Elyas connection to Lan

[TreeJoe]

My original point, and a point worth repeating, is this:

 

Lan was raised in Fal Moran and had "the best teachers" which raised him as a diademed battle lord of the borderlands.

 

He's been explained as having taken in learnings about the Blight with mother's milk (sadly, not his mother's). Learning the sword and combat instead of playing with toys.

 

We know that around the age of 25, he was leading men in battle for the Aiel War. At that time, he was a seasoned and renowned warrior among borderlanders, Aiel, and elsewhere. He was already known to have courted death in the Blight.

 

He's bonded by Moiraine, fine. He spends time sparring with Warders either outside of the tower or inside, also fine.

 

But in the tEotW, he describes Elyas as "teaching him much about the Blight, and about this [touching his sword" (I'm paraphrasing, but the wording is almost exact).

 

Such a description, coming from Lan, almost certainly means that Elyas was one of his teachers at Fal Moran.

 

Elyas was not one of his bodyguards from Malkier, as the last of his bodyguards died in New Spring.

 

Therefore, I submit that Elyas was one of Lan's original teachers growing up, that they have a close bond, and my hope is that we will get to interact soon.

[Auld Manriva]

Agreed.

 

Siuan says she received only two messages from Moiraine since Moiraine left the Tower, but she also mentions extensive planning. Given that this is a top secret mission and the only method of instantaneous communication involved speaking face to face, that would suggest that Moiraine returned to the Tower at least once after the events of New Spring.

 

Yeah.. I'm not sure what Terez' inference was with that quote and no comment, but in the context of that meeting, I take it to mean that since her most recent departure from the Tower, there has only been the two messages. Certainly not that there has been twenty years of no communication other than those two or even regular correspondence by pigeon. I think Mo' and Lan were back and forth fairly regular, as mentioned above, for short periods.

 

Is it just me or does Mo' seem to be fairly up on the swirling currents of personal politics in the Tower. One does not get that from short coded messages tied to a flyin' rats' ankle IMHO. Or maybe I'm imagining things.

[Kaznen]

Three things proving she has been to the tower since she first left.

 

1. Her angreal- In the first three books she had an angreal. All the AS knew she had it and in tGH Suian said the Hall was mad that she had it and hadn't returned it. We have several examples of AS finding a angreal during their travels and not telling others about it. But because Mo's was common knowledge in the WT leads me to believe it was "check out" from the Hall like all ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal in there possesion. It is never explained what happened to the one she had, she just stopped using it and she had ample opportunity to get another one in Rhudean. In fact she left one for Lanfear to find. But she had to return to the tower to get that.

 

2. Her shawl- In tGH she put it when she was getting ready to answer the summons from the Amrilyn. She thought it was fortunate she pack it the last time she left the tower (didn't notice that until I typed it!); But in NS she left it behind when she escaped. She knew if she was seen with her shawl in a non-formal setting (like all new AS insist on wearing outside the tower) the Amrilyn would know she was taking off, which would damage the WT's plan to make her Queen of Carihein.

 

3. One of the captured BA AS- In the beginning of tSR Egwene and Nyneave were questioning the BA they captured in the Stone. When Mo and Elyane return one of the BA (don't remember which) said Mo was thought of an outsider among the AS because she never stayed in the WT long after she would return.

 

So we know she made multiple trips to the tower or else she wouldn't have gain the reputation for the Hall to let her have an angreal, even with Suian's support (I don't think she was well like by a number of Blues Mo and Lelaine never cared for one another after all) and there was also the political fallout with Caddy and Elaida (I think Caddy told sources in the WT she was wandering around by herself and Caddy tried to rein her in) and Elaida just didn't like her, and as the advisor to the queen of the most WT friendly country she had political capitol in the tower, excluding her strength.

 

But she still gained a reputation among the AS in general. It seem more AS knew of her then she knew of AS (back to when she was going to the see Suain in tGH, she only knew half of the AS part of the Mother's entourage and then most only by name, nothing about them) but most knew about her. If she was traveling around the Randland for twenty years she wouldn't have much face time with the general AS population and would only be known about by the blues, and then very little.

 

So Lan had ample time to hang with the other warders (and he knew Suain personally also) that he could have met Elyas. But I still think Elyas was one of Lan's Malkier teachers.

[Sagacious Lu]

My understanding was that Moiraine (and Lan) did return to the Tower at least once or twice after she skipped town in NS. If so she would have compounded the problem by disappearing without explanation again. Lan very well might have met Elyas at the Tower. As well-trained and experienced as Lan was it still seems likely that one of the older warders was able to teach him a lot. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation but I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Elyas knew Lan as a very young man, or even as a child.

[MagnusDahlerNorling]

Actually, it is kind of accepted knowledge that Elyas is Malkieri. After all he wears the hadori, and it may have been talked about more in KoD, but I don't recall the details.

 

And no, he is not Lan's father. Lan's father was the King of Malkier, and was killed. ;)

 

I find it likely as well that Elyas was one of the guardsmen who brought baby Lan to safety. He must have been pretty young at that time, though.

[TreeJoe]

Hey Maginor,

 

Elyas wears the hadori? I didn't see that anywhere, I must've missed that if it's true...

 

And I'm fairly certain New Spring confirms that everyone of Lan's bodyguards had died by the end of that book :)

[Terez]

He doesn't wear a hadori; his hair is 'gathered at the base of his neck' with a cord; the hadori is a braided leather cord tied around the forehead.

[Sagacious Lu]

He doesn't wear a hadori; his hair is 'gathered at the base of his neck' with a cord; the hadori is a braided leather cord tied around the forehead.

 

Exactly- descriptions from Wolfbrother (EotW) and The Hook (NS), and Bukama was the last survivor of the men who carried Lan out of Malkier, also from The Hook.

[Suttree]

I'm suggesting that the Tower knows the Blight even better than his Malkieri and Shainari teachers. Do you find it that hard to believe? AS have resources that others do not.

 

 

Not a chance, Aes Sedai are shown time and time again to not know nearly as much as they think they do. Just plain fact that the Malkieri stood face to face with the shadow without giving an inch since The War of the Hundred Years. Nearly 1,000 years fighting the blight as a way of life. The men who trained Lan were the 20 best at the time. With the way the Aes Sedai failed Malkier in it's time of need and covered it up it is highly unlikely that they know more than Lan.

[Kaznen]

NS didn't say Burka(?) was the last survivor of the five, just the last with Lan. Like I said earlier, it could during Lan's youth Rina came around and ended up bonding Elyas. The 20 Lan's parents assigned to protect Lan were probably the twenty best soldiers/warriors in the King's elite guard, who were probably made of the best soldier/warriors in Malkier. And going by what Narshima said to Nyneave about his own military training in the borderlands before going to the BT a borderland warrior was very hard core indeed.

 

Any of the five survivors would have been prime candidates for warders, one got scooped up.

 

And I don't think Elyas not wearing the hadori means much for or against him being Malkier. The life he leads kinda had him leave the conventions of his earlier life behind. Remember he is still bonded as a warrior but he left behind his fan cloth cloak and sword.

 

And even if Lan had some "finishing" that needed to be done at the WT there was not a lot the other warders could have taught him about the blight he didn't already know. He started learning about the blight probably before they started teaching him the sword.

[Demiandre]

Kaznen, I seem to remember Lan thinking in NS that Bukama was the last of his teachers. The better and the older too.

[Kaznen]

Kaznen, I seem to remember Lan thinking in NS that Bukama was the last of his teachers. The better and the older too.

I am not disagreeing with that. But in NS it didn't say the other 4 were dead. And if Bukama was the oldest of them then it could have been Elyas was the youngest of the 5.

 

And if Elyas went off to be a warder he was no longer one of Lan's teachers.

[Terez]

NS didn't say Burka(?) was the last survivor of the five, just the last with Lan.

 

No offense, but if you can't even remember how to spell Bukama's name, then what makes you think you remember correctly?

 

TITLE - New Spring

CHAPTER: 1 - The Hook

 

When the nation of Malkier died, twenty men had been given the task of carrying the infant Lan Mandragoran to safety. Only five had survived that journey, to raise Lan from the cradle and train him, and Bukama was the last left alive. His hair was solid gray now, worn cut at the shoulder as tradition required, but his back was straight, his arms hard, his blue eyes clear and keen. Tradition infused Bukama. A thin braided leather cord held his hair back, resting in the permanent groove across his forehead it had made over the years. Few men still wore the hadori. Lan did. He would die wearing it, and go into the ground wearing that and nothing else. If there was anyone to bury him where he died. He glanced north, toward his distant home. Most people would have thought it a strange place to call home, but he had felt the pull of it ever since he came south.

[yoniy0]

Not a chance, Aes Sedai are shown time and time again to not know nearly as much as they think they do. Just plain fact that the Malkieri stood face to face with the shadow without giving an inch since The War of the Hundred Years. Nearly 1,000 years fighting the blight as a way of life. The men who trained Lan were the 20 best at the time.

Irrelevant. AS think too highly of themselves, true. But they also know things that no one else does. You can't dispute that. And while Malkier stood against the Shadow for 1k years, the WT has stood since the Breaking.

 

More to the point (after all, this isn't a competition between Malkier and the WT), Lan was indeed famous by the time NS started, but wasn't as experienced as he was by TEotW. For example, Ryne was better with the sword. That would strike me as a real oddity if Lan was already better than any Warder out there.

 

With the way the Aes Sedai failed Malkier in it's time of need and covered it up it is highly unlikely that they know more than Lan.

Again, I don't know what purpose this accusation serve, but it surly doesn't prove that the Tower lacks knowledge of the Shadow (or that its Warders lack knowledge of the sword).

[Auld Manriva]

There really is nothing to go on so far to determine precisely where Elyas is from. I'm not even sure that it matters. It's certainly fair to believe he's from the Borderlands. But there is no "proof" to make it a fact.

 

Lan says he "learned" about the Blight and The Sword from Elyas. A master craftsman/artisan of ANY skill admits, if only to himself, that he can learn from anyone, even a person of lesser ability otherwise the "master" is a fool.

 

Any gathering (even if only two) of American Frontiersmen, Indian Fighters, Sailors, Explorers etc. right to the present day included the sharing of knowledge. Heck, this holds true even among Truck Drivers for all love. My point is, it does not have to be a student/teacher experience to consider oneself learning from another.

 

The possibility exists that the passage means no more than that, or meant no more than that at the time of the writing. We know Lan has a history with Elyas, cares enough to ask after him when he learns Elyas lives and that is really all that matters.

 

The Where, the When, the How .... phawwww.. (to steal a CaddyShack expression) B)

[Suttree]

Irrelevant. AS think too highly of themselves, true. But they also know things that no one else does. You can't dispute that. And while Malkier stood against the Shadow for 1k years, the WT has stood since the Breaking.

 

More to the point (after all, this isn't a competition between Malkier and the WT), Lan was indeed famous by the time NS started, but wasn't as experienced as he was by TEotW. For example, Ryne was better with the sword. That would strike me as a real oddity if Lan was already better than any Warder out there.

 

 

Again, I don't know what purpose this accusation serve, but it surly doesn't prove that the Tower lacks knowledge of the Shadow (or that its Warders lack knowledge of the sword).

 

 

I was referring specifically to knowledge of the Blight. The Malkieri fought on its doorstep for those thousand years non stop. It would stand to reason with proximity to the blight and the amount of time fighting in it, that they have the most knowledge in that regard. There maybe a few greens that have fought there or a few browns that have a specialized study in it but we are talking about a whole nation whose only goal is to hold back the blight. In showing how the tower failed the Malkieri, I was just pointing out that whatever special "resources" you are claiming Aes Sedai have in this regard didn't help them save an entire nation.

[Kaznen]

In WH Alanna made a comment that I thought must of been an Afreal(her homeland) phrase "I'll wear bells in the blight before..."

 

The borderlanders have a very intimate relationship with the blight. We saw in tEofW how if you screw up once, you die. And borderland armies have had to go into the blight and and fight the shadow directly for thousands of years. I would place money that most of the non borderland greens haven't been in the blight let alone the general AS population.

[Paladin]

Does anyone know WHEN Elyas was bonded?

Lan grew up in the Borderlands being raised and trained by the 5 bodyguards but there is no indication that they were the only people he interacted with. And there are strong indications that Elyas is a borderlander, though he does not show any of the usal Borderland identifying customs (Bells on Braids, Hadori, Top Knot, etc.) in any of his appearances in the main novels or his Cameo in New Spring (Moiraine sees him sparring with other warders in the WT and his AS names him)

It makes sense for Lan being somewhat of a celebrity from birth to have been trained by many people in the borderlands. Elyas could very easily have spent a season or two in Fal Moran or anywhere else that Lan happened to be and trained him then before he became a warder.

 

There is no reason to believe that anyone who trained Elyas has to be one of the five suviving bodyguards. Lan did grow up in a fortress in Shienar where eveyone gets military training.

[Auld Manriva]

Here's something I found today. It doesn't shed light on Elyas and Lan, BUT it does show indisputably that Moiraine and Lan didn't wander about Randland for 20 years never hanging about the WT.

 

In tEotW near the end, I think the chapter was Into The Blight, Moiraine is telling them about what she'd found while interrogating Fain. This is a paraphrase; "Three years ago Padan Fain was visited by a Fade in Lugard and was taken to Shayol Ghul for the first time. THIS while I was still planning in Tar Valon."

 

That's it more or less.

[Terez]

What is supposed to make your quote better than the ones that have already been provided? It was established a while back that she has been to the Tower since New Spring.

[Auld Manriva]

What is supposed to make your quote better than the ones that have already been provided? It was established a while back that she has been to the Tower since New Spring.

 

Hey.. Take a chill pill oh mighty quote warrior.

 

If there WAS a quote about that then I must have missed it. I BEG your majesties pardon. I must have been under the mistaken thought that we'd done a lot of conjecture to that point and was merely attempting to post something I thought pertinent and helpful. It had not a bloody thing to do with being any better a hunk o'info than anyone else's .. Unlike some around these parts these days.

[Val Mickey]

Just because one has trained with the Marines doesn't mean that the SAS or the Sayeret Mat'kal have nothing new to teach.

 

On the other hand, it could be something like 'You know Lan, them Worms, they pee.'

[Terez]

What is supposed to make your quote better than the ones that have already been provided? It was established a while back that she has been to the Tower since New Spring.

 

Hey.. Take a chill pill oh mighty quote warrior.

 

If there WAS a quote about that then I must have missed it. I BEG your majesties pardon. I must have been under the mistaken thought that we'd done a lot of conjecture to that point and was merely attempting to post something I thought pertinent and helpful. It had not a bloody thing to do with being any better a hunk o'info than anyone else's .. Unlike some around these parts these days.

It was just the way you were all 'okay the argument is over now'. Pretty annoying, since it made it fairly obvious you weren't actually paying attention.

[yoniy0]

borderland armies have had to go into the blight and and fight the shadow directly for thousands of years.

Actually, Lan was very clear on the point that if you've allowed trollocs to force you into a fight in the Blight, you've already lost.

 

It was just the way you were all 'okay the argument is over now'. Pretty annoying, since it made it fairly obvious you weren't actually paying attention.

Not to offend, but I'm with Auld on that one. Up to that point, we had quotes attesting that she's been to the Tower. His quote gives us something more than that, that she's used the Tower as her home base, a place for planning. It makes it sound like she stayed there for long periods of time, not just the occasional visit.