Perrin's PoV

[Capering Capers]

The suspicion that the imagery in the dreams was connected to Perrin's wehavebeenharpingaboutthissinceforever issues made me almost stop reading them. I like some parts about Perrin and Perrin's storyline, but I find it very hard to impersonate with someone who kills people left right and center and then behaves like a bloody school-girl (sorry ladies; teen-age boy) when it comes to dealing with emotions.

 

Your people think you slept with a hot chick/lady-->Laugh uproariously and say 'ain't that something' -->drink a beer, talk war, mend wagons, hump the wife and get on with life

 

There is something between your wife and you --->Call her, walk in forest for hour, talk... get on with life

 

You might stay a mental :-) wolf one day (ok this is a mindfuck) --> Talk to the wolf-guy Elyas who's been hanging around--> get on with life, time to toss the dice that are heavier than a mountain on mothers-day

 

 

Anyway, the above may be a bit crass it is just what it makes me think sometime...

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think Perrin has a undiagnosed mental illness.

He attention to detail, his lack of awareness of himself, he inabilty to cope with change, over thinking every little thing, trying to force things instead of moving with the changed, his lack of emotion when his family died, being unable to cope in social situations, his temper, reliance on Faile, focusing on one thing, Faile's capture, to the deterrence of all others

[Duskfire]

I think a lot of people find Perrin boring because his character does not have a lot of issues or hang-ups -- he is solid. Moiraine compared Perrin to a Warder when it comes to duty. Once Perrin accepts who he is (part wolf) he will be that much stronger as a character. Things I did note in the prologue was:

1) "He was dreaming, though he wasn't in the wolf dream" -- was he in that place Rand always meets Ishamael/Moridin??

2) "Perrin picked up the length of glowing iron with his tongs. The air warped around it" -- what is that about?

3) How did Hopper know that Aram challenged Perrin and Perrin killed him? Hopper is in the World of Dreams, how would he know what happened in the real world?

 

Perrin's dream reminds me of when Moghedian tried to trap Egwene in the World of Dreams. Question is... who tried to trap Perrin?

 

No, alot of people find Perrin boring because he is still complaining about the same stuff he was complaining about in book 1! Thats why Perrin is boring. He himself is fine; the quiet, strong, compassionate type. Thats awesome. But he is still facing the same problems he did in book 1. What if Rand were still worrying about whether he was the Dragon Reborn or not, or Mat refused to continue to accept responsibility and ran from eveyrthing? It would be boring, because its the same thing. Perrin has had no character progression as far as his internal conflicts have been; nothing has been resolved, he is still worrying over the same thing. That is boring.

[theblacksmith]

I am a Perrin fan, despite the lack of progress in his story, but I also hated Egwene until recently and wished I ould skip over the majority of her chatter.

I believe one of the things that may have delayed his development is timing. He lacks the need for the childish development other characters needed...he does not run from responsibility, "Rand give it to me, if they need it I will carry it." "Yeah, I feel him pulling at me, Mat, but I have to go...they are looking for me and my family." I don't care how many of them there are we have to get Rand back." All Perrin all early.

The Senchan prophecy, the fox and the rave...the wolfking and the axe...maybe he had to be brough through it slowly to be on equal footing with everyone in the nick of time.

Now I am tired of his indecisiveness his inability to accept the portion of himself that is wolf, the lack of instruction to combat the awful future for him if he fails to control it, me being a genuis i decided long ago that all he needed to do was accept. Probably wrong lol...

I believe TOM will be his moment, simply because we are out of time, and all arguments for him to join tinkerdom be washed away by the light, he strongly disgrees with the thought that you cannot defend yourself and those you love, care for, or are responsible for.

Perhaps this time, his story can be told and it will not overshadow, the Dragon and The Gambler, but complete the Trio

[gambril]

Someone else stated it, but Perrin's main problem with me and it seems many others is that since TSR he has had no character progression. In fact, he has slipped backwards since then I feel. That's also part of Perrin's problem is that after Malden he realizes he's been a moron since Faile was kidnapped and now in the Prologue we have to go through him dealing with this realization. My biggest problem with him though is in TGH after the portal stone trip and after the horn is blown when he goes and gets a branch for the banner, out of all three of them he seemed to actually have started accepting the fact that they had a duty. Where is he now in that regard? A lot further away from where he was at the end of TGH as far as I can tell. That's sad.

 

The fact is though, Perrin can and will redeem himself in this book (just an opinion). He's going to hit his high and in fact, along with Mat he's one of the PoV's I'm most looking forward to in TOM. He has a lot of things he needs to take care of before the climax of TOM and half of them nobody really has any idea about what they are besides Galad. How Perrin progresses or doesn't progress will make or break him in TOM; and it's a safe bet that he will actually progress and it will be heaps and bounds.

[Jong]

I am going to cut against the grain here and say that Perrin has not been stagnant since LOC. He has actually changed substantially in that he is much darker and more conflicted than he was previously.

[sdelu]

I think Perrin has a undiagnosed mental illness.

He attention to detail, his lack of awareness of himself, he inabilty to cope with change, over thinking every little thing, trying to force things instead of moving with the changed, his lack of emotion when his family died, being unable to cope in social situations, his temper, reliance on Faile, focusing on one thing, Faile's capture, to the deterrence of all others

 

I do think that there might be something to this, certainly. He definitely does not strike me as "normal" and while he may be the most realistic character in many ways, he is also the one that exhibits the most instability. It's almost as if he's bipolar, one moment the calm, deliberate, gentle lad, the other chopping peoples feet of, charging into battle all willy-nilly, sacrificing people to no good purpose.

 

I guess you could blame that on the wolf-brother thing, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

 

I am going to cut against the grain here and say that Perrin has not been stagnant since LOC. He has actually changed substantially in that he is much darker and more conflicted than he was previously.

 

He is definitely of a darker mood in the latter books. I don't think that he hasn't grown as a character as much as I think he's just overly obsessed with Faile, to the point that it is just really annoying to read. Even when he's becoming this brooding, almost "evil" person, he's always just nonstop thinking about her. My reading experience went something like the following: "Okay, enough already, stop thinking that you'll die if you can't get her back, or that you'll turn to the Dark One to do it. Just go kill the Shaido already. Okay, yes, we're getting there... no. NO. NO! I don't care if you think she'll smell jealous, damnit!"

 

Actually, I think Perrin turning to the Dark One would have made a MUCH more interesting storyline. One of the three ta'veren, who needs to be there to save Rand, turns to the DO for help getting his wife back when Rand refuses to lend him troops. Mmm....

 

Oh well.

[Vayna]

His obsession with his wife might be part of his connection to the wolves... They mate for life after all. And they can follow a course if action very single-mindedly. I think some facets of his personality are definately more wolf-like than before.

[Jong]

I don't think that he hasn't grown as a character as much as I think he's just overly obsessed with Faile, to the point that it is just really annoying to read. Even when he's becoming this brooding, almost "evil" person, he's always just nonstop thinking about her. My reading experience went something like the following: "Okay, enough already, stop thinking that you'll die if you can't get her back, or that you'll turn to the Dark One to do it. Just go kill the Shaido already. Okay, yes, we're getting there... no. NO. NO! I don't care if you think she'll smell jealous, damnit!"

 

Actually, I think Perrin turning to the Dark One would have made a MUCH more interesting storyline. One of the three ta'veren, who needs to be there to save Rand, turns to the DO for help getting his wife back when Rand refuses to lend him troops. Mmm....

 

Oh well.

 

Yep, it was pretty annoying for sure. And it just seemed to take so long for the rescue to play out.

 

Perrin never even asked Rand for help. That was the aspect of it that made the least sense to me. He went after her completely by himself with limited resources with out asking for aid.

[Sid]

Of course it occurred to Perrin to ask Rand for help, but his mission was a secret. He wasn't supposed to return or even risk sending a messenger until he had the Prophet and his Dragonsworn in tow.

[DPT24]

I really didn't mind the Perrin storyline too much. To me, the only thing is, and this goes with all the storylines between book 8-11 is it would have been nice if they didn't all take 3 books to finish. I guess I wish he'd have gotten the Aiel who were already hunting the Shadio and a few more Ash'Amen to join him, and maybe sent the prophet to Rand while doing so, which would have sped up his storyline. Plus, I don't think Mat or Rand would have acted much differantly, Rand would (will) be driven insane if any of the four people with his bond dies, and I'm sure Mat would worry just as much about Tuon; well, maybe not quite as obssessed, but still, it wouldn't have been good.

[haloun]

i have always wondered what hopper meant when he says perrin is in the wolf dream too strongly. it starts when perrin first goes after faile with the hedgehog ter'angreal, I wondre if that is why he has so much trouble dealing and coping and accepting his fate. on the one hand he is supposed to be part wolf and enter the wolf dream but on the other hand when he tries to be wolflike even the wolves say he is too far into it and too strong to be there. just a thought on why he has bees stagnant. it is very much like what happened with the hedgehog TA he just keeps getting almost there and then has to start over. he needs to break his chains and get a move on. btw i am a major perrin fan but the faile POV's almost make me want to hurl sometimes.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all...

Regarding Perrin: Capering Capers, your idea that Perrin simply ask Elias how he managed to be a wolf brother without becoming a wolf is a good one. But you have forgotten that this series is The Wheel of Time, where characters NEVER communicate whats important with each other.

 

Sdelu: I also think Perrin has a chance of going over to the Great Lord of the Dark; weve all recalled the numerous times where he said hed make a deal with the Dark One to get Faile back; that implies he is not all that averse to dealing with the epitome of Evil. Maybe, he WILL make that offer, if he is driven to it.

 

Padan Fain spoke of his ability to sense Darkfriends, even those not yet Darkfriends, but merely thinking about it. I wonder what Mr. Fain would make of Perrin Aybara.

 

Sincerely, Wheel of Thyme

[Sid]

I wonder what Mr. Fain would make of Perrin Aybara.

 

Given recent developments, I assume it would be a zombie wolfbrother.

[The Fisher King]

I wonder what Mr. Fain would make of Perrin Aybara.

 

Given recent developments, I assume it would be a zombie wolfbrother.

 

That would be 77 Million kinds of AWESOMNESS!!! !!! !!!

 

 

Fish

[theblacksmith]

One of the things that I and I'm sure most of you love about this series is the detail and believability of the characters. This being said, I find it humorous that people complain about characters being flawed. I know, based on an individual readers taste, that some parts of this series are dry and hard to read. (I have a hard time reading the whole Tanchico episode, not mention most of Elayne’s arc.)

 

People read this series and see a traditional hero like Rand and can easily identify with him and see where he fits in the story. They see Mat, the charming rascal and can indentify with him and see where he fits. Perrin is a somewhat different story. People see his cool ability and his prowess in battle and want him to be a hero and leader like Rand. I think that this is where a lot of people do Perrin an injustice.

 

Both Mat and Rand have a natural flare, charisma or however you want to say it. Both though reluctant to assume the mantel of hero, have developed and grown into it. Perrin from the first that we meet him has always been self effacing. From TEotW he moves with care through crowds and thinks things through before speaking as not to hurt anyone. He has always been the most deliberate and least ambitious of the three.

 

He has some of the best attributes that are spread through the other characters in the series. He is brave like Rand and many others. He is a good tactician like Mat and learns quickly. He does what is right with regard for the cost like Galad. He cares for his people like Elayne. There are many others.

 

His one main detractor is his reluctance to face his fate. This I think is what makes him human and believable. How many people can you think of, that have fame and celebrity thrust upon them and remain who they were before? This very reluctance allowed him alone of the three, to go back to the Two Rivers. This humility and yearning for a normal life is what makes him into a great leader of men in the darkest times. He is genuine and solid and loves with every fiber of his being. Yes he loves Faile, but he loves his friends nearly as much. Look at what he did for Hopper, mere days after meeting him and gaining his abilities. This is what all of those following him see. This is also the main source of his conflict with the wolf in him.

 

STICKY Vote

[Naffy]

Read TSR Perrin and then read Faile rescue Perrin. There is no debating the fact that this character has regressed.

[aunt_pol]

To be honest, for a fella that spends so much time thinking about every flipping thing he does, I for the life of me can't see why Perrin didn't send Grady and Neald off to round up a few more Ashaman/men once he realised they were gonna have to get stuck in at Malden. I mean, if your wife's kidnapped, wouldv you not ask your powerful friend for help, rather than spend three books on it?!

[Naffy]

To be honest, for a fella that spends so much time thinking about every flipping thing he does, I for the life of me can't see why Perrin didn't send Grady and Neald off to round up a few more Ashaman/men once he realised they were gonna have to get stuck in at Malden. I mean, if your wife's kidnapped, wouldv you not ask your powerful friend for help, rather than spend three books on it?!

My thoughts exactly. We all know that lack of communication is a WOT staple, however.

[Jong]

Of course it occurred to Perrin to ask Rand for help, but his mission was a secret. He wasn't supposed to return or even risk sending a messenger until he had the Prophet and his Dragonsworn in tow.

 

He was also supposed to bring the prohpet back to Rand alive, and sooner rather than later. Perrin blew off his mission from the moment Faile was kidnapped.

[DPT24]

Not to mention, Rand had a lot of the Aiel hunting the Shadio when they disapeared, I'm sure they'd have been happy to come to Perrin's aid. As I've said before, not getting the Ash'Amen and Aiel to help him is the only thing I hold against Perrin. Honestly, Elayne, Mat,and Perrin's storlyines could have been solved a lot faster. One of the 3 Aes Sedia with Mat learns traveling, takes him to Murandy, where he and the Band unite. Then, he hear's about what happened to Faile, and he and the band join Perrin, + Aiel + Ash Amen which means Faile is rescued quickly. Then, Mat and Perrin go to Andor, and help Elayne, because while she doesn't want Aiel or Bashere to help her, Mat and Perrin are both from Andor, and especially for Perrin (who's lord of the Two Rivers) it wouldn't have made her look like a puppet the same way. And, of course, Mat and Perrin's forces would have destroyed the rebels quickly. That would have taken 2 books (WH, CoT). Now how Tuon would have fitted in, that's the only flaw to this plan. Tuon + Elayne + Faile... okay, maybe that explains why it didn't happen that way...

[Bob T Dwarf]

One of the things I like most about this place is the stuff other people come up with. This thread has now given me the third awesome thing somebody else has had to say about the series.

 

The first two are the most cogent criticisms of the series as-a-whole that I've ever seen:

1. Too many adjectives, not enough verbs;

2. Too much faffing about with frocks.

 

And now number three - the most cogent criticism of Perrin yet:

3. ... no progression beyond 'Save me Jeebus before I bite someone.'

 

It isn't that Perrin lacks believability, it's that he's so pedestrian. He whines. He cries. He obsesses. About the same things. Over and over and over and... well, you get it.

 

The whole series has become a trite parody of itself. Almost any given scene you can predict what will be written - and scenes involving Perrin, most of all.

 

He NEEDS to get awesome, quick. Otherwise he's been a total waste of space and time.

[Balise]

This is my first post as I dont really bother to sign up to boards I read, but the buildup to ToM has me wanting to contribute a bit...

 

Perrin from my perspective has been on the path to being a King/Ruler. He is the only character out of the three that has been shaping up to being someone who will care for his people and think about them as a 'family'. What will happen in ToM I am not sure, but I am willing to bet that the Two Rivers as a region gets into a political struggle with Andor/Elayne/Morgase as they have been so long on their own, fought off invaders, have a Queen as a vassal, and provided shelter/safety to over 100k people (not including the refugees that pour over the mountain to the small villages of the Two Rivers.

 

Factors leading to this:

 

From the Prologue

1. Perrin is forging something but he cannot focus, does not know what he needs to build, and keeps on sliding back into worry about those that are dead and those that are alive, but possibly slipping from him.

a) my first thought was he has to forge his people into a force to go against the shadow

b) second thought was that he has to forge all his followers/peoples into a nation that will be a key to stability with the Seanchan and the rest of the nations

2. He is STILL not home and/or with Rand, his storyline is specifically avoiding this until he reconciles with his responsibilities and who he is.

a) This points to his responsibilities being outside of Rand and Matt (ie. Two Rivers and Ghealdan (sp?))

b) His struggle with his current surroundings (people, events, wolves) centers on him personally and the Two Rivers/ people he takes care of.

 

From the series

1. Two Rivers people have never really known a ruler for generations (quoted several times in the book)

2. They were left alone to survive the timeperiod encompassing the whole series

3. Changed from stubborn farmers to a proud, strong, loud, and forceful people that are willing to fight to the death for their own

4. Morgase is in the company of Perrin and has been able to judge and measure him for the last few books

5. Elayne is finally free to consolidate Andor and reach out to put her claims to Cairhien (sp?) before the last battle

a) This possibly could lead to a merging of the nations, but I would rather think they would still be two and Elayne would just secure more area for both.

6. Perrin has a Queen as a vassal and so there is no easy political way for the Two Rivers/Perrin to submit to Elayne's rule.

7. Perrin embracing or running from leadership has been a central struggle for him and he is the last holdout of the three characters to give in, this indicates he will also have a very heavy load when the full weight is presented to him.

8. Faile's family history (still partial mystery)

9. Perrin lost his family and so now finds it when he becomes ruler of the Two Rivers.

 

 

Through this prologue and the hints that have been given out for ToM I am more and more inclined to think that Perrin will finally be attained as a King or at least a Lord of an independent state and he will continue to forge his people/community into a safe place to live, but one that will also be a key for future battles.

[TheAngryDruid]

While I have been frustrated with Perrin's arc at times, I do feel the need to rise in defense of Perrin, and would also like to comment on the Prologue. Prologue first.

 

Three things jumped out.

 

First, hammer or the axe. Perrin mistakenly thought that throwing the axe and carrying the hammer (being a blacksmith) was a choice he already made after torturing and maiming his Aiel prisoner. It is not. The choice is philosophical, and Hopper showed him his error. What does it matter if you bash someone with a hammer or slice them with an axe or impale them with a spear? It is all violence (the axe).

 

Perrin most often cites necessity (or duty) for his resorting to violence (or arguing against the Way of the Leaf or the Hammer). For much of the book, he has probably been correct. But, maybe he can still do what he needs to do if he chooses the hammer. Maybe he CAN'T do what he needs to do if he wields the axe?

 

I think Perrin going leafy is still a possibility.

 

Second, the dream that was weird. Smells of Moggy or Lanfear to me.

 

Third, the forging. What will he mold his followers into? What will he make? This IS progression in and of itself. Rand has been self consciously single minded basically since LoC. No longer caring what he left behind or how he won, only IF he won. Substitute "Last Battle" for "Faile" and there is remarkable similarity. Yes, I know the magnitude isn't the same, but the point here is progression. Rand, via his talk with Tam and his epiphany, is back on track, and Perrin is also now on this track. Mat is a military man, his focus is more narrow.

 

This dovetails nicely with an overall defense of Perrin, but this post has been too long already. So I'll just say briefly to the haters.

 

Perrin has had his whole family (and nearly all his relatives) murdered by Fain/Trollocs. None of the other main characters have suffered even close to such a loss. Only Elayne, Gawyn, ,and Galad even come close. And one lost his mind as a result. Plus, Perrin has had close friends (Aram and Two River lads) die by the decisions he's made. And he's had to live with them afterward. In short, no main character has lost so much, in terms of kith and kin, as Perrin.

 

Moreover, Perrin is the one character who actually has lost him mind. Rand has worried about it. And still does. Mat bemoans what he can't remember (speaking in 'old' Tongue, or his holes via the dagger). But Perrin is the one who has actually lost his mind (killing the Whitecloaks in EoTW) and killed men as a result. I'd wager most of the haters have never seriously faced the prospect of losing their minds (Alzheimer's, etc). A terrifying prospect.

 

Third, as others have pointed out. He's also had the most obvious OUTWARD changes to his appearance (before Rand lost his hand, at least). And even that, though a loss, is something within the realm of everyday experience, a man losing a limb or hand. But Perrin's eyes are yellow. Totally strange. It screams "otherness" in a way none of the other characters have to deal with, and for the most self-conscious and introspective of the lot.

 

Last, Perrin has made plenty of progress, but he also was furthest along at the start. Certainly leagues ahead of Mat. Dealing with Faile can be problematic. And the lack of communication isn't Perrin's fault, it is the author's (and all the characters display it). Progress: certainly through LoC we have no argument from anyone? Yes?

 

Perrin accepted the fake fight to go get Masema. He has won over the Wise Ones, and to a degree the AS in camp. And Berelain. And Alliandre. And Tylee. No small feat, that. He made a call to make a deal with someone he opposes to get the job done (Galad gets plaudits, but Perrin gets none?). And it may pay off HUGE before it is over.

 

Over the last couple of books, Egwene and Nynaeve have made some serious strides forward. Siuan and Bryne did as well last time. Rand had a breakthrough. Other AS are starting to act rationally (Silviana, Cadsuane, Teslyn, Saerin, Seaine, the Ajah Heads, Pevara, etc). Mat made good progress last book. Gosh, even Faile (via her perspective as a captive) and Gawyn are making progress. I see more in this book. Galad, Lan, and Perrin have all shown signs, and this is just the prologue. I'll bet Aviendha makes some as well.

 

Tuon has the farthest to come, however. Not too sure about her?

 

Sorry for the length, I guess I found myself a more impassioned Perrin defender than I thought.

[Jong]

Perrin has had his whole family (and nearly all his relatives) murdered by Fain/Trollocs. None of the other main characters have suffered even close to such a loss. Only Elayne, Gawyn, ,and Galad even come close. And one lost his mind as a result. Plus, Perrin has had close friends (Aram and Two River lads) die by the decisions he's made. And he's had to live with them afterward. In short, no main character has lost so much, in terms of kith and kin, as Perrin.

 

Moreover, Perrin is the one character who actually has lost him mind. Rand has worried about it. And still does. Mat bemoans what he can't remember (speaking in 'old' Tongue, or his holes via the dagger). But Perrin is the one who has actually lost his mind (killing the Whitecloaks in EoTW) and killed men as a result. I'd wager most of the haters have never seriously faced the prospect of losing their minds (Alzheimer's, etc). A terrifying prospect.

 

I think nearly being forced to strangle the person you love and nearly kill them is orders of magnitude worse than having all of your family killed while you are in another country. But I agree Perrin has had it pretty bad compared to most of the rest of the charachters.

 

Perrin has not lost his mind. Rand is the one who has been hearing voices. Rand has been sooo much crazier than Perrin.