Elgee]

Jade, yes we do

 

I've now gone back to about February 2004, and not found any mention of Weapons Training being mandatory for Greens.

 

I found this post in 2006, which says:

 

 

Jaydena

Banner Captain

 

Joined: 01 Jan 1970

Posts: 1792

 

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:32 am Well there is alot to know about being a member of the Green Ajah. This is one awesome ajah, with great characters and great members out of character. In the past we have had requirements placed upon us because our numbers were so large but these days we don't have to do those requirements. However you character will still have gone through them even if you have no rped them and she will remember going through them. Most of our members do go through with the requirements, first of all because it's great character developlement and angst which we are big fans of within this ajah and also because it counts toward the

points you need to become a Defender. This is a special rank within the Green Ajah and other ajahs would not know of this rank. The Green Ajah has some other special ranks and you can learn about them in this thread. Within the Green Ajah the Ajah Head is called the Captain General, the Sitters are called Banner Captains. Currently the Captain General is Jaydena Sedai and the Banner Captains are Jaydena, Aramina, and Kareja. If you need to contact me you can contact me at jaydenasedai[a]adelphia[.]net

 

The purpose of the Battle Ajah is to stand ready, we fight the ever vigilant shadow and prepare for the Last Battle, in this battle we will stand at the side and to the back of the Dragon Reborn and help to save the world. It is and ajah in which we understand what it is to love and to lose, we all have lost our friends in this battle and we tend to stick together through thick and thin. If you would like to join the green ajah, please check out this thread by Tiassale Sedai, our GLO. Aspiring Thread! So things about the great ajah you might want to know:

 

It seems we have no evidence that this was a Green requirement since at least 2006, possibly 2003, if I'm understanding Lor right? No one seems to have done the requirement in a very long time anyway.

 

As such, I think our time would be better spent on focussing on those things Greens are more likely to do, such as Battle and Defensive weaves, as well as Battle Tactics.

 

Lor posted some excellent suggestions in the discussion thread at the Hall of the Tower:

 

Perhaps Battle Weaves should be a part of the WS training for Greens? We only teach it after their first petition has been denied and, at least to my fuzzy head, it makes sense that it fits the idea of battle training.

 

Perhaps instead of a WEAPON SCORE for Aes Sedai, we could have something more in line with a "battle readiness score." Incorporate defensive weaves and some weapons training, but more survival skills (since we're talking about being in the woods surrounded by beasts who want to kill you and eat you for dinner) than weapon-based training.

 

I hope you don't mind me posting that here, Lor. Yours is the best suggestions I've seen so far. I've got a similar discussion thread at the Reds, where I copy some things and ask for their input.

[U4ea]

I don't mind at all, actually, as that was what I had in mind with what an Aes Sedai's WS stood for. Defense tactics, light hand-to-hand combat, battle weaves... I think those are more useful than sword forms to an Aes Sedai.

[Elgee]

Ok great!

 

Posting ideas here while they're flitting through my brain:

 

Possibilities:

 

Completely scrapping the Weapons Score thing, and replacing it with Battle Readiness Score, to include:

 

1) Defensive Weaves: Required Req RP for Accepted aspiring to the Greens

 

2) Battle Weaves: Required RP for new Greens

 

3) Defensive Tactics

 

4) Battle Tactics

 

5) Light Hand to Hand combat

• Making all or some of this mandatory would depend on us
• A) having or being able to create such a class
• B) somebody being willing to teach it

That's a rough idea - what do you guys think?

[Jaydena]

Ya have to say what really frustrates me here, is that someone who is one of the oldest rpers on this site, was DL for almost 2 years, a ADL before that, etc etc, word isn't good enough. I am personally fine with the changes you suggested but acting like there's no proof insults me. Sorry that really bothers me, maybe it's my own personal life right now, but my word should be good enough, I have zero reason to lie about anyting. Should it shock any of us that there is stuff missing, we have had DL after DL get fired. I was the first DL since I think Arette not to get fired. We have lost a lot of history and a lot of stuff. So yes that rule was till intact while I was Ajah Head, and in fact it currently is still intact. Obviously we are working on changing it but it has been intact.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

Ya have to say what really frustrates me here, is that someone who is one of the oldest rpers on this site, was DL for almost 2 years, a ADL before that, etc etc, word isn't good enough. I am personally fine with the changes you suggested but acting like there's no proof insults me. Sorry that really bothers me, maybe it's my own personal life right now, but my word should be good enough, I have zero reason to lie about anyting. Should it shock any of us that there is stuff missing, we have had DL after DL get fired. I was the first DL since I think Arette not to get fired. We have lost a lot of history and a lot of stuff. So yes that rule was till intact while I was Ajah Head, and in fact it currently is still intact. Obviously we are working on changing it but it has been intact.

 

Jade let me draw your attention to this via your own post in reference to this all being an intact rule.

 

In the past we have had requirements placed upon us because our numbers were so large but these days we don't have to do those requirements

 

You have just said back in 2006 they aren't required. Also this is a forum setting there needs to be some form of written record somewhere for later "generations" so they know what is what. There was never evidence of such that we could find. So no one's word is good enough. I always back up whatever i'm going to say if i'm making an argument. You just have to. On a different note, if you are having a hectic life maybe its better for you to step down/back from DM. Since it seems like its tough to keep up around here and emotions are running high for you.

 

 

Elgee *takes off ADL hat lol* I like what you came up with we just need someone whose got more time then me. *laughs and coughs while looking at Kat* to come up with kind of a class outline.

 

Do you want the Battle weaves to be site wide or just the defense weaves? I'm not sure from the post.

[U4ea]

Can we PLEASE STOP POINTING FINGERS AND MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS? At this point, I don't care whether it was a rule or not in 2006. I'm much more concerned with where we're going in 2010. It's THAT point we need to be discussing!

 

That outline looks good to me, Elgee. My only problem is that we were getting fussed at for requiring further RP's, but WS 1 on your list is a required req for Accepted aspiring to the Greens. If this is a concession, I'm cool with it. I just don't want it to come back and bite us in the backside later.

 

Also, please don't take offense, Kat, but I think outlines for these classes should be done in concession with other people, not the brainchild of just one person. Especially not someone who has only been on the RP report for the Ajah in question for a month. I would like US, as an Ajah, with our collective experience as RP'ers, as Greens, and as realists, to create these classes.

 

On a side note, perhaps could be our use for the Hall of Swords forums, henceforth? More of a Hall of Records for Ajah-specific classes?

[Elgee]

Those are just suggestions, for now - if you DO want Green Aspies to do some required RP, that seems to be the most logical one. Such a class would be quite interesting for most Accepted, I think, but especially for those aspiring to the Green.

 

Ama's thinking of bringing back the required Ajah RP, which is what made me think of one that would be applicable to the Greens.

 

A Note: If anyone (and this goes for all Ajahs, not just the Greens) want to make any RPs a requirement, then those have to be mentioned somewhere where everyone can see them. If they're applicable to novices or Accepted, then they have to go in the N&A requirements. We'll have to put them elsewhere for AS, but they must be readily available for any person who's interested in joining that Ajah, to see.

[Kathleen]

No offence taken Lor, I was actually going to suggest the same thing. I am glad that Rasheta thought of me, and enough of me, to suggest it but as I don't have any experience with it, having not done the RP training that would be going into the class like all of you have, I don't feel I'd be best for this task. I know you are all very busy, but each of you is much more qualified than I am at the moment. I could look into what was expected to have been taught before, but I'm sure I would end up asking you guys the questions anyway since most of the RPs you would have done, if you did them at all, would likely be long gone. I would look for them and make a class based on it, but I know I would ask you for what details you think would be important to learn and how they are done. I just don't have enough experience with it and there is no point in having me as the middle man if I'm just going to be getting the info from you. I think a collective idea, with thread made for all the people who should have say getting set up would be the best option, or someone who already knows what the Def. Weaves class would hold could write something up.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

Lor can I make a suggestion we close/lock this topic and move the discussion to another thread?

 

Kat battle weaves would be taught by one of us none of us have done defensive ones as a class that i'm aware of. *looks at Lor and Jade* Have you? I haven't so yeah I don't think your unqualified to teach such a class. :)

[Elgee]

Lor, I've just spent about 5 hours working on the "WS" system, and I hope I've come up with something that will please the majority. I'd appreciate it if you could have a look at it here, and let me know what you think. *Crosses fingers*

 

I'm leaving it up to you to decide if you want to make the new levels 1 to 4 mandatory in any way for your Greenies. If so, do you want them to take it as Accepted (they have to do 3 Reqs, and this could be fitted in there with 1 extra, or you could combine levels 1 and 2 to make 1 class); or you could make some of that mandatory for newly raised Greens - whatever is going to float your boat.

 

We just need to get this sorted out asap, as Mat is at a point in her work on the database where she needs something.

[U4ea]

I posted. :) The only thing that bugs me is the weaves in the middle of the tactics. :) Looks good, otherwise! :D

 

As for what's a req... Can we make at least BRS4 one? The other three can easily be Accepted classes and can be hedged if they're not taught outright. The Battle weaves, though... every Green really needs to know what those are. It's right up there with a Warder not knowing sword forms, in my opinion...

[Elgee]

Yeah my head was twirling trying to figure out the order of those. Here's my reasoning (which I don't think I followed through on completely ... duh me):

 

Accepted would be taking the 1st 3 or 4 classes.

The things they're most likely to learn and which would probably be taught to EVERY accepted would be:

1) Defensive weaving - basic (think wrapping someone in Air, etc - all AS know this)

2) Offensive weaving - basic (think fireballs, etc - all AS know this)

 

Next they might be taught tactics, but maybe not all would learn that ... not sure ... anyhoo:

3) Defensive tactics - basic

4) Offensive tactics - basic

 

I would be completely open to making level 5 Advanced Battle Weaves (open only to new Greens), and leaving "Basic Weapons Handling" out of the deal completely. That would mean truly moving away from weapons other than the OP, though. I'm happy with that, but you and minisamus would then have no official score for the training you did in that.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

I like what you got on the revise Elgee, but yeah Lor and minisamus put a lot of work into getting a higher WS. So unless they are okay with having all that work gone, we gotta give them something. I'm sorry that's not helpful. I'm still kind of relaxing from my hard quarter in school.

[Elgee]

Ok this might be totally whacked out, but what about making "Weapons proficiency" a Talent? That way, people who've worked hard to achieve it could still have it, and people other than Greens who want to do it, could still do it. It would also limit the amount of people who do it, and they would need to apply with strong motivation.