Thing In The Blight PoV

[Matrim DeLaneous]

The whole red and black thing was cool. so Moridin Taim and Fain all had a thing with it.

I wanted to bring this comment from OtT forward as I think it's very relevant. There's no way it can be coincidence. I think I remember a Luckers theory that used the "Red and Black" scenario to connect Taim to Moridin. I think the one point that the story affirms is that Red & Black are Moridin's colors.

[Random Man]

The whole red and black thing was cool. so Moridin Taim and Fain all had a thing with it.

I wanted to bring this comment from OtT forward as I think it's very relevant. There's no way it can be coincidence. I think I remember a Luckers theory that used the "Red and Black" scenario to connect Taim to Moridin. I think the one point that the story affirms is that Red & Black are Moridin's colors.

Totally agree. There's no way that it's a coincidence that Fain would think of red and black, when it's connected to the Prophecies of the Dragon. Also red and black being Moridin's colors could also be a reference to the prophecy. After all, what colors but the ones spoken of in prophecy of your enemy's death would be most fitting? Moritaim or Mazidrin lives on!

 

Oh, and it was in Fal Dara -- after being touched by both Mordeth and Machin Shin -- that he seemed to gain a moment of clarity and tell Moiraine et al that he wanted to walk in the Light:

 

EoTW chapter 46, "Fal Dara"

"I hate him, (Fain) whimpered. "I want to be free of him. I want to walk in the Light again." His shoulders began to shake, and tears streamed down his face even more heavily than before. "He made me do it."

[Ashaman Kovan]

So we dissuaded the people who think Fain is the shadow spawn thief then eh..

[Duskfire]

Fain doesn't feature in any of these equations. He cannot, except perhaps, in what the Finn saw). Fain is a wild-card, the equivalent of Fain didn't exist earlier, whenever the last effective removal of the GLoD from the Pattern occurred. Any method involving Fain must necessarily be new and more or less outside all earlier calculations. So it could be a bit of a red herring to try and work Fain into earlier hints we've got about Sealing off GLoD, except perhaps in the context of the "To live you must die" answer.

 

Except for those of us who believe that this turning of the Wheel will be different, and it will be different because of Fain.

[Awakened]

Fain doesn't feature in any of these equations. He cannot, except perhaps, in what the Finn saw). Fain is a wild-card, the equivalent of Fain didn't exist earlier, whenever the last effective removal of the GLoD from the Pattern occurred. Any method involving Fain must necessarily be new and more or less outside all earlier calculations. So it could be a bit of a red herring to try and work Fain into earlier hints we've got about Sealing off GLoD, except perhaps in the context of the "To live you must die" answer.

 

Except for those of us who believe that this turning of the Wheel will be different, and it will be different because of Fain.

 

This is my hope. It would mean that the One Power would not have to disappear with the next turning of the wheel because things can now be different.

[Sharaman]

The OP has to disappear in some Ages - we know that it does.

If it happens due to the locking away of GLoD, it would be one clean way to solve all the channeler-damane, age-ist, gender-skew related issues.

It would also make a great deal of narrative sense.

[Aquarius]

The OP has to disappear in some Ages - we know that it does.

If it happens due to the locking away of GLoD, it would be one clean way to solve all the channeler-damane, age-ist, gender-skew related issues.

It would also make a great deal of narrative sense.

Why does it have to disappear ? Because it has to be discovered somehow ? (in an Age before the AoL?) Does nobody believe in the theory about time becoming linear, a breaking of the Wheel, but the right way ?

[Lisa Campbell]

I think this subject of Fain being the new DO is interesting even though if Rand succeeds he won't be around for thousands of years.

 

The Wheel turns, many new heroes are born and because of the Brown Ajah, the Ogier (they'll stay and join the fight) and Rand's libraries/academies, many tales will be written that will become myth and prophecy in the Ages to come.

 

Also much will be learnt. Many objects of power will be created. There will be an era of equality after Fain becomes the new DO. The Ogier will again create great works of stone and garden.

 

All setting up for the next AoL. What about the Collum Daan? It was the DO's prison back then. Seems to me that is what Rand has to replicate, not the seal. (Herid Fel agrees.) From all the descriptions SG is nothing like this. When Rand breaks the seals I think the DO will escape. He will need a body. Fain?

 

Further thoughts: Rand will "break the world again" but in a kind way by using his taveran uber powers and imprison Fain at Shadar Logoth... Where the Shadow Waits.

[Sharaman]

The OP has to disappear in some Ages - we know that it does.

If it happens due to the locking away of GLoD, it would be one clean way to solve all the channeler-damane, age-ist, gender-skew related issues.

It would also make a great deal of narrative sense.

Why does it have to disappear ? Because it has to be discovered somehow ? (in an Age before the AoL?) Does nobody believe in the theory about time becoming linear, a breaking of the Wheel, but the right way ?

 

Because

1) RJ said there are ages in which OP and channeling have been forgotten

2) RJ confirmed that the WoT is our world in another age - we don't have either OP or a memory of channeling

3) In RJ's view, time is circular and it's his universe.

[Duskfire]

The OP has to disappear in some Ages - we know that it does.

If it happens due to the locking away of GLoD, it would be one clean way to solve all the channeler-damane, age-ist, gender-skew related issues.

It would also make a great deal of narrative sense.

Why does it have to disappear ? Because it has to be discovered somehow ? (in an Age before the AoL?) Does nobody believe in the theory about time becoming linear, a breaking of the Wheel, but the right way ?

 

Because

1) RJ said there are ages in which OP and channeling have been forgotten

2) RJ confirmed that the WoT is our world in another age - we don't have either OP or a memory of channeling

3) In RJ's view, time is circular and it's his universe.

 

Well yeha, but it doesnt mean that it won't change at all.

 

I dont think time will be made linear per say, but I think Rand will break this constant cycle of the ages. There will still be a cycle, but this time it will be different, maybe without the DO, maybe with a new form of DO, maybe something else. But because of what Rand does, the next turning of the Wheel, the second and third age will be completely different and end differently.

 

Thats how I see it.

[Lisa Campbell]

@Sharaman

 

The only way I can see that use of the power will die out or be forgotten is that if all the channelers die at TG which is a possiblity considering what someone said in their POV about some battle in Seanchan, cant remember the details but you're good at that.

[Sharaman]

Well, Rand could figure out some means of using all of OP (saidar+saidin) to seal the GLoD away.

Then everyone forgets about the power and channeling, etc., because it isn't there.

Millennia later, somebody accidentally discovers a way to use the OP, and by gradually tapping into the seal, channelers create the thinness that Meirin Sedai and Beidomon Sedai exploit to drill the Bore.

That's one way in which circularity could happen.

I'm sure RJ thought of other, more elegant ways.

Or else, he didn't "disappear" the OP at tarmai'geddon and found another resolution to the GLoD seal-off.

Quite possible.

@ Elci, we've never seen a battle in Seanchan so I have no idea what you're referring to.

[DocBean]

I put this in another thread, but I think it probably belongs here:

 

What is with all the Black and Red?

 

We know Taim loves black and red, we know Rand loves black and red, we know Moridin and Demandred love black and red.

Fain REALLY seems to love black and red, even going to the trouble to cut himself and look at the blood and the black skys and

talk to himself saying over and over again how wonderful the black and red is.

 

Is this just supposed to be some sort of Nazi Germany Reference?

 

Why do these darkfriends, (and Rand with his connection to Morridin most likely) have such an obsession with black and red?

[Lisa Campbell]

Oh how i wish I had been sticking post it notes in my books all these years!

 

It was not a battle we saw in Seanchan but someone's remembrance of one from the consolidation. 400+ damane on each side of the field and just about all of them croaked. Might have been that officer who ended up being the "next in command" at the time when Rand was trying to destroy them in Altara and Callandor's flaw was discovered.

[Duskfire]

I put this in another thread, but I think it probably belongs here:

 

What is with all the Black and Red?

 

We know Taim loves black and red, we know Rand loves black and red, we know Moridin and Demandred love black and red.

Fain REALLY seems to love black and red, even going to the trouble to cut himself and look at the blood and the black skys and

talk to himself saying over and over again how wonderful the black and red is.

 

Is this just supposed to be some sort of Nazi Germany Reference?

 

Why do these darkfriends, (and Rand with his connection to Morridin most likely) have such an obsession with black and red?

 

Demandred doesn't really love black and red; not to the same extent that the others do. It is WoT; something like that is important. Rand and Moridin as you said are because of the link, with Fain I imagine it has something to do with Rand. And Taim because he is a proxy of Moridins.

[DocBean]

 

Demandred doesn't really love black and red; not to the same extent that the others do. It is WoT; something like that is important. Rand and Moridin as you said are because of the link, with Fain I imagine it has something to do with Rand. And Taim because he is a proxy of Moridins.

 

I could have swore that people used to believe Demandred was Taim (or visa versa) because of all the similarities they have.

The love of Red and Black was one of them.

 

I don't remember where it says Demandred loves Red and Black, but I thought that was somewhere in the books.

[Tsunami]

I agree with those that think Fain's cutting is increasing his power and madness. I wonder if taking away his dagger would neutralize him. But good luck trying that.

 

Rather than fain as Gollum, I have started to think of him as Agent Smith.... and that maybe Rand and Moridin will have to join forces to beat him down.

[waffle]

Why do these darkfriends, (and Rand with his connection to Morridin most likely) have such an obsession with black and red?

 

looks cool

[DocBean]

I agree with those that think Fain's cutting is increasing his power and madness. I wonder if taking away his dagger would neutralize him. But good luck trying that.

 

Rather than fain as Gollum, I have started to think of him as Agent Smith.... and that maybe Rand and Moridin will have to join forces to beat him down.

 

I'm thinking Fain won't die.

I think he'll take one the role of the Dark One in future Ages.

 

It's the only way Rand could kill the current Dark One, and not stop the Wheel from turning.

[Ashaman Kovan]

 

Demandred doesn't really love black and red; not to the same extent that the others do. It is WoT; something like that is important. Rand and Moridin as you said are because of the link, with Fain I imagine it has something to do with Rand. And Taim because he is a proxy of Moridins.

 

I could have swore that people used to believe Demandred was Taim (or visa versa) because of all the similarities they have.

 

They did. Until RJ said that he wasn't. And even then people still try and say he is.

[Cyf]

Don't forget the people who insist he was meant to be but Jordan changed it to 'spite them'. Some fans are kinda ... well.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Don't forget the people who insist he was meant to be but Jordan changed it to 'spite them'. Some fans are kinda ... well.

 

Ididots? Yeah, I think idiots is the word you're looking for. :]

[DocBean]

 

Demandred doesn't really love black and red; not to the same extent that the others do. It is WoT; something like that is important. Rand and Moridin as you said are because of the link, with Fain I imagine it has something to do with Rand. And Taim because he is a proxy of Moridins.

 

I could have swore that people used to believe Demandred was Taim (or visa versa) because of all the similarities they have.

 

They did. Until RJ said that he wasn't. And even then people still try and say he is.

 

I know that. I was saying I thought one of the reasons why people thought he was Demandred (I was one of them) was because of his love of Black and Red.

So I assumed that somewhere in the books it said that Demandred loved black and red.

[fisher80]

This quote may be pertinent to the discussion...

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

The Mordeth/Mashadar power seems to have existed in earlier ages b/c Aginor recognizes Mat's dagger at the end of TEoTW and says something like "and old friend, and ancient enemy". When RJ says Padan Fain is unique, maybe it's b/c he represents the first time the DO's power has been admixed with the Mashadar/Mordeth evil (since they seem to be by nature opposed), since the DO touched Fain and made him his Hound at SG.

[Sharaman]

Yes, it's the mixture of Mashadar with what the GLoD put into Fain that makes him a wild card that's more dangerous than Mordeth ever was.

Incidentally, he has a peculiar mixture of strengths and vulnerability.

He's still theoretically susceptible to (weak) channeling but he could maze/ kill the most powerful channelers with his combination of illusions and mashadar.

He appears to be more or less immune to any physical assault - does his mashadar work anywhere he is, or it tied to the dagger?

Can be struck at by a Slayer-type who slides out of TAR? Not in the Blight apparently since the Blight can't be reached in TAR.