Channelers and the collar

[gambril]

So I was wondering and read that the adam basically forms a circle the same as when Aes Sedai link and form circles. I'm not a circle guru but a woman can't be forcibly removed from a circle right? What I'm getting at is, if two woman are linked or in a circle, if one or both were collared wouldn't the collar be inneffective? The collar can't form the circle to give the suldam control if a channeler's already in a circle, so if I'm right and I'm pretty sure I am, I wonder if Egwene and the Aes Sedai can realize this and use it. Obviously the simplest example would just be to let them collar whatever channeler they wanted as long as they're already in a circle it won't matter and the adam becaomes useless.

[Byzantine279]

Wow, interesting idea. How did none of the rest of us think of this? (i dont believe anyone else has mentioned if they have, anyway). It does seem to be a good idea, we know circles can hold no matter where the channeler is, so theoretically you could send an aes sedai who is linked into the middle of an army of sul'dam and they would be utterly powerless to do anything. But, this assumed that the ter'angreal works like that, we know that you also cannot forcibly link with someone, yet the a'dam allows that. So it depends on if the original maker (all others are simply copies) took that possibility into account, but from every account of what Seanchan was like then it is quite possible the idea of a channeler already being in a link never crossed her mind.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Oh, I like this idea, mayhap someone should pose it to Mr. Sanderson at one of his signings. I think the closest we've come to any mention of this is in LoC (if memory serves) when Elayne is wearing the A'dam linked to Moghedien when the bubble of evil struck, and Nyneave sees here taking it off just before she enters the circle, then wonders what might have happened if she hadn't. Sort of the opposite end of the stick from you're idea, but it may even be a hint at that as a solution. Deserves some more though I believe...

[gambril]

After thinking about this some more today I did send an e-mail to Brandon about it just asking whether Robert Jordan or Brandon realize this or know it. I strongly suspect that they are aware of this and if so, I would tend to believe it would be used. Imagine the impact it would have to render the adam useless, perhaps the big unnoticed thing? It very well could be in my opinion. I'd give it a 50/50 chance assuming they (Robert and Brandon) are in fact aware of this loophole in the adam. I mean last book in TGS didn't Cadsuane try to figure out how to defeat the adam and then Egwene's thoughts during the raid that the adam prevented linking leaves me wondering to say the least ;p.

 

Edit: Thinking about it, we know that all channelers will be at the Last Battle and most likely Aes Sedai and damane will be in contact during this period. Previously I could never really fathom how for any reason Egwene or any Aes Sedai would even come within sight of a suldam, but now knowing this...if they discover this then they can laugh (or sniff if you're female ;p) in all suldam and Seanchan faces. Not to mention that this would make keeping channelers collared near impossible in the future.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

If you don't get a timely response from Mr. Sanderson, or if he RAFO's you and you just want to poke him again and earn me another RAFO card, I should be at the midnight release (baring all four limbs being torn off and my tongue ripped out to prevent me from crawling there, I will be) so I can pose it to him directly if you want.

[spoke]

Some points to add.

 

The link created by the Adam is the same type of link that the Black Ajah used to torture information out of the Amerlyn that was killed in New Spring.

 

Other strange things can happen when the wrong type of link occurs (Like when the Emperess (may she live forever) likes to have sport with court members by having the male members of the court try on the Adam (they both die screaming). -- Similar examples of related issues are when the burned out woman tried to wear the Adam, or the pain felt when Mogehiden was freed by Aar'angar, or Rand trying to removing the Adam from the Seanchan woman after he had sex with Avienda.

 

Further we do know that the forced link can be forcibly removed (ex:when Nynaeve opens the collar on the Seanchan woman in TGH).

 

So this linking method proposed could have some very strange results.

 

Some of those results could be:

Death (like when a man is linked)

Pain/Sickness (like when the collared person tries to channel w/o permission)

being forcibly removed by severing of the link to the circle

burnout

gaining control of the entire circle not just the one collared.

 

But this is an interesting discussion.

[haloun]

it is not impossible to force someone into a circle, there is a quote from one of the forsaken I think it was sammael, about how "these untrained girls" had found some interesting things that were not even considered possible in the AoL specifically the warder bond and involuntary circles, at first i thought of the adam, but then in book 11 it is clearly stated that it is a method used to torture the BA members when they are called before the supreme council. an interesting thought would be bringing in suldam since they are almost on the brink of holding the OP anyways when they are linked with the damane through the adam.

[Byzantine279]

haloun, he didn't say to create a link, but rather to use a link to prevent the creation of another link. And it may indeed be possible to use a pre-existing link to render the a'dam a useless piece of metal.

[Sharaman]

(Using "normal" circle below to denote a circle of saidar channelers without a'dam involved, "semi-normal" to denote a normal circle + an a'dam user).

We know the a'dam can collar women already holding the power (Nyn- Moggy, admittedly in TAR).

Strength in the power of the damane doesn't make a difference. she could even be using a powerful ang'real and she can still be collared.

Therefore, somebody leading a normal circle can in theory, be collared for a sul'dam to take control.

Any circle can have only one leader.

The sul'dam must lead in a forced circle.

So it should be possible for a sul'dam to lead a "semi-normal circle", perhaps by allowing a normal circle to form and then collaring the leader.

A circle cannot have an a'dam in it unless the sul'dam is the leader.

A circle cannot work if two a'dams are introduced because of leadership-conflict between a'dam.

(Egwene exploited this when counter-attacking the Seanchan raiders - they couldn't expand their circles.)

We've also seen that it's possible for a single sul'dam (Tuon) to wear two a'dams at the same time and thus lead two separate forced circles.

She may even be capable of handling two semi-normal circles simultaneously, by using two a'dam on two separate circle leaders?

Is there an overload factor in that the a'dam can't handle more than x amount of the power? We've never seen any such hint.

 

Extrapolating, if Nyn and Elayne wearing an a'dam controlling Moggy had been linked in a circle, either the circle would break up, maybe break up catastrophically with everybody burnt out, or Elayne would have to take control to make it work.

Incidentally both Egwene and Cadsuane have experimented to try and escape the a'dam unsuccessfully. Is there something, somewhere in the middle of all this circle-related speculation that suggests an escape route?

[RDDK]

I never really understood the a'dam, as I don't think it logically makes sense to do what it does. My problem is with the relationship between Sul'dam and Damane. I understand how the first Sul'dam and Damane worked, since they were trained channelers, and so the Sul'dam knew which weaves she wanted, and how to weave them. But now it makes no sense. How can a new Sul'dam make a Damane do anything when she doesn't really know what a weave is, or what it might do?

 

It could be that there's a whole secret school going on in the background, one that RJ never left a hint about, (Especially to explain all the new Randland Damane who have never channeled before and don't know weaves, are able to expertly channel because Sul'dam, who can't see weaves, mind control them into doing it.)

[Sharaman]

I never really understood the a'dam, as I don't think it logically makes sense to do what it does. My problem is with the relationship between Sul'dam and Damane. I understand how the first Sul'dam and Damane worked, since they were trained channelers, and so the Sul'dam knew which weaves she wanted, and how to weave them. But now it makes no sense. How can a new Sul'dam make a Damane do anything when she doesn't really know what a weave is, or what it might do?

 

It could be that there's a whole secret school going on in the background, one that RJ never left a hint about, (Especially to explain all the new Randland Damane who have never channeled before and don't know weaves, are able to expertly channel because Sul'dam, who can't see weaves, mind control them into doing it.)

 

There's lot about the entire damane-sul'dam -a'dam testing system that doesn't make logical sense. Not least 1) the fact that with hundred of thousands of women including sul'dam being repeatedly tested until they're 25, that it isn't common knowledge among Seanchan that some sul'dam can become damane 2) damane, who are trained to find channelers, don't glom to the fact that sul'dam can potentially channel - even AS captured as damane didn't (Except for Egwene).

 

But this particular thing can perhaps be explained by damane being able to see each others' weaves. One damane knows how to weave something; another one who's told to weave that, can watch her and copy off.

[nnokwoodeye]

A Sul'dam can see weaves when she is linked with a Damane, so she can learn how to make them by looking at a more experienced Sul'dam.

[haloun]

@ torn shadow, i was not implying that it wouldnt, however it does create complications when it comes to forcibly removing the link as well. anyways my thought was more on the can we bring a suldam into a circle instead question, not the can we force someone out of a circle question. however i dont think we could, egwenes thoughts on the linking is that it makes you that much more powerful and so they are able to use more of the power, and pout forth a more united front, i dont think it would actually be a way to defeat the adam, especially since the adam takes over immediate control of the person, any time we have seen it placed on someone they immediately lose the source, and then are "taught" not to take it again. the first and immediate result of being collared is to lose the source. that would be extremely problematic for the people in the link and it definately needs to be explored, but i dont think it would keep them from being collared.

[Byzantine279]

They lose the source because the one directing the link is forcing them to stop holding the power. The question is can an a'dam preempt an already existing connection or would the original head of the circle remain, and if the original remains then the suldam cannot force anything to happen through the a'dam because the connection that it normally creates would fail.

[RDDK]

It must be worth lots of Ji to walk right up to a channeler who is linked and in a circle, and collar her without dying first.

 

Thinking on it, I don't believe it would end the circle, if the collared one isn't leading it. The collar redirects the control of Saidar to the Su'dam; but a channeler who is linked and given control over to another, does not control her own connection to Saidar. She can not release until the leader gives the connection back or she becomes so drained she collapses (such as Nyneave at Shadar Logoth, though I'm not sure anyone else has ever channeled that much in the history of the world.)

[Lambada]

Thinking on it, I don't believe it would end the circle, if the collared one isn't leading it. The collar redirects the control of Saidar to the Su'dam; but a channeler who is linked and given control over to another, does not control her own connection to Saidar. She can not release until the leader gives the connection back or she becomes so drained she collapses (such as Nyneave at Shadar Logoth, though I'm not sure anyone else has ever channeled that much in the history of the world.)

Sounds reasoning there I think.

 

I wonder what would happen to everyone else if the leader of the circle was collared? The uncontrolled releasing of the Power might burn them out if it was a strong enough circle.