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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

We know the AS can't make a weapon for a "man" to kill another


firstfishman
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But what about a Maiden of the Spear? We know the AS can always find a way around their oaths, this seems like a very easy one to work out.

 

Also, maybe the AesSedai can make armour for the Army of Light and the Ashaman will make the weapons..

 

Can Egwene win over the White Cloaks with the promise of power wrought armour? Can Logain win over the Army of Light with the promise of power wrought weapons?

 

Just a thought... Discuss...

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But what about a Maiden of the Spear? We know the AS can always find a way around their oaths, this seems like a very easy one to work out.

Even if the Oath were interpreted that way, there's no guarantee such a weapon wouldn't eventually be used by a man.

Edited by Hybrid
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But what about a Maiden of the Spear? We know the AS can always find a way around their oaths, this seems like a very easy one to work out.

Even if the Oath were interpreted that way, there's no guarantee such a weapon wouldn't eventually be used by a man.

And yet, that wouldn't be who the weapon was made for. ;)

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But what about a Maiden of the Spear? We know the AS can always find a way around their oaths, this seems like a very easy one to work out.

Even if the Oath were interpreted that way, there's no guarantee such a weapon wouldn't eventually be used by a man.

And yet, that wouldn't be who the weapon was made for. ;)

That's irrelevant.

 

The Oath states: "Under the Light, I vow never to make a weapon for one man to kill another."

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And before the armor =/= weapon argument, armor doesn't seem to do much good when fireballs, lightning, balefire, etc. are being thrown around. It would probably do more harm (slowing the wearer down) than good.

 

The best way to not die from the power is to simply not get hit to begin with.

Edited by KefkaPalazzo
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If they can convince themselves that it will not be used for a man to kill another man they could do it. Such as it would likely be easy to convince themselves to make power-wrought weapons for the last battle, since that will be man vs shadowspawn.

That would be pretty unbelievable. Aes Sedai are stupid and shortsighted in general, but not to that extent.

 

EDIT: Looking back, I see that my original post was poorly worded (in fact, flat out wrong). What I meant to say was that I didn't believe that any Aes Sedai would be capable of such an interpretation because of the wording of the Oath.

Edited by Hybrid
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"Under the Light, I vow never to make a weapon for one man to kill another."

Not that they would do it, due to principal etc, but a way for them to go around this oath is to make a weapon for someone to use against shadowspawn, but give it to someone who would not necessarily use it exclusively against shadowspawn, just because it was used against another man, doesn't mean it's intended use is man vs man.

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"Under the Light, I vow never to make a weapon for one man to kill another."

Not that they would do it, due to principal etc, but a way for them to go around this oath is to make a weapon for someone to use against shadowspawn, but give it to someone who would not necessarily use it exclusively against shadowspawn, just because it was used against another man, doesn't mean it's intended use is man vs man.

They could give it to whoever they wanted once it is created. The question is whether they could convince themselves at the time of creation that the weapon they were making would never be used by men to kill men.

Edited by Hybrid
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TSR - Verin-Alanna let their warders make catapults (they don't get their hands dirty themselves) and then they make explosive projectiles to be chucked around. The explosiveness is added to the rock at the last moment just before it's hurled at SSpawn. Yes, Verin is BA but Alanna probably is not and neither would publicly violate the oaths in front of hundreds of people.

So they could get around this similarly at TG, or any instance where exclusively battling SSpawn. Whether they could do it against a mixed force or human DFs is a different matter. AS can kill DFs with the Power without a problem. But they probably cannot make weapons for the purpose.

They can also make weapons so long as they believe those will not be used to kill men by men - Siuan's knife of air.

Would AS define "man" in the oath as gender restricted?

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I think some Aes Sedai could make some spear for the Aiel. If the Aiel don't carry swords, it's because it is only made for killing people. Other weapons (knife, daggers and spears) can be used to put food in the cookpot. If the aes Sedai don't consider the Aiel as savage and kill-em-all-coz-they-are-Wetlanders, and if she understand their beliefs, then she could be able to create some power-wrought weapon if she consider helping them find food in the Waste. But as Hybrid states,

The question is whether they could convince themselves at the time of creation that the weapon they were making would never be used by men to kill men.
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I think this actually comes down to the consensus understanding of the Oath. Yes, the words are limited and open to interpretation, but the burden that comes with the Oath has been analyzed and debated, and perhaps been nudged against in times of need, for centuries. AS learn the intricacies of "what the Oath means" as Accepted, and because of the way the Oath Rod works they're basically bound by what they've come to understand - which is the consensus viewpoint on it. At the present, I don't think that allows much wiggle-room: any object whose primary function is "deadly weapon" is outside the lines, unless it's something like the catapult ammunition (which is guaranteed never to be used outside of the context of killing Shadowspawn by virtue of, well, self-destructing.) I also think the term "man" is gender-neutral atm, but I think they'd be prevented from making spears (for instance) before even reaching that hurdle.

 

Power-wrought armor is another story entirely, but since Warders get the best equipment the Tower can provide already (including their Power-enhanced cloaks,) and we don't see them getting any armor, I think it's safe to assume the current AS just can't do it (super-thin cuendillar armor is another story, now that that's possible again, but who knows how heavy it would be? I'd be surprised if it were viable and they didn't test it out.)

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For the catapult, if Alanna first considered it using the Power as a Weapon/making a weapon for one man to kill another (as two men were using it to launch the stone) if Verin (not technically bound by the Oaths) used it first, making the stone explode, could it change Alanna's vision of this change and be able to make th estone explode?

 

I ask this on a theoritical point of view. If a sister believe something that is against the three Oaths, and if another sister don't, if the latter act, would the former also be able to act?

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For the catapult, if Alanna first considered it using the Power as a Weapon/making a weapon for one man to kill another (as two men were using it to launch the stone) if Verin (not technically bound by the Oaths) used it first, making the stone explode, could it change Alanna's vision of this change and be able to make th estone explode?

 

I ask this on a theoritical point of view. If a sister believe something that is against the three Oaths, and if another sister don't, if the latter act, would the former also be able to act?

 

On the first point, probably not. If anything, if it were obvious enough, IMO it would make the second AS suspicious of the first being black.

 

The situation you bring up in your second question came up in LoC. I can't remember which one dropped out first, but several of Elaida's AS who were "punishing" Rand daily had to stop because they had felt that they had crossed the line from discipline/justice into torture. They actually debated this with the other Reds who felt it was still just "corporal punishment" and could continue beating him with the Power - the fact that the others felt it was OK didn't make it OK, if anything AS seem to follow momentum toward the side of caution (and those Reds were fanatic Elaida supporters, too.)

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In fact, both points were related. I was thinking of the influence one Aes Sedai can have on another one about what the Oaths entails. As every Aes Sedai has her own interpretation, could it be influenced by their deference system? Or by what they belive and think? By discussion? (thanks for the LoC situation, I didn't remembered that. Nice quote :) )

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Maria from Team Jordan, stated that Egwene's about take on the Oaths was not induced by Halima.

 

 

Luckers: Was Egwene's 180 on the issue of the Oath Rod a natural change of mind, or was she influenced to it by Halima?

Maria: That was Egwene, influenced by Siuan, doing her best to be the best Aes Sedai EVAR.

 

Source: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_77f73f4zfj

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They could give it to whoever they wanted once it is created. The question is whether they could convince themselves at the time of creation that the weapon they were making would never be used by men to kill men.

Missing my point, they may see a loophole being, the weapon was intended to be used against shadowspawn, just on the side it may be used against a man. They didn't make it to be used against man, but knew it was going to be used against man. But it doesn't matter cause they wouldn't do that anyway.

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The intent of the oaths doesn't seem to bind the AS very much at all. If that were so, they'd have to convince themselves they weren't being deceptive before they could manipulate the truth. Outright lying, manipulating the truth, the intent is the same, to deceive. That's a flagrant violation of the spirit of the oath. I don't see why the same doesn't apply to the other oaths. Aes Sedai know perfectly well they're lying when they obfuscate, so long as each word can be perceived as truth, they have no problem with dishonesty, I don't see why telling themselves that creating weapons to kill shadow spawn would give them pause in the least little bit.

 

Even if they thought someone else might use it to kill men. After all, THEY didn't create it for that purpose, someone else used it for that, how is that different from the lying? THEY didn't lie, someone else made assumptions.

Edited by Dbob
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The intent of the oaths doesn't seem to bind the AS very much at all. If that were so, they'd have to convince themselves they weren't being deceptive before they could manipulate the truth. Outright lying, manipulating the truth, the intent is the same, to deceive. That's a flagrant violation of the spirit of the oath. I don't see why the same doesn't apply to the other oaths. Aes Sedai know perfectly well they're lying when they obfuscate, so long as each word can be perceived as truth, they have no problem with dishonesty, I don't see why telling themselves that creating weapons to kill shadow spawn would give them pause in the least little bit.

 

Even if they thought someone else might use it to kill men. After all, THEY didn't create it for that purpose, someone else used it for that, how is that different from the lying? THEY didn't lie, someone else made assumptions.

 

The First Oath is well-known and well-understood, however. They are actually incapable of speaking a word they know not to be true, if it's meant to be taken as truth (someone somewhere asked about sarcasm and indefinite exaggeration for effect, and both were found to be OK so long as their intent was clear.) The Oath doesn't prevent them from speaking a word that is true today but that might be inaccurate tomorrow, for instance "Hey, it's Tuesday!" In contrast, the weapon Oath seems to be forward-looking. If they want to make a sword as a mantle-piece that *could* be used tomorrow to kill a farmer, they wouldn't be able to do it. The act of speaking is a state-based momentary check, the creation of a weapon is categorical.

 

The only cause for this distinction, as far as I can tell, is the way the AS perceive their Oaths. They are self-imposed on an individual level, so it comes down to what each AS believes. So far as we have seen, all non-Black AS believe that irony (saying a literally true thing while implying something else) is not lying, so it's OK. Creating any weapon violates the Oath, so it's not. If they believed differently, they'd be able to behave differently. It's not the words of the Oath, but their common interpretation that they are forced to follow... and I think it's been adequately explained in the series the debates that went into crafting those interpretations.

 

[Edit:] Also, the argument "well, what if an Aes Sedai chose to interpret her oaths differently" is valid, the training regimen for novices and Accepted at the Tower is all about indoctrination. They teach classes on "what it means to be Aes Sedai" in which there are right answers and wrong answers. An Accepted wouldn't be raised if she held and displayed a radical re-interpretation of the Oaths and AS customs, and after the ego-stripping and homogenization they all go through a girl is more likely to drop out or be expelled than keep such "disloyal" notions a secret while succeeding at Tower training, all in the hope of getting around the Oaths "some day". Maybe a DF could pull this off... but until recently, the Tower only took in really young girls. A 15-year-old channeling DF with counter-interrogation training seems a little far-fetched to me.

Edited by Swithin
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