An Old Theory Reborn

[Luckers]

Ok, this thread can be for the general discussion of 'how the frak they gonne handle Graendal'?? As Barid points out in another thread...

 

But he is at his best (or worst). Knowledge, a brilliant plan, the motivation. And yet she manages to outsmart him.

 

thats why I fear for Rand and co. now.

 

But I wanna start with an old favourite of mine...

 

Aviendha Will Kill Graendal

 

Despite my shiny title this is based alot on nostalgia--the theory probably had more going for it back when Aviendha and Graendal were both in Arad Domon. Aviendha (along with all the Aiel) were working to undo what Graendal had wrought there, and that was the basis of their conflict.

 

However, that being said, Graendal's mission to cause Rand pain of the heart is reason for her to look to Aviendha should she learn of her, and Aviendha did way that she'd was looking forward to meeting up with Rand as a Wise One and an equal. I also still think it quite plausible that Graendal has something to do with Elayne's silence in Caemlyn (alternatively that could be Duhara and the Black Sisters work, or something else entirely). So whilst Graendal is currently eyeing Nynaeve and Min, I still think this point can be used to suggest Aviendha.

 

A Few Points to Consider

 

1. Graendal has a very weak angreal, Aviendha a strong one, that likely puts them very near in strength.

 

2. Graendal has access to the True Power, Aviendha has a skill with ter'angreal and is off to a place where there are ter'angreal in abundence. Advantages are matched, to some degree.

 

3. From the psychological element, Aviendha would probably be the most difficult for Graendal to predict--an Aiel influenced by Wetlander philosophies? Wise One's are made to look outside the box in becoming Wise Ones, and Aviendha has taken this further than the others...

 

But the main reason I love this thought is that Aviendha hasn't really done much--even Min has played an integral role with Rand and looks to be doing the leg work in figuring out how to defeat the Dark One, but Aviendha has played a little bit of the tag along. And she is one of Rand's ladies--it's time for her to kick some major butt--and I do think it will be kicking butt. Aviendha is a warrior at heart, even as a Wise One.

 

 

>

 

:)

[GB]

yeah i kind of agree its only fitting for avi to kill graendal

 

nyn will kick moghedien's butt

egwene -mesaana

 

moiraine- lanfear/cydane hopefully

[Barid Bel Medar]

Whooo, I am mentioned !!

 

haha, I do like this theory aswell. It fits in for me. Ill add a few extra points.

 

1. So Graendal is eyeing Nynaeve and Min, shes pretty annoyed at them. Now Avi has gone off to the columns, however, i think its safe to say that she is comming back to Rand. Therefore, while Graendal will be focused on Min/Nyn. She (as far as I know) doesnt know anything about Avi. Thus, she couldnt really plan for an Avi attack.

 

2. It seems a bit redundant Avi going to Rhuidean only for the WO test. I mean, yeah, she has to at some point, but why now? My interpretation of her in tGS makes the trip to Rhuiedan look important. WE already know all the stuff thats in the columns from Rand. And I doubt she will miraculously be the first person to connect the "singing" with the tinkers. Sending her to Rhuidean - the biggest cache of ter'angreal in the world - wiht her shiny new ability to figure out what they are used for seems too much of a coincidence for me. She will find something, and its likely that something will be a suprise, suprise enough to suprise the un-suprisable Graendal.

 

3. It would be sweet to see her get some credit. She has done relatively little, while Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene get all the credit. Avi deserves it.

 

4. It has been suggested that Cadsuane will do it from the "end of a ledgend" title. I see a few problems. If she is dead, how can she kill Graendal? True, the most obvious is that she sacrifices herself to kill her, but I doubt that will happen. Its too much of a repeat of Moiraine. Rand hates the advisor - he finally comes to terms and likes the advisor - they are attacked by Forsaken - advisor sacrifices herself to save everyone - Rand realises he actually likes advisor.

[Duskfire]

i like the idea of Perrin saving Rand from Graendal and killing her :P Probably somehow using TAR. Aviendah hasn't done much sure, but Perrin is a ta`veren and its about time him and Mat got some Chosen killing action going.

[TreeJoe]

Love the idea of Aviendha coming back some with bad-ass weaponry ter'angreal from Rhuidean.

 

I don't think it's possible, but maybe she could find a set of MATCHING jeweled ter'angreal jewelry, so that we don't have to read 19 pages about how it's difficult for her to match her silk clothing to the jewelry, and how she shouldn't be wearing or enjoying the silk anyway and that she's becoming soft like a wetlander....

[cjwolff24]

One thing that's not being mentioned is the powers gifted to those who go through Rhuidean. I think Aviendah has a much larger role in this book and for the final battle. Remember Moraine essentially knew when and how she was going to "die" (fighting Lanfear in AFoH). I think part of going through the rings is to learn about the past (i.e. from Rand's POV), the present and the future. Avi will learn something of importance from Rhuidean. Also, I don't think Min, Avi, or Elayne die in this series. There is a vision I believe that has 3 women looking down over a funeral pyre (intention is it's Rand sacrificing himself to seal the Dark One).

 

Also there's been no talk about Fain being involved in sealing the dark one's prison. I see this much like Gollum's role in Lord of the Rings. He's the unwitting hero who finally is able to destroy the Evil Lord through his own greed. If the Dark One can undo anything the Creator makes (i.e. a bore to seal his prison) then it may take something supernatural like Rand luring Fain into the bore since the DO and Mordeth's power seem to despise and consume one another (from cleansing of the taint chapters). Thoughts?

[Barid Bel Medar]

One thing that's not being mentioned is the powers gifted to those who go through Rhuidean. I think Aviendah has a much larger role in this book and for the final battle. Remember Moraine essentially knew when and how she was going to "die" (fighting Lanfear in AFoH). I think part of going through the rings is to learn about the past (i.e. from Rand's POV), the present and the future. Avi will learn something of importance from Rhuidean. Also, I don't think Min, Avi, or Elayne die in this series. There is a vision I believe that has 3 women looking down over a funeral pyre (intention is it's Rand sacrificing himself to seal the Dark One).

 

Also there's been no talk about Fain being involved in sealing the dark one's prison. I see this much like Gollum's role in Lord of the Rings. He's the unwitting hero who finally is able to destroy the Evil Lord through his own greed. If the Dark One can undo anything the Creator makes (i.e. a bore to seal his prison) then it may take something supernatural like Rand luring Fain into the bore since the DO and Mordeth's power seem to despise and consume one another (from cleansing of the taint chapters). Thoughts?

 

 

First off, there are two different tests of Rhuidean. The first one is when you want to become a WO apprentice. That is the Rings which Moiraine went through. These show the possiblilies of the womans life. Similar to what happened to Mat and Rand in tGH. Aviendha has already been through the rings, same time Rand does, in tSR.

 

The second is when you become a WO, that is the columns, the ones Rand went through in tSR. This shows the Aiel history through the eyes of ancestors. Thats the one she is going trhough now.

 

SO she wont gain anything really from going trhough the columns. Everyhting in there she already knows basically, from Rand. Technically, Aviendhas trip is useless as far as the test itself. However, as I stated above, she may find some sweet Ter'angreal.

 

As to the 2nd point. There has been alot of fain/bore theories. I cannot point you to an exact thread, but ask a moderator or do a search of the database, it will definitely pop up.

 

 

I see you are new also, welcome to the forums. Enjoy your stay.

[jemron]

Cool idea. Maybe she'll show up to save the day in the nick o' time, causing Elayne to feel that "relief" that Rand sensed in TGS.

 

I have to admit, it makes me kinda mad that Luckers is the only one who can start posts here, and he does it for his own theories...

 

(not really, don't be angry)

[cjwolff24]

One thing that's not being mentioned is the powers gifted to those who go through Rhuidean. I think Aviendah has a much larger role in this book and for the final battle. Remember Moraine essentially knew when and how she was going to "die" (fighting Lanfear in AFoH). I think part of going through the rings is to learn about the past (i.e. from Rand's POV), the present and the future. Avi will learn something of importance from Rhuidean. Also, I don't think Min, Avi, or Elayne die in this series. There is a vision I believe that has 3 women looking down over a funeral pyre (intention is it's Rand sacrificing himself to seal the Dark One).

 

Also there's been no talk about Fain being involved in sealing the dark one's prison. I see this much like Gollum's role in Lord of the Rings. He's the unwitting hero who finally is able to destroy the Evil Lord through his own greed. If the Dark One can undo anything the Creator makes (i.e. a bore to seal his prison) then it may take something supernatural like Rand luring Fain into the bore since the DO and Mordeth's power seem to despise and consume one another (from cleansing of the taint chapters). Thoughts?

 

 

First off, there are two different tests of Rhuidean. The first one is when you want to become a WO apprentice. That is the Rings which Moiraine went through. These show the possiblilies of the womans life. Similar to what happened to Mat and Rand in tGH. Aviendha has already been through the rings, same time Rand does, in tSR.

 

The second is when you become a WO, that is the columns, the ones Rand went through in tSR. This shows the Aiel history through the eyes of ancestors. Thats the one she is going trhough now.

 

SO she wont gain anything really from going trhough the columns. Everyhting in there she already knows basically, from Rand. Technically, Aviendhas trip is useless as far as the test itself. However, as I stated above, she may find some sweet Ter'angreal.

 

As to the 2nd point. There has been alot of fain/bore theories. I cannot point you to an exact thread, but ask a moderator or do a search of the database, it will definitely pop up.

 

 

I see you are new also, welcome to the forums. Enjoy your stay.

 

Thank you for that!:) I have been coming on to this site for over a year now, but first time posting. But do we know for certain that a WO sees the same things that Rand saw in the columns? I thought I remember Brandon mentioning something about it's significance last year at a tGS book signing I was at. Where I'm not sure about that part of it, I would tend to agree with you the cache of ter'angreal will surely come into play. Maybe that's the "significance" Brandon talked about.?

[Sharaman]

Every Aiel sees the stuff that happened to his/ her specific ancestors. So it'd be different except for siblings, I'd guess.

[jemron]

Every Aiel sees the stuff that happened to his/ her specific ancestors. So it'd be different except for siblings, I'd guess.

 

Correction, every Aiel who enters and survives sees through the eyes of their own ancestors up to the "sharing of water." Then they all see the same history from that point forward (or, should I say, "from that point back"?)

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all...

The major hole in this idea is the fact that Moiraine, while in Rhuidean, had the terangreal and angreal and whatever else may be carted off to the White Tower in Kaderes old wagon trains. Unless you dont believe Moiraine got ALL the terangreals etc.

 

By the way, weve NOT heard at all about that particular wagon load of VERY desireable things....do we know where it is or what became of it?

[Stevros]

Hi all...

The major hole in this idea is the fact that Moiraine, while in Rhuidean, had the terangreal and angreal and whatever else may be carted off to the White Tower in Kaderes old wagon trains. Unless you dont believe Moiraine got ALL the terangreals etc.

 

By the way, weve NOT heard at all about that particular wagon load of VERY desireable things....do we know where it is or what became of it?

 

 

From what I understood (I may be remembering wrong) Moraine took what she was able to using Kadere's wagons however that was not all of the ter'angreal.

[Capering Capers]

On 'how the frak they gonne handle Graendal'

 

 

I like the idea of Aviendha dealing with Graendal and agree with Luckers points that she might be a match for Graendal. However, for it to actually happen they will have to meet somehow and Graendal seems adverse to hands-on work. Methinks she'd rather use a proxy who is using a pawn to make a servant poison the soup of the horsemaster so... well anyway you get my point.

 

 

So my feeling is that Graendal might get outsmarted by Rand. she does not know of his epiphany on the mountaintop and may bank on and work from the basis that Rand is slightly unstable/not right in the head. Thus her manipulations are off-key, fail and the manipulator gets manipulated by the, now righteous and insightful, tranquil, Rand Al'Boedha. This has karmic charm since it will be the determination and strength gained from true inner conviction (i.e. Rand;s reasons why he does his duty, also being Rand being strong rather than hard) that bring down the hedonistic mind-game playing Graendal.

 

Being outsmarted by Rand may lead Graendal to an unfortunate end at the hands of his women...

[Random Man]

Hi all...

The major hole in this idea is the fact that Moiraine, while in Rhuidean, had the terangreal and angreal and whatever else may be carted off to the White Tower in Kaderes old wagon trains. Unless you dont believe Moiraine got ALL the terangreals etc.

 

By the way, weve NOT heard at all about that particular wagon load of VERY desireable things....do we know where it is or what became of it?

 

 

From what I understood (I may be remembering wrong) Moraine took what she was able to using Kadere's wagons however that was not all of the ter'angreal.

That's right, I think. There was a ton of stuff in Rhuidean, plus there was all the stuff that looked broken after Rand's fight with Asmo. The wagon's still sitting in Cairhien and is warded and guarded.

 

EDIT: and yes, we haven't heard a word of Kadere's wagons in the story, only RJ's comment that it's still there.

[Sharaman]

If Graendal's wandered off to Seanchan or parts West (as she seemed to), it would require some complicated plot element to get her to Rhuidean.

(Or Avi Travels to Seanchan, which seems very unlikely).

Assume G goes to Rhuidean, for whatever reason.

Another lot are heading for Rhuidean - Benduin and the Shaido WOs. BTW, they know Graendal by sight and power-level.

What odds on a three-way confrontation?

[mossman87]

Hi all...

The major hole in this idea is the fact that Moiraine, while in Rhuidean, had the terangreal and angreal and whatever else may be carted off to the White Tower in Kaderes old wagon trains. Unless you dont believe Moiraine got ALL the terangreals etc.

 

By the way, weve NOT heard at all about that particular wagon load of VERY desireable things....do we know where it is or what became of it?

 

They're still in Cairhien IIRC.

[mossman87]

If Graendal's wandered off to Seanchan or parts West (as she seemed to), it would require some complicated plot element to get her to Rhuidean.

(Or Avi Travels to Seanchan, which seems very unlikely).

Assume G goes to Rhuidean, for whatever reason.

Another lot are heading for Rhuidean - Benduin and the Shaido WOs. BTW, they know Graendal by sight and power-level.

What odds on a three-way confrontation?

 

I thought her first gateway was to somewhere to the west (since it was morning there), but the second gateway that she made her escape in was right by the Burrow? I've only read the prologue once though.

[Sharaman]

Yes that was her emergency exit.

But it still requires some complicated reason for her to head to Rhuidean.

She'd go to the Western haven if she wanted to hide out; she appears to be wanting to target people close to Rand (Nyn-Min since she's "seen" them).

Does she know much about Rhuidean?

Mind I'm not saying she won't go there - just that she needs a good reason of some description.

[yoniy0]

Does Aviendha still have that cool knife thingy that hides you from the Shadow, or did she leave it with Elayne? Whoever possesses it will have an advantage over Graendal, assuming it works against Forsaken (as per Aviendha's 'educated guess', if memory serves).

[Lynander]

Unless I'm mistaken, Rand and co. have moved since Avi has left. Wouldn't that make it pretty hard (and take some time) to find Rand and co? Regardless, I see Avi heading to Elayne first anyways - and saving the day. Possibly helping Mat's quest with a ter'angeral or something of that nature.

 

I also see Avi being saved for Cyndine's downfall. Unless I'm mistaken, she was the one that Lanfear tortured just before she went into the doorway to the Finns. Maybe Cyndine has something to do with whatever is happening to Elayne (after she goes off on a jealous rage about finding who the father of the twins really are.)

[Luckers]

A thought occurs to me--what if Aviendha encounters Graendal in her Rhuidean Flashback like Rand encountered Mierin? Could be interesting.

 

Jemron, you can request threads for your own theories. I'm going to be fairly relaxed about that for the prologue release, though I will try for some universality.

[Khazul]

Rand encountered Mierin in his flashback? I can't say that I remember that..

[Charlz Guybon]

A thought occurs to me--what if Aviendha encounters Graendal in her Rhuidean Flashback like Rand encountered Mierin? Could be interesting.

 

Jemron, you can request threads for your own theories. I'm going to be fairly relaxed about that for the prologue release, though I will try for some universality.

She'll encounter Merin as well, everyone remembers the same things that happened before the sharing of the water.

[Random Man]

Rand encountered Mierin in his flashback? I can't say that I remember that..

He saw the creation of the Bore and the destruction of the Sharom, and earlier (later in chronology) he saw one of his kinsfolk lynched for serving Lanfear after the sealing, IIRC.