Does Mazrim Taim have the Fat Little Man an'greal?

[The Fisher King]

If so, how?

If so, what are the possible ramifications of this?

If not, where is it and who has it?

 

***A little below I got to rambling, and I sort of got off on a ''Mazrim Taim Analysis Thread'' rant - so I figure I'll repost it here***:

 

Well, Ive been thinking that it is more and more likely lately. Mainly because of Taim's colossal arrogance. The scene at the end of KOD in particular was a bit Over-The-Top.

 

Brilliant - and chilling, but a bit much. ... Even though I get that when it comes to the arrogance, well, that just who Mazrim Taim is. Its just how the guy rolls.

 

But, thinking about him more, I ask myself: WHY?

 

Why, or for what REASON does this guy have to be so arrogant. So confident. So SURE of himself.

 

We know hes not a Forsaken. Hes not the only strong male channeler.

 

The Dragon Reborn and Logain Ablar (well, Logain definitely before his Gentling/Healing) are his equals. Heck, he oversees an entire ''TOWER'' of strong male channelers.

 

So, I ask, maybe hes so cocky because he has a Forsaken BACKING him.

 

But, there are plenty of characters (Ask Elaida, Alvarin, Suroth or a host of others) just how many guarantees come with having a Forsaken Backer.

 

So, I guess, it just seems like to be so darn cocky he just HAS to have an ace up his sleeve......or a Fat Little Man angreal ;)

 

I guess it just brings us right back to the same question regarding Mazrim Taim that so many have been asking for so many years:

 

''Just what is UP with this guy???!''

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Fish

[Duskfire]

Its possible. We know Rand was unable to find it in the chaos after Dumai Wells. Taim most likely sent Gedwyn to look for it too, who was also unable to find it. So we know Taim was also looking for it, and in theory could have sent a few people to do so. One of the Forsaken may also have gotten their hands on it, but that is more unlikely (although I like the idea of Demandred having it.)

 

As for the ramficiations, it would make Taim stronger then Logain who seemed to be on a similar level to him. Maybe even as strong as Rand, although its been a while since we have seen a direct comparisons of their One Power strength.

[The Fisher King]

Its possible. We know Rand was unable to find it in the chaos after Dumai Wells. Taim most likely sent Gedwyn to look for it too, who was also unable to find it. So we know Taim was also looking for it, and in theory could have sent a few people to do so. One of the Forsaken may also have gotten their hands on it, but that is more unlikely (although I like the idea of Demandred having it.)

 

As for the ramficiations, it would make Taim stronger then Logain who seemed to be on a similar level to him. Maybe even as strong as Rand, although its been a while since we have seen a direct comparisons of their One Power strength.

 

Well, Ive been thinking that it is more and more likely lately. Mainly because of Taim's colossal arrogance. The scene at the end of KOD in particular was a bit Over-The-Top.

 

Brilliant - and chilling, but a bit much. ... Even though I get that when it comes to the arrogance, well, that just who Mazrim Taim is. Its just how the guy rolls.

 

But, thinking about him more, I ask myself: WHY?

 

Why, or for what REASON does this guy have to be so arrogant. So confident. So SURE of himself.

 

We know hes not a Forsaken. Hes not the only strong male channeler.

 

The Dragon Reborn and Logain Ablar are his equals. Heck, he oversees an entire ''TOWER'' of strong male channelers.

 

So, I ask, maybe hes so cocky because he has a Forsaken BACKING him.

 

But, there are plenty of characters (Ask Elaida, Alvarin, Suroth or a host of others) just how many guarantees come with having a Forsaken Backer.

 

I guess it just brings us right back to the same question regarding Mazrim Taim that so many have been asking for so many years:

 

''Just what is UP with this guy???!''

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Fish

[Duskfire]

I dont think his arrogance is neccessarily a sign of much. There are plenty of arrogant characters, some of which have no connection to the Shadow. Logain is also quite arrogant; we just don't see it as much because he isn't busy laughing and talking about the Lord of Chaos. Then you have most of the Aes Sedai, the Whitecloaks, Tuon, etc etc.

[The Fisher King]

I dont think his arrogance is neccessarily a sign of much. There are plenty of arrogant characters, some of which have no connection to the Shadow. Logain is also quite arrogant; we just don't see it as much because he isn't busy laughing and talking about the Lord of Chaos. Then you have most of the Aes Sedai, the Whitecloaks, Tuon, etc etc.

 

But Logain also shows bouts of unexpected humility. Humility is a ... foreign concept to Taim.

 

I like your other examples...but, in each case you can at least SORT *Understand* where the reason for their arrogance comes from.

 

For example, the Aes Sedai basically had kings and queens bowing to them for three thousand years. Kinda easy to see where they'd develop a God Complex.

 

Taim's just is mystifying to me though.

 

 

 

Fish

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just an interesting point to throw into the mix.

 

We see from Alivarin, Rhavin, Graendal, Moggy, Aginor, Masema etc.. that the Shadow prefers to work from the background or 2nd in charge.

 

Alivarin is keeper, moggy is moggy. Graendal manipulates from afar. Masema is manipulated. Rhavin manipulated Morgase (although, he did become king at the end) Aginor became Dashiva.

 

Strange that we think Taim is the one in charge. While I dont doubt he is a darkfriend, for reasons above, I find it likely he is only a puppet for some higher power. Namely the forsaken.

[Ozzie_aiel]

It could part of the madness he had before the taint was cleaned, a complete assurance that he is unstoppable mixed with a touch of megalomania. The way he acted when he first met Rand doesn't exactly paint a picture a man with his full psychological capacities.

 

I doubt he has the Angrael, but he is ruler of a powerful group of people that have been feared for over 3000 years. That tends to make people arrogant.

[OptimusPrime]

Im not going to bother asking how we know Taim isnt Forsaken, or give the explanation for his confidence etc, all Im going to say is that when Rand first met Taim and got him to show Rand his strength, Rand had the fat man with him, so Taim didnt have it at the start.

 

So either Taim is just really strong, or he has another angreal. Or the unmentionable, which falls under the first.

[MikeRiley]

Strange that we think Taim is the one in charge. While I dont doubt he is a darkfriend, for reasons above, I find it likely he is only a puppet for some higher power. Namely the forsaken.

 

 

Taim was taking his orders from somebody in Lord of Chaos. He appeared in time to kill the grey man. The exchange between him and Rand then seemed honest when Taim said he would give much to know for sure who sent it. To me this also implied he did meet with Sammael - or one who was disguised as him (Taim may have saw it for a disguise - sensed Saidar?).

 

I wasn't aware that the fat man angreal was lost, but it would fit Taim to have taken it. He was searching for it in the wreckage of Dumai's Wells. But then, so was Dashiva and it was Dashiva who shook his head when Taim gave a questioning look during the search. Of course, I was also under the impression that Rand didn't have the angreal on him when he was captured. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm not that would mean anybody could have searched his things while he was in the box. Mesanna knew he would be captured. Graendel might have been poking around again. Taim could have.

[Loophole]

Strange, have read the series multiple times but never once stopped to think where the fat man angreal had gone, i guess it just got overshadowed by all the new additions that came along. Taim may have it but I definitely don't think it is his reason for being so arrogant and sure of himself, as others have said he was like that way before rand lost it. Could be a form of madness from the taint... or just genuine craziness, yes it does happen sometimes without the taint...

[Sagacious Lu]

I agree that Taim is a top contender for possession of the angreal. On the subject of his arrogance I think it's an ingrained personality trait rather than an indication of anything though. I forget exactly how long he's been channeling but if memory serves it's more than 10 years. Ten years of being unique in channeling saidin would be more than enough for him to convince himself he's a rock star. Even beyond that he's poised (at minimum) to deliver a lot of male channelers to the DO. That would put him very high among DFs; he might even be the first Chosen from the current age.

[The Fisher King]

I agree that Taim is a top contender for possession of the angreal. On the subject of his arrogance I think it's an ingrained personality trait rather than an indication of anything though. I forget exactly how long he's been channeling but if memory serves it's more than 10 years. Ten years of being unique in channeling saidin would be more than enough for him to convince himself he's a rock star. Even beyond that he's poised (at minimum) to deliver a lot of male channelers to the DO. That would put him very high among DFs; he might even be the first Chosen from the current age.

 

You know what would be fun? What if Taim ISN'T in any way affiliated with the Shadow? What if he's just anindependent mercenary playing his own game, weighing his options, keeping his options open, waiting to see which side ends up on top, taking care of Number One and just generally being a Pr!ck???

 

 

Fish

[Sagacious Lu]

I agree that Taim is a top contender for possession of the angreal. On the subject of his arrogance I think it's an ingrained personality trait rather than an indication of anything though. I forget exactly how long he's been channeling but if memory serves it's more than 10 years. Ten years of being unique in channeling saidin would be more than enough for him to convince himself he's a rock star. Even beyond that he's poised (at minimum) to deliver a lot of male channelers to the DO. That would put him very high among DFs; he might even be the first Chosen from the current age.

 

You know what would be fun? What if Taim ISN'T in any way affiliated with the Shadow? What if he's just anindependent mercenary playing his own game, weighing his options, keeping his options open, waiting to see which side ends up on top, taking care of Number One and just generally being a Pr!ck???

 

 

Fish

 

 

That's not impossible, but the emblem at the Black Tower and his use of the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" have me convinced that he and his cronies in the Tower are DFs. I think the protection from the taint that the DO offered before the cleansing was a recruitment bonanza for Taim.

[The Fisher King]

I think your suspicions are probably correct, Sagacius Lu.

However: I do not believe that Taim is a Font of Never-Ending Loyalty.

 

He's not a Chosen - so he is not COMPELLED to obey the Dark One.

 

He's been backing Team Dark, obviously, and probably for the benefit you suspect - but I think (as Siuan might say) Mazrim is probably privately reserving the right to jump ship if the tide turns.

 

 

 

Fish

[Duskfire]

I think your suspicions are probably correct, Sagacius Lu.

However: I do not believe that Taim is a Font of Never-Ending Loyalty.

 

He's not a Chosen - so he is not COMPELLED to obey the Dark One.

 

He's been backing Team Dark, obviously, and probably for the benefit you suspect - but I think (as Siuan might say) Mazrim is probably privately reserving the right to jump ship if the tide turns.

 

 

 

Fish

 

I doubt Taim would ever jump ship. He obviously despises Rand, whether its Rand himself or the fact that he is the Dragon Reborn and Taim wasn't. In any case, he will never be a good guy. Look at the way he treats Elayne as well. Nah, he has both feet planted firmly in with the Shadow; just now firmly depends on whether he is actually a Forsaken or not.

[Kaznen]

I think it is likely on of the AS who escaped pocketed it as a memento for when they captured the Dragon Reborn. We've seen AS do that before.

[aunt_pol]

Taim's 100% arsehole, is what he is. He was prob sworn to the Shadow in his cot, that lad. Def think he's a contender for being added to the Forsaken list this go round.

[LazyMonk]

we know that the taint affects all male channelers. some are more vulnerable to the effects than others. also, the effects of madness manifest differently in each personality. Taim has endured the taint longer than anyone by far, I believe Taim's arrogance, self assurance, and megalomania are (at least in part) results of the taint.

I say he's a free agent and not a darkfriend. perhaps, in he's mind he might believe he IS the real Dragon and just waiting for the right moment to "convince the world" of the fact. This would mean confronting Rand of course, where the Fat Little Man could tip the balance of power.