Thing In The Blight PoV

[MaccaD]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster here.

 

I have a new take on the cutting of himself that Fain has been doing. I have just been rereading tEotW and right at the end of Chapter 45 the intrepid band of adventurers have just got out of the ways in time to avoid Machin Shin and from Rand's POV he hears/senses the wind saying

"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin, skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams...."

 

I took the phrases in the prologue about Fain cutting himself to see the drops of red blood to fall as being a confirmation that the creature that was Padan Fain definitely exhibits features of Machin Shin along with Mashadar and with whatever he was tainted by the DO as well. Quite the combination.

 

If I'm not making sense and this has been mentioned before please forgive me, but I hadn't seen it yet.

 

Edit: Sorry forgot to originally include this, is this also the first instance of the use of balefire (by Moiraine) and does it suggest that Machin Shin (and therefore Fain) cannot be killed by it?

[OptimusPrime]

Good idea about Fain hunting Moridin-- that idea is entirely possible. I am very intrigued to see what Fain will do next.

 

I can't believe how powerful Fain has become. Here is a question for those well-versed in WoT: Was it Fain that created the mists that destroyed the rebel Cairhien army or was it a bubble of evil? It seems more likely now that it was Fain himself that destroyed Caroline Damodred's army.

 

One last thought: Could it actually be Fain that was leading the attack on Kandor right now?

 

Just with Fain hunting Moridin. It makes perfect sense.

 

Rand is linked with Moridin, they are starting to act like each other and such.

 

Also, Fain was also able to sense Rands bond to Alanna from a very early stage. Would it be possible if Moridin was inheriting all of Rands bonds and connections, including the ones to Mat and Perrin?

[Guest Mndrew]

Hey folks, long time no see. So long in fact, that I completely forgot whatever-the-heck I was using for a username back then, so I went ahead and created a new one.

 

I read the B.S. interview where this was mentioned, and by his statement that he was completely taken aback by this revelation, I feel justified in resurrecting my favorite trouble-making theory.

The thing in the blight is Biedoman.

Not only that, but he created Mashadar, and the Machin-sin. And he is the Lord of Chaos, and father to Narg.

 

All things to all people, that's what I say.

[googly]

I have just been rereading tEotW and right at the end of Chapter 45 the intrepid band of adventurers have just got out of the ways in time to avoid Machin Shin and from Rand's POV he hears/senses the wind saying

"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin, skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams...."

Wow, I totally forgot that one. But I haven't read tEotW in many years.

 

It's probably been discussed before but I couldn't find it when searching, but one thing really leapt out at me.

 

Plaiting strips of skin? Okay, sure, it's probably mad rambling, but I couldn't avoid thinking of the *finn with their wearing of human skin. And also, there's this talk about singing/songs, something the *finn supposedly are dazzled by. Hmm.

[Kestrel]

This quote may be pertinent to the discussion...

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

 

Also...

 

He also mentioned the fact that Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably.

 

All quotes taken from...

 

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_66gfzm5tfx

 

Whoa! Think about this for a minute!

 

We saw from the cleansing of saidin that the Shadar Logoth power is a pure evil unique to itself, which battles and neutralizes the power of the Dark One. We saw more of the same when Rand was "healed" of his two wounds by having their evils directed towards each other; they didn't wipe each other out, but when they became linked the two evils were drawn to each other like magnets and stopped consuming Rand in their frenzy to battle each other.

 

Fain carries the evil of Shadar Logoth with him, and even though Shadar Logoth was wiped out the evil that infested it survived in Fain. Now Fain is in the blight, waiting for Rand in a spot not far from the Dark One's prison.

 

What if Fain shows up at Tarmon Gaidon? I can just imagine Rand sealing the Dark One back in his prison, and trapping Fain in there with him.

 

Min said that her viewings of the future were not an indication of Rand's ultimate victory because they were based on the pattern remaining intact; if Rand were to lose the Last Battle the GOOD side would lose for all time. The pattern would be ripped apart and there would be no future.

 

Enter Fain. Should Rand win the Last Battle and trap Fain in the Dark One's prison, the BAD side loses for all time. Fain and the Dark One spend the rest of eternity ripping each other apart!

 

Comments?

[theblacksmith]

I agree with those that think Fain's cutting is increasing his power and madness. I wonder if taking away his dagger would neutralize him. But good luck trying that.

 

Rather than fain as Gollum, I have started to think of him as Agent Smith.... and that maybe Rand and Moridin will have to join forces to beat him down.

 

I'm thinking Fain won't die.

I think he'll take one the role of the Dark One in future Ages.

 

It's the only way Rand could kill the current Dark One, and not stop the Wheel from turning.

 

 

I do not think it is possible at all to KILL the DO, mankinds defense is to recreate with all of mankind's imperfection the seal to continue his confinement. I also do not believe it is possible for Fain to become the "new" DO in the next turning. The DO was imprisoned by the creator, NOT destroyed...mankind has no way to do more not even the Creator's Champion.

 

I do not like to think of Fain as some Gollum persona, but I do believe he will play a crucial role in the "survival" of the DR in this particular age solely because "wildcards" change things.

[mossman87]

He's definitely looking built up to be the one to go against Shadar Haran. And if Shadar's directly tied to the DO who knows what sparks may fly up the connection.

 

I still don't believe you can kill the DO, or at least there always has to be one there.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with those that think Fain's cutting is increasing his power and madness. I wonder if taking away his dagger would neutralize him. But good luck trying that.

 

Rather than fain as Gollum, I have started to think of him as Agent Smith.... and that maybe Rand and Moridin will have to join forces to beat him down.

 

I'm thinking Fain won't die.

I think he'll take one the role of the Dark One in future Ages.

 

It's the only way Rand could kill the current Dark One, and not stop the Wheel from turning.

 

 

I do not think it is possible at all to KILL the DO, mankinds defense is to recreate with all of mankind's imperfection the seal to continue his confinement. I also do not believe it is possible for Fain to become the "new" DO in the next turning. The DO was imprisoned by the creator, NOT destroyed...mankind has no way to do more not even the Creator's Champion.

 

I do not like to think of Fain as some Gollum persona, but I do believe he will play a crucial role in the "survival" of the DR in this particular age solely because "wildcards" change things.

 

exactly my thoughts.

 

I am not sure people actually understand what the DO is. It is not just some evil force like Fain. IT IS A GOD. The CREATOR OF THE WHEEL AND ALL LIFE could not "kill" the DO, merely imprison him outside of the pattern. Seriously, it is impossible for any mortal to do what their creator could not. Mashadar is a pretty wicked evil, but seriously, it is nothing compared to the DO. It is like comparing a pond to an ocean.

 

There is absolutely no way the DO can be killed. If it somehow happens in the story, I will be extremely disappointed, RJ was a brilliant author, I doubt he would have something like that happen.

 

I also agree with the Fain thing. I think he seems a little TOOOO much like Gollum that RJ was using that as a red herring. I think that Fain's purpose will definitely be vital, but not in the way we expect.

[jdbond]

DO can only be contained. I wouldn't say that even creator cannot kill "it" but it's definitely beyond any mortal device. Fight against DO is eternal.Ishmael understood this very well and that's why he switched sides.

[jdbond]

This quote may be pertinent to the discussion...

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

 

Also...

 

He also mentioned the fact that Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably.

 

All quotes taken from...

 

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_66gfzm5tfx

 

Whoa! Think about this for a minute!

 

We saw from the cleansing of saidin that the Shadar Logoth power is a pure evil unique to itself, which battles and neutralizes the power of the Dark One. We saw more of the same when Rand was "healed" of his two wounds by having their evils directed towards each other; they didn't wipe each other out, but when they became linked the two evils were drawn to each other like magnets and stopped consuming Rand in their frenzy to battle each other.

 

Fain carries the evil of Shadar Logoth with him, and even though Shadar Logoth was wiped out the evil that infested it survived in Fain. Now Fain is in the blight, waiting for Rand in a spot not far from the Dark One's prison.

 

What if Fain shows up at Tarmon Gaidon? I can just imagine Rand sealing the Dark One back in his prison, and trapping Fain in there with him.

 

Min said that her viewings of the future were not an indication of Rand's ultimate victory because they were based on the pattern remaining intact; if Rand were to lose the Last Battle the GOOD side would lose for all time. The pattern would be ripped apart and there would be no future.

 

Enter Fain. Should Rand win the Last Battle and trap Fain in the Dark One's prison, the BAD side loses for all time. Fain and the Dark One spend the rest of eternity ripping each other apart!

 

Comments?

 

 

Blight is NOT DO's prison. It's not a place. Pattern itself is DO's prison.

[inkL0sed]

Terez, I'm curious, why do you think this confirms Fain as the Shadowspawn stealer? Nothing in this matches that--Myrdraal die at his touch, they don't mistakenly think he has the Chosen Mark. And he directly implies that had the Myrdraal not died, he would have had to use iron nails to torture it as per The Shadow Rising.

 

Yes, his powers have expanded, but in a way the works against him being the Shadowspawn stealer. Nothing here answers him having the ability to command them as Chosen.

 

What do you mean by the Shadowspawn stealer? I don't spend a lot of time on WoT discussion boards, so I don't always know what people mean when they use these shorthand ways of referring to various things.

[Sharaman]

Terez, I'm curious, why do you think this confirms Fain as the Shadowspawn stealer? Nothing in this matches that--Myrdraal die at his touch, they don't mistakenly think he has the Chosen Mark. And he directly implies that had the Myrdraal not died, he would have had to use iron nails to torture it as per The Shadow Rising.

 

Yes, his powers have expanded, but in a way the works against him being the Shadowspawn stealer. Nothing here answers him having the ability to command them as Chosen.

 

What do you mean by the Shadowspawn stealer? I don't spend a lot of time on WoT discussion boards, so I don't always know what people mean when they use these shorthand ways of referring to various things.

According to Moridin, somebody pretending to be Sammael sent the trollocs and Myrdraal to attack Algiarin's manor. It had to be somebody with the Chosen mark and we know it's not Aran'gar. One of the theories is that it's Fain.

[inkL0sed]

Terez, I'm curious, why do you think this confirms Fain as the Shadowspawn stealer? Nothing in this matches that--Myrdraal die at his touch, they don't mistakenly think he has the Chosen Mark. And he directly implies that had the Myrdraal not died, he would have had to use iron nails to torture it as per The Shadow Rising.

 

Yes, his powers have expanded, but in a way the works against him being the Shadowspawn stealer. Nothing here answers him having the ability to command them as Chosen.

 

What do you mean by the Shadowspawn stealer? I don't spend a lot of time on WoT discussion boards, so I don't always know what people mean when they use these shorthand ways of referring to various things.

According to Moridin, somebody pretending to be Sammael sent the trollocs and Myrdraal to attack Algiarin's manor. It had to be somebody with the Chosen mark and we know it's not Aran'gar. One of the theories is that it's Fain.

 

Oh, right, thanks. I should probably reread The Gathering Storm (I mean, reading it only twice in a week is just pathetic...)

[JakeBarnes]

Oh, right, thanks. I should probably reread The Gathering Storm (I mean, reading it only twice in a week is just pathetic...)

 

You should actually re-read Knife of Dreams.

[DemandredFO]

The shadowspawn stealer CAN'T be Fain, along with all the others reasons stated elsewhere, Fain wants a mono y mono.

[DocBean]

I am not sure people actually understand what the DO is. It is not just some evil force like Fain. IT IS A GOD. The CREATOR OF THE WHEEL AND ALL LIFE could not "kill" the DO, merely imprison him outside of the pattern. Seriously, it is impossible for any mortal to do what their creator could not. Mashadar is a pretty wicked evil, but seriously, it is nothing compared to the DO. It is like comparing a pond to an ocean.

 

There is absolutely no way the DO can be killed. If it somehow happens in the story, I will be extremely disappointed, RJ was a brilliant author, I doubt he would have something like that happen.

 

I also agree with the Fain thing. I think he seems a little TOOOO much like Gollum that RJ was using that as a red herring. I think that Fain's purpose will definitely be vital, but not in the way we expect.

 

I love that people think Killing the Dark One is impossible; what books have you all been reading? I've seen Birgette resurrected from the Dead, and a thousand other impossibilities.

 

I had a theory a long time ago, that not only can the dark one be killed, but that's exactly what the dark one wants, and Rand is the only one that can do it.

 

We know for a fact (from RJ himself) that Rand's soul has gone over the the darkside in previous turnings. Yet the end result was a draw. So it wasn't a dark victory.

I believe the only way that the Dark couldn't achieve an absolute victory is for the Dark One to live. If Rand refuses to kill him, then he won't get what he wants.

 

I think for this turning of the Wheel to be unique something major HAS to happen. Moridin doesn't think it's possible to kill the Dark One.

I think that's a huge clue to what is going to happen. When Rand touched the Dark One, his first instict for everything was to KILL. That's what the Dark One wanted.

 

Now that Rand has turned the corner the big shocker will be if he actually DOES do the impossible, and kill the Dark One; if that happens another MUST take his place.

Enter Fain, who is possibly more evil then the Dark One himself.

[The Desert Pea]

I am not sure people actually understand what the DO is. It is not just some evil force like Fain. IT IS A GOD. The CREATOR OF THE WHEEL AND ALL LIFE could not "kill" the DO, merely imprison him outside of the pattern. Seriously, it is impossible for any mortal to do what their creator could not. Mashadar is a pretty wicked evil, but seriously, it is nothing compared to the DO. It is like comparing a pond to an ocean.

 

There is absolutely no way the DO can be killed. If it somehow happens in the story, I will be extremely disappointed, RJ was a brilliant author, I doubt he would have something like that happen.

 

I also agree with the Fain thing. I think he seems a little TOOOO much like Gollum that RJ was using that as a red herring. I think that Fain's purpose will definitely be vital, but not in the way we expect.

 

We know for a fact (from RJ himself) that Rand's soul has gone over the the darkside in previous turnings. Yet the end result was a draw. So it wasn't a dark victory.

 

RJ said that the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow in the past, but not the Dragon soul. Just saying.

[Azral]

I am not sure people actually understand what the DO is. It is not just some evil force like Fain. IT IS A GOD. The CREATOR OF THE WHEEL AND ALL LIFE could not "kill" the DO, merely imprison him outside of the pattern. Seriously, it is impossible for any mortal to do what their creator could not. Mashadar is a pretty wicked evil, but seriously, it is nothing compared to the DO. It is like comparing a pond to an ocean.

 

There is absolutely no way the DO can be killed. If it somehow happens in the story, I will be extremely disappointed, RJ was a brilliant author, I doubt he would have something like that happen.

 

I also agree with the Fain thing. I think he seems a little TOOOO much like Gollum that RJ was using that as a red herring. I think that Fain's purpose will definitely be vital, but not in the way we expect.

 

I love that people think Killing the Dark One is impossible; what books have you all been reading? I've seen Birgette resurrected from the Dead, and a thousand other impossibilities.

 

I had a theory a long time ago, that not only can the dark one be killed, but that's exactly what the dark one wants, and Rand is the only one that can do it.

 

We know for a fact (from RJ himself) that Rand's soul has gone over the the darkside in previous turnings. Yet the end result was a draw. So it wasn't a dark victory.

I believe the only way that the Dark couldn't achieve an absolute victory is for the Dark One to live. If Rand refuses to kill him, then he won't get what he wants.

 

I think for this turning of the Wheel to be unique something major HAS to happen. Moridin doesn't think it's possible to kill the Dark One.

I think that's a huge clue to what is going to happen. When Rand touched the Dark One, his first instict for everything was to KILL. That's what the Dark One wanted.

 

Now that Rand has turned the corner the big shocker will be if he actually DOES do the impossible, and kill the Dark One; if that happens another MUST take his place.

Enter Fain, who is possibly more evil then the Dark One himself.

 

RJ states there won't be a unique ending that changes the WOT universe - such as the killing of the Dark One, which changes everything:

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]7 https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj'>https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj

 

This also implies that despite Fain's uniqueness, RJ does not see it leading to a unique outcome for the Wheel. So if killing the Dark One is not possible and if we believe that RJ was for happy endings, then yes the Bore will be healed and the Dark One sealed up till the next Age of Legends.

 

And RJ makes it clear:

 

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

RJ: The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj

 

At the same time we have this quote:

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

My take on this is that Fain is still tangentially connected to the Pattern, he is not outside of it. Mashadar, Mordeth are all elements derived from the Pattern. Fain himself still has a thread, although it is possible that his side-stepping of the Pattern means he is able to overcome whatever (fate/destiny) the Pattern weaves for him, NOT that he is now an independent existence outside of it, like the Creator and the DO are.

 

Fain is likely to be one to kill Shaidar Haran though. SH can take out channelers and has reality warping powers, of a sort. None of the protagonists can deal with him. But Fain, he seems tailor made for it. He kills Myrdraal with a touch, can generate anti-shadow evil Mashadar and is intent on killing the Dark One.

 

RJ has stated outright that the Creator and the Dark One are opposites yet equals. It's the theme of balance, of yin and yang. Of course based on results I'd say it's more like the Creator is 'first among equals' since his will (creation/existence/pattern) still holds and the DO has (up to now) failed to impose his own. The only one that can defeat the Dark One (maybe even destroy him) is the Creator.

 

And yes, we all know RJ said, implying its possible to destroy the DO with balefire but the amount necessary would destroy the world - well if the OP is the Creator's essence, mirroring the TP as the DO's essence, then imagine what would happen if the two came into contact in such vast amounts. My suspicion has been that the OP and TP are indestructible, except to each other because they are the essences of Gods.

[jdbond]

I am not sure people actually understand what the DO is. It is not just some evil force like Fain. IT IS A GOD. The CREATOR OF THE WHEEL AND ALL LIFE could not "kill" the DO, merely imprison him outside of the pattern. Seriously, it is impossible for any mortal to do what their creator could not. Mashadar is a pretty wicked evil, but seriously, it is nothing compared to the DO. It is like comparing a pond to an ocean.

 

There is absolutely no way the DO can be killed. If it somehow happens in the story, I will be extremely disappointed, RJ was a brilliant author, I doubt he would have something like that happen.

 

I also agree with the Fain thing. I think he seems a little TOOOO much like Gollum that RJ was using that as a red herring. I think that Fain's purpose will definitely be vital, but not in the way we expect.

 

I love that people think Killing the Dark One is impossible; what books have you all been reading? I've seen Birgette resurrected from the Dead, and a thousand other impossibilities.

 

I had a theory a long time ago, that not only can the dark one be killed, but that's exactly what the dark one wants, and Rand is the only one that can do it.

 

We know for a fact (from RJ himself) that Rand's soul has gone over the the darkside in previous turnings. Yet the end result was a draw. So it wasn't a dark victory.

I believe the only way that the Dark couldn't achieve an absolute victory is for the Dark One to live. If Rand refuses to kill him, then he won't get what he wants.

 

I think for this turning of the Wheel to be unique something major HAS to happen. Moridin doesn't think it's possible to kill the Dark One.

I think that's a huge clue to what is going to happen. When Rand touched the Dark One, his first instict for everything was to KILL. That's what the Dark One wanted.

 

Now that Rand has turned the corner the big shocker will be if he actually DOES do the impossible, and kill the Dark One; if that happens another MUST take his place.

Enter Fain, who is possibly more evil then the Dark One himself.

 

 

I like your confidence even if everything you say sounds sheer nonsense.

[Duskfire]

I guess to me I dont see the point of the series if its all the same as the previous turnings. It is like the Matrix; imagine when Neo was given the option of "restarting" humanity like the previous Chosen Ones he said, "sure." Granted, we wouldnt have sat through that third movie, however it would have made the series pointless. People like uniqueness, they like the heroes they read about accomplishing what others previously have not been able to do. Nynaeve talks about curing death; Rand talks about killing the DO. Both have been deemed to be impossible, and maybe they are, but I find it hard to believe that this age we are currently reading about will end like every other age. Maybe Rand won't kill the DO, but he will do something different, something that will make this Age unique. Maybe time will be made effectivily linear, maybe Rand will work out a way to permanently imprison the DO basically forever. I have no doubt in my mind though that something will change from the previous turnings.

[Rcurran]

Creator creates dark one destroys and as humanity we have the casting vote.

 

I don't think you can accurately describe the dark one ad a god. I don't think that any Christians, for instance, call the devil a god. That's blasphemy, there only is one god.

 

Now there are a lot of differences between the devil and the dark one, primarily, the devil was cast down whereas the dark one existed since the moment of creation. Indeed, since creation was the action that started everything some people would even day that the dark one is a byproduct of creation, to bring balance to an act of such magnitude. The act being starting the wheel - there would have to be something that could stop the wheel in existence to licence the very turning of the wheel, hense balance.

 

This is a theological discussion, and whilst it's possibly ultimately vacuous it's benefit can come from excluding the things we know are not true rather than identifying one absolute truth. In this regard I would propose that we do not consider the dark one a god. He is not the balance to god but the balance to the act of god. The act being creation, indeed, the raison d'être of the Creator, therin confusion lies.

[jdbond]

I guess to me I dont see the point of the series if its all the same as the previous turnings. It is like the Matrix; imagine when Neo was given the option of "restarting" humanity like the previous Chosen Ones he said, "sure." Granted, we wouldnt have sat through that third movie, however it would have made the series pointless. People like uniqueness, they like the heroes they read about accomplishing what others previously have not been able to do. Nynaeve talks about curing death; Rand talks about killing the DO. Both have been deemed to be impossible, and maybe they are, but I find it hard to believe that this age we are currently reading about will end like every other age. Maybe Rand won't kill the DO, but he will do something different, something that will make this Age unique. Maybe time will be made effectivily linear, maybe Rand will work out a way to permanently imprison the DO basically forever. I have no doubt in my mind though that something will change from the previous turnings.

 

 

Yes it needs to be different since we are reading about it;) Hell, Michael the archangel might just make an appearance at the end and kill DO. Anything less than that would be lame.

 

 

P.S: I remember LTT, during all his mad rantings, saying something like how he was arrogant enough to believe that a mortal can ever recreate what Creator designed in first place.

[jdbond]

Creator creates dark one destroys and as humanity we have the casting vote.

 

I don't think you can accurately describe the dark one ad a god. I don't think that any Christians, for instance, call the devil a god. That's blasphemy, there only is one god.

 

DO is their Lucifer as for as we are concerned. There is a reason why Creator was able to out him in prison in first place.

Now there are a lot of differences between the devil and the dark one, primarily, the devil was cast down whereas the dark one existed since the moment of creation. Indeed, since creation was the action that started everything some people would even day that the dark one is a byproduct of creation, to bring balance to an act of such magnitude. The act being starting the wheel - there would have to be something that could stop the wheel in existence to licence the very turning of the wheel, hense balance.

 

I think Lucifer also "existed" since the moment of creation. You just need to define what creation is.

 

This is a theological discussion, and whilst it's possibly ultimately vacuous it's benefit can come from excluding the things we know are not true rather than identifying one absolute truth. In this regard I would propose that we do not consider the dark one a god. He is not the balance to god but the balance to the act of god. The act being creation, indeed, the raison d'être of the Creator, therin confusion lies.

 

 

Blasphemous me. DO is a GOD...like as for as us mortals are concerned;) Afterall, what exactly is a GOD?

 

I need coffee.

[DocBean]

I like your confidence even if everything you say sounds sheer nonsense.

 

What exactly is nonsense?

That Birgette has risen from the dead? I believe she has.

We've seen Forsaken pulled back from death, you think the Dark One is the only one that can do it?

 

Is it that I believe the Dark One could be killed?

Did you read Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn Trilogy?

There is a strong possibility that Harriet picked him because Brandon's Gods are similar to RJs gods.

I won't ruin them for you, but you might want to check them out.

 

Why are you so sure the Dark One cannot be killed?

Moridin might think he's immortal, but Lanfear seemed to believe he could be taken out with the Chodan Kal.

Why believe one forsaken over another?

Remember Moridin paused for a really long time after Rand told him he planned to kill the dark one.

What would the pause be, if not him considering the possibility?

 

Is it that you don't believe Rand can kill him?

That's strange, because if you've read the books and the spoiler chapter, then you've seen him do a lot of things that seem to be impossible.

 

Maybe you believe Moridin is right because he was a philosopher?

Hmm, seems to me that there was a time when the smartest people all over the Earth thought the Earth was flat.

[sarcastic font] I'd hate to think that a smart philosopher could actually be wrong....[/sarcastic font]

 

I know what it is, you believe that the Dark One must be imprisoned for the next age to come around?

That's what I think too! The only difference is I believe that Fain could be the future Dark One.

Also don't forget there are 7 spokes to the Wheel of time. The next time the Dark One is released won't be in the Age of Legends.

There is nothing saying that his prison MUST be fresh and new at the end of the Third Age.

All we know is that this age "Is an Age long past, an Age yet to come..."

 

You can say you don't agree (because it is a theory after all, and one I'd be surprised to see actually), but I fail to see where the nonsense is.

Please enlighten me with your vast knowledge of the workings of Robert Jordan's gods.

... or maybe don't, I'd hate to have the ending ruined for me by someone who obviously knows what's going to happen.

[jdbond]

This is going to be a long one.

I like your confidence even if everything you say sounds sheer nonsense.

 

What exactly is nonsense?

That Birgette has risen from the dead? I believe she has.

We've seen Forsaken pulled back from death, you think the Dark One is the only one that can do it?

 

When exactly was Birgitte risen from dead and where exactly it says that dead cannot be brought back to life? Ofcourse a mortal cannot do it. Isn't Wheel bringing EVERY dead back to life all the time? This book is neither yours nor mine so our "believes" don't matter.

 

Is it that I believe the Dark One could be killed?

Did you read Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn Trilogy?

There is a strong possibility that Harriet picked him because Brandon's Gods are similar to RJs gods.

I won't ruin them for you, but you might want to check them out.

 

Another belief? okay..

 

Why are you so sure the Dark One cannot be killed?

Moridin might think he's immortal, but Lanfear seemed to believe he could be taken out with the Chodan Kal.

Why believe one forsaken over another?

Remember Moridin paused for a really long time after Rand told him he planned to kill the dark one.

What would the pause be, if not him considering the possibility?

 

I am sure DO can be killed but not by a mortal man. His powers are beyond comprehension. Just because one forsaken thinks one thing or another something else, doesn't make it either of those ideas true. DO is not some person. Even in it's captivity it is affecting the whole world, something beyond the capability of any channeler. Imagine what he can do when he is actually free. Fight will end in an instant. His tool, Shaidar Haran has made mockery of all forsaken.

 

I don't remember how long Moridin's pause was but he did call Rand an ultra moron for even thinking about such a thing.

 

Is it that you don't believe Rand can kill him?

That's strange, because if you've read the books and the spoiler chapter, then you've seen him do a lot of things that seem to be impossible.

 

 

I am sure much powerful and wise LTT didn't bother to KILL DO for a reason. You might as well claim in next post that they can also kill the creator. Just because ideas pop up into our minds doesn't mean they are actually realistic.

 

Maybe you believe Moridin is right because he was a philosopher?

Hmm, seems to me that there was a time when the smartest people all over the Earth thought the Earth was flat.

[sarcastic font] I'd hate to think that a smart philosopher could actually be wrong....[/sarcastic font]

 

 

H is the only onee who didn't switch sides for power. He is the only one who understood to an extent the idea of eternal struggle and what DO might actually be trying to achieve. In nutshell he sort of knows that DO is lying to all his followers.

 

I know what it is, you believe that the Dark One must be imprisoned for the next age to come around?

That's what I think too! The only difference is I believe that Fain could be the future Dark One.

Also don't forget there are 7 spokes to the Wheel of time. The next time the Dark One is released won't be in the Age of Legends.

There is nothing saying that his prison MUST be fresh and new at the end of the Third Age.

All we know is that this age "Is an Age long past, an Age yet to come..."

 

 

Creator put DO in his prison and that prison is the pattern itself. Are you saying that Dragon will create a new wheel of time and a pattern? Or he will shove Fain through the bore and then seal it up again?

 

You can say you don't agree (because it is a theory after all, and one I'd be surprised to see actually), but I fail to see where the nonsense is.

Please enlighten me with your vast knowledge of the workings of Robert Jordan's gods.

... or maybe don't, I'd hate to have the ending ruined for me by someone who obviously knows what's going to happen.

 

 

Ohh..I can only say this: if DO is alive since creation and this fight is going on since EVER, what makes you think other Dragons didn't try killing DO before. If LTT, who had access to Choden Kal (almost) never even considered the idea, what makes you think Rand magically can do it and now when he doesn't even have Choden Kal.